Kanjira, the Monitor Lizard, CM and Animal Rights

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 12 Feb 2007, 13:09

I heard, the other day, that Kanjiras have stopped being manufactured because of concerns of the Udumbu (from whose skin it is manufactured) being hunted to extinction. Here is a related article:

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/yw/2 ... 360300.htm

Being a lover of music as well as animals, animal skin used in the production of musical instruments presents a bit of a dilemma. On the one hand, I can't bear not listening to the Mrudangam or the Kanjira - on the other, the killing of an animal for the purpose is somewhat disturbing...

How can technology help replace animal skin with synthetic materials? Any developments of signifcance on that front?

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 12 Feb 2007, 13:19

I remember UKS saying he was working on something that would enable the kanjira to be tuned to different sruthis. IIRC, he was experimenting with some synthetic stuff.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 12 Feb 2007, 13:19

Umayalpuram Sivaraman has experimented with a fibreglass mridangam. Perhaps his disciple, Sri Erode Nagarajan can give more details about this.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 12 Feb 2007, 13:30

Your question reminds me of the cartoon of the fresh zoo recruit asking his question at the end of a lecture session on Conservation .
"What should I do if I find an endangered animal eating an Endangered Plant"?

Mercifully , CM is not endangered, yet.And so we have time on our hands.And technology.
The pity is that it is not just the skin of an animal (Cow in the case of Mridangam) but that it needs the skin of a calf - and again one without disease.That is what I remember having read.

These are strange times.In fact I hate to read Maneka Gandhi's articles.
cant eat pizzas anymore,.also sweets with those silver toppings.
Wont describe the reasons here.Otherwise you will all start blaming me , instead of Maneka.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 12 Feb 2007, 13:43

coolkarni wrote:These are strange times.In fact I hate to read Maneka Gandhi's articles. cant eat pizzas anymore,.also sweets with those silver toppings.
Wont describe the reasons here.Otherwise you will all start blaming me , instead of Maneka.

Same Here. After I saw an episode of "Heads and tais" on TV years ago, I stopped 2 things.:- eating a particular food, and, watching the programme

My mom was concerned and told me stenly, "sAku sAku. nInu A programmanna nODadE bEDa. AmEli innEnEnanna tinnOdanna biDtIyo"

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Feb 2007, 14:24

Yes, DRS, in the UK, how things were fried in lard in olden days, and the ingredients were not listed on packages! Thank goodness, we know what we eat by reading the list on the back of them. It all changed with a great awareness of (and respect for) vegetarianism. In recent times, the mad cow disease helped. And Bernard Shaw was a vegetarian! The so called haggis eating Scotland's capitol (Edinburgh) has more vegetarian restaurants offering health food than many other cities. In America, which was a meat and potato nation, changes are occuring. Our friends, in the sixties and seventies, after enjoying an indian meal would always exclaim, 'I don't know what to cook for you when you come to us'! Some would ask for recipes, other would try their best to feed us. One paricular friend who loved indian food and had absolutely no clue as to how to go about it would often despair about it, and one day I said, 'you have a lawn, don't you? Just let us loose in the garden to graze'! Remember, in those days, vegetarians were refered to as grass eaters!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 12 Feb 2007, 16:51

arasi wrote:Remember, in those days, vegetarians were refered to as grass eaters!

Not very different today - "ghaas bhoos" is still a standard pejorative for vegetarian food in the land of its birth....and there was this Iranian gentleman threw me a shocked look and the following very pertinent question, when I told him about my peculiar dietary restrictions: "But why?" - still honestly can't say I have a convincing answer so my stock response is "old habits die hard"

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 12 Feb 2007, 17:14

this Iranian gentleman threw me a shocked look

It was my turn to be shocked when two of my Israeli guests ,once,picked up the Paan Beeda , offered to them by Saravana Bhavan (which came with the Bill-sprinkled with colored coconut shavings) , placed them carefully behind their ear lobes and took photographs of each other , in full view of other amused Chennaites

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 12 Feb 2007, 17:39

We should introduce our Iranian and Israeli friends to each other - that should be really interesting!

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 12 Feb 2007, 17:42

Ah, the joys of being a vegetarian...

