What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
shankarank
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by shankarank »

thenpaanan wrote: 12 May 2025, 07:49 I have to admit. I have listened to many recordings of hers and while I greatly admire her voice control, I don't know exactly what she is doing with her voice, If someone can break down her approach to modulation I would appreciate it very much. What is her thinking/deliberate action when it comes to modulation?
As Smt. Brinda traverses, this is what I can say trying to imitate that. She utilizes the "nakAram" position of the palate, to push more sound through the nasal, and only a brief sojourns to "ikArams" , keeping it to short akAra (kuril) sound.

https://youtu.be/xqbg_lcv-kI?t=188

Still she avoids the shrill, and that is not clear if that is gift or effort?

This ensures, the music subdues the sound, vs. the reverse. Musicians with voice appeal will suddenly burst open to please the populace on the higher notes, and sound overtakes music.

The next-gen Shastri Hall where such music needs experienced should be built a semi circular - about 170 deg. span, with 45 deg raised stadium seating, like the Royal Institution one out there for scientific talks! About 150 - 200 seats? Not more. By definition elitist :lol: . Of course with ADA compliance. As the transit goes underground, music should radiate and raise up the skies! :D

thenpaanan
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by thenpaanan »

shankarank wrote: 13 May 2025, 06:31
As Smt. Brinda traverses, this is what I can say trying to imitate that. She utilizes the "nakAram" position of the palate, to push more sound through the nasal, and only a brief sojourns to "ikArams" , keeping it to short akAra (kuril) sound.
In Western voice there is a concept of "head voice" which is just a different way of singing from the normal "chest voice" emphasizing the nasal and head resonances, A student is enjoined to sing in a blended voice, part chest and part head voice. This enables the singer to sing across the range without increasing or decreasing volume and without losing resonance with any vowel. But it is not a self-evident or easy thing to master. There are voice exercises for this.
shankarank wrote: 13 May 2025, 06:31 Still she avoids the shrill, and that is not clear if that is gift or effort?
That is the crucial question. Is it a gift or is it practiced for? In almost all cases that I can see it seems some CM singers just have it naturally and others don't. If you don't have the skill and want it, where do you go?

sam
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by sam »

Perhaps, all CM students must undergo a rigorous training in HM classical, before they learn CM. ..voice control and sruthi suddham, and 2 octaves if not more sancharam- both very slow tempo and ultra fast.
It has no lyrics.
After leaninng voice control, they should come to kruthi oriented CM

USTAD SALAMAT ALI KHAN CLASSICAL PERFORMANCE
.
https://youtu.be/2qN4QlG6nmU?si=hRFTw_Rt6T23DRZx

.is it Hamsadhvani?

A typical HM performance with Saaragi and Tabla.
..
"M S Subbulakshmi -
Vande Maataram
(Duet with Dilip Kumar Roy)
.
https://youtu.be/5sJg7-lYwSI?si=DBlF3cwACpKlQXER
.
Contrastic style of singing.

Who taught her voice control?.
Mostly God given

She had HM training under Pandit Vyas.,
That also might have helped.

No way ,peacocks can become nightingales by whaever training.

vgovindan
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by vgovindan »

My two cents -
From the time sangita and nRtya were segregated, singing tradition has lost sight of emotional content of music. The way bhAva is taught in dance, it should be taught in regard to singing also. It is not that only when words - lyrics - are presented, there is emotion. In representation of each and every svara, there is a different presentation according to nava rasas. When Thyagaraja says 'nAbhi hRt kaNTha rasana', he points out the depths from which the voice arises. NAda is not only the origin of music, but that which remains between each svara - even in the silence thereof. The way science defines a 'field', as the substratum, Nada is the field for music. Unfortunately, we have lost touch with that 'reality' aspect of NAda. We want to hold tightly to the svaras only. Svaras are nothing more than alphabets - akshara - and Sabda - words. NAda is that anirvachanIya - beyond the scope of expression - that which needs to be apprehended. True musicians are not found in concerts. They sing for themselves, and communicate to 'someone' who is ever listening. NAda is parA; even what we express has three stages - paSyanti, madhyamA, vaikhari. What we express is similar to scholarship - pANDitya - vs realisation - sAkshAtkAra. Unless music aims at that sAkshAtkAra, all our voice modulations would remain in the realm of externalising sound - unmodulated noise.

