Tala in Music

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 31 Mar 2007, 02:04

no problem ninja. Here is my feeling based on gut. Nothing exotic -

Adi, Anandabhairavi (slow tempo):

;kuda ppAl uRai yA | ;kuvi mimil, | E RRin ||
;mada kkaNI,R sO rum,; | ;varu vad(u/on) | (on)RuNDu ; ||

;uRi naRu vEN; Nai | ;uru gA | uru gum; ||
;maRi ttErith thA da | ;varu vad(u/on) | (on)ruNDu ; ||

;nA, nmulai yA yam,; | ;natun gupu | nin.. drangum ||
;mAn maNi vI zhum,; | ;varu vad(u/on) | runDu ; ||

Note #1: (u/on) => it may be possible to split and sing as varuvadu + onRunDU. Actually not sure if that is better.
Note #2: "," and ";" generally implies previous syllable is to be stretched (with gamakas of Anandabhairavi)
Note #3: I was trying hard to align the above as-per aksharas and then I realized different people will see different fonts (based on browser) and so its a lost cause

Arun

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 31 Mar 2007, 04:38

Dear brother-member, arunk, While Adi consists of Angas pertaining to 4+2+2=8-units,
Trisra-mathya consists of 3+2+3=8-units and Khanda-jhampa consists of 5+1+2=8-units.
Among them, while the Adi is full of even units only, others are a mixture of evens and odds. This is the small difference to make all the difference. While the Adi is the better and natural fit the others are of un-natural fit. That is why this rhythmical form, in particular, has been named after â€œADIâ€

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Apr 2007, 10:11

arunk wrote:
vasanthakokilam wrote:Just to be sure, two thalas of the same avarthana length but different anga structure does produce a different feel ( contributed mostly by the locations of the Arudhi and kArvai ). I am just looking to expand on that.
How do you base the first statement on? Any examples (non-RTP) you have already looked into? In any case, here is a possible angle to look into:

If angas mattered to composers then some evidence may be available if we pick krithis in different talas whose total #of aksharas are the same and compared/contrasted them. So if we pick 8, we have 3 choices
1. The ubiquitous Adi i.e. catuSra tripuTa (4+2+2)
2. tiSra matya (3+2+3)
3. khaNDa jhampa (5+2+1).

tiSra matya
Syama Sastry has 2 krithis in triSra matya - one of which is a varnam. The krithis are nIvE gatiyani (varnam in kalyANi), and brhannAyaki (madyamAvati).

khaNDa jhampa
Syama Sastry has 1 krithi in khaNDa jhampa and it is sariyevaramma in bhairavi.
Dikshitar has 1 krithi in khaNDa jhampa - abhayAmbikAyAh in kEdAragauLa

The question "why tiSra matya/khaNDA jhampa instead of Adi" is still an intriguing one I think. The question is not whether a mridangist would approach it differently, but why would a composer choose it even if for "just the sake of it", and what are the implications.

Arun

Definitely I am not qualified to pass any judgement on this 'crux' of the matter you have brought to focus on the significance of the angas. Since you provided specific examples, I decided to listen to them with that primary objective in mind..

sariyevaramma - bhairavi - SS - Khanda Jampa ( side bar comment: What a grand song.. SS owns Bhairavi

)

I listened to two renditions: One by Shri. Nedunoori and other other by Shri G.S.Mani. They start the song at different eduppus. G.S. Mani starts it on the beat whereas Nedunoori starts it in the middle of a beat. This is a different characterization than whether the eduppu is before the samam or after the samam, a significant point in this analysis as it turns out.

This also brings in your other question of arudhi-like features in non-RTP songs. This is one of those songs with such a feature ( an 'emphasis ) which anchors the song at 'ma' of 'evaramma'. Any thala consideration has to abide by this.

Adi:
If I was not thinking seriously of thala fitting among these three thalas of the same count, I would have been content to label it as '2 kaLai Aadi' - atItagraha (eduppu before samam) for both renditions. For Aadi, G.S. mani's rendition would start at the 8th beat on the beat. Nedunoori Garu's eduppu would come under 8.5+ ( or -.5 ) in this 2 kaLai. I know this is confusing but if you listen to it, the differences in the two eduppus are quite obvious.

khanda jampa

GSM's eduppu is on the beat, for Khanda Jampa it would be a sama eduppu. Nedunoori garu's eduppu would be 1/2 ( in 2 Kalai, with two taps major beat, it is after the first tap ).

thisra matya

Interestingly not much changes from khanda jampa except the arudhi like stress moves to the beginning of the second Laghu. Eduppu's are same as Khanda Jampa.

I guess it is anybody's guess as to why SS notated his song as Khanda Jampa as the thalam instead of Adi or Thisra Matya but I can see a possible case against Aadi for this structure, especially for GSM's eduppu. Why start a song on the beat and consider it as atItagraha on the 8th beat. It is just added complexity of description without too much gain in musical aesthetics.

In any case, I can't find an aesthetic case against applying thisra matya to this structure. But it is not in the job description of composers to analyze and specify which all thalas might fit the song, I guess they pick one which in their mind is the best fit for the structure they have in mind. In that sense it is a fair game to speculate and analyze if the specified thala fits the structure or not... but not why only this and why not the other...

abhayAmbikAyAh - Kedara Gowla - MD

This does not add up to khanda jampa. It may be Misra jampa. So I will leave it out of consideration for this purpose.

