Vasantha and Lalitha

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 27 Dec 2006, 23:41

This is prompted by two successive concerts featuring these 2 ragas and my guess being incorrect in both cases! The first was Sanjay at Kalarasana where I went with Lalitha for the Pallavi but it turned out to be Vasantha (at least as far as I could make out from the Pallavi line: "Seethamma Mayamma"). The second was TNS at the Academy, the next day where he elaborated Lalitha for Nannu Brovu Lailtha - this time I had expected Vasantha. These 2 "Mamis" have made my life miserable! A technical review brought to light the following:

1. Both have the same scales except that Vasantha omits the Rishabham on the way up
2. Lalitha is placed under Mela 15 even though the raga description I have says "D2". I myself could see it somewhere in the middle with a slightly gentler oscillation than in Vasantha
3. Some characteristic prayogas were employed in both cases mentioned above - e.g SMG,,RS; GMGRS...
4. It is difficult to make out the Rishabham on the ascent which would clearly establish Lalitha since it is very close to the Shadjam

What are the prayogas that clearly distinguish the two and how should one avoid pitfalls in expanding these beautiful, allied ragas?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Dec 2006, 23:49

vijay wrote:1. Both have the same scales except that Vasantha omits the Rishabham on the way up

Incorect. lalita has D1 only while vasanta has D2. The scale of lalita is straight both ways except that pancama is eschewed. Some people howver use ArOhaNa similar to vasanta in movement i.e SMGMDNS

2. Lalitha is placed under Mela 15 even though the raga description I have says "D2". I myself could see it somewhere in the middle with a slightly gentler oscillation than in Vasantha

This has already been answered. D1 and hence the 25th mELa. It is not in the middle. That would turn out to be neither lalita nor vasanta.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 28 Dec 2006, 00:06

vijay wrote:These 2 "Mamis" have made my life miserable!

Vijay,
You cracked me up!

Too bad you can't use the 'look' advocated and practised by Nick and Arasi on the two legged kind of these miseries!

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 28 Dec 2006, 03:12

Vijay, as drshrikaanth points out, the dhaivatam is the clincher here ... The big difference usually is in the gamakam for dha: D1 in Lalitha is a local oscillation around D1 whereas D2 in Vasantha is a much more expansive one as S->D or S->N->D or even M->S->D. Also, in less technical terms, the D1 in Lalitha will sound very haunting and usually very distinctive.

As a crude (but effective) test, when you hear an alapana in Vasantha and Lalitha and you know it is one of them but not which one, sing to yourself D1 and D2 as plain notes and then see which one sounds closer.

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 28 Dec 2006, 10:15

sItamma mAyamma is supposed to have been originally composed in lalitA and later was shifted to vasantA. Smt Vedavalli sings it in lalitA.

However, there is one school of thought which says that lalita is the present day vasanta and the vasanta has s n d m g m d m g r s for avarohanam citing eTla dorakitivO as the example kriti.

I dont right now remember as to what SSP says.

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 28 Dec 2006, 13:51

>> vasanta has s n d m g m d m g r s for avarohanam citing eTla dorakitivO as the example kriti.

What is the difference between this and the standard s n d m g r s. I mean, this avarohanam would permit the above one isn't it? An argument for the above constricted scale would be corroborated if ALL (or most) krithis had the prayoga is it not and not just one?

Are you referring to D as in D1 in the above scale(??)

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 28 Dec 2006, 23:21

Thanks all for your insights. The confusion arose because of the following references:

Quoting from Sambamoorthy (book 4) on Vasantha - "A closely allied raga is Lalitha. It is a janya of the same Melakartha, Suryakantham. Lalitha takes full fledged Chatussruthi Dhaivatha whereas Vasantha for the most part takes Trisruthi Rishabha"

And then there is this list of ragas on a spreadsheet compiled by Kumaran Santhanam and floating around on the web somtime back. It gives the arohanam avarohanam as follows: S R1 G3 M1 D2 N3 S - S N3 D2 M1 G3 R1 S but places the raga under Mela 15 (Doc, presume 25 was a typo), Mayamalavagowla!