shankarank
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by shankarank »

sam wrote: 17 May 2025, 06:07 Perhaps, all CM students must undergo a rigorous training in HM classical, before they learn CM. ..voice control and sruthi suddham
sam wrote: 17 May 2025, 06:07 Who taught her voice control?.
Mostly God given
If it is god given, then why propose some formula to get it for others? COntradicting yourself. Many are biased by the music/voices they like and think that that is the best ideal voice. And that changes over time too! It may be that contemporary singers have what we might call an "improved" presentation style in absolute terms, comparing across times, but people who listened to older music may not agree!

But I would also say that the universal acclaim of some voices (MSS, Latha, Bhimsen , BMK, pick your favorite male playbackers), indicates there is indeed a shared sense of what is perfect across the Indian culture. This is healthy and welcome and a bliss when it happens.

But within the Siksha/Sadhana stream of the music, we will still need guidelines for any voice to convey the idiom to a select group of connoiseurs.

SSI was declared a coconut shell scraper voice. If he had taken that to heart, would we have had an SSI phenomenon?

If we are comparing HM and CM, in HM the idiom itself is such that you need a voice-trained voice to express that music! CM not so. And that is not because of lyrics as you call it. This is a mistake of the "literarizing" everything, making language a separate category, with music being only harmonic sounds, because westerners said so.

HM also utilizes Bandish to begin setting the gait, to anchor the flow of music to rhythym! Now I see , some bhakti sangeeth being added to conclude a recital. You may say, this is just stage packaging, but you cannot say these extra things are completely unmusical.

So they have taken, svar singing, korvais ( the famous refrain of our current reigning SK- of all things they take this cheap arithmetic) and slowly some compositional music also. Everything except the priced gamaks , which according to some is the only thing carnatic. Wah-re... that is something!

Nick H
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by Nick H »

shankarank wrote: 18 May 2025, 09:06If it is god given, then why propose some formula to get it for others?
So, your answer is that a person must sing with whatever voice they have, regardless of sounding good; regardless of damaging their own anatomy and thus hastening their "listen-by" date?

The person with a poor voice can improve it. The person with a great voice can improve it too. Both may learn how to sing with less strain, thus maintaining themselves and increasing their singing years.

What is it that people here want to curse poor vocalists that they can't sing better and that they have to harm their vocal chords? It's simply a nonsense. Would you give a violinist a poor violin and say, this is it, this is what you've got, do what you can. Nobody would do that.

Violinists, mridangists, and other instrumentalists are very much concerned about the quality and sound of their instruments. Even the humble morsing. They put a lot of time, effort, and money into choosing and maintaining their equipment. But the vocalist isn't allowed to? Because they must be satisfied with what god gave them (or genetics, for the non believer) however poor they sound and however much it hurts to hit highest or lowest notes? This goes beyond being hard-line: it is almost cruelty!

Yes, I know that there poor-voice singers who can and do produce the most wonderful, transcendent concerts. They are very special individuals and they give us something beyond music. It is not, and it should not be the rule.

By the way, it may not be common and I hope it is not (but I suspect it is not rare) but I have seen it. The singers who cannot produce a pleasing tone, cannot sing with proper volume, cannot project the voice because... that is how the teacher sang, and, even if they know better, maybe they don't want their students to sound better than them.

sam
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by sam »

@shankarank sir,
But I would also say that the universal acclaim of some voices (MSS, Latha, Bhimsen , BMK, pick your favorite male playbackers), indicates there is indeed a shared sense of what is perfect across the Indian culture. This is healthy and welcome and a bliss when it happens
.
.
Very well said.. Such singers have been tremendous unifying force not only among the states but even in Lahore and Dacca and Colombo.
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A good article speaks about CM concert festivals and seasons in Karnataka and Andhra/Telengana too. It fails to mention Navarathri mandapam concerts and Chembai music festival.
CM should spread in Konkan and Maharashtra. Groundwork has already been made by famous lady vocalists.
.
https://swarajyamag.com/culture/why-is- ... atic-music.

