What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

[ganesh_mourthy]

This question has long intrigued me and I hope I am close to finding an answer. Looking forward to hearing from others.

Basically, there is a difference between good singing and an inherently good voice. Even as we speak we can notice it. There are people whose voice gets raspy, and shaky and there are some who give a feeling that they are gifted with a well-controlled voice. Sometimes, you hear a good voice lent to a movie actor and it makes you feel that he/she is personified of whatever character the voice depicts.

I still remember the Mohan and Surender voice used to give a sauve to Mohan especially if you remember the film, Mounaraagam. I used to know a voice actor who lent voice to famous yesteryear heroines. But when she spoke otherwise in a social gathering it was not so. It is a type of affectation that makes them sound appealing. You train it in a certain way.

Now coming to singing there are certain voices that I feel who had worked more than others consciously to bring out that charm and a dulcet tone in them. This is certainly not inherent.
I used to be of the wrong opinion that a strong control over pitch and clarity when you sing is enough to produce good music. It produces good music technically, but the charm is an entirely different aspect.

Then there is a singing part, intricate control of notes both subtle and clear movements. You might think once you achieve that you are going to sound amazing. But no, unfortunately.

A singer could be singing at different strengths at different places completely out of his control but still in perfect pitch and micro notes. It could be soft at some point, strong at another point, whispery at one time ...yet it could be perfect pitch with perfect curves and oscillations. This is like moving from SA to ma in an Indian violin, sliding back in a Chinese violin, and one another note in a Stradivarius violin all in perfect pitch. You can feel that sweet spot you are achieving for a fleeting moment with your Stradivarius violin in your throat, but it disappears right away.

In our classical music (both Hindustani and Carnatic ) we do not wish to enter this area much as we are busy with other technical aspects. But I think Western classical music does do, as well it is a desired quality in film music. I have talked to a few classical singers about this and they find it hard to sink in them. Some feel that it is not even needed.

But this quality really is captivating and it is hard to master. When I hear a great voice, I see that they can consciously bring out and play the different violin within them that they can manipulate within seconds with great precision. This is a meticulous use of voice and this is not inherent. It takes years.

From a musician's point of view, your ear sharpens over the years. You hear many things that you never heard before. That sophistication can discern many subtle sounds.

I was listening to a lot of BMK these days and I feel that apart from his other vidwats he has also worked on this aspect.

I am starting to feel that it doesn't hurt to set aside a part of your learning time to hone this skill because after a while you lose the ability to maneuver your voice..it is the voice that maneuvres you.

Ganesh mourthy

[RSR]

What do you think of Julie Andrews songs in Sound of music and MAry poppins? Didsclaimer,,i do not know of western light music. I am intrrested in your opinion.

[ganesh_mourthy]

I have listened to the songs of the sound of music several times. It is definitely soothing and has great songs by her. And me neither, I do not know much about the light songs across the pond.

Celion dion is another I immediately remember. For cinema singing it is very much essential as you have to move from genre to genre and all that you have is limited hours with your Music Directors - one has to be conscious of the voice always and there cannot be a bad day hence bad voice.

[shankarank]

In our classical music (both Hindustani and Carnatic ) we do not wish to enter this area much as we are busy with other technical aspects. But I think Western classical music does do, as well it is a desired quality in film music. I have talked to a few classical singers about this and they find it hard to sink in them. Some feel that it is not even needed.

This has been said from various early days. From the official seat of musicology, this one: Prof SRJ once quoted his Guru (Sri Musiri) that, as much as the voice gets better, music becomes less and less .

We have the abstraction called rAgA. A western orchestra for me, is a bunch of horns blowing off . Unless you lock yourself into that abstraction of a rAgA, there is no hope. If you do, then you can transcend these barriers.

There will be popular, good voice musicians. And many good voices still want to try their luck with Carnatic music! .

Question is, do you want to chase popular musicians? Or be a popular rasika instead ? And this is not to say that you need to gain some knowledge in the conventional sense of it. The very act of sitting and listening is knowledge and experiential inputs are knowledge as well.

Oh! I forgot. You can try the other method. Be autistic to the melodic spectrum and train the attention on the rhythm. ARI format has ensured that Alap is minimal. For 20 minutes you can twiddle your smart phone. As long as there are not jarring (pisurus) sounds, it shouldn't bother you!

[ganesh_mourthy]

Hello Shankarank

Yes I wanted you to cut in and you did with some quirky inputs and yet valuable. Bunch of horn blowing ? ..oh well then expand the spectrogram of ours and all you see is kaakkaa kaalaala kirukkunaa maadhiri. Very few are good kirukkal.

You practice the raaga and krithi with the daily concession to your voice condition , clearing up your throat....little orakka .. and less orakka .... sangathi vandhuduchU .... super ( aanaa ethana pisuru ... . kosuru ok...adhellaa.m OK ... sangadhi vandhuduthu illa ...
this is what your are going to get into your daily practice.

[vasanthakokilam]

ganesh_mourthy, Nicely written setup of the topic

Shnkarank, why can't we have both? It is not that some uncertainty principle governs such things

[ganesh_mourthy]

I remember watching this years ago , and it makes all sense to me now .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIqUX2QbLGw

[thenpaanan]

ganesh_mourthy, Nicely written setup of the topic

Shnkarank, why can't we have both? It is not that some uncertainty principle governs such things

Indeed. Why can't we have both? I can only speak from my own experience. Some years ago I asked the musician who taught my daughters Western voice to teach me as well. At first he demurred saying he did not know anything about Indian music. I told him I wanted to learn the mechanics of voice, how to produce sound sweetly and effortlessly and he agreed. He would listen to me sing my Carnatic kritis and then ask me questions. After a few sessions he got the hang of what I was doing and then started giving me voice exercises. These exercises have everything to do with using the voice apparatus properly: singing perfectly on pitch every time, extracting more resonance, moving across registers without cracking, etc. I have managed to incorporate almost all of it into my singing. I think that my Carnatic music improved significantly but that is not for me to judge. I even taught a voice workshop for Indian music singers explaining the techniques and exercises that can benefit us. I cannot say that there was a uniformly positive response. The people who liked it liked it and a lot more people were unmoved. C'est la vie.