Comments and thoughts are welcome!!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Apr 2007, 10:25

sbala wrote:VK,
It's quite a long thread and I'll go through it again. But it's much easier to change the duration of the outer beat and call it a change in nadai (like changing ur sruthi in the middle of a song to sing something difficult). The challenge is to make the change within the same time of the outer beat.

Just visiting this thread today and I missed your post. I just want to make a comment that the two ways of looking at naDai serve different purposes from the musical aesthetics. Both are important. In post #11, 3 a), it is in the league of kAlam where as 3 b) is in the league of kaLai.

I always get mixed up between the terms Speed and Tempo. Is kAlam same as speed and kaLai same as tempo? If that is indeed the case, 2 kaLai is a special case of 3 b) and hence we can call 3 b) referring to Tempo aesthetics and 3 a) referring to speed aesthetics.

Then there was a question about can one change Tempo/3 b Nadai in the middle of a song. We see musicians switching from 2 kaLai to 1 kaLai ( much to my bewilderment in thala keeping initially ) in RTP. Since kaLai is just a special case of naDai change of the 3 b) type, why would change of naDai of that type in the middle of a song be an issue? Just curious.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 09 Apr 2007, 20:34

vasanthakokilam[b wrote:sariyevaramma - bhairavi - SS - Khanda Jampa[/b] ( side bar comment: What a grand song.. SS owns Bhairavi )

I listened to two renditions: One by Shri. Nedunoori and other other by Shri G.S.Mani.

Can you post links to these if available on net, or upload renditions if possible please?

They start the song at different eduppus. G.S. Mani starts it on the beat whereas Nedunoori starts it in the middle of a beat. This is a different characterization than whether the eduppu is before the samam or after the samam, a significant point in this analysis as it turns out.

Yes I agree that eduppu indeed seems important in influencing alignment with angas if that is in the mind of the composer and the singer. I made a similar point w.r.t tisra matya vs. Adi earlier in the experiment earlier, where with the version I came up with, Adi with 1.5 eduppu would make it similar if not identical to 0.5 maTya.

The case here you make for Adi in relation to khanda jhampa is exactly the same. In khanda jhampa, the first emphasis beat which is that of the anu-dhrutam is 5 aksharas away from samam. Similarly the first emphasis beat (of the first dhrutam) in Adi is 5 aksharas from the second-half of the last dhrutam of the earlier cycle in Adi i.e. with atIta eduppu.

Similarly, a krithi like brOva bhAramA ragurAmA which starts 1.5 aksharas after samam in Adi (at least in the version I know), seems to line up well with tiSra maTya if taken instead at 0.5 aksharas after samam. The math/reasoning is the same - with Adi at 1.5 eduppu, the first beat be 2.5 aksharas. In tisra matya if you take at 0.5, the first beat is the same 2.5 aksharas away. However, not everything line the same way. Again, in the version I learned, for example, the mA of raghurAmA falls at samam on the next cycle (perhaps in tandem with the emphasis of the first mA (bhAramA) at the first dhrutam - although that could be overanalysis). With tisra matya, 0.5 eduppu, that mA of raghurAma falls in the middle of the second laghu and in between two aksharas. There are 2 sangatis on that mA, and the second one in particular is sort of like a "take-off" sangati which (IMO) seems better off if taken-off from an emphasis beat rather than in the middle of an akshara in the middle of a laghu. So even with 0.5 eduppu tisra matya seems not as good for that particular version - if one were to apply these constraints.

So, how do the renditions of sariyevaramma match up with Adi vs. khanda jhampa vs. tisra matya, for anupallavi and charanam and also for different sangatis?

But I should say that this approach can be self-prophetic. I mean, we assume that angas need to be emphasized and so maybe we pay attention more only to cases where emphasis is there?

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Apr 2007, 08:09

Arun:

I did not sense anything regarding word alignment to angas that would be the deciding factor (other than the eduppu and arudhi like emphasis we discussed ).

One question for everyone: In RTP, are there some accepted rules as to where the arudhi should fall for the 7 thala types?

If the same also applies to krithis with arudhi-like emphasis ( let us assume so ), then we may be able to rule out thisra matya on those grounds if the arudi is supposed to fall on the drutham for matya thalam and not on the second laghu.

>Can you post links to these if available on net, or upload renditions if possible please?

>So, how do the renditions of sariyevaramma match up with Adi vs. khanda jhampa vs. tisra matya, for anupallavi and charanam and also for different sangatis?

Here are the two renditions of Sari Evaramma with different eduppus.

