Tala in Music

[shobanasree]

Hi,
I wish to know what is Tala? Why do we have different Tala? For each Raga why are there talas? What is a Beat and units? Lots of questions in basic music. I would be glad if anyone could reply.

Regards,
Shobana Ram.

[sbala]

Join the club! Let's say a song takes 100 seconds to render and it has 5 lines. We could choose to render the first line for 30 seconds, second line for 20 seconds, third line for 23 seconds and fourth line for 26 seconds and the fifth one for 1 second (totalling 100). If we do it that way, it would be very difficult to know when a line is going to end even though we might be singing with great sruthi and raga knowledge.

Thalam gives this missing structure to the song where the song is divided into equally spaced intervals. for instance, in the above example if each of the lines were divided into 20 second intervals, it gives a structure to the song and it would be easy to follow and you could spot the pattern. Sorry, that's the layman's explanation that I know! Over to the experts.

[mridhangam]

Member Shobanasree

Before answering my sincere adivise to member is that you please go through all the posts, particularly with reference to Talangas and other articles listed in this Forum which will clear most of your doubts. But for reiteration I am trying to give a different interpretation below to suit your questions.

Tala is also called Talam (The word is supposed to have been derived when Lord Shiva Performed the Cosmic Dance these words came out of his dance). We can very well imagine one thing here that the typical sound emanating from the non vibrating step would be "Tha" and the sound emanating from the "Salangai" or the leg band worn by the dancers, wil be "Lam" (we generally say jal, jal, jal). Actually the sound emanating from it is "Lam". That is how the Word "Talam" came into existence.

The next question is "Why do we have different Tala?"
Assume we have all adi tala only or only Rupaka Tala without any varieties at all would any one listen to our music ? The best thing in Carnatic Music is the rhythmic variety that it offers and world wide there is no other Rhythmic System as developed as ours be it Scientifically, be it mathematically, be it aesthetically, be it technically.

The next question "For each Raga why are there talas ? "
Member Shobanasree, here we have to bear in mind that there are no Talas for specific Ragas. It would mean that Kalyani Raga will have only Adi Tala, Shankarabharanam will have only Rupaka Tala etc. This is not the case in Carnatic Music. Raga does not have direct relationship with Tala. Raga has direct relationship with the Kriti and the Kriti is set to a particular Tala based on Vaggeyakkara's rhythmic mood while creating that kriti. That is all and this has been followed for centuries and major number of Kritis which are still in vogue are maintained in the Same Raga and Tala also.

What is a Beat and Units ?

I am not very clear with this question. But let me try. A beat is a part of a particular tala. Kindly refer to another thread on Talangas to know more about the parts of a tala. Units can be taken both as Number of Units per Cycle of a Tala and also Number of units a Beat can take within itself. If we take Adi Tala it has a total of 8 Units each of the 8 Beats contain 1 syllable in First speed and 2 syllables in 2nd Speed and 4 syllables in 3rd speed and so on and so forth. These syllables can also be termed as Units within a Beat itself.

Hope I have answered.
Sharma Garu Pls clarify if I have made any mistakes.
Thanks
Mannarkoil J Balaji

[Nick H]

Talam is as universal as music. It is simply rhythm.

Rhythm is something happening regularly and repetitively. It is there in walking, it is there in our heartbeat.

When we walk on the street there is rhythm, they rhythm of a two-beat cycle. We can walk fast, slow or any speed. Even if we have some leg problem that causes us to limp, rhythm is still there.

On the other hand, when we climb a steep surface, we must think about each placing of the foot and there is no rhythm. (Perhaps this kind of footwork is more analagous to alapana?! --- or like the sort of composition that sbala describes )

[vasanthakokilam]

The best thing in Carnatic Music is the rhythmic variety that it offers and world wide there is no other Rhythmic System as developed as ours be it Scientifically, be it mathematically, be it aesthetically, be it technically.

I understand the mathematical and technical aspects to some extent. Can you elaborate on the musical aesthetics contributed by the rhythmic variety inherent in our music? That will be very educational for many of us. Gathi variations ( the variations in the sub beats of the main beat ) and thalas like Misra Chpau and Khanda chapu provide a direct aesthetical diversity. In other threads, with respect to the various thala angas, we have learnt that arudhi ( pAdagarbA ) provides the anchor which falls on a thala anga. So there is a connection between a thala structure and the aesthetics. What are the other ways the variety in thala angas contribute to the musical aesthetics?

[shobanasree]

Member mridhangam,
Thank You for the explanation.