-T

[shankarank]

Since the opening post mentions Dr. BMK, it is not very difficult to see that his appeal , is no less due to it's closeness to the modern (modern of the 20th century) playback singing. This is not to undermine his genuis and his position and stature as one that is deeply entrenched in Carnatic music.

He is one bin and all other musicians will be in another. If an AI classifier were to be trained with a set of "Objective" parameters and asked to classify voice textures, he will surely fall closer to playback voice, in clustering.

A casual conversation post Dinner, when the idea of him to be honored with Bharat ratna came up, a musician simply reacted : " Oh no, then everybody will ask why we are all not singing like him!"

So @ganesh_murthy, you would have already unnerved a few musicians.

This I say knowing the tastes of @ganesh_mourthy a bit as well and having been there myself. Pardon me a bit, if I am overstepping!

In that regard, it is worthwhile to look at Playback singers, infact a remarkable one that gave what sounded like Authentic concert music.

K J Yesudas!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLFsT7Ku9IY

This is an old recording , unavailable in the 80s. Our departed forum member CRama, wrote about Kerala musicians in Sruti and in one of the articles covered Sri Krishnan Kutty Nair who was a stock accompanist to KJY. CRama mentions about a last concert in 1985 where Sri Krishnan Kutty Nair passed away, At that time oblivious of even a KJY concert happening in my place, I was hunting his studio recordings in the shops near the Meenakshi temple. When will a new release come?

The above 1976 concert contains a nice trisram svaram, which I would have known about it a decade earlier, were full length concerts were to be made available then!!

We also need to inquire into what sort of sound we are aiming to produce in this music. If you listen to KJY's Karaharapriya, nowhere he lands in the signature kampita gandharam of KHP. He glosses over it. Sri MC on his return sticks to that.

So that alone will make his presentation non Carnatic , I suppose.

But DaasaNNan knows, for his music and it's target audience, that one is full of pisuru!

For that how does it matter what the voice is?

If I were to wear that hat and look at innocently the Carnatic mileu , they would appear to be from another planet!

[thenpaanan]

Since the opening post mentions Dr. BMK, it is not very difficult to see that his appeal , is no less due to it's closeness to the modern (modern of the 20th century) playback singing. This is not to undermine his genuis and his position and stature as one that is deeply entrenched in Carnatic music.

He is one bin and all other musicians will be in another. If an AI classifier were to be trained with a set of "Objective" parameters and asked to classify voice textures, he will surely fall closer to playback voice, in clustering.

A casual conversation post Dinner, when the idea of him to be honored with Bharat ratna came up, a musician simply reacted : " Oh no, then everybody will ask why we are all not singing like him!"

So @ganesh_murthy, you would have already unnerved a few musicians.

The jugalbandhis between BMK and Bhimsen Joshi are quite famous, and most of us of a certain age would have seen them on TV or elsewhere, and inevitably made comparisons between the singers. I read somewhere that BMK said about these jugalbandhis with his "characteristic" humility "I can do everything they do but they cannot do everything I do". Watching these performances as a kid I felt that Bhimsen was the better singer even though I was already learning Carnatic music by that time. But I have also met several people since then who told me that Bhimsen's voice was a "mere shadow" next to BMK's.

Once you hear this argument, you realize that there is no such thing as a universally good voice. It depends on too many factors and is basically pointless, AI notwithstanding. Once a beggar singing on the street has transported me in a way no vidwAn has done. But I never ran into that singer a second time.

Best to say that BMK is one of the great voices of Carnatic music. Why does he have to be the only one?

-T

[shankarank]

I have slowly started to listen to Venkatesh Kumar few of them, Raag Durga for e.g. I have attended Dr BMK/Jasraj Jugal live , since it was featured in IIT Mardi Gras once.

Hindustani musicians , as a naive listener focusing on mere resonance I observe, hone their voices on basic reasonance. Their rAgas like Diskshitar school is cogniscent of vAdi/samvAdi.

In fact a TNS follower ( one of among that whole family closely associated) , he is the only one, a fan of Dr. BMK in that family, pointed out that Dr BMK's Brugas have dissonance, not that I hadn't noticed that before and they all then in one voice exclaimed how TNS's brighas in his good times were well aligned.

Dr BMK is still a Carnatic musician, and the best voice doing things in CM way of presenting things will have wear and tear! It is not that those fast svara prastAras are essential to this music, but unfortunately are part of producing a performance.

HM musicians also have speed singing, and I have no idea how they managed to control their voice damage! May be inherently it is a different methodology.

And I have heard musicians mention, that Dr BMK practices in lower Sruti than he performs and they also wondered , how then he is able to sing in higher Sruti.

