A visit with Subramanya Bharathi
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Bravo, sub! And you thought this thread was going to die! Keep it going, all of you--that maharAshtrian too. (incidentally, wasn't it a maharAshtrian who acted as bhArathi in that film?). I am going to be away for a little while, and I bet this thread would have grown into an anumAr vAl when I get back!
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Dear coolkarni
permit me to differ with you on this occasion while I immensely enjoyed the episode! It is the moral that I am about to question!
I certainly admit that there are hordes of religious fanatics among us Hindus. But then there are hordes among us who are enlightened to admit that 'ekam brahma bahUnA vadanti viprAh'. Many Hindus will bow before Allah or Jesus without any reservations seeing the divinity among them. But that certainly is not true among most muslims or christians and even the enlightened among them. The reason is because their religious precepts are 'rigid' and dictate allegiance to that 'designated Godhead'. It is blasphemous for them to think otherwise. In Hinduism it is never necessary to 'convert' anyone nor are there any injunctions to 'kill' or physically harm somebody who refuses to accept the faith. Over the thousand of years of its existence 'proselytism' was never a part of Hinduism. A glaring proof is the plight of "hindus' in Pakistan/occupied Kashmir compared to the status of other religions in India!
I have seen many moons and faces! There is no need to recount events. But here is one. Since Gandhiji was the first to come out with a liberal outlook there were several attemts to convert him to Islam or to christianity ('clemancy Andrews' tried his best!). Once I had the audacity to ask him whether he preferred Islam to being a Hindu. Those were the days when our country was torn apart in religious riots in the wake of partition and Gandhiji even threatened that he would convert to isalm if it was necesssary to stop the retaliations. Bapuji gave a wry smile and told me: Ishavar Allah tErE naaM! Boy! Go and read what I wrote in the Harijan...
Bharathi advocated equality among all castes (pAppAnai ayyarenra kaalamumm pOcchE..)long before even EVR thought of a movement. But was he ever recognized by the TN Govts (including Rajaji) for his views! Bharathi/Ramanujam/Rajaji are expendable today because they are brahmins. Thos who fought for the downtrodden are forgotten because of their caste labels. Blind liberalism among Hindus will only lead to extinction as long as others refuse to see the light and use it for their exploitation.
Incidentally If the Trinity were christians CM would still be sung and appreciated by all of us since the 'music' is haunting. During the 19th Century the songs of vednayagam pillay (a converted christian who was coeval with Thyagaraja) were very popular and sung with alacrity. The arrival of the 'greats' in the 20th century gave the edge to Trinity due to the excellence of their musical compositions.
By the by I am surprised why your friend did not perform his 'namaaz' during those 30 hours he was cloistered with you
permit me to differ with you on this occasion while I immensely enjoyed the episode! It is the moral that I am about to question!
I certainly admit that there are hordes of religious fanatics among us Hindus. But then there are hordes among us who are enlightened to admit that 'ekam brahma bahUnA vadanti viprAh'. Many Hindus will bow before Allah or Jesus without any reservations seeing the divinity among them. But that certainly is not true among most muslims or christians and even the enlightened among them. The reason is because their religious precepts are 'rigid' and dictate allegiance to that 'designated Godhead'. It is blasphemous for them to think otherwise. In Hinduism it is never necessary to 'convert' anyone nor are there any injunctions to 'kill' or physically harm somebody who refuses to accept the faith. Over the thousand of years of its existence 'proselytism' was never a part of Hinduism. A glaring proof is the plight of "hindus' in Pakistan/occupied Kashmir compared to the status of other religions in India!
I have seen many moons and faces! There is no need to recount events. But here is one. Since Gandhiji was the first to come out with a liberal outlook there were several attemts to convert him to Islam or to christianity ('clemancy Andrews' tried his best!). Once I had the audacity to ask him whether he preferred Islam to being a Hindu. Those were the days when our country was torn apart in religious riots in the wake of partition and Gandhiji even threatened that he would convert to isalm if it was necesssary to stop the retaliations. Bapuji gave a wry smile and told me: Ishavar Allah tErE naaM! Boy! Go and read what I wrote in the Harijan...
Bharathi advocated equality among all castes (pAppAnai ayyarenra kaalamumm pOcchE..)long before even EVR thought of a movement. But was he ever recognized by the TN Govts (including Rajaji) for his views! Bharathi/Ramanujam/Rajaji are expendable today because they are brahmins. Thos who fought for the downtrodden are forgotten because of their caste labels. Blind liberalism among Hindus will only lead to extinction as long as others refuse to see the light and use it for their exploitation.
Incidentally If the Trinity were christians CM would still be sung and appreciated by all of us since the 'music' is haunting. During the 19th Century the songs of vednayagam pillay (a converted christian who was coeval with Thyagaraja) were very popular and sung with alacrity. The arrival of the 'greats' in the 20th century gave the edge to Trinity due to the excellence of their musical compositions.
By the by I am surprised why your friend did not perform his 'namaaz' during those 30 hours he was cloistered with you
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mahakavi
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mridu
- Posts: 8
- Joined: 15 Jan 2007, 01:05
Muslim pujari in Durga's abode:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... ga's~abode
=======================================================
Mira's wife Mirabi, emboldened by the novelty in her husband's life style, began going to the local church. But she stopped visiting it now.
Though Mira devotedly performs puja, he has not given up on his own religion. Recently, he helped in the construction of the local mosque, and married his son and daughter into Muslim families. "The goddess makes it all possible", he says.
=========================================================
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... ga's~abode
=======================================================
Mira's wife Mirabi, emboldened by the novelty in her husband's life style, began going to the local church. But she stopped visiting it now.
Though Mira devotedly performs puja, he has not given up on his own religion. Recently, he helped in the construction of the local mosque, and married his son and daughter into Muslim families. "The goddess makes it all possible", he says.