I bet many people don't know that animal input is used in various additives. This becomes a challenge, esp when they mention these additives by just some numbers...
Various sites provide this info, so it's worth checking.
E.g. of such a site:
http://www.veggieglobal.com/nutrition/v ... -guide.htm

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 12 Feb 2007, 19:07

if the vegetarians of today have to think about the plight of those animals which are handy in preparation of food they do not seem to have any other option than to starve!
most interestingly Buddha who was against sacrificing animals in fire died of indigestion after eating pork offered by Suthan one of his disciples.
In Mumbai I've seen Jains who do not eat after sunset and who are die hard vegetarians are leaders in wholesale trade of beef tallow widely used in our bath soaps.
I would prefer a golden middle path of not becoming too obsessive about these things. but as far as musical instruments are concerned if the substituted stock of raw material used for making them are capable of producing the same nadham as that of the original stock without any compromise it should be ok.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 12 Feb 2007, 19:30

vijay wrote:We should introduce our Iranian and Israeli friends to each other - that should be really interesting!

Please desist: we have highly trained people here who will begin to see WMD all over and go 'nukular'....

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 12 Feb 2007, 20:19

I thought the correct pronunciation was nukilar...or perhaps, we should modify it to "new killer"....

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 12 Feb 2007, 20:31

coolkarni wrote:cant eat pizzas anymore,.

Well, Cool, rest assured. The companies which market the enzyme to make cheese in countries like India sell only the substitute enzyme called "microbial rennet" instead of calf rennet(made from the fourth stomach of young calves). More recently, the calf rennet component (called chymosin) is made using recombinant DNA technology (I was part of a team in doing that) employing microbial slaves. So you see now you can have your cheese pizza without the taint of animal blood in it. Don't ask me if it is OK to kill the bacteria in the process of extracting that enzyme. Bacteria are considered plants. That is another story. If we extend such arguments, we should stop eating okra, eggplant, spinach and a whole lot of vegetables. Perhaps a day will come when there will be an organization called "PETP" (People for Ethical Treatment of Plants).

Coming back to the replacement of cowhide for the mrudangam, UKS experimented with IIT,Madras (Material Science Lab) a few years ago on fiberglass. They built several mrudangams but UKS was said to have rejected them since he was not happy with the sound quality they produced.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 12 Feb 2007, 20:41

I've heard this story doing the rounds a few years ago in the U.S. - not sure if apocryphal or not.

This Gujju lady would fast one day a week when she would do extra pooja...her son would bring special french fries for her from McD....and she would keep the fries as prasadam infront of god's image before eating them...only to later find that McD used to add beef flavor in their french fries! I believe they sued McD for false advertising...not sure if they won or not...

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 12 Feb 2007, 20:52

The case was settled amicably. McDonalds agreed to pay a monetary compensation to some organization(s) specified by the litigant.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 12 Feb 2007, 21:43

Hmm, so it's a true story after all. It sounded suspiciously like an 'urban legend' that I wasn't sure if it was true.
Wonder what that lady did as 'prAyaSchitta' for all those fries she had consumed.
I use restaurants like McD only for their facilities.

How I miss those 'poTlams' we used to get from the corner 'Manis cafe'. Just thinking of the taste brings back lovely memories...

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 12 Feb 2007, 22:56

We need a substitute for mridamgam, kanjira..
I need for silk...

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 12 Feb 2007, 23:31

Ganesh Kumar has worked with Cooperman on a synthetic skin kanjira (using a Remo drumhead).

Ganesh Kumar's web site:
http://www.ganeshkanjira.com/kanjira.php

Cooperman kanjira:
http://www.cooperman.com/handdrums/kanjira.html

Remo has a product designed by John Bergamo:
http://www.remo.com/portal/products/6/2 ... njira.html

John Bergamo's web site:
http://www.talmala-bergamo.com/

Has anyone used these? What are they like?

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 12 Feb 2007, 23:37

I didn't notice this before, but the Cooperman web page above has a video of Ganesh describing the new product and a demo.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Feb 2007, 12:28

vijay wrote:when I told him about my peculiar dietary restrictions: "But why?" - still honestly can't say I have a convincing answer so my stock response is "old habits die hard"

One possible scientific answer is: I eat stuff that is far from me in the evolutionary tree. Not sure it will sell but try it

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Feb 2007, 13:47

There you are, VK! We missed you on the forum while you were away and here you are, back with one of your scientific and sensible posts...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Feb 2007, 13:54

I believe that the kanjira is just as available today as it always has been ...to profesional kanjira artists who have long-standing relationships with their makers (err... I mean the kanjira makers, not the artists' gods

).

I don't think the makers will sell to strangers, though.

srinidhi · Post by **srinidhi** » 13 Feb 2007, 15:07

Suji Ram wrote:I need for silk...