Regards,
Shobana Ram

[msakella]

Dear member, Shob(h)ana Ram, Our brother-members, sbala, mrid(h)angam & nick H - all have already defined Tala very nicely in these columns just like describing an elephant from different directions. And I too try to do a little in my direction. Just like millimeters, metres, kilo-metres etc., to measure the length of time we have second, minute, hour, day, week, fortnight, month, year etc., in western discipline of measuring the time and kshana, lava, kaashta, nimisha,vilipta, lipta, ghatika, ahas, raathri, dina, vaara (week), paksha, maasa (month), ayana (uttarayana & dakshinayana), savatsara (year) ---- yuga, mahaayuga etc., in our Indian discipline of measuring the time. In the same manner in music if we are able to understand the applications of Taladashapranas we will find the measuring discipline of the time of our compositions composed by our great Vaggeyakaras, be it compositions or pallavis or like-things. To tell the truth, you can understand the Tala with much more clarity if you learn Indian music even without explaining it much. But, to know about it without learning it, in fact, makes a difference of clarity just like attending a seminar on ‘making gulab-jamun’ than eating a piece of it practically or seeing a scene of swimming in cinema than swimming yourself in a pond (of course, without crocodiles only) or questioning a singer’s ability by sitting and listening to him as an audience than singing yourself on the dais. I hope you can understand the difference.
In regard to the musical aesthetics contributed by the rhythmic variety - we can find the difference when the last syllable ‘ye’ of the charana ‘Madhyrapurinilaye’ of the Kriti ‘Meenakshi mudam dehi - Gamakakriya - Adi’ of Mutthuswamy Dikshitar which falls on the beat of the 1st Druta and the last syllable ‘ra’ of the charana ‘Kanakaambaradhara’ of the Kriti ‘Paramapaavana rama - Poorvakalyani - Adi’ of Ramnad Sreenivasa Iyyengar which falls before the same beat. Like this, so many kinds of beauties which cannot even be expressed in words, could very well be found in so many palaces in the compositions of great masters. Many of such things obviously prove that there is much aesthetics between the Tala structure, musical structure and the lyrical structure of the composition and they all could only be felt but not described in words. amsharma.

[Nick H]

like describing an elephant from different directions Beautiful analogy

Here is a simplistic (the kind I like best ) example of how rhythm structure affects the aesthetic of music, taken from Western music: were it not so, a march would sound the same as a waltz.

One way in which carnatic rhythm differs from much other music is in the way that units are combined. Western music tends to multiply; carnatic music is happy to add (eg a two-beat unit to a three-beat unit to make a cohesive five-beat unit.)

We have some strange numbers in our music: apart from 3, the odd numbers are (I think) rare as units in Western music. But they are not unknown, and Western folk music has some irregular and odd rhythms.

I recall seeing a choral presentation on Television in UK some years ago: I was eating my dinner at the time, but the rhythm of an Eastern European group caught my attention and I realised that it exactly followed ThaKaDhimiThaKaTaKiTa. How much sankeerna chapu talam music do we actually ever hear?

[mridhangam]

Mr.Akellagaru
I almost wrote a big paragraph on the aesthetics item of our tala structure but then abandoned it for the same reason given by you above. Each of the kritis we have in Carnatic music lends some rhythmic variety or other be it atheetha or anagata or sama eduppus. "Chete Budhi Maanura" is atheetha offering scope of making rhythmic varieties both for the eduppu and also for arudis. The word Chete itself is used for 6 counts cha (1) te (5-->1+4 karvais), Budhi is for 5 counts and Maanura is for 6 counts again to fall in Arudi. What i am talking here is not the bare total counts of 6+5+6 making the total to 17 and to end in arudi. I am talking abt the lyrical beauty intermingled with rhythmic variations by judiciously using karvais to fill up the words. There are umpteen kritis in all the eduppus offering rhythmic beauty which can be very well taken for aesthetic applications.
J.Balaji

[msakella]

Dear member, mridhangam, As you wrote we cannot bring out all the heart-felt aesthetic beauties of our sacred music in terms of words like a newsman who is always interested in extracting some explanation or other. A sweet can only be felt by swallowing it than describing it. amsharma.

[vasanthakokilam]

balaji, msakellaji: Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this topic. Can I take the liberty to delve on this a bit?

So far, we have touched some interesting aspects of how musical aesthetics are brought out by rhythmical variations. Just to list them ( and adding some flesh here and there and bringing in ideas from past discussions ):

1) First, the obvious one, Thalas of different total beat counts produce their own aesthetic differences. ( e.g. an Adi thala song has a different feel than a rupaka or chapu thala song ).

2) The other obvious one is the kAlA variations. The thala remains the same but one packs in double the number of swaras per beat to create the effect of faster speed and half the number of swaras to create the effect of slower speed.

3) The same thala with gathi and kaLai variations produce different musical effects.

3 a) gathi variations - type 1 - Keep the outer beat length the same and vary the number of sub-beats. It is easy to show that mathematically this is a general case of item 2 but it has different musical aesthetics, hence the differences in nomenclature.

3 b) gathi variations - type 2 - Keep the sub-beat interval the same and vary the number of sub-beats per beat.

