Query for raga experts

[Lakshman]

Here is a song by Kalyani Varadarajan whose raga is listed as sundararanjani. I could not find this raga in my database of ragas. To me it sounds like hindustani madhukauns. Is the karnatak equivalent of madhukauns called surya? Thanks

https://youtu.be/sq5dSkmVmME

[Ranganayaki]

I am no expert, but I listened. You seem to have got the raga name down slightly wrong according to the details of the video. It says Sunadaranjani and not Sundararanjani.

It seems to use two different nishadham in the ascent and the descent. N3 in the arohana and N2 in the avarohana. So the arohana is like Madhuvanti's and the avarohana like Sumanasaranjani.

S G2 M2 P N3 S - S N2 P M2 G2 S.

I don't know about Madhukauns yet.

[Ranganayaki]

To me it sounds like hindustani madhukauns. Is the karnatak equivalent of madhukauns called surya? Thanks

https://youtu.be/sq5dSkmVmME

I listened to this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zy-ZFYn7R0.

This is S G2 M2 P N2 S - S N2 P M2 G2 S

This is Sumanasaranjani in Carnatic music.
I was not very familiar with Surya either, but I just listened to it. That one has a Shuddha madhyama. And a higher G - antara G.

S G3 M1 D1 N2 S and the same swaras descending. You can say that this is like Hindolam with a higher Gandharam. All this makes it very different from Madhukauns.

[Lakshman]

Thanks Ranganayaki for the expalantions

[uday_shankar]

It seems to use two different nishadham in the ascent and the descent. N3 in the arohana and N2 in the avarohana. So the arohana is like Madhuvanti's and the avarohana like Sumanasaranjani.
S G2 M2 P N3 S - S N2 P M2 G2 S.

This is an erroneous assessment (please listen carefully, the violin segment may be clearer). Both arohana and avaraohana have the same N, i.e., N2. So this is sumanEsaranjani (not sumanAsaranjani). No trace of Madhuvanti.

[Ranganayaki]

It seems to use two different nishadham in the ascent and the descent. N3 in the arohana and N2 in the avarohana. So the arohana is like Madhuvanti's and the avarohana like Sumanasaranjani.
S G2 M2 P N3 S - S N2 P M2 G2 S.

This is an erroneous assessment (please listen carefully, the violin segment may be clearer). Both arohana and avaraohana have the same N, i.e., N2. So this is sumanEsaranjani (not sumanAsaranjani). No trace of Madhuvanti.

Ok. I did struggle with it. Then it would be the same as madhukauns. I did not say SumanAsaranjani if you are using the spelling convention. I said Sumanasaranjani.

There were a couple of spots where Nsnp sounded like two different Nishadhas. And a different name for the raga seems unnecessary.But if you are certain, I will take your word for it.

Thank you for the correction.

[uday_shankar]

There were a couple of spots where Nsnp sounded like two different Nishadhas.

Again I recommend listening to the violin segment, it is very clear.

[Lakshman]

I found out that rAgA sUryA has the same ArOha/avarOha as sumanEsharanjani.

[sureshvv]

Not true. Different ga ma etc. Plus latter raga not symmetric.

Chandrakauns and Sumanesaranjani have some similarities.

[uday_shankar]

Chandrakauns and Sumanesaranjani have some similarities.

None at all.

So we have:

1. Sumanesaranjani - S G2 M2 P N2 s s N2 P M2 G2 S (Identical scale to Madhukauns)

A random example of Madhukauns:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zy-ZFYn7R0

2. Chandrakauns S G2 M1 D1 N3 s s N3 D1 M1 G2 S (Arohana and avarohana same as the arohana of kalyanavasantam). Can also be regarded as Hindolam/Malkauns with N3 instead of N2.

A random example of chandrakauns:
https://youtu.be/lRj_F5BGMhw?t=6m11s

[Ranganayaki]

I found out that rAgA sUryA has the same ArOha/avarOha as sumanEsharanjani.

I believe what I said about Surya is correct.