Quote
Chennai boasts of close to 150 sabhas with around 25 to 30 being very active especially during the Season. But the gate collection, including season tickets, contribute to less than Rs 2 crore (a pittance really) during the near 45-day season. For contrast, sabha canteen revenue during the same period, is claimed to be around Rs 6 crore. In fact, sabha canteen visits have become more popular than the actual music.
......
Hyderabad's Carnatic music scene too is vibrant and steadily growing. Telugu being the chosen language for all the legends of the genre, its affinity is natural. If you take out Saint Thyagaraja's krithis out of Carnatic music, you are taking out its heart and soul...
Quote ends.
There are touching tributes to Hyderabad brothers.
Positive notes on RaGA.
Please do read.
I mean CM kruthis for their devotional message.
.and we read about 100 crore boxoffice collectiion within a week for some films.

Nick H
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by Nick H »

sam wrote: 18 May 2025, 20:37Chennai boasts of close to 150 sabhas with around 25 to 30 being very active especially during the Season. But the gate collection, including season tickets, contribute to less than Rs 2 crore (a pittance really) during the near 45-day season. For contrast, sabha canteen revenue during the same period, is claimed to be around Rs 6 crore. In fact, sabha canteen visits have become more popular than the actual music. .
The vast majority of Chennai concerts during the season and the rest of the year are completely free to the audience, Food and refreshments are almost always not. Except during Season, most sabhas do not have attached canteens. Therefore this "Gate collection" is a completely spurious and nonsensical assessment of concert attendance.

(And has nothing at all to do with quality of singing voice.)

shankarank
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by shankarank »

Nick H wrote: 18 May 2025, 14:38
shankarank wrote: 18 May 2025, 09:06If it is god given, then why propose some formula to get it for others?
So, your answer is that a person must sing with whatever voice they have, regardless of sounding good; regardless of damaging their own anatomy and thus hastening their "listen-by" date?
Nick H - hope you noticed my question was rhetorical, to clarify the issue, as the rest of my response should be making it clear!

sam
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by sam »

@nick H
I belong to the generation which graduated in 2004, sadly when MSS passed away. We are all working people...very often, we work even on holidays.
How do the sabhas expect us and college students to attend the concerts even except after 7.30 pm?
But then it is hardly safe for late night commuting.

This non stop CM is then inevitably restricted to people of leisure. Were it not for casttes, videos, live streaming, the younger generation cannot attend concerts.
Except the 7pm-9.00 pm slot, the programmers are not caring much for working people.
Day time concerts should only be on holidays.
The other concert audience is friends and relatives of the artistes and habitual concert goers .
And December nowadays is not weather friendly. In other cities, the festivals are spread out.
Please read the article in full.
There are many fine points there.
The music festivals in other places like Thiruvananthapuram, Thrissur, Mysore, Bangalore and Hyderabad are conveniently timed.

Nick H
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by Nick H »

shankarank wrote: 19 May 2025, 05:23 Nick H - hope you noticed my question was rhetorical, to clarify the issue, as the rest of my response should be making it clear!
This is all getting somewhat out of my depth, even though it seems such a simple topic. I probably did miss your point(s)!

Now let me scratch my head over Sam's travel/scheduling problems. Goodness knows what that has to do with voice quality. Effect of traffic fumes, maybe.

Sam, yes of course concerts between 8.00am and 6.30pm are not suitable for the working person. That's life: It is highly unfortunate that we have to spend so much of it just earning a living. Anyway, outside of the "Season" they are rare, and the season is a time when many, many working folk from home and abroad take holiday to immerse themselves. There are lots and lots of other things I would rather have been doing other than being in an office during all those years. What to do? *

Now, shall we talk about singing voices?



*Sing about it, I suppose. But then we'd probably be talking blues rather than carnatic. Bob Dylan's voice is awful.

shankarank
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by shankarank »

And that article still talks about budding artistes vying for Chennai audience and recognition by Chennai Sabhas! Don't know what is lesser in one's own sweet local audience! Oh! I know it is not the fame and publicity alone, but only in Chennai true Mridanga rasikas are there , that is why ;) :lol: . I mean the concert business, format, gait and entertainment! What can replace that! :D

I remember an anecdote. When Patri came on tour with Hyd. Bros. in early 2000(s) or may be 1999, Dayton Ohio, Rama Temple, post concert we three of us, all Tamils, accosted him, and appreciated his playing, to which the senior of the duo joined with us "cAlu vassikkum". And Patri opened up , how irrespective of where one is from, Chennai is the only refuge!