=========================================================
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
These are possible only in the 'secular' India. Hewould have been butchered in any Islamic country since Idol worship is punishable by death in Islam!
Sub
I realize that. The gentleman to beguile, missed his matins which shows his commitment to his own religion that is to be appreciated but which is all too common among Hindus
Sub
I realize that. The gentleman to beguile, missed his matins which shows his commitment to his own religion that is to be appreciated but which is all too common among Hindus
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coolkarni
CML
If there was a moral there indeed, It had something to do with the ability to strip myself of assumptions and be alert to possibilities in relationships.He was not a prankster , Nor did he try to convert me.
Man to Man, Human Being to Human Being...
He taught me the importance of reaching out , Without reservations.
If there was a moral there indeed, It had something to do with the ability to strip myself of assumptions and be alert to possibilities in relationships.He was not a prankster , Nor did he try to convert me.
Man to Man, Human Being to Human Being...
He taught me the importance of reaching out , Without reservations.
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chalanata
- Posts: 603
- Joined: 06 Feb 2010, 15:55
my reations:
1. bismillah khan said ' i can move to the country of your choice; but there can you give me ganges and lord viswanatha?' sheik chinna moulana refused to move out of srirangam till his end.
2. this generation of muslims in india are a withering breed; now you would find only sympathisers of osama and saddam.
3. every alternate channel is a mouth piece of one of the two major minority religions. they have all the money in the world and they attack the faith of the millions.
4. the rulers seem to have more prejudice against hinduism because they think it was the root cause of the sufferings of oppressed castes over generations.
5. Sri.E.V.Ramasamiyar popularly known by his followers as Periar cleverly shifted the entire blame on brahmins alone and could safeguard the interest of other caste hindus.
6. we do not have to be 'apologetic' for being hindus. that is actually christened as 'hindutva'.
7. nobody need to teach us transcending beyond religious barriers. here was an 'old man' who laid his life for religious tolerance and unity.
8. when the british informed paramacharya that they would be willing to shift the mosque near the mutt in case it was hindering his daily rituals. paramacharya replied, ' it is not at all a hinderance; in fact i get up every morning only after hearing their 'wong'. (call for namas).
9. there is absolutely no problem about peaceful coexistence; we have an open mind and rever other religions. you see acts of reciprocation only rarely. and we are so innocent that we become overwhelmed even in such rare acts.
10. while tolerance is ok we will have to wake when it comes to a question of safeguarding our religion, the scriptures, and fine arts like CM. this is the duty we owe to our future generations.
11. coolji! if you were to give a sermon to the other gentleman and if he had patience to listen to you i would have been happier! i'm of the firm conviction that you are more competent to do so!
1. bismillah khan said ' i can move to the country of your choice; but there can you give me ganges and lord viswanatha?' sheik chinna moulana refused to move out of srirangam till his end.
2. this generation of muslims in india are a withering breed; now you would find only sympathisers of osama and saddam.
3. every alternate channel is a mouth piece of one of the two major minority religions. they have all the money in the world and they attack the faith of the millions.
4. the rulers seem to have more prejudice against hinduism because they think it was the root cause of the sufferings of oppressed castes over generations.
5. Sri.E.V.Ramasamiyar popularly known by his followers as Periar cleverly shifted the entire blame on brahmins alone and could safeguard the interest of other caste hindus.
6. we do not have to be 'apologetic' for being hindus. that is actually christened as 'hindutva'.
7. nobody need to teach us transcending beyond religious barriers. here was an 'old man' who laid his life for religious tolerance and unity.
8. when the british informed paramacharya that they would be willing to shift the mosque near the mutt in case it was hindering his daily rituals. paramacharya replied, ' it is not at all a hinderance; in fact i get up every morning only after hearing their 'wong'. (call for namas).
9. there is absolutely no problem about peaceful coexistence; we have an open mind and rever other religions. you see acts of reciprocation only rarely. and we are so innocent that we become overwhelmed even in such rare acts.
10. while tolerance is ok we will have to wake when it comes to a question of safeguarding our religion, the scriptures, and fine arts like CM. this is the duty we owe to our future generations.
11. coolji! if you were to give a sermon to the other gentleman and if he had patience to listen to you i would have been happier! i'm of the firm conviction that you are more competent to do so!
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Dear coolkarni:
Man to Man, Human Being to Human Being...
is a beautiful moral. But you did not require that lesson since you inherited it knowing what I do. Though I am privy to your conversation with that fine gentleman I am sure he learned more from you than you ever did from him!
Unscrupulos politicians in TN are bent on finding scapegosts (paper tigers will be more appropriate) to exploit the innocent public. There is the early tendency of what Hitler tried using his propoganda machine. The first victim will be our age-old wisdom and philosophy followed by arts and literature. With dwindling attention being paid to the promotion of CM by the state, it will be a sad day when CM survives only in private archives!
Man to Man, Human Being to Human Being...
is a beautiful moral. But you did not require that lesson since you inherited it knowing what I do. Though I am privy to your conversation with that fine gentleman I am sure he learned more from you than you ever did from him!
Unscrupulos politicians in TN are bent on finding scapegosts (paper tigers will be more appropriate) to exploit the innocent public. There is the early tendency of what Hitler tried using his propoganda machine. The first victim will be our age-old wisdom and philosophy followed by arts and literature. With dwindling attention being paid to the promotion of CM by the state, it will be a sad day when CM survives only in private archives!
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coolkarni
Love and Inheritance !!
Wonder how effective , an inheritance is , in such matters.
I once read a fine piece of advice -from a Marriage Counsellor-which went like this:
"When One says I HATE YOU, it is never doubted .Not even for a moment.But When one says I LOVE YOU .It is accepted with some doubt / scepticism, to start with.
Hate has that quality of immediate acceptance.The lack of a need to cultivate it.One does not need to keep going back, to prop it up.
But Love is different.It needs to be rediscovered , every single time.It needs constant nourishment.
