Learning Carnatic Music

shripathi_g · Post by **shripathi_g** » 15 May 2007, 08:11

Recently, I decided to learn Carnatic Music in order to be able to sing decently and appreciate music better. I dropped out after a few weeks due to various reasons but primarily because I was bored. My learning was progressing quite well in fact when I quit. But I felt that I was missing something

I was taught the usual way. Sarali varisais et al. As someone who has been a rasika for the past few years, I wasn't able to relate the varisais to anything. If I had been taught, say Vatapi Ganapatim for instance, I'm sure I'd have fared better. Probably because of 3 reasons - 1) I must have heard it like a thousand times 2) I have around 25 different versions to learn from 3) I like the song. So, I was just wondering, why not start teaching CM with a song? At least, for people who already listen to music, shouldn't they be approached differently? Is there a precedent for what I'm asking?

-Sripathi

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 15 May 2007, 08:55

I don't see any problem with your thoughts, Sripathi. If you're already a rasika and listener, it might be more fun and involved to commence with a few easy numbers. I would probably pick a few smaller songs than vAtApi, though. Say pArvatIpatim, sObhillu saptaswara, gajAnanayutam etc etc.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 May 2007, 09:11

That is quite an interesting experience. The teaching methodology is indeed front end loaded...the combination of the various varisais + alankaram + varnams prepare the student for manOdharma singing and eventually be able to sing RTP effectively. But your objective was not that but to be able to just sing and within the classical idiom. I definitely do not know the answer on how one can go about learning the required tools and techniques in an alternate manner. But the Geethams and other songs ( Mohanam, Suddha Saveri, Kamas and Bilahari ) that are taught right after the rigorous varisai and alankaram exercises are fun to sing/play, don't they? And for that matter the initial malahari pieces as well.

shripathi_g · Post by **shripathi_g** » 15 May 2007, 09:28

Even if I wanted to take it up seriously, wouldn't I be better off learning something I can relate to? Just like a child that learns to say some words first and is then taught the alphabet. Are there teachers who take the approach that I'm talking about? If not, are there ways by which I can make my learning experience of varisais more interesting? As a start, I could try singing them by imitating MDR or MMI

meena · Post by **meena** » 15 May 2007, 09:41

As a start, I could try singing them by imitating MDR or MMI

shripathi do PLEASE u/l ur clip, i would like to listen

shripathi_g · Post by **shripathi_g** » 15 May 2007, 10:01

Now now, I'm not really aspiring to be a comedian

.

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 15 May 2007, 10:21

This is probably the problem of people listening to a lot and start learning late.

I have always strongly believed in the fact that the basics are very important. As meena says, one needs to go thro' the rigorous basics just to be able to not only sing intricate stuff but also to appreciate them, when somebody is doing it on stage.

When one goes to listen at a concert, it is not enough if u get the ragam and composer of the piece being presented. Thats only the beginning. Many a rasika, think identifying these two is the end of the game. For heaven's sake, i wish they understand that, it all begins there. After identifying the rAgam, to be able to appreciate each svaram and each phrase and each usage and to absorb it all, u need to be having a sharp and rigorous trained mind. The saraLi, the jaNTai, the alankArams, the gItams, the varNams, well they are all very important and add a lot to the way one appreciates music and hence enjoy more.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 15 May 2007, 11:00

I think there are many schools and teachers who begin with simple songs and geethams and slowly bring in the varisais. They do this especially with children who might get really bored. I have noticed in other classes of mine (not music), adults come in with lot of preconceived notions and ask too many questions that inhibit their learning.

The teacher plays an important role but the student also has a part to play in making the process interesting. For instance, the same saralee varisais, you could try to come up with some new combinations and play around with them. That might help in appreciating kalpanaswarams in concerts. Especially as an adult, most teachers aren't sure if you are really keen and how long you would stay. So, its all the more important for us to show initiative.