In the three of us, there was one young lady as well - ok! - this is not just a men thing, I mean appreciating Mridangam.

Seriously, learning to appreciate Mridangam among a substantial minimum of rasikas, especially in other states, will first allow them to listen to varied voices of vocals. That will then create an eco system like MA and MFAS etc., automatically. It lends stature to any audience , to be able to appreciate layam!.

That will also open them up to debates on what is the ideal voice for different approaches within CM.

Else they will remain prisoners of brand names and clap traps!
rajeshnat wrote: 27 Apr 2025, 20:49 few of them were very good but tabla rhythm is not as good as mrudangam addition to CM .
Tabla has Majesty unique to it when they start with the tEka and establish the pace. And when they join the "sam" etc. It just got cheapified in audience minds due to it's over use in all kinds of other genres , including movie songs!

They could not do that to Mridangam. They had to make a movie on Mridangam or make a CM movie like Sindhu Bhairavi.

As Illayaraja points out in his "The Hindu" conversation, on his recent symphony endeavors , "will any song that they put out become a kirtanam? Can't we let some things be left in their high/exalted state" ( "sila vishayangal uyarndu irunda enna tavaru?") - this to the constant pestering by the interviewer on "how can common man understand symphony?"

This "common man"/aam admi business has become a menace of a political speech!

And in yet another channel from Dravidian party political stream, the interviewer asked the speaker, who was in support of TMK: "don't we all think this CM is all Iyer families beating on their thighs and singing? Why should we be bothered about this ?"

So the common man has spoken what CM is!! May be they know better!! :lol:
Last edited by shankarank on 20 May 2025, 09:25, edited 1 time in total.

vgovindan
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by vgovindan »

Sometime back, I happened to hear a 1985 Hindi film 'ankahee' song composed by Jaidev - link given below. This is a Doha of Kabir rendered by Asha. I heard a short interview of Amol Palekar, producer and director of the movie, saying that Asha was running 102° fever when this song was recorded. She refused to take money for the song. If only the lyrics are understood and get related to the movie sequence - and to our own lives, the worth of music as yogic - unifying - experience can be understood. Till then, we will keep asking questions like - 'can AI become self-conscious?'
BTW - Brahmin intellect is such, that it needs no external enemy.

https://youtu.be/BRi1vr8YdRs?si=QNE1EJa1FXChsp8Q

And, here is the concert version of it -

https://youtube.com/shorts/89fdyMvHDJs? ... wG7TxSki2U
Last edited by vgovindan on 20 May 2025, 10:35, edited 1 time in total.

sam
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by sam »

@Nick H
yes of course concerts between 8.00am and 6.30pm are not suitable for the working person. That's life: It is highly unfortunate that we have to spend so much of it just earning a living.
.
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Work-life balance is a hot topic in south india..especially in Chennai and Bangalore. This news item may be an eye opener.

https://english.publictv.in/techie-comm ... bengaluru/..
The deceased techie has been identified as Nikhil Somwanshi. An IISc graduate, Nikhil was working with a company in Koramangala. Nikhil’s colleagues have accused the manager of torturing Nikhil, which led to his suicide. They claim the US-based manager would often harassing new employees, leading several employees to quit.
.it so happens that quite a few thousands of keen students of carnatic music, most often because of their family background are hard working professionals .
.
For whom are these vocalists trying to improve their voice?
Bathroom singing? And super'-rasikas who have all the time in the world to hop from one venue to another?
...
The leisure class, wants singers to sing.only for the diaspora? ...for whom december chennai may be an escape?..

Now, shall we talk about singing voices?