3 c) kaLai variations - Say, two kalAi is a doubling of the number of sub-beats. It is easy to show that mathematically this is a special case of 3 b) but it has a different musical aesthetics hence possibly the special name.

4) Composers can combine the sub-beat counts in different ways to good musical effect in their composition. That is, the same thala in the same gathi can be made to feel different with such cross-rhythms.

5) Syncopation - The stress in the music does not fall on the 1st sub-beat of the main beat but on subsequent sub-beats. Creates some kind of tension, causing inexperienced thala-keepers like me to lose track of the thala . The pay-off is in the resolution when the stress points in the song gets back to the beat. There are some similariteis in aesthetics between 4 and 5.

6) Combination of 5 and ( 2 or 3 ) is especially noticable as having a very different feel. Kalpanaswaram super-masters are good at this. ( and during thani avarthanam )

7) The resting points and kArvais make a difference in the feel.

8) The Eduppu and Arudhi has a major effect on how a composition is structured. A specific case is, many compositions tend to rest on the first beat of the thala and in the mid point. The non-sama eduppu songs have their own 'mystique' or 'sophistication' about them.

Beyond this, I would like to dwell a bit more and learn to appreciate the aesthetics of various thala angas themselves at further detail. One glaring thing about the above list is, other than 7 and 8, the thala anga has not played much of a role yet in the aesthetics.

Given that one can put together thalas of different anga structure of arbitrary complexity, I just loudly wonder why the basic 7 were chosen for the suladi saptha system. I keep thinking that there has to be some aesthetical considerations in the choice and arrangement of the angas. One question I ponder is, "Is this a minimal set, beyond which there are diminishing returns in terms of aesthetics?". If someone else also thinks so, I would like to know their opinions on why it is so, from an artistic point of view.

I am writing this as a way to get at the artistic aspects and not necessarily the science. Just to be sure, two thalas of the same avarthana length but different anga structure does produce a different feel ( contributed mostly by the locations of the Arudhi and kArvai ). I am just looking to expand on that.

I realize CM is an art form first and foremost, and quite an advanced and sophisticated one at that when it comes to rhythm. And it is hard to completely define all aspects of it with rules. But I am personally uncomfortable with the implication, quite possibly a wrong implication that, other than 7 and 8 above, the angas are merely a counting device and for the management of the thala cycle ( akin to self-conducting, drawing a parallel to the conductor in western classical music ). And not as a fundamental way to create various musical effects and in structuring compositions. In other threads we had already discussed that mridangists do not necessarily care for the various angas, for them the sub-beats and the total avarthana duration matters more ( other than 7 and 8 above ). Sarmaji had already shown that major stress point structure in great compositions do not necessarily mirror the anga structure ( implying angas do not have much to do with major and minor stresses necessarily ).

I will stop my ramblings here and wait for some education from you all.

[sbala]

VK,
I thought the time taken per avarthanam cannot change once you fix it. I think that's what 3b could result in if you keep the sub-beat interval same. All variations that you have listed should take this into account. You can only pack more or less in that fixed time using some patterns. Infact, if you are allowed to change the time taken by a beat (by keeping the time taken by the sub-beats same and changing the number of sub-beats), then it is more likely that you are changing the thalam to suit your song rather than singing according to the thalam you defined as the base. This is very similar to changing your sruthi in the middle of the song to suit your voice. This is just my hypothesis and not an opinion:).

Anyway, a good summary of the different possibilities

[msakella]

Dear member, vasanthakokilam, Your analysis is very nice and more than enough. But, still you want for some more education in this direction I can’t help. Even professionals are not used to analyse like you. However, there is one important point to note in this connection. Persons who are having much acquaintance with all these different rhythmical structures will have the different relevant feelings of them. But, others, without much acquaintance with such things will not have any feelings at all. In general, many of the professional musicians have such relevant feelings in respect of generally used Talas only but not with many other Talas. So, even many of the composers have preferred to compose their compositions in generally used Talas only to make them easily accessible to one and all. amsharma.

[vasanthakokilam]

VK, I thought the time taken per avarthanam cannot change once you fix it. I think that's what 3b could result in if you keep the sub-beat interval same. All variations that you have listed should take this into account. You can only pack more or less in that fixed time using some patterns. Infact, if you are allowed to change the time taken by a beat (by keeping the time taken by the sub-beats same and changing the number of sub-beats), then it is more likely that you are changing the thalam to suit your song rather than singing according to the thalam you defined as the base. This is very similar to changing your sruthi in the middle of the song to suit your voice. This is just my hypothesis and not an opinion:).

Anyway, a good summary of the different possibilities

Sbala, there was quite an elaborate discussion on this topic a while back. Here is the thread reference.
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=385&p=1

[sbala]

VK,
It's quite a long thread and I'll go through it again. But it's much easier to change the duration of the outer beat and call it a change in nadai (like changing ur sruthi in the middle of a song to sing something difficult). The challenge is to make the change within the same time of the outer beat.