Sari Evaramma, bhairavi, khanda jampa thala

http://www.sendspace.com/file/r0lprs -- Sri. G.S. Mani Iyer

http://www.sendspace.com/file/nt0eo0 -- Sri. Nedunoori Krishnamoorthy

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Apr 2007, 08:38

Similarly, a krithi like brOva bhAramA ragurAmA which starts 1.5 aksharas after samam in Adi (at least in the version I know), seems to line up well with tiSra maTya if taken instead at 0.5 aksharas after samam

If you are willing to set aside the notated eduppus and tradition for the sake of experimentation, try this for 5 or 6 different dEsAdi thala songs ( 1.5 aksharas after samam ). Keep the thala as if the eduppu is at 1.5, 3.5, 5.5 and 7.5. It will work nicely without much discomfort. Atleast that is how it feels to me. Of course, one can say that there is a mid-point emphasis which locks-in the eduppu at 1.5 but for a lot of these songs there is more than one emphasis point which can possibly be aligned with that mid-point.

These songs, at the core of their rhythmic structure, is what can be termed a One-Two pattern, an alternating strong emphasis and a weak emphasis. For most of these songs, the words also align that way on odd and even beat boundaries in an uniform way. And you lay that structure over a 8 beat cycle, it really looks like a '4 groups of 2' substructure. That is why moving the eduppu around as specified above does not really seem to change things much ( though people will definitely frown on that

). And this one-two pattern is a catchy one and Thyagaraja was a master at employing this pattern in a very tasteful fashion to craft many of his popular short songs which are immediately accessible and enjoyable by new-comers to CM.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Apr 2007, 00:05

vasanthakokilam wrote:If you are willing to set aside the notated eduppus and tradition for the sake of experimentation, try this for 5 or 6 different dEsAdi thala songs ( 1.5 aksharas after samam ). Keep the thala as if the eduppu is at 1.5, 3.5, 5.5 and 7.5. It will work nicely without much discomfort. Atleast that is how it feels to me. Of course, one can say that there is a mid-point emphasis which locks-in the eduppu at 1.5 but for a lot of these songs there is more than one emphasis point which can possibly be aligned with that mid-point.

Of course - theoreticallly and even aestheticallly one can vary the eduppu and deliver the same version with the same effect. I suspect different people will "evaluate" the effectiveness of the different eduppus differently. Hence for me, the question is given an eduppu and internal tala structure, does one sub-consiously choose some internal patterns which seem easier/natural . If one starts afresh after the eduppu shift and tries "retuning" song, would he think other patterns now feel like a better fit? Of course that gets subjective - but then does it matter? I dont think there are universal laws here. If a person takes that arugil vA vElavA (or any other) example, and pick Adi vs. tiSra maTya say both at same eduppu, would he arrive at different stretch points internally for each line? If he does, then for that person internal structure did mean something - conscious or not. Is that universally applicable to every one the same way? I dont think so.

BTW, when I meant word alignment, I really meant alignment of syllables - in particular the elongated ones.

Also, i remembered brOva bhArama wrong! For the second "take off" sangati on mA, it is actually taken before the beat - isnt that ironic

?

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Apr 2007, 00:13

Of course - theoreticallly and even aestheticallly one can vary the eduppu and deliver the same version with the same effect.

Just to be sure, what I meant in my experiment is, listen to the same dEsAdi tala song but change the eduppu.5s from 1.5 to 3.5, 5.5 and 7.5 as you keep the thala. May be that is how you also understood it but wanted to make sure.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Apr 2007, 00:18

yes i did get that. But i suspect things may be better Adi than with tiSra maTya or khaNDa jhampa. In Adi shifting eduppu by 2 beats works better because you only have angas with even number of aksharas.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Apr 2007, 01:06

Right. I also would not generalize that for all Adi tala songs. It works for me for some of the dEsAdi thala songs of Thyagaraja because of the stress structure. If I want to stick my neck out and risk some brickbats

, those songs are essentially a 2 beat tala avartha with 4 such 2 beat groups for sahitya avartha.

Even if the above statement is insane and presumptuous, my defense would be similar to what you wrote. After all these discussions, there does not seem to be a universal set of grammar, semantics and pragmatics about the use of angas. Lack of those stipulations provides the crack in the door for an upstart like me to make such statements based on what it feels like to me.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 11 Apr 2007, 07:58

vasanthakokilam wrote:VK,
Just visiting this thread today and I missed your post. I just want to make a comment that the two ways of looking at naDai serve different purposes from the musical aesthetics. Both are important. In post #11, 3 a), it is in the league of kAlam where as 3 b) is in the league of kaLai.

Based on all the posts, aesthetics is slowly becoming an excuse for allowing anything

Let's say we allow this. It is the reponsibility of the performer to show what is constant in the song. Those are the shruti and the duration of an avarthanam. Ã

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Apr 2007, 11:20

sbala: It is not upto me to allow this or not

It is already practised to varying degrees. The switch from 2 kaLai to 1 kaLai is done in RTPs. In that case, Mridangists do not even need to know or do anything much differently since they are focussed on the sub-beats anyway.

