Vidwans and lies

[Siva Subra]

When vidwans lie to the public, most of us CM fans don't do any more than raise our eyebrows. We are reluctant to take any action, including point out the lies and asking the musician to take back what he/she has said, since we feel a collective responsibility to protect the musician and not spoil any careers. Sometimes, however, a lie becomes so blatant that we feel angered and desire to do something about it. A lie said a hundred times has the potential to enter into record books as the truth and that is certainly something to be avoided.

One such example of a blatant lie is the description of Flute Shashank in the following YTB video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJYHP1a ... 0457653648

It says that Flute Mali was Shashank's guru and that Shashank entered Mali's "gurukul". This is utter nonsense. Shashank probably met Mali once and that is it. Mali was away from India for most of Shashank's young life until he passed away. Also, Mali never had any "gurukulam" in the traditional sense. Even established sishyas such as Dr. Ramani or Vidw. TS Sankaran, were never taught directly. They just had to follow Mali whenever they could and hope that he would be in the mood to pick up his instrument, and imbibe whatever they could when he played.

It would be interesting to hear the viewpoints of other rasikas, as I am sure many would have encountered such situations before.

[Sachi_R]

That's a new one!
Here is what shashank.org says:
Shashank Subramanyam was born in Rudrapatna, India, to Hemalatha and Prof. Subramanyam. His forefathers belong to Tirunelveli dist of Tamil Nadu. He was trained in Carnatic Music by his father and by vocalists R.K. Srikantan, Palghat K.V. Narayanaswami, and Hindustani music under Pandit Jasraj.

I know from Sri. KVN himself that the flute prodigy's tutelage was a brief one and ended badly as Sri. KVN didn't like some things.

[Nick H]

When vidwans lie to the public, ... ... ... One such example of a blatant lie is the description of Flute Shashank in the following YTB video:

This is a serious misrepresentation. Whether you meant to or not, you have accused Shashank of lying! The statement does not come from him, but from the organisers who have posted the video. The Darbar folk do great work in UK. I'm guessing that this statement is more of a mistake. This is what they say about Shashank on their website...

... He taught himself at first, but soon sought to enter the gurukul under legendary flute maestro T.R. Mahalingam ('Flute Mali'). But in Shashank's words, "When my father took me to him for his guidance, he refused, saying that I should not be guided by any flautist, including himself. He did not want to influence me with his style of playing, but it was his valuable advice that led me to vocal gurus instead. The flute was self-taught." ...

This is also commented on in the youtube video comments. Doesn't look to me like the statement came from a vidwan or that people kept quiet.

To my personal knowledge, Shashank is very proud of being self-taught and having developed his own style. I am fairly certain he would never say anything otherwise.

If anything, your post is a... errm, mistake. Please correct it!

[jshrikanth]

While the statement is wrong, the implication that Shashank himself has lied is very harsh, especially given . I would think this is a mistake by the Darbar folks.

Shashank has consistently claimed to be self-taught in flute, apart from initial training by his father. For example see his interview here: https://narenmusicnotes.wordpress.com/2 ... bramanyam/

Shashank's father was a student of Dindigul SP Natarajan who was Mali's shishya. So, in a sense, Shashank can be said to be part of Mali's Guru-Shishya parampara. And this might have lead to the misunderstanding and mistake on the YouTube video description.

Nick H as already quoted Shashank's words from the Darbar website. Also for more about Shashank's views on Mali and his music, see: https://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bits ... er%206.pdf. Page 23 onwards.

[Siva Subra]

I too thought that it was the organizer's mistake, as Shashank himself has never mentioned being Mali's student before (hence my shock at seeing this). However I was led to believe that the organizer, Darbar, just accepts the description provided by the musician, and that is what has led me to make my comments on this forum.

Shashank "bending the truth" is nothing new. I have witnessed him saying in concerts how he invented this technique or that technique, when other flutists from Mali onwards have used these same techniques. Then there are these rapid tabla-like movements with the bottom hand which he does to convey to the public the notion of phenomenal finger speed, which are just illusions. Shashank is a highly talented flutist and has some of the fastest movements with the fingers, and I totally respect him for his music skills. What is so sad is that a talented musician resorts to these sort of things when there is absolutely no need to do so.

[Sachi_R]

However I was led to believe that the organizer, Darbar, just accepts the description provided by the musician, and that is what has led me to make my comments on this forum.

One should ask the Darbar team about this.

[Nick H]

... ... Shashank is a highly talented flutist and has some of the fastest movements with the fingers, and I totally respect him for his music skills. What is so sad is that a talented musician resorts to these sort of things when there is absolutely no need to do so.

Didn't you mean to say, Oh, so it was a mistake?

What's new, and who invented or pioneered what, is something that a room full of artists would probably have a room full of opinions about. Nothing new in that. And very little is totally new... Even though a person may have come to it independently and honestly believe themselves to be original. Just accept this as part of the vaguaries of art. And, I suppose, lots of other fields too.

This is just a mistake in a youtube video description. It is of no consequence. There's lots of "wrong" things in the world: this is just another. Forget it. Or tell Shashank: he would probably prefer it to be accurate. But people say a lot of things about him, and I doubt he will loose much sleep over it.

[Siva Subra]

Didn't you mean to say, Oh, so it was a mistake?

If I find out that it is really Darbar's mistake, although I have been told that Darbar uses whatever information is provided to them (how else do they get the info on so many artistes?), I will have no hesitation in apologizing and taking back my words.