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 15 May 2007, 14:16

rbharath wrote:I have always strongly believed in the fact that the basics are very important. As meena says, one needs to go thro' the rigorous basics just to be able to not only sing intricate stuff but also to appreciate them, when somebody is doing it on stage.

That's very true. To be able sing/perform, one always needs to start from step1. Nothing comes easy, especially carnatic music, and there's no short cut to success...

-bhaktha

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 May 2007, 20:20

What Sripathi is asking should not be derided as a short-cut...Are there any alternate method that teachers have used? Just speculating a bit, may be, centuries back when the teaching system was introduced, Pallavi singing was the predominant concert practise and the lessons were targeted for that. ( BTW, I am not saying the current teaching methods are not useful or have failed.. far from it. )

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 15 May 2007, 20:52

Dear members, Anything, if it is formulated basing upon a logic, it helps for a disciplined development. If not, it leads to an undisciplined development. In the same manner, with my vast teaching experience, I have arrived at a logic and formulated the present syllabus for the music students of our Govt. Music institutions. Even after my retirement both from the Govt. service and active performing music field, I have modified the teaching methods and made them result oriented in a given time limit. Basing upon them I brought out the CD,â€™AMS Easy methodsâ€™ containing even some short-cut methods which are more suitable in this speedy age.
In my opinion while the Teacherâ€™s role is more than 85% the studentâ€™s role is less than 15%. Just like the parents, the Teacher should also feel the responsibility of teaching the student. The Teacher should very well be aware of when and what he should teach and when and in which way he should only initiate or guide the student with the only aim to make his student INDEPENDENT in all aspects. A mother, at the beginning level, should cook herself while explaining the details of cooking to her daughter, at the next level, she should initiate or guide her daughter cook under her supervision and at the final level, she should make her daughter cook successfully under nobodyâ€™s supervision. On these lines I have been training, guiding and initiating my students to mould them into successful artists.
Always success depends upon the confidence of a candidate to do things but not on his worth alone. Any person, though he is worth doing things, fails if he doesnâ€™t have the confidence. Thus, I have instilled confidence in my students by exposing them first to different rhythmical intricacies like teaching them Jati-alankaras in a particular manner. For this, I am always used to test their Laya instinct at first and then only their Shruti-knowledge. I believe that while Laya instills confidence in the student the Shruti gives pleasure. If their Laya instinct is not up to the mark I am not used to take them as my regular students even though their Shruti-knowledge is satisfactory. After that I am used to make them sing 8 Saralee-swaras, 4 Janta-swaras, 3 Datu-swaras (no upper-note exercises or lower-note-exercises at all) and 7 Alankaras in the 3rd degree of speed only along with my CD. Then they are taught only 6 Gitas, in Shankarabharana, Mohana, Shuddha-saveri, Kalyani, Malahari and one Lakshana-Gita in Shuddha-dhanyasi, all with alternative beats of both the hands and even without any Kampita or Gamaka, only to cover all the 12 notes. Then only the different Talas of all of them are taught within a dayâ€™s time. I am, mostly, used to initiate the student in doing things than teaching. Later, I am used to teach several left-hand finger exercises with bow and even without bow of Violin for 3 or 4 months which is the crucial stage to mould him as a Violinist. Later, Adi-tala-varnas are taught serially in the Ragas, Natakuranji, Kambhoji, Darbar, Shankarabharana, Kalyani, Begada, Todi, Saveri and Bharavi-ata-tala-varna. There is a logic behind this in maintaining this particular seriatim which could only be demonstrated, if needed. I am used to demonstrate each Varna, at first, in every detail of the finger technique involved and later to teach by which the first Natakuranji-varna takes 8-weeks to learn. Gradually the duration of learning each Varna decreases and, thus, the 2nd Varna needs 7-weeks, 3rd Varna 6-weeks and so on. The Gamakas of each Varna are modified twice or thrice. By the time I finish teaching these Varnas my student will become independent enough to learn Kritis and play on his own under my initiation and guidance basing upon the notation and my song sung and supplied by me. I directly teach, guide and initiate the students who remain under my vigil and practice regularly for more than 5 to 6 hrs. a day and at the end of the training of his 4th yr. he will become able to give a solo concert of 2 hrs. duration which can be appraised even by Vidwans. There are so many other relating important points also which could only be defined and demonstrated, if needed. amsharma.