So this was one such nourishing experience.
I guess we are straying away too much from the main subject.
Wonder how effective , an inheritance is , in such matters.
I once read a fine piece of advice -from a Marriage Counsellor-which went like this:
"When One says I HATE YOU, it is never doubted .Not even for a moment.But When one says I LOVE YOU .It is accepted with some doubt / scepticism, to start with.
Hate has that quality of immediate acceptance.The lack of a need to cultivate it.One does not need to keep going back, to prop it up.
But Love is different.It needs to be rediscovered , every single time.It needs constant nourishment.
So this was one such nourishing experience.
I guess we are straying away too much from the main subject.
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mahakavi
OK, this is a good time to steer the thread back in its track.
We all know when people are alive their faults/deficiencies are the ones that strike us. Only when somebody dies their "good" qualities suddenly come to light. Why? Death, the dreaded monster, does some good too. Death pardons the deficiencies and elevates the virtues in everybody who is no more--more so in the case of great people. If Gandhi was not assasinated, he may not have attained the lofty status that is given to him now. That is because while he was alive even his own lieutenants differed with him so much and considered him very obstinate on several issues. Today being Gandhi memorial day, a tribute is due to the Father of the Nation. The country owes a debt to him which can never be paid in material terms!
Coming back to Bharathi: It is striking that the city of Calcutta closed down to protest the arrival of the Prince of Wales in 1920-21 (?) which was spearheaded by Nethaji Subhash Chandra Bose. Bharathi, while backing the Tilak front (which was for fighting fire with fire) nevertheless welcomed the Prince of Wales on behalf of BhArata mAtA.
... vaDamERRisaikkaN mAperundolaiyinOr poRciRu tIvagap puravalan payanda naRRavap pudalva!
(oh, the son of the king of the golden island which is far away in the northwestern direction from here -India)
nalvarvunadE
(welcome to you!)
ennarun sEygaLai ninnuDai munnOr ATci toDanguRUum munnar nenjcelAm puNNAy ninRanan yAn
(before your forefathers started ruling my children I was so heartbroken)
Ayira varuDam anbilA anniyar ATciyin viLainda allalgaL eNNilA
(in the thousand years of alien rule --of Muslims/Moguls-- we had so much misery)
........
maRRun nATTinOr vandadan pinnar agattinil silapuN ARudal eydina
(Then when your countrymen came over some of our wounds got some salve)
So, here he gives credit to the British for some of the good things they did for the country putting an end to or doing their best to stop: religious atrocities, sati, throwing women in the river, child marriage, and female infanticide.
He then narrates the benefits of western medicine. After enumerating all the good deeds he also tells him:
nalguravAdi navamAm tollaigal enai vandaDainduLa numarAl
(we were driven into poverty and other miseries because of your clan).
And then he ends it with greetings to the Prince and his kAdalangiLi (love bride) and hopes for goodwill between the two nations and welfare of the people of both countries.
He practiced what he preached: pagaivanukkaruLvAy (be gracious even to your enemy).
What a noble soul!
We all know when people are alive their faults/deficiencies are the ones that strike us. Only when somebody dies their "good" qualities suddenly come to light. Why? Death, the dreaded monster, does some good too. Death pardons the deficiencies and elevates the virtues in everybody who is no more--more so in the case of great people. If Gandhi was not assasinated, he may not have attained the lofty status that is given to him now. That is because while he was alive even his own lieutenants differed with him so much and considered him very obstinate on several issues. Today being Gandhi memorial day, a tribute is due to the Father of the Nation. The country owes a debt to him which can never be paid in material terms!
Coming back to Bharathi: It is striking that the city of Calcutta closed down to protest the arrival of the Prince of Wales in 1920-21 (?) which was spearheaded by Nethaji Subhash Chandra Bose. Bharathi, while backing the Tilak front (which was for fighting fire with fire) nevertheless welcomed the Prince of Wales on behalf of BhArata mAtA.
... vaDamERRisaikkaN mAperundolaiyinOr poRciRu tIvagap puravalan payanda naRRavap pudalva!
(oh, the son of the king of the golden island which is far away in the northwestern direction from here -India)
nalvarvunadE
(welcome to you!)
ennarun sEygaLai ninnuDai munnOr ATci toDanguRUum munnar nenjcelAm puNNAy ninRanan yAn
(before your forefathers started ruling my children I was so heartbroken)
Ayira varuDam anbilA anniyar ATciyin viLainda allalgaL eNNilA
(in the thousand years of alien rule --of Muslims/Moguls-- we had so much misery)
........
maRRun nATTinOr vandadan pinnar agattinil silapuN ARudal eydina
(Then when your countrymen came over some of our wounds got some salve)
So, here he gives credit to the British for some of the good things they did for the country putting an end to or doing their best to stop: religious atrocities, sati, throwing women in the river, child marriage, and female infanticide.
He then narrates the benefits of western medicine. After enumerating all the good deeds he also tells him:
nalguravAdi navamAm tollaigal enai vandaDainduLa numarAl
(we were driven into poverty and other miseries because of your clan).
And then he ends it with greetings to the Prince and his kAdalangiLi (love bride) and hopes for goodwill between the two nations and welfare of the people of both countries.
He practiced what he preached: pagaivanukkaruLvAy (be gracious even to your enemy).
What a noble soul!
Last edited by mahakavi on 31 Jan 2007, 08:29, edited 1 time in total.
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
sub
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=35359#p35359
seeToday being Gandhi memorial day, a tribute is due to the Father of the Nation. The country owes a debt to him which can never be paid in material terms!
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=35359#p35359
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Sub
Your thoughts....