While discussing this topic in the other thread a while back, the MLV's excellent rendition of Chandrachuda - ragamalika came up. I checked the link there and it seems to have expired. Here is an excerpt from that song again which shows the nadai change of this type:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/pwa7mr

The switch from Chathusra to Khanda has the net effect of a slow down ( in addition to the distinct khanda nadai feel ). The Chathusra to Khanda switch of the other type ( 3a) would produce a speeding up effect.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 11 Apr 2007, 11:49

I don't know if it's practised or not but I still believe that the artist should display the invariant in the songs. By now, we know the artists take certain liberties and make mistakes as well like not sticking to shruti. That doesn't mean they are right. It also doesn't mean they should stop performing:-)

Why do they switch from 2 kalai to 1-kalai in RTPs? What are they trying to accomplish by switching? What is the invariant when they make the switch? All I'm asking is show me the invariant, not the change! Btw, are you referring to Pratiloma when you say they switch kalais during the RTP?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Apr 2007, 20:21

sbala: I don't understand why you keep bringing in sruthi lapses and occasional unintended mistakes of musicians when we are discussing this. Anyway, I have to bail out here since it is already way above my pay grade

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 11 Apr 2007, 21:49

VK,
I'm not saying anything against musicians. I have lot of respect for them and what they have to go through to become perfomers. My interests are mostly on the theoritical side and that's why I don't want to strictly go by examples of someone who did something in a concert. All I'm saying is as long as the invariant is displayed in some form, I don't have an issue. Sruthi and the duration of an avarthanam are the general invariants. Now, if you are saying you can change the duration of an avartanam by keeping the duration of the subeats constant and changing the number of subbeats per kriya, how would you show that? You cannot just put adi thalam and just show me only the outer beat in both cases. It would be easier for me to understand if the perfromer does a fast trisra ekam (trisra nadai) and a fast chaturasra ekam (chaturasra nadai) ie showing the actual subunits rather than just showing the outer beat.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Apr 2007, 23:51

Nadia is nadai: it is the number of subdivisions of a beat. The beat remains constant.

Any other interpretation is a mistake. Or an experiment. Or whatever it is it is not according to tala theory.

(ok, ok.... but we all have to be dogmatic about something

)

That is not to say that a performer may never perform outside the theory!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Apr 2007, 02:58

Nick: As I wrote before to sbala's post, this is all way over my head in terms of providing theoretically correct answer. But would you consider a switch from 2 kaLai to 1 kaLai in RTP according to theory?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 13 Apr 2007, 03:09

nick H wrote:Nadia is nadai: it is the number of subdivisions of a beat. The beat remains constant.

Any other interpretation is a mistake. Or an experiment. Or whatever it is it is not according to tala theory.!

Ok. Taking a leaf from your book in being dogmatic, I say it is a mistake to say the beat is constant while subunit length changes. That is my understanding. If this were not the case, it is meanigless to have 35x5 variations of the suLAdi tALas. I quoted this example before- "Sankari Sankuru" of SyAmA SAStri in sAvEri earlier in another threead. It is rendered in caturaSra tripuTa in triSra nADe and also in rUpaka. (4 Avartas of rUpaka to 1 Avarta o the other tALa). How would this be possible if what you say were to be right? Of course, I know practice does not always follow theory and thats why we have subunit length variations in a constant beat for the sake of effect.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 13 Apr 2007, 04:44

Brother-member, vasanthakokilam, dear, Traditions tend to change according to the physical, mental and financial capacity of its followers. In the same manner, in the olden days, Vidwans were used to sing only 4 kalai or 8 kalai Pallavis with hours of elaborate Ragalapana, Niraval and heavy mathematical Kalpana svaras etc., etc. Nowadays, according to the mind set of the people all these things have been minimized. For example, nowadays, Shri M.S.Gopalakrishnan is the only person who has all along and very strictly been following the tradition of playing both the Purvanga and Uttaranga of any Varna in two speeds even without any exception. Now, if I question how many others are following the same, every other musician bombards at me to prove that it is the tradition. And, also there are some people who always want to look conspicuous and do novel things even going out of the established values of our tradition. Of course, it is everybodyâ€™s birth-right to do whatever and in whichever manner he/she likes. And, at the same time, this can also be permitted with great heart unless it deteriorates the standards. amsharma.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 13 Apr 2007, 08:32

drshrikaanth wrote:If this were not the case, it is meanigless to have 35x5 variations of the suLAdi tALas.

I think you are saying it's meaningless because the way of putting thalam never changes for all the gatis. I thought about this but unless you are a metronome it is still a challenge to do keep the duration of the outer beat same when the gati changes. Beginners like me do it the other way which is change the outer beat to suit whatever I sing and I felt I was cheating. How do you change the nadai for the Khamas geetham? Somehow, this definition of nadai seems more convincing to me. For the same nadai, we switch kalams (first, second and 3rd speed etc) which enables you to pack more swarams within the same outer beat. So, chaturasra nadai 3rd speed is the same as trisra nadai 4th speed (12 syllables per outer beat).. I don't know if this was VK's question with regards to the difference between nadai and Kalam!

I don't understand the Saveri Krithi example. Adi - trisra nadai is 24 syllables in first speed..Rupakam(assuming the 6 count version) in 4 cycles becomes 24 outer beats with 1 syllable per beat. So where is the inconsistency? In this case, the beat of a rupaka thalam could have the same duration as the sub-beat of the adi trisra nadai version (not the adi chaturasra nadai version). There is nothing wrong in this and it doesn't seem to invalidate the definition of nadai.