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 16 May 2007, 00:40

to all those who favour teaching some pieces along with basics, well, how do u achieve that while teaching an instrument. Just because it is possible to sing anything, it doesnt warrant making such excuses, as lack of enthu or interest.

infact, a ardent rasika who has been listening music for sometime should be able to appreciate better the fact that it needs tremendous practice of basics before one could go into advanced stuff. a person who has been listening for years, should definitely be able to understand the fact that basic training is very essential and they should also have a rough estimate of how long that would take and they should have the patience to go thro' all that more than somebody who doesnt anything about music.

Can you get to solving partial differential equations, before learning 2+2=4 just because you have seen some maths question papers?

shripathi_g · Post by **shripathi_g** » 16 May 2007, 00:50

Bharath, I'm not advocating teaching just some pieces instead of the basics. I'm thinking about teaching the basics through the pieces that are already familiar to listeners. I'm not in favor of the argument that the same approach must be taken for all learners. Do all playback singers learn sarali varisai before singing? Why not try a top-down approach to teaching? How did people learn music before the varisais were instituted?

kkumar29 · Post by **kkumar29** » 16 May 2007, 01:10

shripati_g,

I'm not in favor of the argument that the same approach must be taken for all learners. Do all playback singers learn sarali varisai before singing?

The point is not how or when you learn it but you need to know the swarasthanams before you can sing some of the complex items. For example in one of the sangathis in your favourite song goes like this:

g p g g r s r g r r s
va - - - - - ta - - - pi

Now to sing the janta swaras gg, and rr correctly you need to have learnt the basics of singing the janta varisais correctly. It is not a question of singing the swarams in succession but in reality when you sing janta swaras the lower note needs to show itself in between the two swaras. How are you going to be able to sing that unless you practice the basics? It is not that teachers don't teach songs along with basics. But you need to have the basics to sing the krithis. They are the most advanced form of singing.

Believe me, as a person who started learning music at a very late stage in my life, I understand the value of the excercises when I am unable to sing some sangathi even close to what it should be. It takes me much longer than it would have, had I practiced and spent time on the basics.

K. Kumar.

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 16 May 2007, 01:23

I think one of the beauties of carnatic music is the systematic methodology that is prevalent and used by everybody. This allows us to measure the progress and the level to which one has reached. The moment you have completed varisai and gone to geetham you have moved to next level. And the day you start varnam you have graduated to a higher level. Even if you go from one teacher to another, the moment you say you have learnt upto three varnams the teacher will immediately have an idea of your knowledge level. The knowledge level is not in terms of what you know but what you can perform. In an art form isn't knowledge different from performance? You might know what Hamsadhwani but to be able to reproduce all the swarams in various combinations, it takes practice. What one has in the brain has to reach the voice box involuntarily.

Having said that, if you have the knowledge, won't you will be able to breeze through the initial lessons and graduate to the next level in no time? Initially the songs may not sound interesting but with enough rounds of practice, even a simple geetham like "lambodhara" will sound more professional.

Yes there are exceptions. I have read that D.K.Pattammal never learnt varisai. She just listened to the concert and reproduced them herself. But those are the exception rather than the rule

When I daughter comes back from her guitar class, I ask her what she learnt. She mentions something but I am not able to have an idea of what level she is in after two years of classes. I asked her teacher what methodology he follows and he vaguely mentioned that you just tell me the song that is to be taught and he will teach it! I do not think there is such systematic teaching aids available in western or pop music.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 May 2007, 02:01

IMHO, singing is deceptively hard. Most of us when we are rasikas, think "hey i can do a decent job". I certainly was one (and i started learning after many years of listening). But once you start learning, you find out that you arent exactly reproducing the sangati exactly how your teacher wants - but "approximating a lot". And you think you are not even making a mistake if what you are singing seems to fit the raga - and that is where your "previous listening" experience can work sometimes work against you.

