An invitation to participate

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 24 Feb 2007, 11:09

todi failed twice,
But finally got it now..

VK , indeed the kambhoji is great !!
I too enjoyed the part you mentioned.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 24 Feb 2007, 14:35

For your sake Jayaram , I have let those imperfections stay.

K-ji, thank you for that. Btw, these are perfections, in my book. They are what add to the beauty and character of the concert experience.

(I relish the coughs, mridangam settings, chit-chats, etc. that happen on the stage...so refreshingly different from the 'track' stuff one gets these days...which is why I cherish my old tape collection. There's one in which MDR says 'krishna...' then sighs - aha, what a moment!)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 24 Feb 2007, 21:45

Wow! What a kAmbodhi! As if Musiri, GNB and CVB and above all Mankkaal himself all rolled into one and with TVRP's own mudra it sparkles like a jewel. Just unforgettable.
Vijay
If you are game we can do a stroke by stroke analysis of this beauty (there are many fine points of Srinivasa Rao too embedded here). I can't do it all by myself though I have internalized them!

Unfogettable indeed! Thanks coolkarni for this rare treat (much sweeter than any mysore paaks without elevating my blood sugar

erode14 · Post by **erode14** » 24 Feb 2007, 21:47

hello all,

very nice to hear happenings...

include me too in mailing list.

[email protected]

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 25 Feb 2007, 00:26

I am game CML - but I would prefer someone more knowledgeable to lead - maybe yourself or DRS could do the honours and others can chip in...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Feb 2007, 00:59

Great I will start working on it with timelines. DRS is quite busy but will come in when we need him. Let us have a musical extravganza...

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 25 Feb 2007, 09:55

erode14

done..welcome..

K Srinivasan · Post by **K Srinivasan** » 25 Feb 2007, 22:10

Dear Mr.Cool,
Kindly add me to your mailing list.
Thanks n Regards

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 26 Feb 2007, 02:48

Here is my first crack at the kambodhi of TVRP. Each one of us will see and hear differently according to our background. I am just a Rasika and no expert. Let me just start with the aalaapana of TVRP. It is simply majestic.
To have a common timeline I am just following the posted audio. There is a pindrop silence except for the faint tambura shruti for the first 23.5 secs (the absence of mike amplification gives a comfortable feel!). Then suddenly the powerful voice of TVRP booms. I can only say his voice is 'gaNeer' (don't know to translate!). He traverses comfortably from the ati mantra to the ati taara sthaanam and I noticed that (though the violinist usually uses twice the shruti) he just matches the violinist in perfect synchrony at times!
TVRP finishes a complete aalaapana by 2:15 which is very much like the oldtimers who belt it out for the 72rpms. He reminded me of Musiri and I would have guessed right away that it is going to be 'thiruvaDi sharaNam' even before he announced.
Now he starts in earnest with the purva bhaaga of kambodhi. Look at the elegance with which he glides to the mantra sthaanam at 2:45. He goes through the standard procedure massaging the gaandhaaram and just a jab at the dhaivatam (4:23) for a later sortie. Around 4:55 there is a lovely akaaram weaving. Just listen to his kaarvai (6:20 to 6:35) which reminded me of the famous one by TNR. At this point he was in perfect synchrony with Srinivasa rao and the reverberations are heavenly. He does it again @6:52 but this time weaving around the shadjam being held. By now he covers the whole of madhyasthaayi with a beautiful unfolding of the raaga lakshana. coming close to 9 he reminded me of MMI (his famous 'ooyi's (I thought of ma jaanaki!). At 9:20 he breaks into taara sthaayi using the akaaram as a sOpaanam (I mean stairs). Around 10:30 there is alively dialogue between TVRP and Rao. By 10:40 he starts the descent trying to tease the violist which is superbly responded to by Rao. At 12:35 he does a mini summary of kambodhi covering the entire gamut and ends our expectation by 13:30 when the audience break out into a spontaneous applause.

A very well executed kambodhi indeed. When I think of Musiri the only difference I feel (except the nasality which adds beauty) he abbreviated the taara sancaaram. Kaambodhi is a tristhaayi raaga I would have enjoyed a power display in that range (which TVRP is quite capable.But he restricted himself I guess due to time constraints (yet the whole show of kamboshi as the major piece took 47 mins). Since there were no sounds or chatter from the (Chennai

audience I assume they were either spell bound (or were instructed to behave like the Westerners (No! Nick I am not fingering you

Now guys take it from here.....