S G3 M1 D1 N2 S and the same swaras in avarohana.

Sumanasaranjani - we've already said it:

S G2 M2 P N2 S and the same swaras in avarohana.

May be you can listen to the two ragas, to check how similar they are.

[Ranganayaki]

Not true. Different ga ma etc. Plus latter raga not symmetric.

AChandrakauns and Sumanesaranjani have some similarities.

If "latter raga" refers to Sumanasaranjani, then this is incorrect. Sumanasaranjani is an audava ragam like mohana.

Chandrakauns has no Pa, a different Ma, Ni, and the presence of dha. So it is completely different from Sumanasaranjani.

Again I recommend listening to the violin segment, it is very clear.

I will, thanks.

[ganeshkant]

I think there is a relation between chandra kauns and Madhukauns.
If grahabedam is done i.e when the M is sung as S in CK you get MK.I remember having done this long back with a key board
.
Some one may verify.

[sureshvv]

Aah.. there had to be an explanation

[Ranganayaki]

Aah.. there had to be an explanation

I did verify and it's true. But as Ganeshkant put it, it's a relation.

[Ranganayaki]

Again I recommend listening to the violin segment, it is very clear.

I will, thanks.

I did, and I agree. I found at 5:13 an ascent (vocal too) that goes pnsg, and that was enough. You are right, sorry that I gave erroneous info. A clearer mind is needed sometimes.

May be it is the mistake of the uploader of the video to call it sunadaranjani when it is sumanasaranjani. Btw, I have come across this name being expressed with the spelling I prefer, and it made more sense to me. And I like what it means. I am not sure what sumanesa means.

[Ranganayaki]

Being unsure of the N3, I got in touch a couple of days ago with the uploader, and asked her to confirm it or correct me. I woke up an hour ago to her response, but with Uday's help, my question had already been answered. I've responded, asked her about the name of the raga, and she said that she would ask her grandmother / guru (and the singer in the video) and get back to me.

[uday_shankar]

I am open to commandeering the name from sumanEsa which is meaningless, to su-manasa, which has a nice wholesome meaning .

[Ranganayaki]

I am open to commandeering the name from sumanEsa which is meaningless, to su-manasa, which has a nice wholesome meaning .

Yea!! Thank you!

[jayaram]

I am open to commandeering the name from sumanEsa which is meaningless, to su-manasa, which has a nice wholesome meaning .

Using sandhi rule, “sumanesha” would be sumana + Isha - meaning “Lord with good mind” (samAsa form). So the raga name sumanesharanjani is correct.
(came across this old thread just now…)

[Ranganayaki]

I later came across that samAsa too, but didn’t remember this discussion (was surprised to see that I’ve participated here!). Anyway I now like both names.

[uday_shankar]

I am open to commandeering the name from sumanEsa which is meaningless, to su-manasa, which has a nice wholesome meaning .

Using sandhi rule, “sumanesha” would be sumana + Isha - meaning “Lord with good mind” (samAsa form). So the raga name sumanesharanjani is correct.
(came across this old thread just now…)

Wow... didn't know I wrote such drivel

[skbc1]

I had a question for raga experts.
Are there carnatic ragas which use both Rishabhams (Shuddha, Chatushruthi)?
Ditto for ragas which use both Gandharams - the only one I know here is Dwijavanthi. Are there others?

Thanks,
bhaskar

[KKishore]

Sindhu Bhairavi is one i can quickly think of as it can use both rishabhams imho as i see in its various forms used typically in lighter pieces like bhajans etc.
Similarly Bhashanga variations of KApi(piloo in HM) use both gandharam i think.

[KKishore]

Also I think Technically some popular/more known vivadhi ragas from chakras of 1,6,7 and 12 will qualify for using both Rishabhams or both Gandharams in addition to some Misra forms of popular ragas too (shivaranjani,maand etc).

[skbc1]

Thank you so much, Shri K Kishore!I was curious about this since I was aware of many ragas which use M1 & M2, or D1 & D2, or N2 & N3.