Many times, I think I am doing ok - but when my teacher says here "you have take swara X in this place, but you are taking swara Y" (both X and Y are in the raga and so i couldnt spot the mistake)

Now do varisais help? I think they do more for tala/laya skill. I wish it was toned down initially (like why 3 speeds for dhruva/jhampa/ATA tALA at an earlu stage), and tackled during say varnam level. But varnams is where things get very very enjoyable (and tougher).

But when I started I found everything a challenge so I didnt get bored.

Arun

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 16 May 2007, 02:22

If to do were as easy to know what were good to do
Chapels had been churches, poor mans' cottages princes' palaces

Quote from Shakespeare

komalangi · Post by **komalangi** » 16 May 2007, 06:46

I have been watching cricket since I was probably 5 years old. I have followed Sachin Tendulkar's batting since 1989. I can describe and visualize every cricket shot that he plays to the minute detail. I am therefore ready to practice with the Indian cricket team!!!

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 16 May 2007, 07:59

sramaswamy wrote:I have read that D.K.Pattammal never learnt varisai. She just listened to the concert and reproduced them herself. But those are the exception rather than the rule

I've read that Bhavadhaarini (DKP's disciple) also did not start with varisais.

While, as a rule, lessons need to get increasingly complex, there is no need to start right from the basics. You do not need to understand binary representation like twos complements to program though you will theoritically be a better programmer if you know that. If that were true, it violates the fundamental principle of abstraction. Even in computer science, there are schools like Berkeley which start from high level languages and move closer to the machines. There are other schools which start from low level and gradually move up the ladder (I think MIT does this but I'm not so sure). Both systems have produced reasonable quality students

Unless you have taught children/adults, it is very difficult to appreciate the art of teaching itself. Great teachers understand the capabilities of the individuals and structure the lessons accordingly instead of a one size fits all approach. However, they also make sure the student doesn't miss out on any of the critical lessons. I cannot understand why vocal lessons and intrumentals have to follow the same pattern. If there is no way for the instrumentalists to learn songs before the varisais, let it be. Having said that, the beginning piano lessons in the western music are also structured as short songs (experts can confirm this).

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 16 May 2007, 08:57

As Vasantakokilam has said, the varasai, alankarams, etc lay an excellent ground work for manodharma elements of Carnatic music. It helps to establish sruthi, builds knowledge of swara sthAnams and establishes the basics of the tala system. These facets are essential part of our music. In fact, the patterns in varasai come in useful when singing kalpana swaram.

From my own experience of teaching, once a student can sing to sruthi and sings the swaras in the right place, then they can breeze through the early lessons - perhaps in around 4 classes.

Sure you can learn songs by ear, but for a serious beginner, the systemized approach we have will put them in a much better stead for the future.

shripathi_g · Post by **shripathi_g** » 16 May 2007, 09:05

"I have been watching cricket since I was probably 5 years old. I have followed Sachin Tendulkar's batting since 1989. I can describe and visualize every cricket shot that he plays to the minute detail. I am therefore ready to practice with the Indian cricket team!!!"

Both your choice of analogy and your interpretation of my question are truly stunning. Keep your erudite comments coming Sir.

shripathi_g · Post by **shripathi_g** » 16 May 2007, 09:16

I'm not in favor of doing away with them altogether. Why not introduce them as the songs are being taught so that the learner knows their relevance? Are there or have there been teachers who take a novel approach to teaching CM?

