Query- yArO or ArO?

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 16 May 2007, 04:52

Arunachala Kavi's Bhairavi krithi should it be:

1. yArO ivar yArO
2. ArO ivar yArO
3. yArO ivar ArO
or
4. ArO ivar ArO

?

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 16 May 2007, 04:55

In the Saraswathi Mahal publication that I have the words are:
ArO ivar yrO....
but musicians usually sing it as yArO ivar yArO ...

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 16 May 2007, 04:57

ArO ivar ArO is how it is in AK's book (and how Nityashree sings it), but both Smt. DKP and Smt. MSS sang it at yArO ivar yArO...

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 16 May 2007, 04:59

Lji our posts crossed

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 May 2007, 05:50

isnt ArO a colloquial form of yArO?

I think it goes enna pErO, where pErO is colloquial form of peyarO? That could mean ArO is the right one.

Arun

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 May 2007, 07:11

ArAr Asaip paDAr? or yAr yAr Asaip paDAr? According to my dictionary, both Ar and yAr mean who in thamizh. With the bhairavi song, both sound fine whereas yAr yAr AsaippaDAr? does not sound agreeable to my ears.
It would drive me crazy to sing or hear a lullaby (thAlATTU) sung as yAr yArO, yArirarO

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 16 May 2007, 07:39

In the lullaby song ArArO ArirarO, the first word MAY not mean yAr yArO but could mean "Won"t you COOL DOWN/ CALM DOWN ?" I am not sure what the second word "arirarO" means !

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 May 2007, 07:56

It could also be ARu ARO? (river, river or six,six!) Not really. Ar or yAr is what it is, as far as I know. appA aDichchArO? ammA aDichchALO? (as if they would) and so on. The whole excercise is to lull the child to sleep with soothing sounds. Our professionals in psychology would educate us, I hope--although, don't be surprised if you hear: who said that a lullaby can really lull little ones to sleep?!

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 16 May 2007, 08:04

I think Sanjay Subrahmanyan sang ArO ivar ArO in Sydney last year but since my Tamil is pretty bad I wanted some clarification

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 May 2007, 19:26

The real words are "yArO ivar yArO". However, in the olden days (either AK or even Kamban) they would never use an iDaiyinam (the middle string of consonants) letter to begin a word. ya is one of the six iDaiyinam letters. Hence they changed it to more acceptable vowel beginning making it "ArO". The same thing goes with "ra", "la", "zha", and "La". rAman --> iRaman; lavangam --> ilavangam. There are almost no words beginning with "zha" or "La" in Thamizh. The only exception is the iDaiyinam letter "va". Perhaps that letter fell through the cracks and propagated through its progeny immensely.

There are some exceptions with the letter "yA" like yAkkai, yAngaNum, yAdu, yAY, yAzh etc. But many other words beginning with "y" are all imported words.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 May 2007, 03:24

sub - while the argument makes sense i have some doubts. If the actual word is yAr, a native tamizh word (not impor), then it would imply that the iDayinam rule is violated by a nAtive tamizh word? Or does this apply only for writing?

Note that rAman, lanka, lakshmanan etc. - they are not native tamizh but imports. Also, there are other (old?) words the start with yA - yAm, yAzh. Were they written as Am, Azh (which cant be as it means something else

), are some other form to avoid yA in old works?

Or perhaps ya is in the same kind as va, and Ar is just an alternate form meaning the same.

Arun

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 May 2007, 05:11

arunk:
Good questions! Every rule has exception(s). As I mentioned before imports were definitely modified. But "va" is totally exempt from the rule barring the beginning with iDaiyinam letters. I like iDaiyinam (as many others do if you know what I mean---there is a nice song which carries a line "en mannanukkup piDittadellAm iDaiyinam). But in literary usage they are relegated to the middle in general. As for the limited number of words such as yAzh. yAm, and similar words, the exception has been made (perhaps even in sangam period). There were not many words used beginning with "ya" or "yA" even in that period. "yAdum UrE yAvaraum kELir" is the famous statement bearing testimony to the exception. But as you notice there were not that many words even then beginning with "y". I am not claiming any expertise in the rule/exception definition. But it is mainly experience from the usages that you see. During the middle ages there were not any words coined beginning with "y".

Likewise I think the rule barring the beginning of a word has also been applied specifically to vallinam (no words starting with "Ra" or even "Da" or "Ta"). In mellinam again no start with "Na" (mUnRu suzhi) or "na'" (reNDu suzhi) but "^na", (limited words) "gna" (gnAlam, gnAyiRu), and "ma" are permitted. There is only one sentence I am aware of that begins with the first mellinam consonant. "^NappOl vaLai" by AvvaiyAr. Pl son't ask me the rationale for all this. I am ignorant in that area. Sorry this transformed into a language topic.

sindhu · Post by **sindhu** » 17 May 2007, 15:33

Even in one of GopAla KrishNa BhArathi's song it is starting as 'AarukkutAn teriyum avar mahimai'. Since the first alphabet of pure tamil always start with vowel mostly, ' aarukkutAn and aaro ivar yaro' seems to be correct. In tamil lulabby too, it is 'aarararO'...

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 May 2007, 20:21

While I still contend that the iDaiyinam letters are avoided as much as possible in starting a word (perhaps due to grammatical rules), it is possible that the shift from "yA" to "A" occurred in the middle ages mostly due to the more pleasing sound of "A" compared to "yA".

'yAaraDittAr unnai" (who hit you?) sounds authoritative and compelling like aTANA rAgam while "AraDittAr unnai" sounds more sympathetic and pleasing like Arabi rAgam.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 May 2007, 20:29

sindhu wrote:. In tamil lulabby too, it is 'aarararO'...