[arunk]

Just to be sure, two thalas of the same avarthana length but different anga structure does produce a different feel ( contributed mostly by the locations of the Arudhi and kArvai ). I am just looking to expand on that.

How do you base the first statement on? Any examples (non-RTP) you have already looked into? In any case, here is a possible angle to look into:

If angas mattered to composers then some evidence may be available if we pick krithis in different talas whose total #of aksharas are the same and compared/contrasted them. So if we pick 8, we have 3 choices
1. The ubiquitous Adi i.e. catuSra tripuTa (4+2+2)
2. tiSra matya (3+2+3)
3. khaNDa jhampa (5+2+1).

We are most familiar with Adi, but how about others? In the case of a 8 akshara tala where Adi is a possibility, why would a composer pick something other than it? If there is indeed significance to the angas, maybe evidence for it has got to be there in this case of 8 akshara tAla? Of course I have no idea what to look for in terms of evidence, and probably any evidence would be beyond my capabilities to comprehend.

In any case if we look at trinity as a start, we have Syama Sastry whose has composed in both these talas:

tiSra matya
Syama Sastry has 2 krithis in triSra matya - one of which is a varnam. The krithis are nIvE gatiyani (varnam in kalyANi), and brhannAyaki (madyamAvati).

khaNDa jhampa
Syama Sastry has 1 krithi in khaNDa jhampa and it is sariyevaramma in bhairavi.
Dikshitar has 1 krithi in khaNDa jhampa - abhayAmbikAyAh in kEdAragauLa

I do have notations for all - but nothing pops out immediately. While in some lines, the words seem to align with the internal structure i.e.possibility of stress points and what not, but there as many exceptions as they arent. Also, in the case of Dikshitar krithi, kirtanamala has divided it to 4+4 and perhaps that is why the word splits also adhere to 4+4 a lot.

But then I really dont know what i should be looking for. Only composers can give insights. Also maybe msakella garu and balaji sir have insights.

The question "why tiSra matya/khaNDA jhampa instead of Adi" is still an intriguing one I think. The question is not whether a mridangist would approach it differently, but why would a composer choose it even if for "just the sake of it", and what are the implications.

Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

Good post Arun. It sets this whole discussion on 'musical aesthetics of thala angas' and 'why thala angas' on a well defined platform. Hope the composers and other experts will offer their views.

[msakella]

Dear brother-members, arunk & vasanthakokilam, In our music, while Shruti gives us pleasure and Laya builds up confidence, in Laya, while even-gati gives us pleasure odd-gati builds up confidence. Both are inter-dependents and are very much needed to lead a fulfilled life. Everybody runs after pleasure but unless he does things with enough confidence he will not get success and resulting pleasure. To get confidence one must work hard with very high discipline like Shri M.S.Gopalakrishnan, the only Great Master of Violin. Everybody prefers to have only evens and it is all the same in respect of numbers or Gatis also. Thus, Chaturashra-gati reigns the world of music being very much nearer to the heart-beat of any being. Here it is very important to note that while 2 (Pakshini-gati) is half of 4 i.e., Chaturashra, again the 1 (Ekaaki-gati) is half of 2 and thus, 2 and 1 are part and parcel of Chaturashra only but neither of the remaining others, Trisra, Khanda, Mishra and Sankeerna (of course, Sankeerna is nothinbg but akin of Trisra). Even according to Talaprastara we will get 128 varieties of 8-units (refer to our brother-member, sbala, if needed) and, among them, this 41st prastara carries 4+2+2 even avoiding any odd-talanga its structure and this even rhythmical form has been named after ‘Adi’. Even in the multiples of ‘4’ the ‘4’ is too shorter and ’12 is a bit longer and ‘8’ is neither shorter nor longer. No doubt, our ancestors are great thinkers along with high quality of discipline. That is why, they came out with a highly precisive system of Talaprastara. Eventhough many are not aware of it, this has, beyond any doubt, been proved 1000 times in Talaprastara which is nothing but mathematics.
That is why every composer used this Chaturashra-gati much in his compositions.
Even in any concert most of the compositions sung by the artists are of Chaturashra-gati only and with occasional odd-gatis for a contrast. Even after using odd-gati for a contrast like a Mridanga Vidwan in his Tani he arrives at Chaturashra-gati in the end for the relief of everybody including himself. Many of the musicians are generally able to, some how, manage with Chaturashra-gati but not with other odd-gatis at all. But, we can eat more sweet with occasional hot in between just like a Vivadi note enhances the beauty of the Samvadi note as per Dr. R.Sathyanarayana, the walking encyclopaedia of our Indian Culture of Mysore. Even though it is easier to manage with even-number-gati it is not that easy to manage with odd-number-gati. That is why even our ancestors preferred to have only one even-number-gati and four other Gatis of odd-numbers, Trisra (3), Khanda (5), Mishra (7) and Sankeerna (9). That is why any music teacher who doesn’t have the required acquaintance with the smallest odd-number-gati i.e., Trisra-gati at the least, in addition to Chaturashra-gati, is not fit at all to be a music teacher (but a magic teacher). amsharma.