Babu Nair · Post by **Babu Nair** » 16 May 2007, 09:41

Dear Shripathi, are you looking a open university for music? still, basic lessions like sarali varisas, janta varisas, geetham etc. will be included in their syllabus. seniority wise a person can not be promoted as a manging director of the company. do you think whoever perform in the stages, they practice only the respective keerthanas? they also practice these basic varisas every day. so, these varisas is also important like varnam & keerthanam. you have to practice every day. then only you can sing a keerthana without any fault. you feel boring means your mind is not grown up for learning classical music. you want a shortcut fame, not ready to workhard. you set your mind first then think about music.

ram · Post by **ram** » 16 May 2007, 09:58

shripathi,

I am just trying to think aloud about how one can sustain his/her interest in such a situation:

1) Assuming that its the varisais that are in question, take a song sung by a good artist in the raga mAyAmALavagauLa. Pl don't take hamsadhwani. Hear it and then record your own voice singing the song. Compare the two. Are the notes falling at the right places? Are the phrases coming properly?
2) Take a song or an alapana (mAyAmALavagauLa) sung by a good artist and see if you can identify the notes as the song/alapana progresses (without seeing the notations in case of a song). Try to sing those notes aloud and see if they indeed represent what was sung by the artist
3) Listen to a mAyAmALavagauLa alapana and try to sing some of the sancharams by yourself. Record and see if you got them right.

In case you are not completely satisfied with even one of the three above, try to go back, master the varisais and the position of the notes and see if you are able to make a better attempt. This if done repeatedly might initiate and sustain that internal drive to go through the rigorous process of getting trained in the basics.

Ram

shripathi_g · Post by **shripathi_g** » 16 May 2007, 10:18

Ram, that's a good idea. Let me try it out.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 16 May 2007, 10:19

Shripathi,
I don't know of any schools that completely do away with varisais and I think you are also not looking at such an option. But, I think there are a few like Carnatica and Sita Rajan's Bala Brundam where they do teach you small songs before or in between. I certainly don't know of anyone who would teach you Vatapi in the first class

shripathi_g · Post by **shripathi_g** » 16 May 2007, 10:39

Vatapi was just an example. Any small krithi would do. I actually fared well when I was learning the varisais. By the way, I don't want to completely do away with them but just introduce them slowly. Anyway, from what I have heard so far, it looks like that won't work. I don't think I can go to a teacher and tell him how to teach me.

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 16 May 2007, 10:39

As a piece of info, i am told Senior vidwans of yesteryears and today, even today practice some gItams and varNams on a regular basis. TNS began his kalAnidhi concert with 'lambOdara', the malahari gItam. I see it as his gesture to tell people that basics are indeed important. History says, Papa Venkataramaiah never missed practicing, viribhONi, vanajakshi ninnE (kalyANi) and intha chalamu in all three speeds everyday. The alathoor brothers would sing alankarams with anulOma pratilOma regularly to keep their laya in control.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 16 May 2007, 10:55

Bharath,
What you are saying holds good for any artform. Ballet dancers never do a class without barre work. No cricket player goes to the match without having nets. I don't think anybody disagrees on the fact that you have to keep fine tuning your basics in order to be a master in your chosen field. But, to say, that you have to follow the same sequence that has been laid out centuries before, is not acceptable. Any new teaching method that is systematic and disciplined should also be encouraged.

Shripathi - I don't think many people have tried the approach you have in mind though there are some teachers who do teach you small songs. So, it is not right to conclude it won't work. If we had only Ambassador cars, then we'll say it the best car. If you feel your learning approach is also disciplined and systematic, what's the harm in trying?

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 16 May 2007, 11:01

bala, i m only trying to drive in the idea that basics are needed. and i believe that unless u get the basics properly laid out, u cant appreciate anything higher. There might be examples of ppl who were masters but never learnt basics, they are exceptions. for an average learner basics are a must. I see that ppl arent disagreeing with that, however i am of the view that basics are important and teaching kutti songs along with basics is not an appreciable exercise.