.Sure. First of all, we need not be talking about voice control techniques applicable to western music, classical and pop.
.
Let us confine ourselves to Indian music..CM and HM.
Among the two, HM classical , especially of muslim schools, ( i am talking about 1940 1970 period, plenty of recordings of more than a dozen masters are available free in web, almost predominantly male voices.
.
As I have already pointed out, even as a lay listener, i am blown by their huge voice range. And pitch perfection. Besides their rocket speed improvisations where needed..
May be we must have a model before us to guide us. What better model than these ?
So my recipe is just listen to a lot of HM Classical vocalists, especially, truly north indian, before even the HM world fell a prey to american money and pop culture. Britain has the cream today.
.
I observe that the chennai people are more american savvy than north indian savvy.
Dollars.


.

vgovindan
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by vgovindan »

Ramanama Payasake - Dasara Kriti

Priya sisters' version -

https://youtu.be/PIHcZjc5Z8s?si=0qWn3FYXttxFC-gG

Another rendition of it -

https://youtu.be/PnLRKHH_mZM


One tends to ask - what is the purpose of music? Voice culture is a subsequent issue.

Nick H
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by Nick H »

sam wrote: 20 May 2025, 09:17.
Work-life balance is a hot topic in south india..especially in Chennai and Bangalore. This news item may be an eye opener.
It isn't news to me. I'm aware of some of the pressures and (to me) unreasonable demands put on young Indian employees. In some ways, I would have loved to have been born here: in some other ways, not so much. I do respect them for what they achieve, both in office and in music: it would be far too much work for a lazy nick-h!

I'm aware of keen rasikas who often tell me that they had to miss concerts because of work. But I am also aware that many young and even not-so-young musicians do not work full time in music, but manage to give concerts, and even to work on other musical projects.
.it so happens that quite a few thousands of keen students of carnatic music, most often because of their family background are hard working professionals .
.
Whether their time is taken by profession or whatever, their are many who desire to perform who will not get the chance. The competition is intense. That's the same in all performing arts in all the world
For whom are these vocalists trying to improve their voice?
Bathroom singing?
For whom are they even opening their mouths and singing? For whom are they picking up their veenas, flutes, mridangams, etc? For themselves; for the love of music.

And a good voice may still be part of their concern. A healthy voice may still be part of their concern.

I was discussing this with a visiting NRI one day a few years ago. She does get concerts, but very few. Still, she told me that she had come to realise that, if she did not work on her voice now [early middle age] she might not be able to sing later in life. To an audience or not.
The leisure class, wants singers to sing.only for the diaspora? ...for whom december chennai may be an escape?
Please excuse if I am wrong, but I have a feeling that you are in USA, and might not be familiar with the current Chennai carnatic scene during January to November? It is very much alive and well. Concerts have declined from twenty years ago, when there would have been a choice of several every day. But once can still attend several every week. Very often I do.
Now, shall we talk about singing voices?
Sure. First of all, we need not be talking about voice control techniques applicable to western music, classical and pop.
Whilst no Indian musician needs to learn the techniques of an opera singer* (a style I personally don't like at all), lungs are lungs, larynxes are larynxes, the world over. Therefore useful techniques can be found from all the world. @thenpaanan has posted practical information about this.
Let us confine ourselves to Indian music..CM and HM.
Among the two, HM classical , especially of muslim schools, ( i am talking about 1940 1970 period, plenty of recordings of more than a dozen masters are available free in web, almost predominantly male voices.
So we don't have to confine ourselves,
As I have already pointed out, even as a lay listener, i am blown by their huge voice range. And pitch perfection. Besides their rocket speed improvisations where needed..
May be we must have a model before us to guide us. What better model than these ?
So my recipe is just listen to a lot of HM Classical vocalists
The experience and the example may be good. But techniques need to be learnt, not just listened to.

Unless members like thenpaanan can contribute more practical posts, I think this subject is done and dusted. I know only too well that what I've said here has been said on this forum before, probably more than once! So perhaps I should make a note to self: stop repeating! :D


*Actually, I was surprised to learn, from a young vocalist, only last week, that she has that interest!

thenpaanan
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by thenpaanan »

vgovindan wrote: 20 May 2025, 10:49 One tends to ask - what is the purpose of music?
Isn't that up to each listener? Who are we to prescribe or proscribe? Listeners listen and take what they want from the music.