I don't know if I'm making sense but this is a very interesting discussion.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 15 Apr 2007, 15:22

vasanthakokilam wrote:Nick: As I wrote before to sbala's post, this is all way over my head in terms of providing theoretically correct answer. But would you consider a switch from 2 kaLai to 1 kaLai in RTP according to theory?

I know there's something called Pratiloma where the duration of the avarthanam is allowed to change but the pallavi line is kept constant. So, there is still an invariant that is maintained. Thinking about this, there are 2 aspects of maintaining time

1. The duration taken by the kriyas
2. The duration taken by the musical event.

In most cases, the Kriyas denote the time and many multiples of event can happen in the same time. In the case of Pratiloma, the musical event marks the time and the multiple cycles of kriyas can occur for the same musical event. Personally, I don't know why the second is neccessary for a musician. Maybe, just to show off his/her laya wizardry.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 15 Apr 2007, 15:25

nick H wrote:Nadia is nadai: it is the number of subdivisions of a beat. The beat remains constant.

Nick,
I think the standard term (if there is such a thing

) for this is gati. Nadai is a little bit more subtle, though most people seem to think both Nadai and Gati are same. Do percussionists use these terms interchangeably?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Apr 2007, 20:22

There is indeed such a thing... but my brain, my brain, ouch, my brain. Yes, I think you are right, it is the same thing

There i gaati too --- so that's two brain cell failures for me in one post.

Thing is, when people refer to tisra nadai or chatusra nadai (probably the two most common, then what I understand them to be speaking of is the number of subdivisions of the beat, the beat remaining of a fixed time duration.

It only matters when the change is made inside the song. So the point of having 25 *5 talams is that they are completely different talams!

In aniloma and pratiloma, the duration of the avartanam is changed --- but by a fixed fraction/multiple.

So if the talam is kept fixed, the song is sung at first, second, third speed. If the song is kept fixed the talam is changed to first speed, second speed etc.

In this, if one is unable to see the talam, I think it would be possible to put one's own talam and keep it constant throughout --- they are changes of presentation only.

To use your term the invariant --- it is like putting the invariant on the other side of the scales; the result is still the same.

And I agree: I can't really see the point either --- but it is an exercise in rhythmic mastery.

chaturasra nadai 3rd speed is the same as trisra nadai 4th speed (12 syllables per outer beat)

Something wrong here....

ta ka di mi Chatusra Nadai 1st speed One akshara 4 madra (syllables)

ta ka di mi ta ka ju no Chatusra Nadai 2st speed One akshara (8 syllables)

ta ka di mi ta ka ju no ta ka di mi ta ka ju no Chatusra Nadai 3rd speed One akshara (16 syllables)

4th speed tisra would be (3, 6, 12, 24) 24 syllables.

Mmmm... actually, that tisra should probably start at six eg, an adi talam pallavi would count per beat:

1st speed 2
2nd speed 4
Tisra 6
3rd speed 8
Tisra 2nd 12

Whoa.... I'm beginning to get that 'am I right?, or hopelessly confused feeling'!

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 15 Apr 2007, 20:56

chaturasra nadai 3rd speed is the same as trisra nadai 4th speed (12 syllables per outer beat)Something wrong here....

yes, I knew it was a mistake but was too lazy to correct it. I was trying to illustrate the difference between nadai and kalam

Chaturasra gati

1st kalam = 1 sub beat
2nd kalam=2 subbeats
3rd kalam= 4 subbeats
4th kalam=8 subbeats

Trisra gati
1st kalam=3 subbeats
2nd kalam=6 subbeats
3rd kalam = 12 subbeats
4th kalam= 24 subbeats

Also, the colloquial use of nadai and gati seem to be the same.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 15 Apr 2007, 21:07

nick H wrote:So the point of having 35 *5 talams is that they are completely different talams!

Yes, I agree. The number of syllables and time taken to complete the avarthana together define the tala (apart from the other elements we are discussing in another thread). Just because the time remains the same, we cannot say two thalas are same.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Apr 2007, 23:07

sbala, it is hard for me to tell if those rules on the invariance and their relative significance/nonsignificance are yours or you are quoting from texts, current and old. If you are making references to books and texts, please put a note to that effect. ( Just an editorial point ).

With reference to change of kaLai in RTP. refer to this thread starting at post 8.

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=39181#p39181

You have correctly portrayed the general relationship between kAlam and naDai of the 3a variety ( referring back to my old posts for these numberings 3a and 3b ). Along the same lines, the naDai of the 3b variety is a generalization of kaLai. ( I made that point before, which I am not sure if you made a note of )

As a specific illustration, in the grand kAmbhoji RTP by maNakkAl rangarAjan posted at his thread in the vidwan section, ( here is a direct sangeethapriay link )

http://www.sangeethapriya.org/~sripathy ... ration.mp3

his RTP is structured in kanda Nadai and then he does amazing kAlam variations on that kanda nadai framework.

For me, both varietis of naDai have musical value, effect and aesthetics. Which variety gets what label is a separate question.

Nick wrote
It only matters when the change is made inside the song. So the point of having 35 *5 talams is that they are completely different talams!

Nick, the concept and teminilogy has to be consistent. It is not just for theoretical purposes. The effects of the two are opposite of each other. The 3a variety is there to increase the speed and the 3b variety is there to decrease the tempo.