[arunk]

Thanks msakella-garu. So you are equating the overwhelming prevalence of catuSra gati in comparison with other gatis, to the same kind of prevalence of Adi/rUpaka i.e talas with angas with even numbered (and possibly power of 2) aksharas vs others.

I did not see that way before and that is indeed a very intriguing angle. I guess even though miSra CApu is probably the next most common - it probably still lags behind Adi and rUpaka by miles

(Lakshman - is it easy to get a % of # of songs in your db in Adi vs roopaka vs other "common" tALa? I know you had done something similar with ragas and melas before)

Arun

[arunk]

Hi Folks,

Maybe I am going out on a limb here but here is a small experiment. I do not know how successful it is going to be. However, judging from the adventurousness and enthusiasm folks show here, I think at the least it will occupy a couple or more of you in an engaging manner for a little while .

Here is a "krithi" (if you can call it so) for which i would like you to attach a tune to:

pallavi:
arugil vA vElavA ||
azhagiya kumarA ||

anupallavi:
SaravaNabhavanE vA ||
Sankaran maganE vA || pallavi ||

caraNam:
pazhaniyin pazhamE nI vA ||
pazhamudir sOlaiyE nI vA ||
tiruttaNi maNiyE nI vA ||
tiruccendUr Sendil ANDavA || pallavi ||

I have indicated neither the tala nor the raga. I have only indicated occurrences of tala cycle ends (|| indicates cycle end). You are free to pick any tala you want, and of course free to choose any one raga or even any tune (no specific raga in mind) for that matter. (no viruttam style - as the experiment is related to significance of tala).

The only constraint is that the occurences of "||" above must tee up to a cycle end of your tala. Note that if you want, each line above can take 2 cycles of your tala as that will still ensure || above will match a cycle end (in other words you need not have 2 cycles for pallavi, anupallavi etc., 4 is ok).

The object of the experiment is to find people's perspectives on: Which tala seems to fit best for the above structure? Does the structure lend itself better to any specific tala?

You can post your results either as audio (i.e. for the bold and brave ones - the ones i look up to )
or
You can also simply indicate it in notation. For example something in this format:

Code: Select all

sI ,ta mmA ||  mA ,yam mA ||

Above shows how a line is spread across 2 cycles of rUpaka cApu tALA. For the first cycle you have sI for first beat ,ta for second and mmA for third beat. This will tell us how you spread the words across the tala. By comparing this sort of info for different talas that others may come up with, we may still deduce useful information. Also, I am hoping this will embolden the more self-conscious among us as it wont requite a demonstration of our playinig/singing skills!

So here is a plea/call to the tune-smith in you! Let us see if tala angas are just purely academic or if there is something more to them or whether they will remain an enigma!

Arun

[sbala]

Hey Arun,
This is awesome. I think you will end up with something akin to the Turing test for a thala..(If you cannot distinguish between adi and trisra matya without seeing the performer, then both are equivalent!)

[arunk]

bala - i am sort of on the other camp but it may very well turn out as you have indicated

[rajeshnat]

Arunk
Excellent demonstration of how creative you are ? Fortunately for all of you, I don't qualify to participate ?

[arunk]

rajesh - That was a contrived attempt by me - it was not a natural process by any means

But you should give it a shot if possible.

Arun

[ramakriya]

Interesting experiment Just saw this... I am singing it in mukhAri, and to me it looks like misra chApu fits best.. In pallavi and anu pallavi I have almost one free tALa filled with akAra - Buy hey, that's great for developing sangatis And I am singing the caraNa in madhyamakAla

-Ramakriya

[drshrikaanth]

Hmm- experiment

arugil vA | vElavA || This line best fits 2 Avartas of khaNDa cApu. Can be stretched to 2 rUpaka Avartas.

azhagiya kumarA- caturaSra Eka

SaravaNabhavanE vA
Sankaran maganE vA

The above two lines naturally fit khaNDa Eka. Can be fit slightly awkwardly into 2 Avartas of khaNDa cApu.

pazhaniyin pazhamE nI vA ||- triSra jhampe , 2 Avartas of rUpaka will do
pazhamudir sOlaiyE nI vA ||- 2 Avaratas of rUpaka
tiruttaNi maNiyE nI vA ||- triSra jhampe, 2 Avartas of rUpaka will do
tiruccendUr Sendil ANDavA - 2 Avartas of rUpaka

[arunk]

thanks drs and ramakriya.

drs - obviously my amateurish attempts may be the reason why different lines are best fits for different taLa . But if possible what would be best is if we stick one tala for the entire song, then how does the song "in general as a whole" fit to it.