-T
Last edited by thenpaanan on 21 May 2025, 09:19, edited 1 time in total.

thenpaanan
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by thenpaanan »

Nick H wrote: 20 May 2025, 12:46 Whilst no Indian musician needs to learn the techniques of an opera singer* (a style I personally don't like at all), lungs are lungs, larynxes are larynxes, the world over. Therefore useful techniques can be found from all the world. @thenpaanan has posted practical information about this.

[...]
The experience and the example may be good. But techniques need to be learnt, not just listened to.

[...]

Unless members like thenpaanan can contribute more practical posts, I think this subject is done and dusted. I know only too well that what I've said here has been said on this forum before, probably more than once! So perhaps I should make a note to self: stop repeating! :D
Agreed. We have gone down far too many rabbit holes while avoiding the main point of the thread. Good place to stop.

As far as practical posts go, there is a whole universe out there on Youtube available for free about voice exercises. But they seem inaccessible in a semantic way to CM and perhaps even HM singers.

In an attempt to follow the principle of "better to light a candle than curse the darkness" I tried to bridge the gap in a workshop that I ran many years ago during the pandemic. It is based on my own personal experiential learning.

Looking back at it it is clear that I need to do a much better job of teaching as well as recording stuff so I will need to redo many of these things here.

The video eries is just a recording of a workshop on zoom and, fair warning, it is very very long. And the quality is uneven. And, like most singers, I am not fond of listening to my own singing.

But I have not yet found another video at this level of detail. If anyone is aware of a voice teacher who has tried to bridge the gap between western voice training techniques and Indian voices I would dearly love to know.

https://www.youtube.com/@rajrajagopalanvoicetechniq672

Comments and feedback solicited. If I have to do this again I need some clear goals for myself the next time around.

-T
Last edited by thenpaanan on 21 May 2025, 08:50, edited 1 time in total.

thenpaanan
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by thenpaanan »

Nick H wrote: 18 May 2025, 14:38 What is it that people here want to curse poor vocalists that they can't sing better and that they have to harm their vocal chords? It's simply a nonsense. Would you give a violinist a poor violin and say, this is it, this is what you've got, do what you can. Nobody would do that.

[...]

By the way, it may not be common and I hope it is not (but I suspect it is not rare) but I have seen it. The singers who cannot produce a pleasing tone, cannot sing with proper volume, cannot project the voice because... that is how the teacher sang, and, even if they know better, maybe they don't want their students to sound better than them.
My best guess is that there seems to be a prevalent fear that if vocalists focused more on their voice, other qualities of their music would suffer.

There is a lot more tolerance of bad singing in CM than in other genres. Carnatic audiences are more forgiving of singers who are off-pitch, have bedraggled voices, or jump octaves when they get out of their voice range. There is something to said for that. But the downside of that is the tolerance leads to neglect!

-T

vgovindan
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by vgovindan »

T
"Who are we to prescribe or proscribe? Listeners listen and take what they want from the music."

Having given two different renderings of the same song/kRti, and two examples, it was a rhetoric. My views are given in my earlier post.

sam
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by sam »

Listening to well'-rendered and challenging kruthis by the Trinity and their disciples and then trying to emulate, is the best method of voice culture.
Aff faculties can perhaps be improved by intense training.
Neither CM nor HM belittle the importance of intense saadhakam.
But there are limits.
.
However, there are hundreds of kruthis of the Trinity, which need just sraddha and devotion, without need for traversing octaves. Barely three minutes.

There are some kruthis by MuthuswamI Dikshitar which are indeed very tough to sing, though within 1.25 octave only.
.
The typical case is NCVasanthakokilam rendering of MAaye thvam yaahi song in Tarangini. I dont think, any other renowned musician came anywhere near that., class.

https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... tharangini
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... gini?pli=1
It is not voice training. It is just native gIft.
.
Perhaps most MD kruthis are self contained works of art. Take another masterpiece, Rangapura vihaaa in Brundaavana Saaranga.
MS rendition in 1956.
LIVE VIDEO.
.https://youtube.com/shorts/VBCaL5i_MwQ? ... hX1AwdKsok
No swarams, aalaaps, brugas and such.
.
So my take is that we should listen to a lot of masterpieces by The Trinity and practice them without yielding to manodharmam crowd who care little for fhe sacrddness of saahithyam.
.
Learn kruthis and saahithyams.
Remember..it is Naadopaasana.
Voice mastery is ephemeral.
The spiritual bliss is eternal.
Last edited by sam on 21 May 2025, 17:50, edited 1 time in total.