Bharath compounds my confusion - assuming Sanjay subscribes to the Vedavalli school (that is, the Pallavi was actually in Lalitha and not Vasantha), it could very well explain my confusion...the TNS version sounded similar to Sanjay's rendition the previous day prompting me to vote for Vasantha. OTOH when Malladis sang vasantha at their concert the following day it was quite unambiguous. I suppose we will never know now!

I suppose I neet to watch out for the Dhaivatham more closely - it is usually quite unmistakable in Vasantha, I agree.

Shankar, the "look" is reserved for the artiste instead!!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Dec 2006, 00:00

There was an article on nannu brOvu lalita by Amy Ruth Catlin that appeared in the Journal of Music Academy long time ago. It deals with this subject. While the historical works were clear in assignment of lalita to mela 15, the confusion about the dhaivatam of lalita supposedly in the 20th century with contentious sessions at the Music Academy Experts Committee (1931). The general consensus then was lalita had only D1 and is mela 15, Vasanta is a bashanga raga of mela 15 with liberal use of D2. But this was apparently not satisfactory that subsequent discussions took place in 1939 where there were 10 variations to the same theme (!!!). Eventually they seemed to have arrived at the same earlier conclusion.

But what is surprising is that Smt. Vidya Sankar who learned from Syama Sastry II (great-grandson of SS) said (in an interview in 1977) that nannu brOvu lalita was taught to her with D2 by her guru, but that he was ambivalent about which dhaivatam was correct. She said that the composer had certainly sung the krithi with D2, which should be sung even higher than the normally "tivra chatusruthi dhaivatam". The version of this piece with D1 had appeared during her guru's lifetime she thought, creating confusion in the people. So this seems reverse to the other claim that lalita originally had D1, and that later owing to popularity of vasanta, many people started introducing D2 into it moving it closer to vasanta!! I had thought (like what drs posted) lalita has only D1 and any flavors with D2 are aberrations!

It should also be noted that RangarAmAnuja iyengar's book has nannu brOvu lalita in vasanta but in mela 21

!! Wild!

Arun

Jyothsna_music · Post by **Jyothsna_music** » 29 Dec 2006, 00:04

Hi,

This is indeed an interesting topic.

Vasantha : Surya kantha Janyam 17th melakartha.

sa ga ma da Ni sa is Arohanam and Sa ni da ma ga ri sa. is avarohanam

The swarasthanams are Anthargandharam, shuddha madhyamam, chathusruti daivatham , Kakali Nishadam. Coming to avarohanam shuddha rishabham exists.

Best example for Vasantha is varnam.You can understand the raga bhava and movement of notes more in that.

Lalitha : 15th Mayamalavagowla Janyam

But still there are two versions :

Arohanam of Lalitha is sa ga ma da ni sa
sa ni da ma ga ri sa

and the second is Sa ri ga ma da ni Sa
Sa ni da ma ga ri sa

For clarification of the second version of moorchana refer to Hiranmayeem Lakshmeem. You get the prayoga sa ri ga

Rgds
Jyothsna SaiRam

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 29 Dec 2006, 00:37

rbharath wrote:sItamma mAyamma is supposed to have been originally composed in lalitA and later was shifted to vasantA. Smt Vedavalli sings it in lalitA.

However, there is one school of thought which says that lalita is the present day vasanta and the vasanta has s n d m g m d m g r s for avarohanam citing eTla dorakitivO as the example kriti.

I dont right now remember as to what SSP says.

Also, there is line of thought implying Syama Sastry's lalitha (as in nannu brOvu lalitha) was sung with D2, as in present day vasantha too.

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 29 Dec 2006, 00:41

ramakriya wrote:Also, there is line of thought implying Syama Sastry's lalitha (as in nannu brOvu lalitha) was sung with D2, as in present day vasantha too.