This is certainly controversial. I am sure it will alienate the millions of muslims who would be unwilling to accept the Moghals as foreigners. It is akin to considering Brahmins ( as invading Aryans) and not sons of the soil!Ayira varuDam anbilA anniyar ATciyin viLainda allalgaL eNNilA
(in the thousand years of alien rule --of Muslims/Moguls-- we had so much misery)
........
maRRun nATTinOr vandadan pinnar agattinil silapuN ARudal eydina
(Then when your countrymen came over some of our wounds got some salve)
Your thoughts....
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mahakavi
cmlover:
History written by various authors (both Indian and foreign) certainly provides evidence to indicate that all the muslim invaders came from the northwest. Mohammad of Gori and Mohammad of Gazni were from Afghanistan and so was Sher Shah. Babur who started the Mogul dynastry was from Uzbekistan. Mongol became Mogul in Persian. Jalaluddin Mohammad (aka Akbar) was considered Persian by ancestry since Babur stayed in Persia before landing in India.
From CE 900 on when Gazni/Gori invaded India, it has been a tortuous millenium for India. Muslim invasion and rule in India has been nothing but torture, rape, pillage of Indian treasures etc. There have been some exceptions like Akbar but overall it can be called "rape of India". Bharathi is not wrong when he said that "Ayira varuDam anbilA anniyar Atciyin viLainda allalgaL". He also said "pOnadai eNNip pulambiyil genpayan?"
He also said later in the same poem that the British while eliminating some evils from the society added a few of their own. So to quote a Thamizh adage, "eriginRa koLLiyil enda koLLI nalla koLLi?" (of the burning bundles of flame which is the best)?
The salient point is that despite such injustices meted out by the foreigners Bharathi was ready to forgive them and wish them well. Remember Bharathi was not against Islam or Christianity but only perpetrators of evil using the religion as a cover. For that matter he never spared even the orthodox Hindus for their wayward ways in treating other Hindus who were of lower(?) ranks.
History written by various authors (both Indian and foreign) certainly provides evidence to indicate that all the muslim invaders came from the northwest. Mohammad of Gori and Mohammad of Gazni were from Afghanistan and so was Sher Shah. Babur who started the Mogul dynastry was from Uzbekistan. Mongol became Mogul in Persian. Jalaluddin Mohammad (aka Akbar) was considered Persian by ancestry since Babur stayed in Persia before landing in India.
From CE 900 on when Gazni/Gori invaded India, it has been a tortuous millenium for India. Muslim invasion and rule in India has been nothing but torture, rape, pillage of Indian treasures etc. There have been some exceptions like Akbar but overall it can be called "rape of India". Bharathi is not wrong when he said that "Ayira varuDam anbilA anniyar Atciyin viLainda allalgaL". He also said "pOnadai eNNip pulambiyil genpayan?"
He also said later in the same poem that the British while eliminating some evils from the society added a few of their own. So to quote a Thamizh adage, "eriginRa koLLiyil enda koLLI nalla koLLi?" (of the burning bundles of flame which is the best)?
The salient point is that despite such injustices meted out by the foreigners Bharathi was ready to forgive them and wish them well. Remember Bharathi was not against Islam or Christianity but only perpetrators of evil using the religion as a cover. For that matter he never spared even the orthodox Hindus for their wayward ways in treating other Hindus who were of lower(?) ranks.
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
That is the key point to be emphasized. Bharathi is well recognized as a 'mahaakavi' in Tamil. But his progressive views as a social reformer are not well publicised. His championing works need more national publicity during these troubled times of discontent among the minority!Bharathi was not against Islam or Christianity but only perpetrators of evil using the religion as a cover. For that matter he never spared even the orthodox Hindus for their wayward ways in treating other Hindus who were of lower(?) ranks.
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jayaram
- Posts: 1317
- Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08
While it is good to have people like Gandhiji and Bharatiyar providing us lofty messages, sustained changes cannot take place without larger numbers of people becoming leaders themselves, not just followers of these people. And the message is more important than the messengers - this is something that has been missed by humanity for long long time.
Praising these people to the skies while practising something else is somewhat like the 'hindu' who did away with the Mahatma.
Praising these people to the skies while practising something else is somewhat like the 'hindu' who did away with the Mahatma.
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mahakavi
Jayaram:jayaram wrote:Praising these people to the skies while practising something else is somewhat like the 'hindu' who did away with the Mahatma.
You don't mean we are either hypocritical or just paying lip service to the ideals propounded by Bharathi--do you?
By reliving those ideals in these pages and elsewhere ( I do write occasional columns in chennaionline.com on similar issues) we are just propagating those messages and refreshing them in the minds of readers and fellow posters. Paying tributes is one way to rekindle the spirit. The memorial days for great leaders are intended for the same purpose, although they have become mechanically ritualistic these days. Besides, there can only be a few leaders (ellOrum pallakkil uTkArndAl yAr tUkkuvadu?--if everybody becomes a leader there won't be followers and then there will be umpteeen declarations and none followed) and even they are being excoriated by vested interests.
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jayaram
- Posts: 1317
- Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08
MK - I was referring mostly to the tendency of folks to praise these great people, but when it comes to opinions on things that matter, take contrary and often bigoted views. Case in point is the oft-repeated mantra that one hears from 'hindutva' types on how other religions and cultures have polluted this holy land etc. Gandhiji, Bharatiyar, and other great people would be turning in their graves if they were to hear these shrill voices. It's almost as if all their efforts have come to nought.
I would rather we didn't spend a lot of time praising these people, but take the essence of their messages and apply it to our own lives. This, according to me, is graceful living.
On being a leader - in a sense, every activity we perform requires us to take some leadership. We need to breathe freshness of our own ideas (and a good dose of common sense) into the lofty philosophies propounded by these greats - not merely parrot them.
That's all.
I would rather we didn't spend a lot of time praising these people, but take the essence of their messages and apply it to our own lives. This, according to me, is graceful living.
On being a leader - in a sense, every activity we perform requires us to take some leadership. We need to breathe freshness of our own ideas (and a good dose of common sense) into the lofty philosophies propounded by these greats - not merely parrot them.