[rajeshnat]

Thenpaanan,

1.Personally CM is a super set of HM .
2.CM has mrudangam and HM has tabla
3.CM has violin continuous instrument and HM has harmonium that is discontinuous instrument

WIth above truth told as such in raw terms , Dr BMK is a great vaggeyakkara , is he a great singer very early years yes like especially few thyagaraja krithis and ashtapadis , THe overarching truth is that there is so much ambiguity in BMK raga lakshana approach . I have heard few concerts of Dr BMK live , when he takes say prati madhyama raga alapana no one knows what ragam he has taken . Once in NGS i went to his concert where Embar Kannan the violinist accompanied and asked what raga BMK took is that vachaspathi or hemavati , kannan said he also did not know that prati was a sub main that day. That day the legend UKS played . The review of UKS -Embar kannan -UKS is there in this jungle

All said BMK achieved critical mass of count of rasikas with oru naal pOdumA in his first half and chinna kannan azhaikiran in second half. I would have exalted him with his voice and approach had i not heard a TRS-SRK-KVN-maha santhanam or the bigger jambhavans half a generation before like what i call carnatic vocal trinitiy MMI-SSI-GNB.

I know few present musicians whom I adore go gA gA with Dr BMK , but i find not much depth and i lose grip on Dr BMK as he surely ends with dilution of classicism . Personally the voice of Bhimsen Joshi is more appealing than BMK , but hey the former has tabla and harmonium...

[sam]

@rajeshnat

3.CM has violin continous instrument and HM has keyboard has discontinous instrument

HM has ever had Saarangi and tabla.
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However, some HM greats used Harmonium as supporting instrument.
I think , Harmonium is different from keyboard. Keyboard has more octaves, A low cost alternative to Piano -- but a wind instrument.
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Generally, Muslim vocalists are mostly accompanied by Sarangi.
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..

[thenpaanan]

I have slowly started to listen to Venkatesh Kumar few of them, Raag Durga for e.g. I have attended Dr BMK/Jasraj Jugal live , since it was featured in IIT Mardi Gras once.

Venkatesh Kumar is indeed a fantastic singer in my opinion. I have made my children listen to him a lot as they learn HM.

In fact a TNS follower ( one of among that whole family closely associated) , he is the only one, a fan of Dr. BMK in that family, pointed out that Dr BMK's Brugas have dissonance, not that I hadn't noticed that before and they all then in one voice exclaimed how TNS's brighas in his good times were well aligned.

Here again the young BMK's voice production was better. As he aged the quality seemed to drop. Even in his older days, he was head and shoulders above some of his younger peers in voice quality.

Dr BMK is still a Carnatic musician, and the best voice doing things in CM way of presenting things will have wear and tear! It is not that those fast svara prastAras are essential to this music, but unfortunately are part of producing a performance.

HM musicians also have speed singing, and I have no idea how they managed to control their voice damage! May be inherently it is a different methodology.

HM musicians also go through voice damage. You can see some senior HM artists these days whose voice has become hoarse or at least audibly more hoarse than before.

Two differences between HM and CM in this regard -- first, HM allows more flexibility in singing. If your voice does not want to go to the higher octaves on a given day (and it can happen to even the best) you are allowed to give a good concert without spending too much time in the upper registers (above the tAra shadja). In CM on the other hand, most compositions require you spend a good amount of time in the upper register, so much so that you have the phenomenon of singers gradually reducing their concert pitch over the years. The second reason is that HM singers spend an enormous amount of time relatively speaking in honing their voice quality in their younger years where they instinctively learn good voice technique by sheer dint of practice. There is no comparison between the two systems in this regard. Both systems are imitating each other these days in teaching and performance but the gap in voice quality is still considerable.

I have now seen a decade of students in both traditions grow up side by side. They start at age seven or so and are put through their paces. By the time they are ready to exit high school, the CM students are giving concerts replete with a dozen ragas, different kinds of swaraprasthara, even an RTP for the gifted ones etc. On the other hand the HM student, usually giving a "vishArad" concert before High school graduation, gives a performance much simpler in intellectual content, with just one or two ragas in the mix. (In fact I know one student who was made to practice just one raga for a whole year before his vishArad).

Some differences are easy to spot - the CM singer seems more capable at least on the surface but the subtler differences take some effort to spot. The HM student's voice is stronger over the course of two hours of singing, more stable in sruthi-alignment, and seemingly less effort overall than the CM's voice. Because the performers are young, their voices are supple and can mask any deficiencies. This gap widens over time as these students eventually become full-fledged performers. In both traditions, it seems the performers are unable to significantly transcend the limitations of what they were taught/practiced as youngsters.

I am not saying that CM should become more like HM or anything like that. These are just my observations. All cultural practices that are based on tradition will have their strengths and gaps. It is what it is.

The voice problem is not an unsurmountable obstacle for CM either -- Western opera singers spend their entire careers in the upper registers -- it is just that CM has not (yet) evolved a singing strategy and a pedagogy to go with it that leads to a sustainable career for a singer. Especially these days with hypersensitive mic's and massive increase in the number of performances this need will go from just for a few singers to almost all of us.

-T

[thenpaanan]

And I have heard musicians mention, that Dr BMK practices in lower Sruti than he performs and they also wondered , how then he is able to sing in higher Sruti.

I think there is not much point in trying to do what BMK might have done. In my mind, he was a highly instinctive singer (as you can tell from the way he performed) and supremely gifted (as you can tell from the various instruments he played).

I know a student of his personally and from this telling it seems to me that even BMK himself did not know how/why he was so good. For all we know, he might have been able to churn out superlative performances *in spite of* rather than because of his practice regimen (which I learned was rather minimal in his later years in any case).

Also, voice being such an individual instrument, every singer has to figure out a practice regimen that works for them. What works for others seldom works for you without significant customization. Unfortunately only the good teachers know this.

-T

[thenpaanan]

Thenpaanan,

1.Personally CM is a super set of HM .
2.CM has mrudangam and HM has tabla
3.CM has violin continuous instrument and HM has harmonium that is discontinuous instrument

Why do you say that CM is a superset of HM, (or equivalently, that HM is a subset of CM)? It seems hard to support such a statement for art forms.