-Ramakriya

Obvioulsy, I had not read arunk's post

on nannu brOvu lalita

In addition to Smt Vidya Sankar ( who I think would be representing the real intent of the composer given her background) , BMK also sings nannu brOvu lalita with chatushruti Dhaivata (D2)

-Ramakriya

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Dec 2006, 01:13

One more thing to add to the heap of 'so, what is it?'
Sanjay's essay of the rAgA at first made me think lalitha panchamam, then lalitha. I wondered if it could be vasantha after all, given the pallavi line! Then I said to myself, enjoy the music and let go of labels:)

thathwamasi · Post by **thathwamasi** » 02 Jan 2007, 09:08

The key in eleborating Lalitha is very simple....while singing an alapana, we should be mindful of the swaras at which we stop and eleborate...we must not stop at Ga-ndharam or Ni-shadam...that kinda spoils the jeevan of that Raagam..Its always good to elaborate on Ma-dhyamam, Dha-ivatam, Sha-djamam and Ma=dhyamam..if you notice in Hiranmayeem Lakshmeem...you can find Dikshithar ending phrases only the Sa-Ma or Dha.....Dikshithar's keerthanais are based on Alapana Pathadhi...so the best is to follow MD....

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 06 Jan 2007, 03:58

Today I was listening to a wonderful AlApana by DKJ and trying hard to identify it. While it had traces of MM gaula I knew it wasn't it. Finally I peeked at my ipod and saw it flashing laLita.
No where I got a hint it could be vasanta.
You can here it here..

http://www.sangeethapriya.org/Downloads ... lgjkm.html

oops sorry this site does not have alapana..

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 06 Jan 2007, 04:10

Suji Ram.

No lalita AlApane in the page you indicate?

Only rAga in the page (IMO) which could show up as traces of MMgouLa (because of it's dependency on the vakra prayOgas rather than lalitA in which the missing panchama won't be easily missed) is nIlAyatAkshi in paraj, but that has no AlApaen either ??

Are you referring to a different AlApane in some other page?

-Ramakriya

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 06 Jan 2007, 04:13

sorry, I have a different recording of lalita with Alapana.
Ill load it up later.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 06 Jan 2007, 04:49

Here it is (thanks to whoever uploaded first)

http://www.rogepost.com/n/7626490602

Lalita by DKJ.

I am still developing my skills in identifying rAgas. What I wrote above is what I felt. Vasanta I can identify unmistakably.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 06 Jan 2007, 05:24

Suji - you can detect the characteristic lalita raga prayoga right around the 30 seconds point in this recording.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 06 Jan 2007, 05:25

Suji Ram.

Thanks for the lalitA clip. As they say, it is just a question of more and more listening

as all rAga identification is pattern matching, and I am sure you'll get better as days go!

Another Lalita AlApane I would recomment listening to is Maharajapuram Ramachandran's at a Concert @Salt Lake City available on surasa.net

http://www.surasa.net/music/karnatak/#mrc

-Ramakriya

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 06 Jan 2007, 05:27

jayaram wrote:Suji - you can detect the characteristic lalita raga prayoga right around the 30 seconds point in this recording.

only today I got to learn lalita

a long way to go for me.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 06 Jan 2007, 05:37

Thanks Ramakriya for the extra dose of lalita.

I have already become acquianted with this raga now.
My question is why people are confusing it for vasanta.

A year back I could identify only a handful of ragas today it is bagful

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 06 Jan 2007, 11:48

ramakriya
rAmachandran singing lalitha gives me the best clarity, perhaps because of his sAreeram and his base voice.

On a general note, the way I try to distinguish lalitha from vasanta is to just hum an excellent tamil film song tuned by illayarAja and sung by SPB/chitra "Ithazhil Kadhai Ezhudhum Neramidhu" from the film unnAl mudiyum thambi.Sometimes film songs helps me a lot to spot it faster.

venkatpv · Post by **venkatpv** » 06 Jan 2007, 19:49

one of the best lalitha renditions... SSI and LGJ

http://www.rogepost.com/n/0822116408

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 06 Jan 2007, 23:28

Suji Ram wrote:TI have already become acquianted with this raga now.
My question is why people are confusing it for vasanta.

This is because (according to Smt. Vedavalli) there was confusion in nomenclature, where singing as vasanta (as we know it today) was labelled lalita, and also vice-versa. I dont know if that persists today, but apparently did during the first half of 20th century.

But i agree, if lalita is sung with D1 shown clearly, and similarly with vasanta with D2 then the differences should be clear, for us to establish their "melodic signatures" so to speak.