That's all.
Last edited by jayaram on 01 Feb 2007, 20:51, edited 1 time in total.
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mahakavi
It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness! Let us leave the people who are bigoted and intolerant.
Bharathi did not ignore them however. There was fire in his belly--literally and figuratively. His stomach was empty most of the time and contrary to the popular claim that an empty stomach nurtures communism, in Bharathi's case it nurtured spiritualism. Deprivation only enhanced his poetic enthusiasm. He not only lit a candle but set the world on fire too. Look at this song:
agnikunjconRu kaNDEn--adai
angoru kATTilOr pondiDai vaittEn
vendu taNindadu kADu--tazhal
vIrattil kunjcenRum mUppenRum uNDO?
அக்னிகுஞ்சொன்று கண்டேன்--அதை
அங்கொரு காட்டிலோர் பொந்திடை வைத்தேன்
வெந்து தணிந்தது காடு--தழல்
வீரத்தில் குஞ்சென்றும் மூப்பென்றும் உண்டோ?
தத்தரிகிட தத்தரிகிட தித்தோம்
This poem was meant to kindle the spirit of fighting for freedom among the youth in India. The literal meaning implies a small flame left inside a hole in a tree can destroy the whole forest. The message he conveyed was that although the freedom struggle was mainly carried out by the elderly (mUppu) leaders at that time the youth (kunjcu) could be a powerful force too in achieving the desired end. That is the interpretation on the first take. If you dig in a little deeper it has a philosophical overtone too. Bharathi was talking about attacking the intolerance, bigotry, discrimination and other associated negative feelings in the society. The pondu he is talking about here is the inner labyrinths of the individual. He is trying to awaken the goodness inside everybody by placing the flame ,agnikkunjcu, of self-awakening inside the person. In the process all the inhibitions get destroyed. So a little effort could go a long way. That is perhaps the spirit Bharathi might have wanted to convey.
Bharathi did not ignore them however. There was fire in his belly--literally and figuratively. His stomach was empty most of the time and contrary to the popular claim that an empty stomach nurtures communism, in Bharathi's case it nurtured spiritualism. Deprivation only enhanced his poetic enthusiasm. He not only lit a candle but set the world on fire too. Look at this song:
agnikunjconRu kaNDEn--adai
angoru kATTilOr pondiDai vaittEn
vendu taNindadu kADu--tazhal
vIrattil kunjcenRum mUppenRum uNDO?
அக்னிகுஞ்சொன்று கண்டேன்--அதை
அங்கொரு காட்டிலோர் பொந்திடை வைத்தேன்
வெந்து தணிந்தது காடு--தழல்
வீரத்தில் குஞ்சென்றும் மூப்பென்றும் உண்டோ?
தத்தரிகிட தத்தரிகிட தித்தோம்
This poem was meant to kindle the spirit of fighting for freedom among the youth in India. The literal meaning implies a small flame left inside a hole in a tree can destroy the whole forest. The message he conveyed was that although the freedom struggle was mainly carried out by the elderly (mUppu) leaders at that time the youth (kunjcu) could be a powerful force too in achieving the desired end. That is the interpretation on the first take. If you dig in a little deeper it has a philosophical overtone too. Bharathi was talking about attacking the intolerance, bigotry, discrimination and other associated negative feelings in the society. The pondu he is talking about here is the inner labyrinths of the individual. He is trying to awaken the goodness inside everybody by placing the flame ,agnikkunjcu, of self-awakening inside the person. In the process all the inhibitions get destroyed. So a little effort could go a long way. That is perhaps the spirit Bharathi might have wanted to convey.
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Very nice interpretation Sub!
In a way Bharathi himself was the agnikunju who set on fire the dormant freedom struggle in TN through his poems and the conflagration resulted in the Freedom of our country. Coincidentally he was an youngster compared to the older Fighters and one who lit the flame among the younger generations.
பாரதி என்றோர் பிழம்பு
பாரத நாட்டில் முளைத்து
விடுதலை வேட்கை மூட்டி
பிறந்தது இன்ப சுதந்திரம்
மூத்தோர் பலரிடை அன்று
அவ்விளையோன் ஏற்றிய தீபம்
In a way Bharathi himself was the agnikunju who set on fire the dormant freedom struggle in TN through his poems and the conflagration resulted in the Freedom of our country. Coincidentally he was an youngster compared to the older Fighters and one who lit the flame among the younger generations.
பாரதி என்றோர் பிழம்பு
பாரத நாட்டில் முளைத்து
விடுதலை வேட்கை மூட்டி
பிறந்தது இன்ப சுதந்திரம்
மூத்தோர் பலரிடை அன்று
அவ்விளையோன் ஏற்றிய தீபம்
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mahakavi
He died because he suffered serious internal injury when he was picked up and thrown on the street by the temple elephant (happened to be deranged at that time) and that too while he was feeding bananas to the elephant in tiurvallikkENi. He didn't die right away but was sick for a time. It was 1921 and the medical care rendered for the natives was perhaps sub-standard. He must have suffered serious internal injureis which were not properly diagnosed. God wanted to take him because he was too precious a person to be left among the wretched humanity that existed at his time.
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jayaram
- Posts: 1317
- Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08
Stretching this line of thinking to its logical limit, there must be people out there whom god never sends to this wretched earth in the first place because they are way too precious!God wanted to take him because he was too precious a person to be left among the wretched humanity that existed at his time.
Fact: he died of injuries suffered when an elephant threw him.
Rest is all interpretation and conjectures.
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mahakavi
Jayaram:jayaram wrote:Stretching this line of thinking to its logical limit, there must be people out there whom god never sends to this wretched earth in the first place because they are way too precious!God wanted to take him because he was too precious a person to be left among the wretched humanity that existed at his time.
Fact: he died of injuries suffered when an elephant threw him.
Rest is all interpretation and conjectures.