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Feb 2007, 00:30

There was one guy in the front row who got over enthusiastic with putting talam. For what reason he bruised his thigh and our ears I have no idea...

Time to do some downloading.... but I don't seem to be getting on well with the badongo site: it just says loading. Is this waiting period very extended?

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 28 Feb 2007, 04:12

nick H wrote:Time to do some downloading.... but I don't seem to be getting on well with the badongo site: it just says loading. Is this waiting period very extended?

The wait on bandago is only around 15 seconds and then it should show you a few letters to type in before you can download.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Feb 2007, 12:40

I waited many minutes...

I hope it isn't a site that requires IE?

I'd try again, but at this rate it'll probable be quicker to wait for CDs to become available

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 28 Feb 2007, 13:18

Yes
will be given ,on saturday when we meet..march 3rd

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Feb 2007, 15:20

That's Good News

The amount of work that you are putting into this is amazing!

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 28 Feb 2007, 15:42

Are the videos ready? Please post even the 1st clip if ready. Many thanks.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 28 Feb 2007, 17:33

No.Not Yet.

kaumaaram · Post by **kaumaaram** » 04 Mar 2007, 20:57

OM Sri Ganesaya Namaha

Cool: I think the compliments expressed by the forum members (including the well written review of CML) must be passed on to TV Ramprasadh.

CML: For "Ganeer" I suggest that we may use "robust". You may recall that all the carnatic reviewers like SVK and MN had used this word to praise Vairamangalam Lakshminarayanan's voice. Where the voice is mellifluous, melodious, the word "magical" has been used.

Kaumaaram

kaumaaram · Post by **kaumaaram** » 04 Mar 2007, 20:58

Nick: I think the gentleman you are referring to is Manakkal Sriram. His posture was indeed that as though he himself was performing. It showed how he enjoyed the concert. His involvement from the moment he entered was great.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 04 Mar 2007, 21:54

kaumaaram

Many of the words in our musical parlance do defy translation. I remember the musical reviews by 'Kalki' in the Vikatan those days and later in his own magazines. Those reviews themselves were musical. The greatness of giants like SSI,MVI,CVB,GNB were known to the world more through Kalki's reviews. Musiri's thiruvaDi sharaNam was known to the music world only through Kalki and Rasikas used to clamour for it all the time as MaNakkaal would vouch himself. TVRP did capture that spirit that day and the audio is still ringing in my ears while I am waiting to see it for myself !

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Mar 2007, 23:50

kaumaaram wrote:Nick: I think the gentleman you are referring to is Manakkal Sriram. His posture was indeed that as though he himself was performing. It showed how he enjoyed the concert. His involvement from the moment he entered was great.

That is not an excuse to disturb.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Mar 2007, 00:02

...OK, I'm being too grumpy here.

I guess that the informal nature of the event is more permissive.

My views on how Chennai audiences spoil Chennai concerts are well known, and not much disputed.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 05 Mar 2007, 00:09

I recall during a concert (can't remember who the artiste was) at SV temple, Pittsburgh, years ago, TRS was sitting in the front seat and putting talam and saying 'bhale!' and 'sabhash!' throughout the concert. Some people in the audience were grumbling.

I suppose musicians get to take such liberties when they attend concerts...?

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 05 Mar 2007, 13:04

That is not an excuse to disturb.
..informal nature of the event is more permissive

front seat and putting talam and saying 'bhale!' and 'sabhash!' throughout the concert

My few cents...

It is these issues which define our Music for the average rasika- someone who was not fortunate enough to learn it himself and learns to live with the feeling that there is much more to it than what he is able to percieve.
As a rank outsider to CM, I brought with me years of experience of listening to small time HM singers in such cosy surroundings.One only has to watch the eyes of such singers from close distance.
There is such a craving for the need to lock themselves with the audiences perceptions.There are smiles which are so inviting and beseeching and almost seeming to say -Did this move you ?
Only in a particular phase in the vilambith,where there is a mild change in the pace - does the artist feel the need to disengage himself and explore a bit more with his own thoughts.
Armed with this kind of an experience , I have never found these exclamations as disruptive unless they were uttered for the sake of attracting attention.
Why Bhale and shabash alone.The most prominent ones in my experience were Ayyo (with such a strong dose of sighing) , Tchu Tchu ( a kind of sound our domestic lizard makes) .
Disruptive ?
Not if one considers that the listener is just struck by Tyagarajas abilities to take peek into the mind of a young orphaned girl waiting for her saviour bridegroom- Ayyo how does he ever get to know of such ideas -and the singer is moving full blast with that famous song in Reethigowla )

Not that the disciplined westerner is insulated from such feeling .Reams and reams have been written on How Tolstoy could decipher the workings of a young adloescent girl while creating his Natalie in War and Peace-
But this is poetry in motion...These Bhales and Shabhash's

What can one say of a system of music where a teacher says :
"It is alright , the notes exist in arohanas and avarohanas , but if you employ them this way, you will kill the character of the raga-
damage is more in Kharaharapriya than in Kalyani "-

Ha ! the subtleties of this music.