"ArArO" does not substitute for "yAryArO". It is actually "ARu-ARu" strung together with the "O" added for harmony. "ARu" means "calm down" (cf. ARuvadu sinam = avoid or mitigate anger). It is sung in the mode "ARARO ARiRARO" (ARu ARu O, ARi ARu O) to pacify a crying infant.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 17 May 2007, 21:56

ஆராட்டு, [ ārāṭṭu, ] கிறேன், ஆராட்டினேன், வேன், ஆராட்ட, v. a. (A contraction of தா ராட்டு.) To lull a child to sleep, தாலாட்ட
தாராட்டு, (p. 571) [ tārāṭṭu, ] s. [prop. தாலாட்டு.] Cradle songs, lullaby songs, தாலாட்டும்பாட்டு. 2. Obsequious attentions, spoken in displea sure or contempt. (c.)
தாராட்டு, (p. 571) [ tārāṭṭu, ] கிறேன், தாராட்டினேன், வேன், தாராட்ட, v. a. To lull or sooth a child. (old Dic.)

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 18 May 2007, 20:41

Mahakavi: The same meaning as expressed in your post No.15 for "ArArO" was given in Post No.7 above, but was ridiculed in Post No. 8 ! I still wonder about what the next line 'ArirarO" really means. Does it mean "Won't you cool/calm down" ?

vgvindan: Do the page No.s mentioned by you refer to some Graamar book or encyclopedia?

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 18 May 2007, 21:00

Sundara Rajan:
As I mentioned in my post, it is just a repetition. ARu + ARu for the first ARARO (Please calm down). Then ARi +ARu (just added emphasis) for the ARirARo (perhaps a distortion with the added"r" in the middle). That is my take, anyway.

As for vgvindan's reference it is from
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/romadi ... le=winslow

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 18 May 2007, 21:32

mahakavi,
IMHO ARu would be ஆறு in Tamil. Whereas this is Aru ஆரு - that's why I gave the reference. ArArO is not ARu+ARu; IMO ArAro cannot be split as Aru+Aru. It might have been derived from Ar ஆர்

ஆர் (p. 71) [ ār ] --ஆரு, கிறேன், ஆர்ந்தேன், வே ன், ஆர, v. n. To become full, complete, entire, crowded, to abound, நிறைய. 2. To abide, stay, தங்க. 3. To join, belong to, பொருந்த. 4. v. a To eat, drink, take food, சாப்பட. 5. To suffer, enjoy, experience, receive the fruit of actions, performed in former births, வினைப்பயனுகர. (p.) ஆர்ந்தமர்ந்துசெய். Be expeditious but with caution; i. e. let not your haste out-run your wit. அமையாரும்வெற்ப, O! king of the hills covered by the bamboos.

sundara rajan,
IMHO, ArArO - would not mean 'cool down'. In telugu it is called 'lAli lAli'. I think these words are just sounds which have come in usage over a period of time.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 18 May 2007, 22:20

vgvindan wrote:mahakavi,
IMHO ARu would be ஆறு in Tamil. Whereas this is Aru ஆரு - that's why I gave the reference. ArArO is not ARu+ARu; IMO ArAro cannot be split as Aru+Aru. It might have been derived from Ar ஆர்

sundara rajan,
IMHO, ArArO - would not mean 'cool down'. In telugu it is called 'lAli lAli'. I think these words are just sounds which have come in usage over a period of time.

vgvindan:
I understand when it is written in Thamizh it is written as "ArArO" using the iDaiyinam "r". What I thought was that it was a corruption in written form from "ARu" to "Ar". It is definitely not "Ar" converted from "yAr" since it does not fit the context of the song except when you sing "AraDittu nI azhudAy". Perhaps the words "ArArO ArirarO..." do not mean anything. It is just a pair of words like what we call "iraTTaik kiLavi" in Thamizh--not amounting to any meaning (marakkiLai caDa caDavenRu muRindadu---the tree limbs broke with the noise "caDa caDa"). They are tacked on to more meaningful words in the lullaby.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 18 May 2007, 22:33

ஆர் (p. 71) [ ār ] . Who, the interrogative pronoun common to both numbers and all persons, in the rational class, though properly the third person plural--contracted from யாவர் or யார். (c.) நீயார்? Who art thou? அவரார்? Who is he?--Note. When உம் is added to ஆர், it implies all, and with a negative, none--as யாரும், all, யாருமில்லை, no one--also when it is doubled, it is used distributively--as ஆராருக்குக் கொடுத் தான்? To whom did he give?

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 19 May 2007, 00:57

All I am saying is that "ArArO" is NOT "yAr yArO". As I said before "yAr" has been interchangeably used with "Ar"--especially in the post-sangam period. Even appar has used "nAmArkkum kuDiyallOm namanai anjcOm" (we are not bound (slave, subject) to anybody; we shall not fear the agent of death).
The etymology of "ArArO" remains unknown.

grsastrigal · Post by **grsastrigal** » 19 May 2007, 07:56

T.S.Balakrishna Sastrigal, in his upanyasam (uploaded in S.priya-Upanyasam segment) sings as Yaaro Ivar Yaaro,
Even if we see the origin of the song. Sita is singing this on seeing Raman, who was walking on the Road (ANNalum Nokkinan....) along with Laksh and Viswamithra. (Bala Kandam of Ramayana). Yaaro ivar Yaaro gives respect to the person, whom it denotes.
Since Mahakavi = Arunachala kavi in his "Pichle Janam"(!) , I take his word.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 19 May 2007, 22:50

Oh, no, not again! We have been on this road before!
grsastrigal:
Even if we take Kamban's verse, it is "aNNalum nOkkinAn, avaLum nOkkinAL". It is rAman who sees sItA first and then only sItA looks at rAman. So I go with the first one to look also thinks, and sings first.