-T

[sam]

Personally CM is a super set of HM

.
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It would be more correct to say that CM and HM are two main subsets of
INDIAN Classical music.......in addition to Thamizh classical music right from sangam era.
Some people claim, perhaps rightly, that CM owes much to ancient Thamizh music.
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Mahenfra Pallavan(600 AD) is said to have been an expert YAzh player and musicologist. However, it cannot be called Carnatic music...we dont know....
Research scholars can try to unearth any codified music from Gupota era atleast upto 1300 AD.
Carnatic music begins from 1300 AD. the same time that the HM stream branched off.
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While searching for renditions of Thyaagaraaja swami DHIVYA NAAMA KRUTHIS, numbering 86 I was struck by the fact that BMK only has sung most of them. ThyAgarAja would have given more importance to such group singing songs which BMK only has followed.
https://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopi ... 46#p383846
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I understand that BMK learned his music from a disciple of a direct disciple of Manambuchaavadi venkata subbiah, a junior cousin of Saint Thyagaraja and longest associated student of the bard,.
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Manambuchavad7i taught Susarla Dakshinamurty Sastri who took Tyagaraja's compositions to Andhra

..

under the tutelage of Parupalli Ramakrishnayya Pantulu, a direct descendant of the shishya parampara (lineage of disciples) of Thyagaraja

It is not proper to say that BMK became famous for some of his film songs. A sacrilege.

[thenpaanan]

Research scholars can try to unearth any codified music from Gupota era atleast upto 1300 AD.
Carnatic music begins from 1300 AD. the same time that the HM stream branched off.

Whatever the history, the Carnatic music we have today is what we have. It is composed of layers and layers of previous generations attempting expression of the abstract, building on what had they had been given. We are part of that eternal evolution.

The music is alive precisely because it has changed all the time. Come to think of it, the last major/comprehensive change in Carnatic music happened in the time of the Trinity or just before them with the influence of the bhakti expression coming from Kathakars, and a minor one in first half of the twentieth century with the creation of the concert format.

It has now been some three hundred years since that major revolution and perhaps time for Carnatic music to go through another revolutionary change. Who knows - we may be in the beginning of such a revolution already and not know it!

-T

[rajeshnat]

Thenpaanan,

1.Personally CM is a super set of HM .
2.CM has mrudangam and HM has tabla
3.CM has violin continuous instrument and HM has harmonium that is discontinuous instrument

Why do you say that CM is a superset of HM, (or equivalently, that HM is a subset of CM)? It seems hard to support such a statement for art forms.

-T

1.When Maha santhanam sang a meera bhajan "Barse Badariya in Brindavani" in one of the live concert that i attended, at that time i neither knew meera bhajan or may be even HM that much . And then many many HM singers singing the same song Barse Badariya, few of them were very good but tabla rhythm is not as good as mrudangam addition to CM .

2.Also a detailed RTP in say Darbari KAnadA with an extensive thaanam is giving more raga bhaava oomph than any of the darbAri renditions of HM with any kayaaal .

Few HM musicians are exceptionally good like this MallikArjun Mansoor (I will treat him like equivalent of MDR, he is just too good), I also like Bhimsen Joshi and out of current lot Venkatesh is also good . But most of the HM musicians are not impressing me with enough musical oomph , appears bit like a CM concert where there is a big speech and award function that had canibalized the concert.

[shankarank]

Research scholars can try to unearth any codified music from Gupota era atleast upto 1300 AD.
Carnatic music begins from 1300 AD. the same time that the HM stream branched off.

If you read Rangaramanuja Iyengar's initial chapters on SangIta Ratnakara, he pegs the timeline as 1920 around which gurukala system unraveled and lot of Srutis in usage were all lost!

According to him, no evidence of any music in North India exists prior to HM. Malik Kafur took musicians from south to the north!

He laments about lack of documentation and is very scathing on "ear and rote" method of learning , understandable as he has a writer agenda .

Still he labors to find connections to the old treatize. I am yet to peruse the whole book!

How else do you get gamakas , but for ear and rote or at least just being around , paying attention and be influenced?

An ordinary Cine music purveyor of 1970(s)/80(s), who never took this old music sounds seriously, once tried his voice to sing "karpagavalli nin" and could not bring out the gamaka even in Anandabhairavi even the first line.

A raga whose spread is from Vizhianagaram to Kanyakumari in all variations , folk/bhajan/theatre what not, including the high dose Suddha-dhaivata one from Dr BMK ( listen to his Himacala tanaya put out by Murali Ganam channel). Sri Nedunuri is on record about this rAga having wide usage in Bhajan traditions of Andhra.

Sin of residing even 20 km away from Mylapore central in 70(s) had it's phalan!

[sam]

I think srinivasaraos series of blog posts on Indian music from ancient times ,,tries to give a correct picture about INDIAN MUSIC, HM and CM. Even he is not mentioning much , if at all, about Thamizh music.

https://sreenivasaraos.com/2015/04/21/m ... -part-one/
this is a detailed 22 part blog series. Very informative.
---
Gupta era Indian music (200-600 AD) may give the correct picture. For one thing, it is universally accepted as the GOLDEN ERA of INDIA in every field- be it- Sanskrit literature, Medicine, Astronomy, Mathematics, Fine Arts and Theater, Administration, co-existence of Buddhism, Jainism, Vedic religion, PuraNic religion, ALLINDIA perspective, -----unification of almost entire India -- not by war of conquest but by the ancient tradition of acceptance of leadership of a chakravartin by smaller kingdoms.