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 16 May 2007, 11:06

sarali jandai and alankara are devised for swara gnana. if the same are not practiced on regular basis and if songs are learnt without the knowledge of each spot of the word in the respective swara it is nothing but parrotting.
swara gnana opens up a new world of communication.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 16 May 2007, 13:53

The basics are undoubtedly important. One can get away with learning in a 'rapid' fashion for some time. But, for true mastery, the hard route is the only way.Varisais must be mastered followed by Geethams and Varnams before taking up Krithis. It is said that Shri MSG used to play Sarali and Jantai Varisais in all speeds everyday in his practice sessions well into his career.
Sathej

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 16 May 2007, 14:21

Just a quick question on the traditional method. Do you practise the varisais in the raga of a geetham for all geethams? Or do we practice the varisais only in MMG and move to geethams in Malahari,Mohanam etc.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 16 May 2007, 14:38

Dear brother-members, Different items of music like Saralees, Jantas, Datus, Alankaras, Geetas, Varnas, Kritis etc., are prescribed to gradually increase your knowledge leading to the very important MANODHARMA. But many of the music teachers, nowadays, are teaching a number of items i.e., 15 or 20 Saralees, 10 Jantas, 10 Datus, 15 or 20 Gitas, 20 Varnas, 100 Kritis etc., etc., only to drag on the time and, in turn, to earn more money by this but not to increase the truly required knowledge of the student. No mother upon earth makes her daughter sit idle and always gives her already cooked items by which her daughter will never learn at all how to cook things on her own. In the same manner, without unnecessarily overloading the student with a number of items, the teacher himself should find ways to make the teaching process easier and at the same time effective to make his student independent in all aspects. If the teacher himself thinks well, goes behind the logic in teaching a particular item of music and finalizes the items and their number to teach his student such teacher only can quicken the process and properly make every minute of teaching valuable to the student than exploiting him for earning more money. amsharma.

madhurya · Post by **madhurya** » 16 May 2007, 15:36

dear sripathi...i read this thread with a lot of interest as i am a teacher myself and have faced these situations...wherein a student or a parent wants rapid results.having been in the field since the last 2and a 1/2 decades...i would like to tell you this.

Each varasai as framed by Sangita Pitamaha Sri Purandaradasaru has a purpose to serve.

Just like a child in KG classes is gently and slowly taken into writing ..a student of music is taken through the sapthasvaras..weaving in and out of them.This makes the voice and ear recognise the frequencies of these notes, so that by the end of such an exercise one should be able to sing ...say...da or ga or any other svara without starting from sa.Here deerghakshara exercises will help build the lung power...as singing is all about breath controll too!

Next...daatu varasais teach you jumping up and down these 7 svara steps...from any to any ....giving you a firm grip on them in the process.

Next...the taara sthaayi varasais introduce the concept of a different higher octave....and the mandra sthayi varasais ..the lower .

Janta varasais...ahh! this is where the strength to the voice comes from. When you are emphasising the 2nd note the fractional opening and closing of your vocal cords add a lot of strength to your singing.

By now your voice would be able to take the alankaras...the different taala gaits and with also doing them in akaras speed and lightness is learnt.

Now the gamakas thro' the geetas...memory is strengthened thro' svarajatis.

The next item takes you to the gateway of concert music. From here the more you work t..the better you get!:)

madhurya · Post by **madhurya** » 16 May 2007, 15:39

contd....many students who wanted to try a short cut lateron felt they shouldn't have done it 'cause the svara-sthana gnana will not be as good as it is by the proper method.

shripathi_g · Post by **shripathi_g** » 16 May 2007, 20:59

I don't want to give the impression that I want a shortcut. I'm willing to put in the hard work as necessary. I don't want to be a musician overnight, so I'm willing to take my own sweet time till I get it right. I'm just pondering about alternate teaching methodologies.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 17 May 2007, 15:19