thenpaanan
Posts: 670
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by thenpaanan »

vgovindan wrote: 17 May 2025, 07:01 My two cents -
From the time sangita and nRtya were segregated, singing tradition has lost sight of emotional content of music. The way bhAva is taught in dance, it should be taught in regard to singing also. It is not that only when words - lyrics - are presented, there is emotion. In representation of each and every svara, there is a different presentation according to nava rasas. When Thyagaraja says 'nAbhi hRt kaNTha rasana', he points out the depths from which the voice arises. NAda is not only the origin of music, but that which remains between each svara - even in the silence thereof. The way science defines a 'field', as the substratum, Nada is the field for music. Unfortunately, we have lost touch with that 'reality' aspect of NAda. We want to hold tightly to the svaras only. Svaras are nothing more than alphabets - akshara - and Sabda - words. NAda is that anirvachanIya - beyond the scope of expression - that which needs to be apprehended. True musicians are not found in concerts. They sing for themselves, and communicate to 'someone' who is ever listening. NAda is parA; even what we express has three stages - paSyanti, madhyamA, vaikhari. What we express is similar to scholarship - pANDitya - vs realisation - sAkshAtkAra. Unless music aims at that sAkshAtkAra, all our voice modulations would remain in the realm of externalising sound - unmodulated noise.
Agreed, but I come to a different conclusion.

Music as an art form can be as abstract as anything else. When we stare at a painting by Mondrian (see https://www.tate.org.uk/kids/explore/wh ... t-mondrian) there is definitely something moving about them but it defies all verbal description. In fact, you realize that the the image is a language of its own and cannot be adequately captured as anything else. All descriptions are approximate.

Same with music. The more abstract the music the more difficult it is to describe the feelings it generates in us. It is not one thing or another because it is beyond words. We can and usually try to convey some feeling through the music but abstract music is above all that. Carnatic music just like the great music systems of the world has that ability to give us the canvas to make abstract music. What we do with it is up to us. We can constrain ourselves to expressing only some things through the music or we can let it go unfettered and try to express all kinds of things with sincerity and focus ("shraddhaA").

Carnatic music has a very unique idiomatic approach to music and this needs to be explored for all it is worth. Perhaps one day we will have an art piece in a showroom or a museum which is just an audio loop with a singer singing a wordless Sahana alapana and nothing else. Perhaps with an intriguing title even.

Everything else is mere vocabulary and grammar. Words, songs, dance, paintings, sculptures, etc are all different ways to express the inexpressible. They are all different and mutually irreplaceable because they each scratch a very deep itch differently, and to scratch that itch is a primary drive in the human condition. To me CM is one such means of expression that defies explanation or boundaries. It is an enormous and fabulous canvas. Why then should we voluntarily restrict ourselves?

Your point about CM not always being found on the stage is well taken. There are at least two forms of any serious music -- the expressive aspect and the performative aspect. Both play a role but the context determines the relative proportion. It seems to be true that the best music is created when the skilled musician does not care what his audience thinks. The same is true of all art. The best art is presented with a "take it or leave it" attitude. People think such artists are arrogant but the truth is that the best art is created when it is truly liberated from past (historical tradition), present (captivating the audience) or future (creating a legacy) expectations.

-T
Last edited by thenpaanan on 21 May 2025, 14:35, edited 1 time in total.

vgovindan
Posts: 1947
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by vgovindan »

T,
"....The more abstract the music the more difficult it is to describe the feelings it generates in us. It is not one thing or another because it is beyond words. We can and usually try to convey some feeling through the music but abstract music is above all that. Carnatic music just like the great music systems of the world has that ability to give us the canvas to make abstract music....."