And, you will have to reconcile with what DRS said about the sAveri krithi and the fact that in the formulation of the 175 thala scheme, that naDai refers to a change in avarthanam length.

Having said that, we will have to accept that most people in practise refer to the kAlam ( speed ) changes, say in kalpanaswarams and in the thani ( the 3a variety ), as a naDai change. No one can change the world to make everyone speak a consistent terminology, so we have to interpret it based on the context, whether they speak of the 3a variety or 3b variety. Both are integral part of the CM practise today.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Apr 2007, 09:16

Here is one confusion between us.... I would not call them sub-beats.

1-kalai adi talam = 8 beats

2-kalai adi tala = 16 beats. (not eight beats of two sub-beats each)

and so on.

What I would call the 'sub-beat' or 'pulse level' is the number of matras, which I have been equating with your use of the word 'syllables.

1-kalai adi talam = 8 beats, 32 pulses

1-kalai adi talam tisra nadai = 8 beats, 48 pulses*

1-kalai adi talam second speed = 8 beats, 64 pulses

and so on...

*I think tisra 'first speed' is generaly taken as 6 pulses, not three, which would be a 'slowing down'

How does this strike you?

(Woops... there have been several other posts in between... Have to see when I come home later...)

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 16 Apr 2007, 09:44

VK,
The invariants are purely my model and whatever I have read so far doesn't invalidate the model. How do you conclude that the 175 tala scheme is based on change in avarthanam length? Is it based on some texts or your interpretation? The Saveri Kriti example doen't make sense, atleast to me and I have given the reason why. It doesn't seem to invalidate the nadai definition. Both the arguments that have been pointed out in favour of the change in avartanam length- Need for 175 thalas or the Saveri Kriti, doesn't invalidate the definition of nadai.

I have myself wondered about the 175 thalas just like DRS did but I came to the same conclusion as Nick.

Marking the syllables instead of time cannot lead to change in speed of the song. It would only change the duration of the avarthanam. You are still singing at the same speed. Using physics definition of speed=Distance/time. Here, distance is the length of the song covered. Only in the gathi definition of nick, the speed changes as the distance changes and time remains the same. In the 3b definition, you are still doing the same speed (same distance covered in same time.) which is exactly what Pratiloma is and that is why I questioned its musical significance. To me, this is an illusion as opposed to the gathi change definition given by Nick

I also understood what you are saying when you mean the nadai of 3b variety is a generalization of kalai change. I don't completely agree but it all depends on how you render the kalai change. But, I see your point there.

But, 3b is just an illusion. The speed of the song doesn't change at all as is made clear in Pratiloma. You say "tempo" is changing. Tempo of what? The song? What do you mean by tempo? I don't think anything changes in the song. It's only the speed of the physical beats that change. But, even 3b doesn't invalidate my model as the speed of the song still remains the same.

Again, I'm only trying to learn and not imposing my views here. Please tell me if my logic is incorrect anywhere.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 16 Apr 2007, 09:50

nick H wrote:*I think tisra 'first speed' is generaly taken as 6 pulses, not three, which would be a 'slowing down'

Is it so? Then what is the speed of 3 subbeats or syllables?

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 16 Apr 2007, 10:27

vasanthakokilam wrote:the 3b variety is there to decrease the tempo.

Yes, if tempo is defined as a ratio of the the length of the song covered to time as measured by physical beats. It finally boils down to frame of reference. You have kept your frame of reference as the physical beats always and you are evaluating the song from there. So you see the song moving slower by moving the beats faster.

My frame of reference is the environment I live in. So my time is always same (the one my watch says) and I don't see the song change in 3b.

Looks like you are closer to the music than I'm

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Apr 2007, 10:44

sbala, thanks for clarifying tha the invariance concept is your model. BTW, I did not mean to impose that you provide references for everything you write

, reasons for asking are: if it is from a text, I can read up on that and second, I wanted to tread any concept carefully if it is from a classic text

You are correct about my definition of tempo...as in.. 2 kaLai song is executed slower than a 1 kaLai song ( and you can pack in more swaras to give the illusion of speed with either one of them

)

If you can listen to the kamboji RTP I referred above, see how you will describe that in terms of your model and terminology. Since it is a demo, Shri. Rangarajan describes what he does. The thala is Thisra Jampa, Kanda Nadai.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Apr 2007, 11:18

sbala wrote:
nick H wrote:So the point of having 35 *5 talams is that they are completely different talams!
Yes, I agree. The number of syllables and time taken to complete the avarthana together define the tala (apart from the other elements we are discussing in another thread). Just because the time remains the same, we cannot say two thalas are same.

Let us reflect on this a bit. This addresses the invariant you are referring to, but in the opposite way. If this is true, then you will have to say that during kalpanaswaram when thisram, kandam and misram are employed, the thalam changes. Extending that to an extreme, you will have to also admit that any time you pack in more swarams into a beat, the thala changes. I don't think that would be consistent with the generally accepted notion of a thala.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 16 Apr 2007, 11:29

Vk,
I will listen and refine my model if the need arises.