I am of course aware that one can fit the song to different talas by stretching the syllables - but that is ok too. We can see how the word/syllable distribution is for the different talas - and here it would be most interesting to compare the distribution between 2 talas with same mAtra count (per line/section).

Of course - i am most interested in the actual word distribution as you came up with whether aurally or visually (as in something like the format i indicated) . I do realize that takes more time and energy - so if you feel like it, please do.

Others (cmlover ) - how about you?

Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

Alright, just to stretch it, I first considered Sankeerna Jathi Dhruva tala ...but settled on tisra jathi matya thala. I like Matya thala's symmetry and the built in symmetry of the words 'arugil va vElava' seems to map to that.

3 count Laghu| 2 count Dhruta | 3 count Laghu

a, ru gil | va , | ve la va || - Possibility 1

aru gil va|, ve| , la va || - Possibility 2

[drshrikaanth]

Sorry I inadvertently wrote maThya when I meant jhampe. Single best fit would be rUpaka tALa (3 counts) or call it triSra Eka.

[arunk]

drs - that makes sense. In fact I was wondering about this yesterday

[arunk]

Ok. If I may bother with the second (and smaller, and i think final) step of the experiment. This shouldnt take much of your time and effort.

I knew that given some words one can map it to different (doesnt mean any) talas and the responses match that. I would think that the words would be stretched differently in each case - particularly for talas with different # of aksharas/mathrais (for pallavi part, anupallavi part). People havent posted the particulars of their versions, but i think even without that we can all agree to this I hope?

Now - when I "composed" this, i definitely had a tALa in mind - and accomodated words (and stretched them) to that structure. So now, I want to see whether just given the word distribution across each line, people can guess the tALa. This is sort of like you hear a composition for the first time (say on radio/computer - i.e. you dont see the performer as sbala said) for the very first time. You have no idea what the tALA is but knowing how the words go and by able to discern the akshara spacing, can one arrive at the correct tALA?

So here it goes on my version.

1. song is set to catusra gati
2. In the barebone version below probably all syllables etc. are in "middle speed" i.e. 2 mathrais per akshara.
3 Per #2, a comma is 1/2 akshara and ; is one akshara
4. Please pay attention to spaces within a line as they indicate delimiters for akshara (btw, this should allow you to guess the # of aksharas in a cycle of the tala i chose)

pallavi:
,a ru gil vA ; vE ,la vA ||
(repeat with some sangatis on vA)
,a zhagi ya ku ma rA ; ; ||
(repeat both lines with alternate sangatis on vA and rA)

anupallavi:
,Sa rava Na | bha va | nE ,vA ; ||
(repeat with sangatis in nE and/or vA)

,Sa nka ran ma ga nE ,vA ; ||
(repeat with sangatis in nE and/or vA)

caranam:
,pa zhani yin pazha mE nI ,vA ; ||
,pa zhamu dir sO lai yE ,vA ; ||
(like anupallavi)
,ti rutta Ni maNi yE nI ,va ; ||
,ti ruccen dUr sen dil AN Da vA ||

Questions:
1. Which tala fits best in your mind to above structure?
2. What about other talas (if any) with same length? How do they fit?

Arun

PS: BTW somehow a tune/phrase in kharaharapriya stood out to me at the beginning hence that was the raga i chose. But I like ramapriya's selection of mukhAri - perhaps more apt for the lyrics

[arunk]

vk - nice! Btw, I will respond more after the second half of the experiment

[ninjathegreat]

Not answering arunk, and trying to fit the structure with my less than meagre abilities, how about aTa? and how about shankarAbharanam?

pallavi:

s g r s *n , ; | r g m p d n s* , | ; | ; ||

aru gil vA , | vE , la vA | ; | ; ||

s* , s* , n , d p | m g m p d p s* , | ; | ; ||

, azhagi ya | ku ma rA , | ; | ; ||

anupallavi:

s* , ; s* n d p | m g r g r , r , | m g r s | ; ||

Sa ra va Na | bha va nE , | vA , | ; ||

s r g r g g m m | m g r g r , r , | s s g r | r r s , ||

, Sanka ran | ma ga nE , | vA , | ; || pallavi ||

caraNam:

s g r r s s r r | r g , m g m m g | g m g r | r m grgr ||


pa zha ni yin | pa zha mE , | nI , | vA , ||

s m g r g , r , | r g m p d n s* , | s* n g* r* | g* r* s* n ||

pa zha mu dir | sO lai yE , | nI , | vA , ||

s* r* g* s* m* g* m* p* | p* d* d* p* m* p* m* | g* p* g* r* | s* , ;||

ti ru tta Ni | ma Ni yE , | nI , | vA , ||

s* , ; s* , n , | d p m g m p d p | s* n n d | s* , ; ||

ti ru ccendUr | Sendil A , | N da | vA , || pallavi ||

I apologize in advance for being wrong!!!!!!