Absolutely! When I said about bhAva, it does not pertain only to lyrical representation. In fact, when Alapana or svara-prastAra is done by a musician who is well-versed in nAda, he conveys more meaning - meaningless meaning - pure nAdAnubhava - listening experience - to the listener. If this is appreciated, then singers would get 'drowned' in what they sing. Then, even apasvara becomes as sweet and enchanting as svara.
If this aspect of music is appreciated, then separate voice culture would need no sAdhana; voice, then would emerge, not from throat, but from nAbhi, nay from அடிவயிறு effortlessly. Then there is no further goal to reach. That's nAdabrahmam.

thenpaanan
Posts: 670
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by thenpaanan »

vgovindan wrote: 21 May 2025, 13:41
Absolutely! When I said about bhAva, it does not pertain only to lyrical representation. In fact, when Alapana or svara-prastAra is done by a musician who is well-versed in nAda, he conveys more meaning - meaningless meaning - pure nAdAnubhava - listening experience - to the listener. If this is appreciated, then singers would get 'drowned' in what they sing. Then, even apasvara becomes as sweet and enchanting as svara.
If this aspect of music is appreciated, then separate voice culture would need no sAdhana; voice, then would emerge, not from throat, but from nAbhi, nay from அடிவயிறு effortlessly. Then there is no further goal to reach. That's nAdabrahmam.
Then we agree completely. Given that common ideal, permit me to point out a practical difficulty. We have to go through some training before we become able to create abstract art. The training that we call Carnatic music (as distinct from the nAdAnubhava-creating music) makes us go through a regimen that often creates practices/habits in us that we find inimical to creating abstract music (when we get there eventually). We discover that the singing technique as taught often restricts our range, ruins our voice slowly, and even prevents us from enjoying the act of singing. We then have to unlearn some of these practices to make progress. Not enough attention is paid to this eventuality, And CM is not alone in this. HM also suffers from some aspects of it. Western music probably has it too but I am not qualified to opine on that,

-T

Nick H
Posts: 9467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by Nick H »

Sam, your heart, soul and mind are touched by the composers and compositions that you revere, and I do respect that. Having said that, I will answer bluntly
sam wrote: 21 May 2025, 11:56 Listening to well'-rendered and challenging kruthis by the Trinity and their disciples and then trying to emulate, is the best method of voice culture.
Aff faculties can perhaps be improved by intense training.
Neither CM nor HM belittle the importance of intense saadhakam.
But there are limits.
... ... ...
It is not voice training. It is just native gIft.
... ... ...
Learn kruthis and saahithyams.
Remember..it is Naadopaasana.
Voice mastery is ephemeral.
The spiritual bliss is eternal.
I think that you completely miss the point of the thread.

There are many arts and skills that cannot be learned by observation alone, and music is among them. Would you tell a violinist to simply listen to great recordings and then they will be able to play? Obviously that is a nonsense: they would never get any practical skill whatsoever. (Unless by some miracle, or being a one-in-a-million who pick up an instrument in childhood and simply... get it.)

I heard of one dance teacher, "Every one of his students will have major knee problems by the time they are 30." Voice too is, physically, just muscles and other parts. And voice, too, is not always taught with proper care and attention to those parts. Which cannot be taught by just listening.

Thank you to govindan and thenpaanan for some wonderful posts.

thenpaanan, I think numerous young artists are looking into all this stuff these days. One that I recall mentioning doing voice workshops is S Adithyanarayanan.

Anyway... enough for now... another thread will happen in a few years.... :)

thenpaanan
Posts: 670
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by thenpaanan »

Nick H wrote: 21 May 2025, 15:12 thenpaanan, I think numerous young artists are looking into all this stuff these days. One that I recall mentioning doing voice workshops is S Adithyanarayanan.
I looked on youtube and while I see a few concerts of Adithyanarayanan, I could not see any voice workshop. If you know of any specifically, please point me and I would be much obliged.

-T

sam
Posts: 1033
Joined: 04 Mar 2020, 20:25

Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by sam »

@Nick H
I
think that you completely miss the point of the thread
.
It is you Sir, that is missing the point.
Did you miss the word emulate?
GNB is a typical example.
DKP learned by simply attending the concerts of Naina pillai.
Where do you think Flute Maali learned his music?
.
Have you heard that even Shelley and Keats drew inspiration from the Bard?
Every singer draws inspiration from an idol.
Some try to emulate.
Many are content to be rasikas...

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