But, there is really no difference between 3a and 3b in your model. Both are same. You always measure Speed of song relative to speed of thalam. In your case, since you are sitting on the hands of the artist, the speed of thalam for you relative to the thalam never changed as you are travelling with the hands. So, thats the invariant in your case and you see a speed change of the song in both 3a and 3b. So, there is no difference from your perspective

In my case, the invariant is the time as measured by my watch. So, speed of song never changed for me when you did 3b and that's why I found it strange.

Ofcourse, this is no longer my model..borrowed it from a gentleman called Einstein

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 16 Apr 2007, 11:55

vasanthakokilam wrote:Extending that to an extreme, you will have to also admit that any time you pack in more swarams into a beat, the thala changes. I don't think that would be consistent with the generally accepted notion of a thala.

thalam has to include the gathi as one of its element - chaturasra-gathi adi thalam or trisra gathi adi thalam. It should also include Kaalam. So, in an ideal world, we should not say a song is just in Adi thalam. We should say Adi, Chaturasra gathi 1st Kalam. As per this definition of thalam, anytime you change any of the variables, you are moving to a different thalam.

However, there is nothing wrong with the generally accepted notion as well. The reason why we just say a kriti is Adi is because that is the only thing that remains constant during the song. So, within the Adi talam, I can move to any of these other sub-categories that these gathi changes gives. I'm still sticking to the theme of Adi thalam. However, if I had said I'm going to sing in chaturasra gathi Adi thalam 1st kalam, then I can't change in the middle.

So, it's all about establishing the invariants before the song! What that invariant is really doesn't matter

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 Apr 2007, 15:05

sbala wrote:But, 3b is just an illusion. The speed of the song doesn't change at all as is made clear in Pratiloma. You say "tempo" is changing. Tempo of what? The song? What do you mean by tempo? I don't think anything changes in the song. It's only the speed of the physical beats that change. But, even 3b doesn't invalidate my model as the speed of the song still remains the same.

Now why do you say the speed changes when you do anulOma? The tALa Avarta/beat duration does not change at all. Why should that alone be called speed change while keeping sAhitya constant and doublibg or halving the speed of tALa(pratilOma) is not speed change. We have 2 variables(not varying at the same time) here which have a relationship. That is what defines the speed. One remains constant while the other changes. Regardless of which is varied, the speed does change.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 Apr 2007, 15:11

sbala wrote:Both the arguments that have been pointed out in favour of the change in avartanam length- Need for 175 thalas or the Saveri Kriti, doesn't invalidate the definition of nadai.

Maybe there are 2 parallel discussions going on here. See the point to note in the sAvEri kRti is that the number of "Outer beats"(Not subunits) should be the same if what you and Nick were saying were to be correct. In triSra naDe Adi we manage it in 8 beats while in rUpaka, the number of beats is 12. That invalidates the constancy of the duration of the outer beat.

With regards to 35x5 varieties, I repeat, it is pointless to talk of these varities if the outer beat length were to be taken as constant. If you still maintain they are the same, I would like you to demonstrate (at least try and tell us your experience) to sing any one alankAra and do a nade variation according to "Your understanding" without changing the length of the outer beat.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 16 Apr 2007, 15:28

drshrikaanth wrote:Why should that alone be called speed change while keeping sAhitya constant and doublibg or halving the speed of tALa(pratilOma) is not speed change. We have 2 variables(not varying at the same time) here which have a relationship. That is what defines the speed. One remains constant while the other changes. Regardless of which is varied, the speed does change.

Ultimately, I look only at the effect on the song. Speed of the song changes only relative to the thala in case of 3b. If I don't see you putting the talam when I'm hearing the song over an audio system, I won't find any difference when you do the 3b change.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 Apr 2007, 15:33

Yes- but music is as much a visual art (So our treatises treat it). And youcannot ignore or simply wish away the tALa just because it is inconvenient to your theory/understanding.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 16 Apr 2007, 15:38

drshrikaanth wrote:With regards to 35x5 varieties, I repeat, it is pointless to talk of these varities if the outer beat length were to be taken as constant. If you still maintain they are the same, I would like you to demonstrate (at least try and tell us your experience) to sing any one alankAra and do a nade variation according to "Your understanding" without changing the length of the outer beat.

If you tell me what you are looking for in the demo, then I can try to do something.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 16 Apr 2007, 15:41

drshrikaanth wrote:Yes- but music is as mucha visual art (So our treatises treat it). And youcannot ignore or simply wish away the tALa just because it is inconvenient to your theory/understanding.

Btw, I'm not disputing 3b now. I was just trying to form the model that will explain both and I think I have done that in one of my previous posts.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 Apr 2007, 15:42

Ok. I would like you to sing the triSra tripuTa(for instance, you are free to choose any other among the 7) alankAra in triSra naDe without changing the length of the outer beat or Avarta.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 16 Apr 2007, 15:59

drshrikaanth wrote:See the point to note in the sAvEri kRti is that the number of "Outer beats"(Not subunits) should be the same if what you and Nick were saying were to be correct. In triSra naDe Adi we manage it in 8 beats while in rUpaka, the number of beats is 12. That invalidates the constancy of the duration of the outer beat.

