Query for raga experts

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Lakshman
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#1 Query for raga experts

Post by Lakshman »

Here is a song by Kalyani Varadarajan whose raga is listed as sundararanjani. I could not find this raga in my database of ragas. To me it sounds like hindustani madhukauns. Is the karnatak equivalent of madhukauns called surya? Thanks

https://youtu.be/sq5dSkmVmME

Ranganayaki
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#2 Re: Query for raga experts

Post by Ranganayaki »

I am no expert, but I listened. You seem to have got the raga name down slightly wrong according to the details of the video. It says Sunadaranjani and not Sundararanjani.

It seems to use two different nishadham in the ascent and the descent. N3 in the arohana and N2 in the avarohana. So the arohana is like Madhuvanti's and the avarohana like Sumanasaranjani.

S G2 M2 P N3 S - S N2 P M2 G2 S.

I don't know about Madhukauns yet.

Ranganayaki
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#3 Re: Query for raga experts

Post by Ranganayaki »

Lakshman wrote: 03 Mar 2018, 02:09 To me it sounds like hindustani madhukauns. Is the karnatak equivalent of madhukauns called surya? Thanks

https://youtu.be/sq5dSkmVmME
I listened to this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zy-ZFYn7R0.

This is S G2 M2 P N2 S - S N2 P M2 G2 S

This is Sumanasaranjani in Carnatic music.
I was not very familiar with Surya either, but I just listened to it. That one has a Shuddha madhyama. And a higher G - antara G.

S G3 M1 D1 N2 S and the same swaras descending. You can say that this is like Hindolam with a higher Gandharam. All this makes it very different from Madhukauns.

Lakshman
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#4 Re: Query for raga experts

Post by Lakshman »

Thanks Ranganayaki for the expalantions

uday_shankar
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#5 Re: Query for raga experts

Post by uday_shankar »

Ranganayaki wrote: 03 Mar 2018, 08:28It seems to use two different nishadham in the ascent and the descent. N3 in the arohana and N2 in the avarohana. So the arohana is like Madhuvanti's and the avarohana like Sumanasaranjani.
S G2 M2 P N3 S - S N2 P M2 G2 S.
This is an erroneous assessment (please listen carefully, the violin segment may be clearer). Both arohana and avaraohana have the same N, i.e., N2. So this is sumanEsaranjani (not sumanAsaranjani). No trace of Madhuvanti.

Ranganayaki
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#6 Re: Query for raga experts

Post by Ranganayaki »

uday_shankar wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 10:15
Ranganayaki wrote: 03 Mar 2018, 08:28It seems to use two different nishadham in the ascent and the descent. N3 in the arohana and N2 in the avarohana. So the arohana is like Madhuvanti's and the avarohana like Sumanasaranjani.
S G2 M2 P N3 S - S N2 P M2 G2 S.
This is an erroneous assessment (please listen carefully, the violin segment may be clearer). Both arohana and avaraohana have the same N, i.e., N2. So this is sumanEsaranjani (not sumanAsaranjani). No trace of Madhuvanti.
Ok. I did struggle with it. Then it would be the same as madhukauns. I did not say SumanAsaranjani if you are using the spelling convention. I said Sumanasaranjani.

There were a couple of spots where Nsnp sounded like two different Nishadhas. And a different name for the raga seems unnecessary.But if you are certain, I will take your word for it.

Thank you for the correction.

uday_shankar
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#7 Re: Query for raga experts

Post by uday_shankar »

Ranganayaki wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 10:53There were a couple of spots where Nsnp sounded like two different Nishadhas.
Again I recommend listening to the violin segment, it is very clear.

Lakshman
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#8 Re: Query for raga experts

Post by Lakshman »

I found out that rAgA sUryA has the same ArOha/avarOha as sumanEsharanjani.

sureshvv
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#9 Re: Query for raga experts

Post by sureshvv »

Not true. Different ga ma etc. Plus latter raga not symmetric.

Chandrakauns and Sumanesaranjani have some similarities.

uday_shankar
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#10 Re: Query for raga experts

Post by uday_shankar »

sureshvv wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 20:18Chandrakauns and Sumanesaranjani have some similarities.
None at all.