Sanskrit was then the universal language of the Intellectuals and thought leaders.
Dr,KALAAM marvels at the advances in pure mathematics, medicine and astronomy during those centuries,
As a student of history, I am constrained to point out that in those four centuries, the far south Tamil country was ruled by KALABRAS a tribal group said to have come from present Raayalaseema.

That was the period of jain influence and literature of ethics. No centralized government at all but hundreds of local rulers more based on tribal and caste loyalty.
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How did Thamizh music develoop then? possibly by courtesans.--
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srinivasaraos opines that even Indian music then was closely tied not so much with any religious function but with plays.---enacted both in royal presence and street corners, ..
After all, SG KITTAPPA plays were more popular and had greater reach than traditional CM.
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Talking of innovation, Amir Khusru, a persian, had invented Sitar and a dozen more such instruments of similar nature based on resonance.
That was after 1300.
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So it leaves a very big gap in our understanding of evolution of INDIAN MUSIC, srinivasaraos series not withstanding.
Specifically, we should concentrate on musicology texts of the GUPTA era - 200 AD to 600 AD.
Deccan was then under another great dynasty- the VAKATAKA dynasty- a peaceful follow up of SATHAVAHANA dynasty. 200 BC to 200 AD.

Upanishad type of learning by sitting by the guru and learning by the ear is all very nice but limits the spread of any science.
@shankarank sir,
Without written text, there is no progress-
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@ThenpaaNan advocates evolution and progress of CM. Well and good.
What exactly does he want CM to become?
What is the hint that the evolution is already taking place?
======
WCM and IM are fundamentally different.
Use of HM and WCM instruments may be the way forward.
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Kutchery era is drawing to a close, The centenary year 2026 of MMA
may be the swansong of concert hall music,
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The web and telecast music is the immediate future.
Ofcourse , voice culture would continue to be relevant,

[thenpaanan]

@ThenpaaNan advocates evolution and progress of CM. Well and good.
What exactly does he want CM to become?

I don't want CM to become anything. It will take its due course irrespective of what I want it to be. CM is the one of the many ways to attain "samadhi" and I am fortunate to have learned it to the extent that occasionally and very briefly I get to experience it. It is magnificent and beyond description in words. But if you ask me what I would like to see happen in the short term -- I would like to see a way for CM singers to sing in a way that protects their voice in the long run of multiple decades. It likely means a radical rethinking of how we teach CM to youngsters. Every art form is a combined product of its practitioners over time. If CM singers learn to sing in a more relaxed manner it will surely take CM to even greater dimensions of bliss.

What is the hint that the evolution is already taking place?

First of all, evolution is not necessarily linear. It is a zigzag path that may sometimes go backwards as well as forwards (whatever those directions mean). My take on evolution is on display in Cleveland every year as an example. There you can see many a youngster show utter brilliance in CM at an age when many of us were content with playing marbles and flying kites. The sheer number and consistent standard on hand is unprecedented. Why is this evolution -- because many if not most of these youngsters are not deeply connected to Indian traditions except for the music. My guess is that these new generations will reinterpret CM in their own way that will be both unprecedented and also in line with tradition. Closer to the heartland you can see how the content of concerts is slowly changing. If you allow enough of a historical window we have gone from concerts that were mostly pallavis to concerts chock full of trinity kritis to concerts with kritis with more varied content and so on. That may seem like small changes but evolution can be slow. But we cannot deny that the concerts of today are quite different from the concerts of 1925. Where will this process take us? Who knows? Maybe CM will eventually move away from its predominantly religious moorings. Maybe new composers will compose kritis in new mediums and languages. Maybe there will be standard purely instrumental compositions in CM (like the ones some of our contemporary violinists have done). Maybe there will be a new instrument with new possibilities. Maybe there will be more orchestral compositions in CM. So and so forth. The possibilities are endless.

-T

[sam]

@thenpaaNan sir,
Thank you for making your stand clear.
I beg to differ entirely.
What you have in mind, is pre-Shyaama Saastry/ Thyagaraja type of music.
But Sage Vidhyaranya had specifically created CM in 1300 AD with a definite political and national purpose and the Daasar poets and minstrels had nurtured it.
Thyagaraja with nearly 650 kruthis, not a single jaavali there, showed the real purpose of carnatic music.
He himself has composed 20 kruthis on Naadhopaasana
https://thyagaraja-kirtans.blogspot.com ... asana.html
. But frowned upon mere music without religious devotion.
If we carefully study the sangeetha parampara, almost all the leading vocalists belonged to Thyagaraja heritage.
BMK was third generation direct lineage.
We are discussing CM only and CM is devotion-oriented and SAhithyam oriented. Naturally, a good voice is important.
As for blissful exuberance through music, it is very common in choir music, hindi bajans and bajan tradition of naama siddhantham school in CM also.
..
In HM, muslim vocalists can easily lift our souls to heaven by pure music.
.
You are overlooking technology. AIR and DD Vaadhya vrundha programs were presenting chaste CM in grand orchestration.
But they were playing CM kruthis. Same is true of legends in Nagaswaram, flute, veeNa , gottuvaadhyam, violin, clarinet, mandolin and saxaphone

We are talking about CM vocalists only. If they sing with orchestra accompaniment, ( Ilayaraja is already doing that, even using WCM idioms)
live telecast makes it possible ,though not in a concert plarform of a sabha. How is it different from film music?
It can only be termed Light Classical music.
..
If Thyagaraja kruthis and the lineage matters so little, why name the song and dance festival, an Aaraadhana and Thyaagaraaja aaraadhana at that?

In one stroke, your vision of change, makes the saahithyam part of entire CM eco system irrelevant.
In many families like ours, singing keertans in family pooja room is not mere art or entertainment. It is a form of worship of God.
So is Choir music.
In South Indian environment only, CM keertans make sense.
.