Why should the number of outer beats be the same as per our definition? You said you are changing from Adi 8 beats triSra to rupakam 12 beats (4 avarthas). These 12 beats should take the same time as the 8 beats of triSra gati Adi thalam. Isn't that right or am I missing something?

Let x be the duration of each outer beat of adi thalam. Total time taken =8x.

Let y be the duration of a beat of rupaka thalam. y=8x/12=2/3rd x.

The constancy of the duration of the outer beat is only when I'm changing gathis within the same adi talam, not across thalams.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 16 Apr 2007, 16:09

drshrikaanth wrote:Ok. I would like you to sing the triSra tripuTa(for instance, you are free to choose any other among the 7) alankAra in triSra naDe without changing the length of the outer beat or Avarta.

I still don't know if this is a trick question.

Let us take eka thalam in chatusra gathi

s r g m|
r g m p|
g m p d|
m p d n|
p d n S|

In trisra gathi, it will be

s r g|
m r g|
m p g|
m p d|
m p d|
n p d|
n S S|

and so on

What is the problem in this?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 Apr 2007, 16:20

sbala wrote:Why should the number of outer beats be the same as per our definition? You said you are changing from Adi 8 beats triSra to rupakam 12 beats (4 avarthas). These 12 beats should take the same time as the 8 beats of triSra gati Adi thalam. Isn't that right or am I missing something?.

Now we are talking. Bala- I have no intention or need to trick anyone. You agreed with Nick that the subunit duration changes but not the duration of the outer beat. That is why I asked you to demonstrate "Within" the triSra tripuTa tALa alankAra, a change in the naDe without changing the length of the outer beat. Your subsequesnt post goes against(So it seems to me) what you said earlier. And is exactly concurrent with what I have been saying all along. i.e, the subunit does not change in duration but only the outer beat when we change naDes. The alternate mathod used in tanis etc where the subunit is varied in length keeping the outer beat constant is not real nade change but an illusion for effect.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 16 Apr 2007, 16:30

No DRS. I don't understand how you concluded my posts went against what Nick is saying. All we are saying was within the same thalam, the outer beat duration remains the same when you change gathi. How do my posts refute that?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 Apr 2007, 16:32

Lest leave it for now Bala. We are talking at crosspurposes

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 16 Apr 2007, 16:53

Smilies don't help and calling something not real or an effect without proper backing doesn't help either!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 Apr 2007, 16:55

sbala wrote:Smilies don't help

I have removed it as thats the way you prefer it.

and calling something not real or an effect without proper backing doesn't help either!

Exactly my point!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Apr 2007, 21:49

bala, others

w.r.t to Sankari Sankaru, if it is put with Adi tiSra gati, the internal structure would be as follows (note: i dont really know this song and so this is just my idea of how the song goes!)

Code: Select all

Sa n ka | ri Sa n | ku ru ca | n dra mu || khi , , | , a khi || lA N DE | S wa ri

In catusra gati rUpaka (cApu style), it would be

Code: Select all

Sa n ka ri | Sa n ka ru | ca n dra mu || ki , , , | a ki lA N | De S wa ri

So the outer beats are not of the same "duration" if one were to compare a singer who sings both in exactly the same way, same tempo i.e. basically such that entire line above takes the exact same duration in both rende. The outer beat duration for catusra would take longer since fewer outer beats for the line duration.

I may be wrong but this is the point Drs is making. If one were to compare such an identical rendering of the two, the inner beat duration is exactly the same, the outer beat duration changes because the gati has changed. This is like case 3b.

If I may point out, i think mixing issues and dynamics of gati switches *within* a rendition, with isssues/dynamics of separate songs/renditions in different gatis can only lead to confusion - since there are different aspects of gati which are applicable to each. Within a rendition, if you switch gati, that gives a perceptible speed/tempo change - just like switching kalam. Besides that, IMO, it also does change the gait of the rendition (i would like to once again point at the comparison of the different gatis to the different gaits of a horse). However, I should also note that perception of gait change is perhaps more obvious only if you have a frame of reference - i.e. as in a switch within a song, and may be more only in kalpana swaras or more generally, when the internal grouping is taken advantage of ( s r g m | p d n s, followed by s r g | m p d | n s etc. For example, if you render Sankaru Sankari pallavi in tiSra gati Adi, and anu-pallavi in catuSra gati rUpaka, a person not seeing the rendition isnt going perceive any gait change unless perhaps if the mridangist does sarvalagu to ta ki Ta ta ki Ta for tiSra and ta ka di mi ta ka ju Nu, where one of the sub-beats (and thus every third/fourth sub-beat) is always empashized. But you perform with no accompaniment, put tALam silently, and switch from tiSra Adi to catuSra rUpaka - there is no gait change.

On a related but separate topic, I always find this song to be not obviously tiSra gati to me (and so my limitation). To me, it also has a legimitate catusra gati feel perhaps because the words Sankari and Sankari and similar, rhythmic AND each take 4 sub-units? The syllables break pretty well in catusra gati as seen above. This to me is sort of in contrast to the khaNDa gati part in khamAs swarajati to where i think almost all (and beginners that too) can naturally keep putting the same talam (i.e. outer beat the same), while going to that part in khaNDa gati. It could be because many of the syllables in that line are grouped as units of 5.

Arun