Thank you for your down-to-earth (or even down-to-death) interpretation of the event. You opened my eyes!
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chalanata
- Posts: 603
- Joined: 06 Feb 2010, 15:55
there is lot of romanticizing around about bharati! this has always been our problem. kuvalaikkannan mentions that bharati was addicted to abin which he inherited from sethupathi who was his childhood friend. this had a toll on his health and this only must have caused his untimely death and not the poor animal.
not withstanding the above, our love for barathi, mahakavi&co, please note, is as enormous as ever!
(and what is this mahakavi business? someone gave you any title? i'm curious........)
not withstanding the above, our love for barathi, mahakavi&co, please note, is as enormous as ever!
(and what is this mahakavi business? someone gave you any title? i'm curious........)
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vgvindan
- Posts: 1430
- Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51
நோவாலே மடிந்திட்டான் புத்தன் கண்டீர்!
அந்தணனாம் சங்கராசார்யன் மாண்டான்;
அதற்கடுத்த விராமாநுஜனும் போனான்;
சிலுவையிலே அடியுண்டு யேசு செத்தான்;
தீயதொரு கணையாலே கண்ணன் மாண்டான்;
பலர் புகழுமிராமனுமே யாற்றில் வீழ்ந்தான்;
பார்மீது நான் சாகாதிருப்பேன், காண்பீர்!
மலிவு கண்டீரிவ்வுண்மை பொய் கூறேன் யான்,
மடிந்தாலும் பொய் கூறேன் மானுடர்க்கே,
நலிவுமில்லை, சாவுமில்லை கேளீர், கேளீர்!
நாணத்தைக் கவலையினைச் சினத்தைப் பொய்யை
அச்சத்தை வேட்கைதனை அழித்துவிட்டால்
அப்போது சாவுமங்கே அழிந்துபோகும்;
(அறுபத்தாறு - முதற்காண்டம் - மரணத்தை வெல்லும் வழி)
Buddha died of disease;
Brahmin Sankaracharya died;
Next Ramanuja also passed away;
Jesus died at the Cross beaten.
Krishna died by an evil-arrow
Well-praised Rama fell into a river;
This is the cheap truth - I shall not utter falsehood;
Even if I die, I shall not utter falsehood to people;
Neither there is emaciation, nor death, listen, listen!
Shyness, worry, anger, falsehood,
fear and desire, these if you decimate,
then and there death perishes.
அந்தணனாம் சங்கராசார்யன் மாண்டான்;
அதற்கடுத்த விராமாநுஜனும் போனான்;
சிலுவையிலே அடியுண்டு யேசு செத்தான்;
தீயதொரு கணையாலே கண்ணன் மாண்டான்;
பலர் புகழுமிராமனுமே யாற்றில் வீழ்ந்தான்;
பார்மீது நான் சாகாதிருப்பேன், காண்பீர்!
மலிவு கண்டீரிவ்வுண்மை பொய் கூறேன் யான்,
மடிந்தாலும் பொய் கூறேன் மானுடர்க்கே,
நலிவுமில்லை, சாவுமில்லை கேளீர், கேளீர்!
நாணத்தைக் கவலையினைச் சினத்தைப் பொய்யை
அச்சத்தை வேட்கைதனை அழித்துவிட்டால்
அப்போது சாவுமங்கே அழிந்துபோகும்;
(அறுபத்தாறு - முதற்காண்டம் - மரணத்தை வெல்லும் வழி)
Buddha died of disease;
Brahmin Sankaracharya died;
Next Ramanuja also passed away;
Jesus died at the Cross beaten.
Krishna died by an evil-arrow
Well-praised Rama fell into a river;
This is the cheap truth - I shall not utter falsehood;
Even if I die, I shall not utter falsehood to people;
Neither there is emaciation, nor death, listen, listen!
Shyness, worry, anger, falsehood,
fear and desire, these if you decimate,
then and there death perishes.
Last edited by vgvindan on 14 Feb 2007, 20:14, edited 1 time in total.
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mahakavi
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mahakavi
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chalanata
- Posts: 603
- Joined: 06 Feb 2010, 15:55
mahakavi,
i am sorry if you are really hurt. i never had an iota of imagination that my post will hurt you. in any case you are free to shower whatever abuses that you have in mind. my only request is please be direct in your abuses. i can take them!
please don't worry about my ignorance. one of my pet theories is that life is a continuous process of learning and discovering one's self!
i am sorry if you are really hurt. i never had an iota of imagination that my post will hurt you. in any case you are free to shower whatever abuses that you have in mind. my only request is please be direct in your abuses. i can take them!
please don't worry about my ignorance. one of my pet theories is that life is a continuous process of learning and discovering one's self!
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mahakavi
"It is better to be silent and be thought of as a fool than to open the mouth and prove it". I didn't say that, somebody else did.chalanata wrote:mahakavi,
please don't worry about my ignorance. one of my pet theories is that life is a continuous process of learning and discovering one's self!
So long as one is willing (?) to learn and also remove their prejudices, there is no problem. I take pride in having an "open mind" but when some undesirable elements start dumping trash in it, I can't take it.
Last edited by mahakavi on 14 Feb 2007, 20:15, edited 1 time in total.
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mahakavi
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MaheshS
- Posts: 1186
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Hehehe Sub, that is *very* contradictorymahakavi wrote:I take pride in having an "open mind" but when some undesirable elements start dumping trash in it, I can't take it.
You either have an open mind or not. Regardless of what's dumped in, an "open" mind will have the maturity to reject / ignore it and carry on.If you *<b>can't</b>* take it then it's no longer an "open" mind. It's closed!!!!
Last edited by MaheshS on 14 Feb 2007, 20:23, edited 1 time in total.
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mahakavi
MaheshS:MaheshS wrote:Hehehe Sub, that is *very* contradictorymahakavi wrote:I take pride in having an "open mind" but when some undesirable elements start dumping trash in it, I can't take it.