If you come across one, do let me know.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 13 Feb 2007, 19:31

vasanthakokilam wrote:
vijay wrote:when I told him about my peculiar dietary restrictions: "But why?" - still honestly can't say I have a convincing answer so my stock response is "old habits die hard"
One possible scientific answer is: I eat stuff that is far from me in the evolutionary tree. Not sure it will sell but try it

This is what Sudha and I tell our daughter's teacher every year: we try not to eat anything that had a face or a mother! So far, no one has come up with exceptions to this rule.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 13 Feb 2007, 20:55

thats a good one. I used to tell my colleagues - "when you try to catch it to eat it, does it try to run away?". But yours is much better

Arun

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 13 Feb 2007, 21:01

srinidhi wrote:
Suji Ram wrote:I need for silk...
If you come across one, do let me know.

What is wrong with polyester/nylon/rayon/cotton and any combination of all or some of these? Don't tell me you want the exact chemical composition of silk. You only want the feel of it!

On second thought, if you wait for a while longer you may get a very similar (but not exact) composition to that of silk. Spider silk ( the one the arthropod makes to create a web --not the worldwide-- to trap other insects) is known for its steel-like strength. Scientists are reproducing it in the lab in small quantities now. Eventually it may be made on a large scale for fabric production. The spiders won't be killed for that--rest assured--although many women who are scared of it would like that. The gene is cloned and then the polypeptide is made (silk by the way is a polypeptide).

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 13 Feb 2007, 21:04

arunk wrote:thats a good one. I used to tell my colleagues - "when you try to catch it to eat it, does it try to run away?". But yours is much better

Arun

A piece of meat or dead fish or chicken sold in the supermarket does not run away when someone grabs it. So it is OK!:P

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 13 Feb 2007, 21:07

it probably did when the trawler caught it or probably would if it knew it was going to be caught.

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 13 Feb 2007, 21:11

mahakavi wrote:
srinidhi wrote:
Suji Ram wrote:I need for silk...
If you come across one, do let me know.
What is wrong with polyester/nylon/rayon/cotton and any combination of all or some of these? Don't tell me you want the exact chemical composition of silk. You only want the feel of it!

On second thought, if you wait for a while longer you may get a very similar (but not exact) composition to that of silk. Spider silk ( the one the arthropod makes to create a web --not the worldwide-- to trap other insects) is known for its steel-like strength. Scientists are reproducing it in the lab in small quantities now. Eventually it may be made on a large scale for fabric production. The spiders won't be killed for that--rest assured--although many women who are scared of it would like that. The gene is cloned and then the polypeptide is made (silk by the way is a polypeptide).

I was going to type something similar. I was in the same dept where people were working on silkworms. But there was no "spin off"

ravi2006 · Post by **ravi2006** » 14 Feb 2007, 03:51

jayaram wrote:I've heard this story doing the rounds a few years ago in the U.S. - not sure if apocryphal or not.

This Gujju lady would fast one day a week when she would do extra pooja...her son would bring special french fries for her from McD....and she would keep the fries as prasadam infront of god's image before eating them...only to later find that McD used to add beef flavor in their french fries! I believe they sued McD for false advertising...not sure if they won or not...

Reminds me of when an elderly Mami, strictly vegetarian, visited us in London. Once she went out on her own and returned to tell us how much she had enjoyed a "cheeseburger". We were in a dilemna whether or not to tell her what the "cheese" component actually is. In the end, decided ignorance is bliss.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 14 Feb 2007, 06:05

Spider silk ( the one the arthropod makes to create a web --not the worldwide-- to trap other insects) is known for its steel-like strength.

I can see it now...men running for cover when a woman wearing spider silk made from a black widow's web enters the room...

bala747 · Post by **bala747** » 14 Feb 2007, 06:59

I believe that the kanjira is just as available today as it always has been ...to profesional kanjira artists who have long-standing relationships with their makers (err... I mean the kanjira makers, not the artists' gods ).

I agree.. my brother seems to have got one with no problems from Varadan sir in Chennai (of course the price he asked was a bit 'interesting' (no, not in a bad way!) )

bala747 · Post by **bala747** » 14 Feb 2007, 07:02

I can see it now...men running for cover when a woman wearing spider silk made from a black widow's web enters the room...

Would take a LOT of black widows! And correct me if I wrong, but won't a saree from spider silk be rather transparent?

Let's hope good taste prevails!

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 14 Feb 2007, 07:54

jayaram wrote:
Spider silk ( the one the arthropod makes to create a web --not the worldwide-- to trap other insects) is known for its steel-like strength.
I can see it now...men running for cover when a woman wearing spider silk made from a black widow's web enters the room...