Dear brother-member, sbala, What you wrote is correct. Everybody agrees that we have to follow our great tradition. That is true. But, I say, to fit in our present-day set up and also to make the things easier and quicker there is nothing wrong in modifying the tradition without any compromise in maintaining the standards. To tell the barest truth, many of the present-day musicians, under the disguise of tradition, are not at all doing things in favour of the poor aspirant. I can prove all these things beyond any doubt if needed. For example, every Indian musician cries aloud it is very easy to sing of play western music as they do not have any Gamakas at all in their music. Everybody agrees with it that our music has become more complicated due to all the Gamakas incorporated. OK. While the westerners have framed a foolproof notation which is suitable and easily followable to their system, is it not the duty of our so called stalwarts to find another suitable and easily followable notation system to our music. All our music teachers cry aloud that Manodharma-music could be obtained only by constant listening to the music of stalwarts and regular and vigorous practice of it and also that there is no short-cut method to learn it. No, it is not true at all. I have, long back, experimented this upon a number of students and having found some easy methods I have brought them out in my book, Sangita Svararaga Sudha (Telugu & English) which is supplied along with 9 pre-recorded cassettes. Recently, after a heavy demand from the public, when I have brought out 500 copies of another book, Sangita Vidya Bodhini (Telugu) in which the entire syllabus of Certificate and Diploma examinations in Karanataka music of our State of Andhra Pradesh is furnished in notation and four CDs in mp3 format containing the items right from Saralees upto Kritis sung by me in the same notations of this book, are also supplied at a very low cost of Rs.300/- (US $ 10/- for NRIs - excluding the freight charges) all the copies are exhausted like hot cakes within one month and I was compelled to bring out another 1000 copies of it in the next month itself. We are having a number of music books bringing out a number of compositions in notation but without any pre-recorded cassette in which even a single composition of it is sung in the same notation and, in the same manner, thousands of cassettes and CDs in which hundreds of compositions and even live concerts are available but without any book having the same compositions in the same notation. Like this, there are umpteen heart-burning problems of our Karnataka music and unless all these things are discussed at full length and solved in one way or other to keep our Great Indian culture in tact, I am damn afraid that nobody can stop our Karnataka music from extinction. I feel extremely sorry to write all theses things so seriously. amsharma.

nadhasudha · Post by **nadhasudha** » 31 May 2007, 23:02

Swara jnana does not come merely by practicing the varisais only. My son has been learning music for the past 8 years and until recently used to practice akaara sadhakam(sarali,jantai,dhatu,alankarams for Maayamalavagowla,Shankarabharanam,kalyani etc) for every raagam he has learnt. After a while, he switched teachers and realised that he was singing the akaaram by rote rather than singing it consciously by knowing the swarasthanam. The new teacher himself a concert musician has devised some neat techniques whereby he has developed very good swarasthana knowledge and no this does not need elaborate varisais practice. There indeed is a shortcut and it does work as is evident from my son's learning . However I am not saying that the varisais should not be learnt. To test and see if you have real swarasthanam knowledge, sing the shadja note and picture any note say gandharam and you should be able to sing it. You should be able to jump to any note at the mere thought of it without serially traversing the octave which is what real swarasthanam knowledge is for a vocal music learner and aspirant.

I have listened to recordings of my son's teacher where he traverses the octave singing each of the 12 notes in succession. The difficulty of this is enormous. You would have to try singing this to understand how difficult it is It is easy to play it on an instrument(I am a vainika and I know it is easy to play it on an instrument) but to get the voice to sing it, you will need to internalise the swarasthana and this can be achieved by shortcuts.

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 01 Jun 2007, 00:12

nadhasudha wrote:The new teacher himself a concert musician has devised some neat techniques whereby he has developed very good swarasthana knowledge and no this does not need elaborate varisais practice. There indeed is a shortcut and it does work as is evident from my son's learning . However I am not saying that the varisais should not be learnt. To test and see if you have real swarasthanam knowledge, sing the shadja note and picture any note say gandharam and you should be able to sing it. You should be able to jump to any note at the mere thought of it without serially traversing the octave which is what real swarasthanam knowledge is for a vocal music learner and aspirant.