[thenpaanan]

@Sam

I don't have an argument with much of what you say but my singular question is this. Why should CM be one thing or the other? Why can't it be all of the above? The things you point out are in no way mutually exclusive.

Is CM such a small tent that we cannot accommodate multiple tastes? Why do we fear that we would begin to sound like "film music" or anything else for that matter? If some of CM sounds like "light music" to somebody so be it. What's the harm?

No one is going to replace standard CM repertoire any time soon. What is the problem with extending it?

-T

[sam]

@ThenpaaNan Sir,

Maybe CM will eventually move away from its predominantly religious moorings

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No Sir. CM as we know is purely religious.

Maybe new composers will compose kritis in new mediums and languages

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No problem if the theme is Hindu religious.
May be Maraathi. RaGA are already doing it nicely. It should be an Indian language. Definitely should not be English. Travesty.

Maybe there will be standard purely instrumental compositions in CM (like the ones some of our contemporary violinists have done)

.
They have already done that . Welcome.
Still they are playing standard CM raagas and kruthis.
Chowdiah did it nearly a century back

Maybe there will be a new instrument with new possibilities

.
Chitra-veNu by uday-shankar in this forum.
Orthodox Vocalists have RTP. But after singing many kruthis.

Maybe there will be more orchestral compositions in CM.

.
As already pointed out, AIR Vaadhya Vruntham have been giving us grand orchestration of carnatic music kruthis.. .

[thenpaanan]

@ThenpaaNan Sir,


No Sir. CM as we know is purely religious.

In your view, is CM just an extension of religion then? Religion is much more than CM, so CM can at best only be a subset.

-T

[sam]

@thenpaaNan sir,
We cannot even think of Carnatic music without the Dasa saahithyams and keerhans. They are entirely hindu religious.
By belittlinng the kruthis of Thyaagaraaja ( 650 kruthis), Of Shyama saastry( 70 kruthis), one rejects their universally accepted contribution to carnatic music.
Muthuswami Dikshitar krutis ( about 550 )are totally about Hindu temples, puranas and traditions .
All the desciples of Thyagaraja lineage like Maha Vaidyanatha sivan and Patnam subramanya iyer were religious composers.
So were those of poochi iengar, harikesanalloor muthaiah baagavathar, mysore Vasudevacharya and those of papanasam sivan and Neelakantas sivan , his guru. From Telugu area, we had annamayya, Ramadasa and kshtrayya. Purely Hindu religious.
Swathi Thirunal, with great exposure to all types of music sang on Lord Padhmanaba swami.
..
Even pre-trinity tamil composers like Muthu thaandavar, Marimutha pillai and arunachalakavi, sang on hindu gods.
Gopalkrushna bharathy, a junior contemporary of Thyagaraja learned HM and sang on Nataraja only.
May be Munsif Vedanayagam pillai, an exception, but he did not compose specifically on christian themes.

Where is CM without their saahithyams and musical contribution?

[Nick H]

This thread is about voice, not about what is sung. Except in the context of the entire forum, ie carnatic music as assumed

[shankarank]

The financing of CM is also going indirect, with more endowments, indirect support from Parents of wards who are learning.

Which should lift pressure on vocalists as well as instrumentalists to back away from clap-trap, like over use of brighas and singing in high octaves just to please, doing too many concerts within days, just to keep certain relationship with organizer networks intact.

Lot of things did not go right after 1980!

Layam should go into subtle mode, and not ignored as well, more as awareness. Rhythmic display can be limited to initial years, as new upcoming aritistes have to show case their learning first, before they can figure out who they are as musicians.

Most traditional rAgAs have been designed with ranjakatvam in mind, suppressing semitones. The music inherently integrates "folkness" and except for involved laya exercises, music of early 20th century was "folk" in character in terms of Melody , if evaluated using tastes of that time.

This "folk" Vs. "classical" wedge was created by anthropological outlook of the colonizers and Indian music was well connected across various social streams.

If there is enough sustainability of music of such traditional rAgAs, I believe this voice strain and issues will automatically go away as musicians and rasikas alike will get fulfilment in 1-1/2 octaves!

As regards , what other themes can be composed, many themes other than direct worship or address to deity are already there. But if new contexts have to be evolved, question becomes what is the dharma or ethic of such contexts which will afford and provide for enjoyment and sustainability of such compositional renditions??

That requires a society which has "purpose", "reverence" for the past, regard for ancestral creations!

That can be easily lost, as Ananda Bhairavi was lost in a matter of 15 years in popular imagination. SrImAn Rangara Ramanuja Iyengar frets about loss of Srutis based on the old microtones over centuries. It takes only one generation to lose it.

WCM in metros is filled with children of Asian Tiger moms from East Asia. Why? Even Western society needs to ponder as obsession with sports and accompanying band music takes it's toll, as descendants of previously non-elite get into education stream!

[thenpaanan]

This thread is about voice, not about what is sung. Except in the context of the entire forum, ie carnatic music as assumed

Thanks for the reminder.

To bring it all together...

I teach voice to an Indian American teenager who had his CM vocal arangetram a couple of years ago. He can give a competent concert as far as the commonly accepted standards go but his voice was a wreck. For a year or so we have been working on getting to improve his voice technique and it is a painful journey (which the kid was prepared to embark on). The kid has a regular CM teacher and I insist on not teaching him new kritis. I only teach him to sing those same kritis more comfortably and with ease. I don't teach him CM, I only teach him voice technique.