My mind goes back to the back benches of KGS in the early 80s.
What a place to pick up these priceless lessons..
And believe me,
one out of every Ten in the audience would be singing some song , while walking back home after the concert.
I have it all photographed in my memory , as I hastened to catch the last 12G Bus.

And compare it with the response of audience when NDTV sticks up a mike at them as they leave the hall after a Zubin Mehtas performance and asks

"How did you like it?"

Woken up from a stupor (probably caused by 2 hours of disciplined silence)
"Hmmm, I liked it in my own way , You see.especially the point where the crowd is at the gates of the fort (Bastille ?) I could feel the crunch of the gates opening nearby...."

Give me any day , a maestro who reacts to
"a swara passage where one Note, which was obscure till a point, starts developing an ego"

and lets me into his tiny window of appreciation..

http://rapidshare.com/files/19479062/bhairavi.mp3.html

Listen to this track by TRS , and I hope I have made myself clear.there are oohs and aahs even in teaching session

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 05 Mar 2007, 13:16

Though I did not know TRS until he came and stayed till the end of the concert at my CD Release, folks in my family have known him very well. He was there, encouraging and putting tALam to Sumitra Nitin's singing. When I happened to sit next to him towards the end of the concert, he talked to me in an an affable manner, telling me that I should bring out the other songs too, in volumes of notated text. Though Sumitra was at first a bit awed to see TRS, Vedavalli, T.Rukmini, Jayalakshmi Santhanam and Prapancham, all in a row (first row), she said that she wasn't nervous after the first few moments. It was the bad mike that made her feel uneasy!
I am always gratified to see musicians attending concerts of others. On an evening when they are free and are not traveling, they could spend some time in a concert hall. It is not only encouraging for the performer, but is an oppurtunity for them to get a feel for the music that is prevalent. They can get some points on how to improve their own singing.
I am sure there are more than the ones that I have spotted in concert halls in the audience: Vijay Shiva, Sanjay, Suryaprkash, Aruna Sairam, Ravi Kiran, Guru Charan--and of course, a few guru musicians at their shishya's concerts...

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 05 Mar 2007, 13:29

I must confess I am one of those front row people who 'disturb' others with my talam slapping. And I am just a 'puzhu' infront of giants like TRS.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 05 Mar 2007, 14:48

Hmmm Jayaram same here - I just cannot enjoy a concert unless I keep time (no matter how inaccurately) but I do worry about two things:

1) Disturbing sensitive ears such as Nick's
2) Confusing performers with wrong talam (I can recall a couple of instances when the perfomers almost pleaded with me to stop!)

I have developed a less noisy technique of keeping time now except for Tanis in which, without vigorous thigh slapping, (and many times even with) I am totally lost...But, although I am concerned about audience decorum, I think spontaneous audiences response/interaction is very much a part of our music and am not sure if Western-style concert manners are a relevant benchmark....I only object to chatting, mobile phones, plastic bag/bottle fondling (arggggghhh) and of course, pre-tani walk-outs...you could, of course, argue that these are now a part of our tradition as well!

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 05 Mar 2007, 15:13

I remember in a new year's eve concert a few years back, Umayalpuram Sivaraman was accompanying Ramani and MSG who were playing Viriboni in tisram. He had to stop them because a chap in the front row was incorrectly putting talam.

On another note ... in Saturday's concert by TM Krishna with Umayalpuram Sivaraman people actually came in from outside when they knew the thani was beginning!

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 05 Mar 2007, 15:27

Last year for a local vina concert I was 'volunteered' to provide talam for the mami who was playing the vina. I tell you, that was a tension-filled experience! It's one thing to keep talam occasionally, and another when you have to do it as a duty, esp when you feel the stares of several people on you!

I promised myself never to take on such responsibilites again.