Cheers
ninja

edit: went a wee bit further. I know I'm in the red (face, grade, etc) area now.

edit edit: I don't sing .

[arunk]

ninja,

why not ? My guess would be that this would sound more like a gItam maybe (since you have mostly one syllable per aksharam)?

Arun

[ninjathegreat]

arunk,

would it?????!!!! ...

Ninja

[arunk]

Ok a varnam or a lakshana gItam

Now you have gotten this far means you MUST sing/play

Arun

[Suji Ram]

Nice to see people attempting to compose in different raga /tala.

I could get only as far as a nursery rhyme.

[arunk]

no takers yet for the second half? In some aspects i think it is a lot lot more important step than the first one!

Please try it if you havent yet

Thanks
Arun

[ninjathegreat]

With my count of 12, I can think of rUpaka tALam and sankeerna jaathi jhampa tALam... haven't tried fitting it in yet..

[arunk]

ninja - where are you getting 12 from??

Arun

[ninjathegreat]

I used chatusra jati ata in what I wrote up... that would make it 4+4+2+2... I thoguht it went well with the charaNam... pa zha ni yin | pa zha mE - | nI - | vA - ||.. I'm treating a , as 1 akshara and ; as two... (I did not consider the middle speed, just wrote it down...) rupakam will probably go well with middle speed... Did I make a mistake somewhere?

Cheers
ninja

[mohan]

I am reading this thread late but based on just the lyrics I have set it in Rupaka tala and in raga Atana.

[arunk]

I used chatusra jati ata in what I wrote up... that would make it 4+4+2+2... I thoguht it went well with the charaNam... pa zha ni yin | pa zha mE - | nI - | vA - ||.. I'm treating a , as 1 akshara and ; as two... (I did not consider the middle speed, just wrote it down...) rupakam will probably go well with middle speed... Did I make a mistake somewhere?

Cheers
ninja

no thats ok. I was thinking you were working on the structure I had posted (post #31). That particular structureis the object of the second half of the experiment, which is : given the "external structure" is a specific internal structure (i.e. angas within tala), or set of structures, more plausible or better fit.

But what you are doing is still very much valid within the overall framework of the experiment.

Others: in case there is any confusion, for the second half, i am asking for the (best fit in your mind) tALA for the structure I posted in post #31.

Arun

[arunk]

mohan - cool! rUpaka has you may noticed is a popular choice. (even ninja's catuSra aTa is a multiple of rUpaka)

Arun

[ninjathegreat]

Arun,

your structure - The one that pops to mind is Adi... On this note, other talams that may fit the framework:

- tisra jAthi matya tALam
- khanda jAthi jhampa tALam

Cheers
Ninja

[arunk]

ninja - can you evaluate the fit between Adi, tiSra maTya and khaNDa jhampa? Do they all fit the same way or are any of them a better/worse "natural" (according to you) fit? Pl. explain why if possible.

Arun

[arunk]

Well - it is time to throw the towel and officially conclude that the experiment was a bust! There are two possibilities:
1. Lack of interest for the second half - sort of who cares about what you came up with ?
2. The "problem to be solved" was not revealing itself in any form that people could not tackle it. Or it wasnt conclusive in any form.

I did not get any indication for #2 although i actually goofed up and revealed the structure in one line for all to see! So I have to assume # - but maybe it was a combination of both.

I must admit, I am not that surprised as I this thought it was always a possibility - maybe a tad disappointed. I should perhaps have not attempted anything wild, stuck to posting audio recordings .

Anyway, just to get closure - let me post my take.

The tala as ninja guessed is indeed 8 aksharas long and hence we have 3 possibilities Adi, tiSra maTya and khaNDa jhampa. From the structutre I posted, it was 1/2 akshara off samam.

For Adi, the structure I posted in post #31, would breakdown internally as follows:

Adi:

Code: Select all

,a ru gil vA        | ;  vE  | ,la vA ||
,a zhagi ya  ku     | ma  rA | ;   ;  ||

,Sa rava  Na  bha   | va nE  | ,vA ;  ||
,Sa nka   ran ma    | ga nE  | ,vA ;  ||

,pa zhani yin pazha | mE nI  | ,vA ;  ||
,pa zhamu dir sO    | lai yE | ,vA ;  ||

,ti rutta Ni maNi   | yE nI  | ,va ;  ||
,ti ruccen dUr sen  | dil AN | Da vA  ||

For tiSra maTya, it would breakdown internally as follows:

tiSra maTya:

Code: Select all

,a ru    gil   | vA    ;   | vE ,la vA ||
,a zhagi ya    | ku    ma  | rA  ;  ;  ||