I can bet Jayaram will be at the head of the pack!

erode14 · Post by **erode14** » 16 Feb 2007, 11:00

mohan wrote:Umayalpuram Sivaraman has experimented with a fibreglass mridangam. Perhaps his disciple, Sri Erode Nagarajan can give more details about this.

The fiberglass is a substitute for the wood shell only. Uks Sir is working on substitute for other things like moottu(the drum heads) also.

even the tanned skin fails to produce nAdham, so only fresh ones can be used for instruments.

the thing is, we dont kill aniamals for making instruments. the repairers buy it from where they are killed for food.....

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Feb 2007, 19:50

konRAl pAvam, tinRAl pOccu!:lol:

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Feb 2007, 19:53

mahakavi,
You would say it is not worth translating

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Feb 2007, 20:10

arasi:
Yes, I just wanted to say that without explanation. The fine line between committing a crime and complicity to the crime has been mvoing around. If the supremacy of art beats the complicity in crime we should be forgiven. But my sincere hope is that a substitute is found soon. Years ago DuPont came up with a synthetic leather called Corfam. DuPont intended it for making shoes. For some odd reason the technical success did not translate into commercial success. I wonder if UKS & Co would consider that material instead of cowhide.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Feb 2007, 21:13

Bala... I think the kanjira makers.

Errm, sorry.... the alledged kanjira makers

should remain nameless....

The mridangam requires the skin of three animals; cow, goat and buffalo --- a huge challenge compared to the single lizard skin of a kanjira.

It is a total mystery to me multi-skinned drums such as the mridangam and the tabla evolved and were perfected to give the tone that they give. Perhaps it would be great if non-animal skins could be used, but it seems to me that it would almost be going back to square one. Let us take comfort from Erode's statement that the skins come from animals that have died for food anyway.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 16 Feb 2007, 21:24

I saw this documentary on youtube. I thought it might be an interesting addition to this thread.
Check: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAxvf2Qbnqg

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Feb 2007, 21:56

That Youtube video is interesting. They are such skilled craftsmen, no doubt. I wonder if they are also well-versed in all the laya aspects of CM. It is pathetic the fellow said that he couldn't play the drum since his hands get so much hardened by all the physical beating they take in making the mrudangam.

In the Outlook magazine a year or two ago they featured the mrudangam makers in Mylapore and how they contract with the mrudangam vidwans. Apparently the craftsmen bring the finished product to the vidwans' houses and leave them there without any face-to-face contact between the parties. The vidwans deal with third parties for arranging this. That probably is additional solace for the vidwans that they are not a party even indirectly(?) to the killing.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 16 Feb 2007, 22:34

Mahakavi, do you have a link for the Outlook article?

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Feb 2007, 23:13

Not right now. But I will locate it soon and post it here.

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 16 Feb 2007, 23:40

hahahaha, how coincidental... I happen to know everyone in that video, since that maker (his name is Johnson) has made mrudangams for me and my guru. Incidentally, he is also the mrudangam maker for UKS sir.
It is true that the mrudangam makers wont be able to play the instrument since their hands are hardened and chafed from so much beating and work in making the instrument (it is very labor-intensive!).
And I dont know about how other makers do it, but at least from what I have seen, the repairer will take the vadyam to his shop and do the necessary repairs (replace sadham, pull the vaaru, etc.) and bring it back to the vidwan's house, where he will inspect it, and the repairer can do last-minute adjustments with the artist.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Feb 2007, 23:41

Apparently the craftsmen bring the finished product to the vidwans' houses and leave them there without any face-to-face contact between the parties.

In the youtube video, there is a scene or two of them leaving the mridangam in front of a house.

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 17 Feb 2007, 00:15

Yea, I dont know what that is about...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Feb 2007, 00:22

telling in many fashion.

BTW, did you guys catch other videos from same user? Nice videos from carnatic concerts - from masters of yesterday and today!

Arun

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 17 Feb 2007, 06:03

Some opinions on the Ganesh Kumar Cooperman kanjira (post #19 above):
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/ha ... essage/228
http://www.richardsnotes.org/archives/2 ... 8/kanjira/

Has anyone played / heard this (other than the Ganesh Kumar demo)?

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 Feb 2007, 08:13

mahavishnu wrote:Mahakavi, do you have a link for the Outlook article?

mahavishnu:
I am afraid I cannot locate that article. It appeared in Outlook.India.com more than a year ago. When I went to their website to locate it it is not available anymore since they do not archive articles for a timeframe beyond 6 months. The article's title was "Thyagaraja's cow" or something very similar to it. There they talked about the whole episode of making the mrudangam out of cow's hide including killing the cows of young age for just this purpose so as to have the right texture of the hide. Perhaps cmlover printed it out!