(I'm happy to say the mami thanked me at the end of the concert. I'm sure she was just being polite...)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 Mar 2007, 23:15

I think spontaneous audiences response/interaction is very much a part of our music and am not sure if Western-style concert manners are a relevant benchmark

I agree and as you said moderation is the key. Also, the western concert manners apply only to the classical genre. You will hear audience participation/response/interaction in Jazz concerts.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Mar 2007, 23:20

There is nothing that freezes my poor laya sense more quickly than an on-stage artist noticing my talam-putting! <blush>

But the place for thigh-slapping is in the classroom, and is exactly what my guruji recommends for getting it into your blood! Talam can be put, in the concert, silently. Even a 'clap' (and the theory books do not define it as a vigorous slap of the thigh

) can be done without sound. What sound, other than those those genuine expressions of appreciation and joy mentioned, should come from the audience? It is the job of the artists on stage to make the noises.

I would particularly plead (sorry Vijay) for talam silence during the thani!

The addition of the rhythmic beat to sarva laghu does little harm to the beauty of the composition, other than distraction --- but it really detracts from off-beat passages.

See... say, for example, the beat comes on the pause in Tha Dhi , Ghi Na Thom, then we should not hear Tha Dhi Clap Ghi Na Thom: the phrasing is destroyed.

I embarrassed to tell this story, as I've never told the person involved...

I have watched and loved Balu Raguraman's violin accompaniment in London many times. For the first few concerts, though, I use to find it very irritating that he would put talam during the thani (as a violinist should helpfully do) for the mridangist, not realising that each clap that he did near to his violin mic would thunder out into the auditorium. Knowing him much better, years later, I'm sure he would say, "idiot: why didn't you tell me?", but I was so shy to crticize anything that an artist did as part of their music.

This situation lasted some months, until one day I noticed that he had changed his technique, moved his hands away from the mic, and was putting talam quietly. Somebody must have mentioned it. (and Balu, if you ever read this, I apologise for not telling you...)

I've noticed that my teacher (and I guess they tend to one's yardstick) never puts talam at all in a concert audience, unless the artists on stage indicate a request, or are students.

One can get carried away, of course. I'd hate to put a lid on any person's joy of music!

I also believe that this music is the music of the small venue, not of the concert hall. It is music to sit close to, to see not only the eyes of the musicians, but also their fingers on string and skin, and for the musicians to see and sense us too.

If I take an flight of fancy in which I dress an Indian concert audience in those stuffy evening dresses and have them sit upright in utter silence --- yes, it would be dead! It would be horrible!

I often say "if people want to chat to music, why can't they stay at home and put on a CD?"

But perhaps I should sometimes ask myself... "If I want to float away deep inside with my eyes shut and be aware of nothing but the music --- then perhaps I should stay at home and put on a CD"

Ahh well.... It'd be easy if life was black and white.

But dull

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 05 Mar 2007, 23:26

vasanthakokilam wrote:Also, the western concert manners apply only to the classical genre.

Also (maybe) because they have their eyes fixed on the book - it might be distraction if people clap etc.

Recently I attended a Trio concert. The audience did not clap even after the piece ended. Until the performers smiled at the audience- that's when they applauded. ( the performers where chinese woman

)

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 05 Mar 2007, 23:26

I feel a CM concert is more akin to jazz than the typical western classical. There's lots of improv in a jazz concert, more audience participation, quite a bit of stress on rhythm (and a tani to boot!), etc. - very much like a CM kutcheri.

Years ago as a grad student in Pittsburgh, I used to frequent a jazz place, and there was this blind keyboardist who had actually heard about (and heard recordings of) KVN, MDR etc.! We would end our chats with a Namaste... In fact, one Friday evening I drove straight down to this place after a CM kutcheri at SV temple - it was a great experience to hear the two styles of music one after the other...(a Coltrane or Miles Davis playing a jazzy version of Swara raga sudha - aha!)
(Cool-ji is surely having an effect on me...

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 05 Mar 2007, 23:40

While I can see Nick's point, to me the thigh slapping at a concert is a kind of graduation - call it 'arangetram' if you will - for a rasika on the layam aspect...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 06 Mar 2007, 00:20

Most of you know (at least by watching the videos) as to how SSI punishes his thigh. One of my friend said that mami would apply poultice after the concert

But this is classic!(not my observation since I was not present !) In the classroom when he asks a student to sing he would sit with the sishyas and put thaaLam vigorously. Once a (new) sishya sat close to him and was putting thaaLam with him. Suddenly mama blasted a searing beat on the sishya's thigh (no! there was no bleeding). Everybody was stunned. Mama broke the silence saying:
"thappu thaaLam pOTTA appaDiththaan..."
(if you put wrong thaaLam that is what you get

I don't know whether students ever dared sitting close to him thereafter

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 Mar 2007, 01:39

jayaram wrote:While I can see Nick's point, to me the thigh slapping at a concert is a kind of graduation - call it 'arangetram' if you will - for a rasika on the layam aspect...