Now that we have advanced some, we are discussing the question of voice modulation ie intentional volume control, i.e. deliberately singing some notes or phrases louder or softer than the rest. Referred to as "dynamics" in Western performance theory. In the course of our discussion I realized some basic truths that I had not realized before.

Other genres such as film or "light classical" music rely heavily on voice modulation for emotional expression and straightforwardly so. The story in CM is however not so simple. Almost every CM teacher will tell you there is no modulation in CM. And they would be right. No one even talks about volume control in standard practice. Volume changes, when they happen, are involuntary -- someone sings a high note softly because they cannot reach that high or they sing it extra loud because they are forcing their voice to go there. We all know of examples of both.

A famous vocalist of yesteryears who had a significant range limitation would admonish his students if they sang high notes at normal volume. ("yen alararai?"why are you screaming?). I once had a teacher who told me that backing off the volume implies lack of "azhuttam" (weight).

The absence of modulation as a desirable might have been because of our history. As Shri Kalidas averred in one of his lectures, male CM vocalists until the early twentieth century were singing at F rather than around C and at that high pitch very little control/nuance was exercised because the vocalists were always singing full throttle. The second historical factor is that CM as we have it today inherits mostly from the bhajanai tradition (or the "kathAkArs of the 18th century) which almost exclusively uses the "call register" ie high pitched full throated singing, such as you find in Marathi abhang singing and even more so in Marathi nAtyasangIt.

That approach to singing was driven by the need for maximum volume and audibility because those singers sang to scattered audiences in open spaces (somewhat opposed to the HM singers' scene). But even though today's CM is in a completely different environment, the practices have not changed much. I don't see any LecDems in the Sangeeta Kalanidhi meetings that discuss this part of CM history.

It is also true that many vidwans actually do modulate. Just check out the various ways of singing 'sAkshAtkAra nee' from 'mOkshamu galada?" and you will see all the ways in which voice modulation happens knowingly or otherwise. Or check out any top flight violinist solo concerts? When they play high notes on the violin do they play the high notes softly? If so why? The instrument does not require modulation. It is entirely by choice. The only reason I can think of is that these violinists are emulating the vocalists!

So we are stuck in no man's land -- some teachers telling us that modulating your voice will make you sound like a cine singer and others using discernible modulation.

Thoughts? Do you think modulation is/should be a feature of CM voice? If yes how and how much? Would it take us down the slippery slope from lofty CM heights into "light music" valleys?

-T

[sam]

@Nick H

This thread is about voice, not about what is sung. Except in the context of the entire forum, ie carnatic music as assumed

.
Yes. I agree that this thread is not about the role of saahithyams in carnatic music .
And I suppose that the site itself is meant for CM.
We have a separate section for HM. and Light classical music.
Regrettably, no section on Western Classical music primers and historical evolution.
I have heard Rabindra sangeeth and there too the range is just 1.5 octave.
My previous post was in response to @thenpaaNan's comment on CM without hindu religious theme.
CM kruthis over the past 300 years do not need the vocalist to traverse a maximum of two octaves. Even that is very rare. Most kruthis need only 1.5 octaves. One does not need to be a soprano in CM.
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It is HM that gives more importance to three octaves range of singing. They do not have the rich wealth of great saahithya tradition of CM.
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May be pure RTP CM vocalists show off their voice range.
Kruthis have no need.

[Nick H]

Thoughts? Do you think modulation is/should be a feature of CM voice? If yes how and how much? Would it take us down the slippery slope from lofty CM heights into "light music" valleys?

Yes, I do! But, as I'm sure most here would agree, the music is very much about discipline, and it is about controlled expression, not emotional displays to wow the crowds: other genres can do that.

So 'dynamics' should be used in carnatic music, but, as with all other things, under control and with discipline.

Same goes for accompanists. Mridangists seldom use dynamics. It's as if they only know to play at one volume. I liken it to some small children: it is no good telling them to speak softly, they know only loud!

[thenpaanan]

Yes, I do! But, as I'm sure most here would agree, the music is very much about discipline, and it is about controlled expression, not emotional displays to wow the crowds: other genres can do that.

So 'dynamics' should be used in carnatic music, but, as with all other things, under control and with discipline.

Discipline works well as a goal at an individual or team level but rarely at a societal level. We as rasikas can either like or disapprove of new features, but eventually these things take their own mysterious trajectory in response to societal forces. All it takes is one or two virtuosos to take that step and become very popular and then a couple of imitators to pick that up and we are off to the races!

Just for historical perspective, there was a time when virtuosos like Madurai Mani and Chembai were thought by the then CM elite to be lowering the quality for mass appeal. Now they are considered icons of CM by the current elite. It boggles our minds now but many of the things we take as core to the music today are innovations that became popular in our lifetimes.

Same goes for accompanists. Mridangists seldom use dynamics. It's as if they only know to play at one volume. I liken it to some small children: it is no good telling them to speak softly, they know only loud!

Touche! Having once been a student of mridangam I can relate. There was nothing in the training about volume control or restraint. Perhaps contemporary mridangam teachers incorporate teaching of restrained playing in their curriculum?

-T

[Nick H]

Sure. I once managed to put it in a cleverer way, but today's innovation is tomorrows tradition. Tradition is inviolate, and must not be tampered with... until it is, and that becomes tomorrow's tradition.

It depends on what sticks. In the world in general, the tendency is to the lowest common denominator. In classical music, we hope we can do better than that!

[thenpaanan]

Typically, the "classical" in classical music refers to a time period (golden or whatever color) in history which marks a defining stage of the art. The natural assumptions are (i) because it is sufficiently removed in time it is assumed to have more or less retained its form over time, and (ii) because it has "survived" it must have something in it that is universal over time and continues to attract (lots of) adherents over the course of centuries.