1. I am definitely interested in knowing what the "short cut " method is (if you wish to share). As a cm fan for the past many years and one who has taken considerable interest in teaching methods of cm in the past, this is the first time I am hearing of such a short cut. ( I am in now way doubting the method and am geniunely interested in understanding it)
2. The test you have quoted is not enough to test one's swara knowledge. The ultimate test of swara jyanam would be to identify swarams for phrases in alapanais and thanams (probably sung by TNS

).
Btw, varisais are meant to improve one's sruti shuddham, voice timbre, voice range, laya control and capacity to sing brigas.
-bhaktha

nadhasudha · Post by **nadhasudha** » 01 Jun 2007, 08:04

bhaktha,

1. The technique has been packaged and is available as a voice culture CD commercially and I am not sure if I can divulge the details. If you are interested we can take this offline and communicate via email on this topic. Disclaimer - BTW I am merely stating that I like this particular product and do not stand to gain anything financially lest my intentions be misunderstood.
2. Identifying swarams for alapanais and thanams is easier than singing a note in isolation from memory. All phrases depend on patterns that emphasize successive notes and it is easier to decipher it. However to be able to sing a note at the mere thought of it and to sing the 12 notes of the octave in succession is what real swara jnanam is about. You will of course have to listen to a recording where this has been accomplished to understand how difficult it is to sing it. If you are able to do this, you will be identifying swaras for phrases very easily.
3. Varisais do serve a purpose for a beginner but to go to the next level there are other practice techniques which will help.

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 01 Jun 2007, 12:56

nadhasudha wrote:3. Varisais do serve a purpose for a beginner but to go to the next level there are other practice techniques which will help.

Completely mistaken. Varisais are to be practised everyday, whether you are a beginner or an expert. Quoting sathej: "It is said that Shri MSG used to play Sarali and Jantai Varisais in all speeds everyday in his practice sessions well into his career."
I can even tell you of a top ranking vidwan today, who says that varisais are not important and my!! I do find him stuggling in the upper octaves!
And about the cd...if you give the details, I don't mind purchasing.
-bhaktha

nadhasudha · Post by **nadhasudha** » 01 Jun 2007, 21:02

This will be the last post I am going to make on this topic.
It appears that you are more interested in defending varisais than learning other shortcuts
You are entitled to your opinion. I have nothing againt varisais and neither did I say that they
are not needed. I just have discovered other shortcut techniques which give better results and have helped
me and my son in our pursuit of carnatic music.

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 01 Jun 2007, 21:12

I didn't mean to start an argument. I was quite geniuine in whatever I said and had no bad intentions in mind. If I have been misunderstood, I'm sorry.
-bhaktha

pramodh · Post by **pramodh** » 02 Jun 2007, 16:11

i agree with Shripathi. Not everyone will find the conventional way of teaching to be interesting. Infact its incredibly boring. There is no evidence to suggest that leaning in in XYZ order is the only way you can master carnatic music.

I am not saying that one needs to be ignorant of alangarams etc, but surely there could be different ways of learning them rather than being too much prescriptive.

I disagree that Western music hads no system!. It certainly has. I learnt guitar 20years back. Now I look at the new teaching manuals on guitar and western music, and it is still the same principles but more interesting. I see no reason why this cant extend to carnatic music either.

pramodh · Post by **pramodh** » 02 Jun 2007, 16:15

madhrya,

I wish every carnatic teacher can do it like you do. Sometimes explaining to the student why things are done in a certain way, rather than saying " just do it, because Mr X 500 years ago decided that this was the way to go about it", helps.

The same Mr X may have almost certainly been a bit more innovative if he was around today, i think!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 02 Jun 2007, 21:08

The traditions of Carnatic music!

When my mridangam guruji first came to London, and people asked questions, he would point out that, in India, people learnt and did what they were told; they didn't ask questions.

Now, more than a decade later, he invites them, and is dissapointed if he doesn't get them.

He told me, "I have so much deepened my own understand by being here, where I have to answer questions".