If you *<b>can't</b>* take it then it's no longer an "open" mind. It's closed!!!!
I am not sure you understand the import of my statement. My declaration that I have an open mind is an indication of entertaining views of all shades without prejudice. But trash is trash and has to be rejected. That is what I did. When I say "I can't take it" it means I am rejecting it. The mind is still not closed. It will entertain all opposing views except real trash. Of course, I am carrying on. Do you get it now?
There was an incident I witnessed once. In a gas station, a fellow removed cigarette butts with ashes from his car and dumped it just outside near the gas pump. The gas station owner saw that, came with his brush and dustbin, and collected all the debris. The driver of the car watched it (perhaps in glee). Lo and behold, the owner dumped all that debris inside the fellow's car through the open window, told him "you take it" and walked away. That is what I am doing here. Need more?
Last edited by mahakavi on 14 Feb 2007, 21:11, edited 1 time in total.
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jayaram
- Posts: 1317
- Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08
I wish people would focus more on the message than the messenger. But then, this has been the bane of humanity from the time of Zarathustra, the Buddha & beyond.
Based on what little I know of the mahakavi (I mean Bharatiyar here), I am sure he would be the first one to agree with my characterization of his passing away, i.e 'he died'. He was a revolutionary of the soul, and would shun 'sweet' re-representations, however lovely they may sound...
Based on what little I know of the mahakavi (I mean Bharatiyar here), I am sure he would be the first one to agree with my characterization of his passing away, i.e 'he died'. He was a revolutionary of the soul, and would shun 'sweet' re-representations, however lovely they may sound...
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arunk
- Posts: 3424
- Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41
jayaram - its just a different way of looking (as you are probably aware). I think vgv's post was implying whether he (or we) really die?
This can be asked figuratively (as his legacy lives on) as well as philosophically (as per Hindu philosophically you say he died only if you associated him with his body etc. etc.). If you read into Bharathi's poem that VGV posted, i am not sure he would agree that "he died".
So while to almost all of us it would seem re-representation, for some it would actually be sort of the exact opposite as in it is the only correct representation, and the popular notion would be a mis-representation.
Arun
This can be asked figuratively (as his legacy lives on) as well as philosophically (as per Hindu philosophically you say he died only if you associated him with his body etc. etc.). If you read into Bharathi's poem that VGV posted, i am not sure he would agree that "he died".
So while to almost all of us it would seem re-representation, for some it would actually be sort of the exact opposite as in it is the only correct representation, and the popular notion would be a mis-representation
. Arun
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srkris
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3497
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 03:34
Mahakavi, please dont use any "****" either literally or implied by your tone.
To all: Knowledge and ignorance are secondary to decency, specially in places like these. No one is going to relish reading about Bharathiyar when the discussions are interspersed with so much of bad blood between the participants.
To all: Knowledge and ignorance are secondary to decency, specially in places like these. No one is going to relish reading about Bharathiyar when the discussions are interspersed with so much of bad blood between the participants.
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mahakavi
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jayaram
- Posts: 1317
- Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08
Govindan and Arun - I was referring only to bodily death. I am sure you will agree this did happen (and will happen) to everyone, including Bharathi?
About the other kind of non-death, I shall remain silent (just like the Zen masters). One could say pure awareness is imperishable. But as Lao Tse said, don't speak about Zen!
Buddha (and Shankara also to some extent) denied the existence of the soul, by the way.
About the other kind of non-death, I shall remain silent (just like the Zen masters). One could say pure awareness is imperishable. But as Lao Tse said, don't speak about Zen!
Buddha (and Shankara also to some extent) denied the existence of the soul, by the way.
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
I am currently reading sanatsujAtIya (udyOgaparvam (MBh)) which is a fascinating discourse on death and immortaliy. While instructing DhritarAShTra the sage proclaims:
pramAdam vai m^rityum aham bravImi sadA apramAdam am^rityutvam bravImi
(I say inattentiveness is what is called death and vigilance is immortality). Hence there is nothing called death per se! Of course he is referring to the immortality of the soul which once realized leads to immortality and the inadvertance of not realizing it leads to (bodily) death. Shankara's commentary herein is fascinating as he establishes the moot concept of advaita. Now let me not digress from Bharati!
pramAdam vai m^rityum aham bravImi sadA apramAdam am^rityutvam bravImi
(I say inattentiveness is what is called death and vigilance is immortality). Hence there is nothing called death per se! Of course he is referring to the immortality of the soul which once realized leads to immortality and the inadvertance of not realizing it leads to (bodily) death. Shankara's commentary herein is fascinating as he establishes the moot concept of advaita. Now let me not digress from Bharati!
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mahakavi
The thread is getting way off track. It is perhaps time to tie the ends and consign the thread to the archives.
Bharathi, in his song titled "veLLaittAmarai" in a tribute to goddess Saraswati, says:
nidhi migundavar poRkuvai tArIr!
nidhi kuRaindavar kaSugaL tArIr!
aduvumaRRavar vAyccol aruLir!
To the above I might add: ivai anaittum illaiyEl vasaiccol tavirttiDuvIr!
So if nothing else we need not badmouth Bharathi. If one disagrees with his greatness that is fine. The "vAyccol" that Bharathi refers to is good thoughts and words. Anyway, I like to say few final words about Bharathi.
This thread started with the intention of probing the mind of Bharathi over the course of his life. It was supposed to be a tete-a-tete with him in the imaginary travel to the past. Some of us tried to do that. Perhaps it is quite elusive. To me Bharathi's thoughts were exuberant, vibrant, passionate, and enlightening to a lot of his followers, including BharathidAsan who is himself considered an exemplary poet.