I don't know how or when an art form becomes classical by common agreement. But "tradition" is built into its definition because it is something that has existed for some time. All else is up for debate. Even "common denominator" is questionable. We have radio stations in the US that peddle "Classic Rock" -- don't know if that would be different from "Classical" Rock if there was such a thing.

Nevertheless, I think the fact that a music has stood the test of time is its greatest strength. There are other things that can be considered hallmarks such as pursuit of high standards, relatively higher/exacting precision than other music forms, etc, but to me those are secondary. The fact that CM is so beloved in today's society despite the fact that it originated in a totally different milieu is the best testament to its greatness.

-T

[Nick H]

There is an actual classical period in western music, but the word has been expanded to cover all the serious orchestral/vocal/instrumental music. You probably know more than I do about that.

Wait... here we go...

The Classical period was an era of classical music between roughly 1750 and 1820.[1]
The classical period falls between the Baroque and Romantic periods. It is mainly homophonic, using a clear melody line over a subordinate chordal accompaniment,[2] but counterpoint was by no means forgotten, especially in liturgical vocal music and, later in the period, secular instrumental music. It also makes use of style galant which emphasizes light elegance in place of the Baroque's dignified seriousness and impressive grandeur. Variety and contrast within a piece became more pronounced than before, and the orchestra increased in size, range, and power. ... ... ...

So, in fact, only 70 years: one or two generations. A couple of generations.

As I'm not a music or an academic, I don't find it useful to classify, say, Mozart and Mahler under different labels. But I should certainly read the linked article for general interest.

Classic, as in cars, rock, etc, I take to mean just old/survived. Classical, one day, may well get applied to some of the deeper, more complex rock music beloved of people like me.

[thenpaanan]

These days "classical" is loosely applied to anything that is well-defined as a separate thing and old (how old?).

I once asked a non-musical friend what he thinks the meaning of "classical" in classical music is. He said "it has rules". Voila! I think this is a robust and usable definition. Must be old and must have well-defined rules of construction.

Classic rock is beloved to many people including me as well. Due to some weird inexplicable reason I still enjoy Led Zeppelin. Must be age.

-T

[Nick H]

Ha ha, I find many rasikas with much wider musical horizons than one might expect. I'm a Grateful Dead man

[thenpaanan]

CM kruthis over the past 300 years do not need the vocalist to traverse a maximum of two octaves. Even that is very rare. Most kruthis need only 1.5 octaves. One does not need to be a soprano in CM.

Why do you think CM kritis do not *need* bigger range, or rather I should say we limit their range to manthra Pa to tAra Pa? Isn't it just tradition that kriti composers have restricted themselves, perhaps so that lots of people can sing them? Absolute range (including soprano) has nothing in the rules nor has it anything to do with the content. Don't you think it is entirely conceivable that we see kritis in the future (or perhaps instrumental compositions) that truly span three octaves and singers will have to get special training to sing them? Why do we say "there is no need"? Shouldn't we rather be saying "why not?"

It is HM that gives more importance to three octaves range of singing. They do not have the rich wealth of great saahithya tradition of CM.

Sticking to CM, does sAhitya substitute for vocal range (and possibly other things like voice quality) in CM? How are they equivalent? Can we legitimately say that because we have a wealth of lyrics we don't need to bother with good voice preparation as much?

-T

[sam]

@ThenpANan
wrote

Don't you think it is entirely conceivable that we see kritis in the future (or perhaps instrumental

What has instrumental got to do with voice culture?.
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Show me a composer better than the TRINITY.
in their output, ragams handled and literary excellence.
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Yes. As you are able to surmise, the TRINITY chose 1.5 octave range so that all people can sing them, not just trained musicians.
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CM is of kruthis meant to be SUNG , it is a means of worship of the Almighty in Hindu pantheon.
We dont need trapeze artistes.
Film music is for that
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because we have a wealth of lyrics

Kruthis are not mere lyrics.
They are great lyrics set to great music as laid down by centuries of very erudite musicologists.

[Nick H]

[quote=thenpaanan post_id=384546 time=1746762451 user_id=444 Can we legitimately say that because we have a wealth of lyrics we don't need to bother with good voice preparation as much?
[/quote]

Perhaps you could say that because of the wealth of the lyrics, they deserve to be sung beautifully.

There is no requirement that the range should be restricted. Some artists go further than others. But, like other virtuoso skills, such as holding a note for a long time, it can be done for music or just to show off.

As one artist said to me, yes, he could do that, but then it is necessary to hold the note as long as is musical, not for even longer just because one has the practice and breath control. In other words: don't do this stuff just because you can.

[sam]

In Carnatic music, besides the lyrics, great importance is given to sruti suddham,, .
Gamakam is very important feature. There are said to be 10 types of gamakams. There are very strict rules as to which note should have which degree of gamakam such things cannot be notated exactly. It can be learned only through a good guru in person. CM training typically lasts for at least 5 years of daily instruction and practice. Gamakam in wrong note and and in inaprooriate raagams, will sound as apaswara to learned listeners.
Some schools even frown on things like niraval, and swara plays. Sruthi bedham circus is definitely out of question.
The Trinity have chiseled each kruthi carefully , by inspiration. Sing the kruthis without much ornamentation but exactly as laid down in the science of carnatic music.
Most krutis can be sung within 1.25 octave.
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Voice range concept is a concern for HM and western classical vocals.

Our concerts are stymied by just a few ragas. Not more than 50 at the most.
The Trinity however have sung in more than 250 raagas.
If we want to do something new, we can take excellent poems and set them to clssical music. ..without any orchestration.
Voice range is not the main thing in CM.