So we have:

1. Sumanesaranjani - S G2 M2 P N2 s s N2 P M2 G2 S (Identical scale to Madhukauns)

A random example of Madhukauns:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zy-ZFYn7R0

2. Chandrakauns S G2 M1 D1 N3 s s N3 D1 M1 G2 S (Arohana and avarohana same as the arohana of kalyanavasantam). Can also be regarded as Hindolam/Malkauns with N3 instead of N2.

A random example of chandrakauns:
https://youtu.be/lRj_F5BGMhw?t=6m11s

Ranganayaki
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#11 Re: Query for raga experts

Post by Ranganayaki »

Lakshman wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 19:46 I found out that rAgA sUryA has the same ArOha/avarOha as sumanEsharanjani.
I believe what I said about Surya is correct.

S G3 M1 D1 N2 S and the same swaras in avarohana.

Sumanasaranjani - we've already said it:

S G2 M2 P N2 S and the same swaras in avarohana.

May be you can listen to the two ragas, to check how similar they are.

Ranganayaki
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#12 Re: Query for raga experts

Post by Ranganayaki »

sureshvv wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 20:18 Not true. Different ga ma etc. Plus latter raga not symmetric.

AChandrakauns and Sumanesaranjani have some similarities.
If "latter raga" refers to Sumanasaranjani, then this is incorrect. Sumanasaranjani is an audava ragam like mohana.

Chandrakauns has no Pa, a different Ma, Ni, and the presence of dha. So it is completely different from Sumanasaranjani.



uday_shankar wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 18:58 Again I recommend listening to the violin segment, it is very clear.
I will, thanks.

ganeshkant
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#13 Re: Query for raga experts

Post by ganeshkant »

I think there is a relation between chandra kauns and Madhukauns.
If grahabedam is done i.e when the M is sung as S in CK you get MK.I remember having done this long back with a key board
.
Some one may verify.

sureshvv
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#14 Re: Query for raga experts

Post by sureshvv »

Aah.. there had to be an explanation :D

Ranganayaki
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#15 Re: Query for raga experts

Post by Ranganayaki »

sureshvv wrote: 05 Mar 2018, 14:11 Aah.. there had to be an explanation :D
😁

I did verify and it's true. But as Ganeshkant put it, it's a relation.

Ranganayaki
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#16 Re: Query for raga experts

Post by Ranganayaki »

Ranganayaki wrote: 05 Mar 2018, 08:26
uday_shankar wrote: 04 Mar 2018, 18:58 Again I recommend listening to the violin segment, it is very clear.
I will, thanks.
I did, and I agree. I found at 5:13 an ascent (vocal too) that goes pnsg, and that was enough. You are right, sorry that I gave erroneous info. A clearer mind is needed sometimes.

May be it is the mistake of the uploader of the video to call it sunadaranjani when it is sumanasaranjani. Btw, I have come across this name being expressed with the spelling I prefer, and it made more sense to me. And I like what it means. I am not sure what sumanesa means.

Ranganayaki
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#17 Re: Query for raga experts

Post by Ranganayaki »

Being unsure of the N3, I got in touch a couple of days ago with the uploader, and asked her to confirm it or correct me. I woke up an hour ago to her response, but with Uday's help, my question had already been answered. I've responded, asked her about the name of the raga, and she said that she would ask her grandmother / guru (and the singer in the video) and get back to me.

uday_shankar
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#18 Re: Query for raga experts

Post by uday_shankar »

I am open to commandeering the name from sumanEsa which is meaningless, to su-manasa, which has a nice wholesome meaning :).

Ranganayaki
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#19 Re: Query for raga experts

Post by Ranganayaki »

uday_shankar wrote: 07 Mar 2018, 00:05 I am open to commandeering the name from sumanEsa which is meaningless, to su-manasa, which has a nice wholesome meaning :).
😊 Yea!! Thank you! 😊

jayaram
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#20 Re: Query for raga experts

Post by jayaram »

uday_shankar wrote: 07 Mar 2018, 00:05 I am open to commandeering the name from sumanEsa which is meaningless, to su-manasa, which has a nice wholesome meaning :).
Using sandhi rule, “sumanesha” would be sumana + Isha - meaning “Lord with good mind” (samAsa form). So the raga name sumanesharanjani is correct.
(came across this old thread just now…)

Ranganayaki
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#21 Re: Query for raga experts

Post by Ranganayaki »

I later came across that samAsa too, but didn’t remember this discussion (was surprised to see that I’ve participated here!). Anyway I now like both names.

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