Bharathi led a live of deprivation. He worked for the life of the country and its freedom. There is a Latin maxim Extra pecunium non est vita (Without money or property there is no life). Bharathi proved that statement false. He had no money but his life had zest. He underwent so much misery for the benefit of others (the lower caste folks, people following other religions, and women in particular). In that respect he could be considered an oyster nourishing a pearl. The oyster went through the trouble of getting irritated by the grain of sand that eventually produced the pearl. The pearl does not belong to the oyster. There is a song which starts as "sippiyilE muttu adu sippikkenna sondam" (the pearl is inside the oyster but it does not belong to the oyster). Similarly when diamond is formed it is hot kitchen surrounding it with high pressure and high temperature. The product is enjoyed by those who mine it and those who use it. Bharathi was a diamond who was subjected to extreme adversity. But the sweet uses of his adversity linger amongst us.
It is appropriate to conclude with one of his poems:
tEDiccORu nidantinRu--pala
sinnajciRu kadaigaL pEsi--manam
vADit tunbamiga uzhanRu--piRar
vADap pala seyalgaL seydu--narai
kUDik kizhapparuvam eydi--kodung
kURRuk kiraiyenap pin mAyum--pala
vEDikkai manidaraip pOlE--nAn
vIzhvEnenRu ninaittAyO!
Searching for the daily morsel of food
narrating many small time tales
wallowing in misery
committing acts that trouble others
growing grey and old
becoming a victim for the grim reaper (and die)
That is what most people do but did you think I
shall also follow that path and perish?
Bharathi, in his song titled "veLLaittAmarai" in a tribute to goddess Saraswati, says:
nidhi migundavar poRkuvai tArIr!
nidhi kuRaindavar kaSugaL tArIr!
aduvumaRRavar vAyccol aruLir!
To the above I might add: ivai anaittum illaiyEl vasaiccol tavirttiDuvIr!
So if nothing else we need not badmouth Bharathi. If one disagrees with his greatness that is fine. The "vAyccol" that Bharathi refers to is good thoughts and words. Anyway, I like to say few final words about Bharathi.
This thread started with the intention of probing the mind of Bharathi over the course of his life. It was supposed to be a tete-a-tete with him in the imaginary travel to the past. Some of us tried to do that. Perhaps it is quite elusive. To me Bharathi's thoughts were exuberant, vibrant, passionate, and enlightening to a lot of his followers, including BharathidAsan who is himself considered an exemplary poet.
Bharathi led a live of deprivation. He worked for the life of the country and its freedom. There is a Latin maxim Extra pecunium non est vita (Without money or property there is no life). Bharathi proved that statement false. He had no money but his life had zest. He underwent so much misery for the benefit of others (the lower caste folks, people following other religions, and women in particular). In that respect he could be considered an oyster nourishing a pearl. The oyster went through the trouble of getting irritated by the grain of sand that eventually produced the pearl. The pearl does not belong to the oyster. There is a song which starts as "sippiyilE muttu adu sippikkenna sondam" (the pearl is inside the oyster but it does not belong to the oyster). Similarly when diamond is formed it is hot kitchen surrounding it with high pressure and high temperature. The product is enjoyed by those who mine it and those who use it. Bharathi was a diamond who was subjected to extreme adversity. But the sweet uses of his adversity linger amongst us.
It is appropriate to conclude with one of his poems:
tEDiccORu nidantinRu--pala
sinnajciRu kadaigaL pEsi--manam
vADit tunbamiga uzhanRu--piRar
vADap pala seyalgaL seydu--narai
kUDik kizhapparuvam eydi--kodung
kURRuk kiraiyenap pin mAyum--pala
vEDikkai manidaraip pOlE--nAn
vIzhvEnenRu ninaittAyO!
Searching for the daily morsel of food
narrating many small time tales
wallowing in misery
committing acts that trouble others
growing grey and old
becoming a victim for the grim reaper (and die)
That is what most people do but did you think I
shall also follow that path and perish?
Last edited by mahakavi on 15 Feb 2007, 20:06, edited 1 time in total.
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
'but do you think I shall also follow that path and perish?'
mahakavi,
You have said it!
No, the oyster in its suffering--while living a vibrant life--gave us the pearl of, essence of--life, literature and love for humanity--and how many awakenings, in how many minds! As a woman, wearing that pearl gives me pride and immeasurable joy.
'emmuyir AsaigaLum--engaLisaigaLum seyalgaLum thuNivugaLum SemmaiyuTRiDa' aruLbavan bharathi
One who guides us in our souls' yearnings, our music and arts, valor and resolves.
bhArathi...
mahakavi,
You have said it!
No, the oyster in its suffering--while living a vibrant life--gave us the pearl of, essence of--life, literature and love for humanity--and how many awakenings, in how many minds! As a woman, wearing that pearl gives me pride and immeasurable joy.
'emmuyir AsaigaLum--engaLisaigaLum seyalgaLum thuNivugaLum SemmaiyuTRiDa' aruLbavan bharathi
One who guides us in our souls' yearnings, our music and arts, valor and resolves.
bhArathi...
Last edited by arasi on 15 Feb 2007, 09:30, edited 1 time in total.
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vasya10
- Posts: 101
- Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 22:32
Dikku theriyada kattil comes with a wonderful theme where a lover is searching for her beloved in a forest.
Many renderings of "dikku teriyada kattil" are available with a standard set of charanams, but here is one by Maharajapuram Santanam with more than the usual charanams. Very captivating.
The original raga as set by Bharathiyar is "Hindustani Todi", but the ragamalika sure sounds sweet.
Afaik, its not commercial, pls let me know if it is...
http://rapidshare.com/files/17572227/09 ... bha_ms.mp3
Many renderings of "dikku teriyada kattil" are available with a standard set of charanams, but here is one by Maharajapuram Santanam with more than the usual charanams. Very captivating.
The original raga as set by Bharathiyar is "Hindustani Todi", but the ragamalika sure sounds sweet.
Afaik, its not commercial, pls let me know if it is...
http://rapidshare.com/files/17572227/09 ... bha_ms.mp3