,Sa rava Na    | bha   va  | nE ,vA ;  ||
,Sa nka  ran   | ma    ga  | nE ,vA ;  ||

,pa zhani yin  | pazha mE  | nI ,vA ;  ||
,pa zhamu dir  | sO    lai | yE ,vA ;  ||

,ti rutta  Ni  | maNi  yE  | nI ,va ;  ||
,ti ruccen dUr | sen   dil | AN Da vA  ||

In my mind, tiSra maTya is a better fit because of 2 things
i the words split better across angas (minor reason compared to ii below)
ii Almost all angas start either with a word or with a long syllable

I find (ii) giving me the impression that the structure has a tighter fit for tiSra maTya compared to Adi. I did have tiSra maTya in mind when i came up with this structure, thet too in a conscious manner but of course limited by my abilities. Atleast one person (vk) was able see something similar - so i may not be that crazy after all !

I see that khaNDa jhampa is actually not a bad fit because the first anudhrutam would line up, vE, rA, nE etc. But some long syllables (like first vA falls inside an anga, and also the last drutam doesnt line up always to a syllable - it is still an ok fit. IMO better than Adi but not as good as tiSra maTya.

However, if I find that if I start Adi 1.5 aksharas off, it lines up much better. But that is because the first dhrutam then is 2.5 beats away similar to tiSra matyA (where first dhrutam is 2.5 aksharas away for a 1/5 akshara eduppu as above). So Adi does fit better - but at 1.5 eduppu, which one should then think of as different from samam eduppu or 0.5 eduppu etc. etc.

I am thinking that the choice of rUpaka tALA by many *could* be because of the structure of the first word in the 2 lines in pallavi which may fit better to a 3 akshara anga at the beginning (i.e. tiSra maTya, and rUpaka cApu)?

Thanks for your time.

Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

One of the objectives we set out for this thread is to tease out the musical and aesthetic significance of angas. And your experiments were to bring them out.

Four possibilities are on the table.

1) Help with keeping track of where one is in the thala cycle
2) Musical Stress alignment with the angas
3) Lyrical and word alignment with the angas.
4) A artisistic and aesthetic combination of 2 and 3.

I think everyone agrees that item 1 is valid. It might not have been codified as such in a sloka in anicent books but it is an intutive, obvious and practical use of angas. Mridangamists may only have very limited use for it in this sense but it helps the performer and the audience.

Second item does not fit as a general rule though there is some correspondence of stresses and angas but it was not strong enough correspondence to definitively conclude that is the main significance of angas is to carry the musical stress and emphasis. Also, no one has quoted sources that says this is how it was originally envisioned.

Third item is what Arun has tried to get at and with some success in getting people to think along these lines. I think most of the responses used this as the guiding process and tried to line up the lyrics with the angas.

Fourth item is also what Arun has tried to do but without stating it as such. It looks to me, the unstated and sub-conscious process at work while lining up lyrics with angas is to achieve this. We really do not know how to precisly and scientifically define stress or emphasis in music but we all know when that occurs. Arun's own search and analysis of whether one thala fits better than the other is that artisitic activity which brings in musical aesthetics and (personal) taste.

Please shoot holes in all of the above but my take is item 4 best describes the role of angas in CM.

[ksrimech]

tiSra maTya:

Code: Select all

,a ru    gil   | vA    ;   | vE ,la vA ||
,a zhagi ya    | ku    ma  | rA  ;  ;  ||

,Sa rava Na    | bha   va  | nE ,vA ;  ||
,Sa nka  ran   | ma    ga  | nE ,vA ;  ||

,pa zhani yin  | pazha mE  | nI ,vA ;  ||
,pa zhamu dir  | sO    lai | yE ,vA ;  ||

,ti rutta  Ni  | maNi  yE  | nI ,va ;  ||
,ti ruccen dUr | sen   dil | AN Da vA  ||

tiSra maTyA looks exotic for this.

I choose karNATaka dEvagAndAri (if you want light classism) or tODI (if you want a heavy weight). nerval can be done at tiruttaNi maNiyE nI vA tiruccendUr sendilANDavA.

Cmlji, I request for lending your voice here.

[ninjathegreat]

arunk,

sorry, been busy with a faculty search in my dept... am totally swamped till monday... or I would have tried to set to the tAlam. I will try replying a bit more on monday.

We can and should continue with the experiment. I came across a very nice thiruppugazhesque poem in silappadikaram. Any one try to set it to a tALam or rAgam?

kudappAl uRaiyA kuvimimil ERRin
madakkaNIr sOrum varuvadOn RuNDu

uRinaRu veNNei urugA urugum
maRitheRith thAtA varuvathOn RuNDu

nAnmulai yAyam natungupu ninRirangum
mAnmaNi vIzhum varuvathOn RunDu

Cheers
Ninja