Arun

Jyothsna_music · Post by **Jyothsna_music** » 07 Jan 2007, 18:16

Also my points

1.Lalitha can be more and more identified with the bhava ofcourse,,,,,it doesnt mean vasantha doesnt.

2.Try to njoy Lalitha with shuddha daivatha and vasantha with chathusruthi daivatha that is best (if wanted lets people interchange the names).Lalitha is a beautiful raga, especially inthe lower octaves da sa ri gg...sa ri ga and gamada madani prayogas and higher octave phrases .

3. Listen to the song in Rudraveena picture.(in telugu).When the hero asks the heroine name.shewill sketch the Lalitha raga to convey that her name is lalitha and also the song Lalitha priya kamalam by KJyesudas.

They are my cents

Rgds
Jyothsna SaiRam

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 07 Jan 2007, 20:50

rajeshnat wrote:--

On a general note, the way I try to distinguish lalitha from vasanta is to just hum an excellent tamil film song tuned by illayarAja and sung by SPB/chitra "Ithazhil Kadhai Ezhudhum Neramidhu" from the film unnAl mudiyum thambi.Sometimes film songs helps me a lot to spot it faster.

Or another song in the same film ( a samayal song in ragamalika) which has the lyrics -- 'vasanta konjam rasam tha'

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Jan 2007, 20:56

"rAgam vasantA nAnum rucittup pArkka rasam tA".

By the way, this rudraveena film in telugu, is it the telugu remake of unnAl muDiyum tambi where the heroine's name is lalitakamalam and hence the song in lalitA.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Jan 2007, 21:41

Yes, they are the same movie

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/t ... name.6464/

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/t ... name.5549/

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 08 Jan 2007, 00:02

drshrikaanth wrote:"rAgam vasantA nAnum rucittup pArkka rasam tA".

interesting (and impressive) use of swarAksharas in that song

It is http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/mAI ... As1NMvHdW/

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 10 Jan 2007, 12:13

Take a look

http://www.hindu.com/ms/2007/01/02/stor ... 230500.htm

The 11-minute Lalitha alapana (by Ravikumar) stood distinct from its twin Vasantha, an example of the singers' depth of talent. Syama Sastri's `Devi Brova Samayamida' followed, brimming with bhava. :rolleyes:

what can we say about such 'review's? Just pray to Devi calling for help I suppose!

dEvi brOva samayamidE ati vEgamE vacci

-Ramakriya

Jigyaasa · Post by **Jigyaasa** » 10 Jan 2007, 12:42

I saw that too... And the very moment I read it, I decided not to read any more reviews of that guy cuz it's quite obvious he wasn't even listening to the song. In that case, he wouldn't have made such a blunder!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 10 Jan 2007, 15:45

This could well have been the result of careless editing - for example details of the kriti in Lalitha which may have followed the desccription of the alaapana could have been edited out...

Even if it was not, hardly surprising given the overall quality we've come to expect. Last year someone wrote something in the same paper about Deekshitar having composed many krithis on St Thyagaraja, citing it as an example of MD's regard for his peer!

Nevertheless, it has to be said that the Hindu seems to be getting a little more serious about the quality of its reviews

Vimala Bulusu · Post by **Vimala Bulusu** » 23 Jan 2007, 22:13

taruNamidE SivataruNimaNI composed by Shri Ogirala veera Raghava Sarma has evolved in two ragas lalitha and mohana

pallavi:
taruNamidE Siva taruNImaNI
thanavAdani brochuTaku neeku MaMchi ||taruNa||
anupallavi:
karuNAkari smarajanaka sahOdari nee
marugu jEriti dharmArdhakAmamOkShadAyini ||taruNa||
charaNaM:
bhaktajana Ghana vipattulaNachu
parASakti chamuMdEswari guhajananI
riktuni ghOrabhavAbdhi dATuTa ka
Saktuni parivasyAsaktuni rAghavuni brOchu ||taruNa||

I have rendered the song in the 2 rAgAs.
The song in rAg lalitha has been rendered now.
The song in rAg mohana was rendered 10 years back.

Your Down load link:
http://www.esnips.com/web/deviganasudha

Regards

B Vimala