[arasi]

Let's get to the organizers' side. More often, artistes are introduced with hyperbole, and we don't take it for gospel truth.
With eminent artistes, innovation is part of their musical life--unique, not attempted before or not. Moreover, we are looking at a child prodigy here who still feels excited about his own findings in his playing, and in a child-like manner, perhaps shares his enthusiasm with us. We can, if we notice such statements to be puzzling, simply ignore them.
Most of us find him to be a fine artiste, and his playing, a joy to hear. This is strictly from someone who has heard him a handful of times in performances and many times on the web. Mali's imbibing keeps coming up in things written about him still, and it's not needed, I feel happy just listening to musicians and not pay much attention to upari-s (the extra stuff). As I am not a seasoned listener, I cannot comment on the technical side of his statements, of course...

[Sachi_R]

Folks,
We have to understand the original post. The post-er saw a totally bizarre story about T R Mali and Shashank and posted the story.

We should not think he is cavilling at Shashank's greatness. In fact Shashank is so big he might not care for us poor rasikas here. I mean this in jest of course.

Darbar 360 VR is a big enough platform and neither any artiste nor the organisers would let pass a really false story. Let's see who takes the corrective measure.

I once arranged a Hindustani concert and announced the artiste as Pandit.... And worse I did not put Pandit but only Vidwan in front of his guru's name. The artiste was SORELY upset. He said he would never claim that title until his guru himself had told him to use it.

[Nick H]

We should not think he is cavilling at Shashank's greatness. In fact Shashank is so big he might not care for us poor rasikas here. I mean this in jest of course.

If it had not been for his post #6, we could have wrapped this thread up in two or three posts.

If I find out that it is really Darbar's mistake, although I have been told that Darbar uses whatever information is provided to them (how else do they get the info on so many artistes?), I will have no hesitation in apologizing and taking back my words.

Have you asked them yet? Best you lay off until you do.

Let's get to the organizers' side. More often, artistes are introduced with hyperbole, and we don't take it for gospel truth.

Very good point. I've even watched people growing old whilst still being introduced as "One of the best of the younger generation of blah blah!"

As far as I know, Darbar are serious folk with the best of intentions. They can be made aware of this. If Siva Subra actually cares. A comment on youtube is not enough. They may never look at the comments.

We should not think he is cavilling at Shashank's greatness. In fact Shashank is so big he might not care for us poor rasikas here. I mean this in jest of course.

If it had not been for his post #6, we could have wrapped this thread up in two or three posts.

There are those on rasikas.org who think that artists should be treated with a soft touch. I have never agreed: the practitioner of any art is open to criticism. One of our strengths is that we have great rasikas who can do so with wisdom.

Criticism is one thing: calling someone a liar on the flimsiest of evidence is another. I don't think it is acceptable. I would have been content if it had been withdrawn early in the thread after seeing other evidence.

[jshrikanth]

We all agree that there is a factual error in the description of the video in question. I think we should give people the benefit of doubt before speculating/ questioning their intent - in this specific instance both for Shashank and Siva Subra (the original poster).

Here is a simple comparison of the language in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJYHP1ahjQ4) and the Darbar website ( https://www.darbar.org/artist/shashank-subramanyam/87 ):

"Initially he taught himself, but soon entered the gurukul as a student of legendary Carnatic flute maestro T.R. Mahalingam. His guru insisted that he should continue his vocal training, and avoid listening to other top masters of the day in order to develop his own style. The approach worked, and his tireless study led to the creation of new forms of gamaka (singing ornament) and breathing techniques."

"He taught himself at first, but soon sought to enter the gurukul under legendary flute maestro T.R. Mahalingam ('Flute Mali'). But in Shashank's words, "When my father took me to him for his guidance, he refused, saying that I should not be guided by any flautist, including himself. He did not want to influence me with his style of playing, but it was his valuable advice that led me to vocal gurus instead. The flute was self-taught."

This seems like a honest error in paraphrasing the quote from the website. No ulterior intentions.

I have written to Darbar.org ([email protected]) about this. Will keep you all updated if there is a reply.

[Siva Subra]

We all agree that there is a factual error in the description of the video in question. I think we should give people the benefit of doubt before speculating/ questioning their intent - in this specific instance both for Shashank and Siva Subra (the original poster).

This seems like a honest error in paraphrasing the quote from the website. No ulterior intentions.

I have written to Darbar.org ([email protected]) about this. Will keep you all updated if there is a reply.

Thank you jshrikanth, for trying to find out from Darbar. This is probably something that I should have done prior to pulling the trigger!
As you can see from my comments on the video, I too initially thought that it was Darbar that made the mistake. But I was told by somebody that it is up to the musician to describe his/her background. Based on what you have posted, it seems more like Darbar's mistake. Then why has Shashank himself not made the correction - this video has been up now for 28 days?

[Nick H]

People who post on youtube, unless it is part of a social-media thing for them, may not follow the comments. Shashank himself may or may not have seen the page. Who knows! But it is an error that I'm fairly sure Shashank himself would not like. Both in simple regard for truth, and in due regard for his own accomplishments.

[vsn69]

I have no clue about the referenced title but definitely in the history of Carnatic music, truths have been denied and lies have been propagated. I know this for sure....
Sometimes for reasons unknown when the truth stares in the face as well.