But do you not see my point that thigh-slapping has nothing to do with putting talam? There is no such kriya.

Please put talam with enthusiasm, and as much arm waving as possible: I'm afraid I largely depend on fellow audience members for, at least, checking my own following of the talam. Just silently!

One acid test is --- how would it be if everyone did it? I've been in a mridangam classroom with us all putting tala; you don't get to hear much of the music! What is appropriate to the classroom is not necessarily right for the stage or the audience.

Compare with the 'custom' of humming one's own raga accompaniment, or joining in the song --- and I doubt that there can be a music lover of any system anywhere in the world that has not at least wanted to do that. Are we not irritated when we find the guy next to us doing it?

At least he probably can't be heard two rows away; a clap can.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 06 Mar 2007, 03:38

Nick - point taken.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Mar 2007, 09:47

Nick,
I always appreciate your sensitivity. This time, you have voiced your feelings about thigh slapping very eloquently. You have done it before, in sotto voce. Hearing from you gives a new perspective on things, while we are inured in some of our habits and heritage (including thigh slapping!). Your point about the place of this activity (in the class room) is valid. We can't help it if the artistes indulge in it, though it can be an audience and mike irritant and may take away the fine moments of the vocalist's and violinist's elaborations. In thani, however, I don't mind it that much, though it would be ideal not to hear a chorus of claps. I prefer the tALA in the air which some vidwans in the front row indulge in. You are right. Children and adults should be encourged to learn with a good sense of tALA by slapping on the thigh (the force of which I don't want to comment on).
I wish though, that I had not feared tALA in my earlier years. Wish I had been instructed that thigh slapping while learning is good for a healthy tALA...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Mar 2007, 12:02

Starting to feel like being there....

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 07 Mar 2007, 14:18

Cool-ji, thanks for the videos. Btw, is it just the way it appears on my screen, or are all the people in the video that fat?

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 07 Mar 2007, 15:53

Coolkarni
Thank you very much...

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 07 Mar 2007, 16:03

all the people in the video that fat?

Ha ! So there is an explanation .Something wrong with the Video format.
Now why did I waste so much time editing all the portions which featured me ?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 07 Mar 2007, 21:26

They say the camera adds 10 lbs!!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Mar 2007, 21:30

small slices of 50Mb

Wish I could get a decent broadband internet connection!

Arasi and Jayaram, thank you for your kind comments and understanding.

Actually, as a practical point, I find that the accuracy of my time-keeping comes not so much with a slap or any kind of sharp movement, but with smooth and flowing motion of the hand, up and down. The up point is sometimes as important to me as the down as then I can feel the measure of half a beat. The pendulum moves smoothly, not in jerks. But for those lucky people with real laya-sense, the beat is inside, so it doesn't matter how they express it.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 07 Mar 2007, 21:34

Wish I could get a decent broadband internet connection

that was not meant for chennaites.
your member-copy will be handed over on 17th.

You may like to know that the video starts with you in the first frame, though.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 07 Mar 2007, 21:41

I was one of those plastic bottle criminals. I did it once in a concert when I was thinking of my boss and wanted to bash him until the artists cooled me down with their music. But, I don't "fondle" them!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Mar 2007, 09:08

Thanks for those final shots where we get to meet our Rasika family!
Clearly you guys are quite stretched out

Quit smoking, listen to lot of CM and keepup those friendly smiles and associations; you'll all live to vedic 120years!

Thanks to one and all of you for the support, spirit and sincerity from all of us; your cyber friends!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Mar 2007, 19:08

Good news that I can expect a copy

No need to worry about the fraudband then

My small experience of processing video on a PC is that it takes hours and hours to achieve the smallest clip! It is awesome that you are doing so much work

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 08 Mar 2007, 22:45

Cool-ji, I noticed you skipped from 2B to 4A. Was this intentional or did you miss 3A,3B?

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 09 Mar 2007, 04:31

i missed it .
will do tomorrow- have to rush to coimbatore today

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 09 Mar 2007, 06:59

Cool-ji, no rush. One request though, could you use any site other than rapidshare please? That site is simply impossible to use. Many thanks.