Compositions that reflect contemporary themes.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Jul 2007, 07:34

Thank you, Sangeet Rasik. Some men are born to be great, but what price they do pay for being so! Sigh...

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 16 Jul 2007, 08:33

svabhAvEna kauntEya nibaddha: svEna karmaNA ||
kartum nEcchasi yanmOhAtkariShyasyavaSO(a)pi tat || 60 ||
ISvara: sarvabhUtAnAm hRddESO(a)rjuna tiShThati ||
bhrAmayansarvabhUtAni yantrArUDhAni mAyayA || 61 ||

"Fettered, O Son of Kunti, by thy own karma, born of thy own nature, what thou, from delusion, desires not to do, thou shalt have to do in spite of thyself."
"The Lord, O Arjuna, dwells in the hearts of all beings, causing all beings, by his mAyA, to revolve, (as if) mounted on a machine." (BG XVIII.) (Translation by Swami Swarupananda)

It is doubtful whether such people really feel (or aware) that they are 'great'.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Jul 2007, 08:40

Good composition SR both lyrically and musically. Thanks. I guess MD's bANi is what you try to mold your compositions after. Came off very well.

Regarding Desh vs sOrat, that is an interesting name linkage. I do not understand Hindi that well.. Is Pt. Jha and the carnatic demo talk about the same musicological principles. That carnatic demo is fantastic...in such a short clip, the differences between KG and SuraTi are brought out. Neyveli Santhanagopalan has also sung Desh, Kedaragowla and suraTi one after another to show they are allied and to bring out what marks their identity. Until I learnt they are allied ragas in such demos, I had a reasonably clear and separate conception of each one of them ( suraTi to a lesser extent ). I perceive Kedara Gowla and Desh very differently in terms of raga bhavam even after learning that they are allied. I am glad such knowledge did not spoil it for me

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 16 Jul 2007, 11:12

VK,

Thanks for the comments. Yes, the two clips are similar in the sense that Jha is talking about the derivation of desh from sorat by basically strengthening the gandhara of sorat. In fact this appears to have generated such a melodic appeal that the original raga sorat has fallen into disuse in the north.

The carnatic demo explores the strengthening of the gandhara in surati (as well as the dhaivata) to arrive at the basic form of kedaragaula. However, I am not aware of any derivative relationship.

Desh and kedaragaula are fundamentally not that different, though they cannot be claimed to be very close either. One does have to be careful to avoid encroaching on the other's territory. I have been conscious of this when composing the desh krti but I do not have a composition in kedaragaula yet.

I must also clarify that while my compositions use MD's as a structural model, I do not consider myself a modern-day imitator of MD. Rather, I consider myself as standing on the shoulder of a GIANT while pursuing other avenues. These "other avenues" include attempting to combine an explicit use of non-religious themes with the unmatched grandeur and depth of the Sanskrit language and MD's brilliant version of the 'krti' concept. I cordially invite professional musicians rooted in classicism to try some of these compositions.

That being said, it would be a good idea to next present one of my two compositions regarding MD himself ("muttusvaminam sadashrayeham"). It is in shubhapantuvarali (the other one is in begada).

SR

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Jul 2007, 01:29

I must also clarify that while my compositions use MD's as a structural model, I do not consider myself a modern-day imitator of MD. Rather, I consider myself as standing on the shoulder of a GIANT while pursuing other avenues. These "other avenues" include attempting to combine an explicit use of non-religious themes with the unmatched grandeur and depth of the Sanskrit language and MD's brilliant version of the 'krti' concept.

Understood. And thanks for the clarifications on the other matters.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 18 Jul 2007, 21:29

SR,

Have you tried the lyrical concepts (i forget the official poetic terms ) that Dikshitar has in tyAgarAja yOgavaibhavam and "the reverse of it" in mAyE? If so, can you please post them too?

Thanks
Arun

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 19 Jul 2007, 06:16

AK, You are probably referring to gopuccha ('cow-tail') and srotovaha ('outflow-from-source') yatis. MD's composition 'tyagarajayogabhaivam' has both, and 'maye tvam yahi' has only gopuccha (if I remember correctly - I have not learned this composition). I have a few krtis with either of these features, though none with both in the same krti. The next composition to be presented (probably on the weekend) has the gopuccha. SR

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Jul 2007, 21:46

yep that was it. And yes I forgot tyAgarAja yOgavaibhavam has both kinds.

Looking forward to your composition. Please include meanings and details of the individual pieces that make up the gopuccha.

Arun

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 27 Jul 2007, 11:03

The next composition presented is regarding Muthuswami Dikshitar, in my opinion the greatest Indian vaggeyakara. Although other composers like Swati Tirunal wrote more beautiful poetry (in some cases truly reminiscent of the 'Golden Age' poets) and yet others like Tyagaraja evoked more bhakti and mass appeal, none exceeded him in erecting a musical edifice that combined the very best elements in Indian civilization.

Needless to say, one composition is insufficient to capture all facets of Dikshitar (I have two at present). Although the composition itself is of ridiculously low quality in comparison to its subject, it attempts to portray some of his musical, philosophical, and personal characteristics.

â€œmuttusvAminam sadASrayEhamâ€

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 27 Jul 2007, 11:06

Wonderful composition. I'd love to hear the recording or see a notation for this.

srinidhi · Post by **srinidhi** » 27 Jul 2007, 11:22

Excellent, SR.

SubhapantuvarALirAgE AditALEna gIyatE

Should it not be siva pantuvarali ragE?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Jul 2007, 20:37

well done SR!
don't you want
sangItas*A*mrAjam
The city kAshI (vAraNAsi) is also represented as kAshi and was not derived from the dhatu 'kAsh dIptau'. It was derived from the abundance of kAsha grass (darbha) in the region!

could you expand the concept of atyadbhutamaNDUka ?

Await your audio!

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 27 Jul 2007, 23:22

cmlover wrote:well done SR!
don't you want
sangItas*A*mrAjam

Await your audio!

Sangeetrasik,

A very nice composition indeed befitting the great composer!

sattamam SAntakaruNAdirasa-|-sAravantam vEdAgamavidvantam ||
santatam kASivasantam Siva-|-santam vasantam santam tam bha-||
-vantam hRnnivasantam uttama-|-vINAvantam varadhImantam ||

I am reminded of

santatam yamunAmbApuri nivasantam natasantam hindOLava
santamAdhavam jAnakIdhavam ...

etc from MD's Hindola vasanta kriti

and also of BMK's chintayAmi santatam Sri muttuswAmi dIkShitam .

CML, SR,

Shouldn't it be sAmrATam ?

-Ramakriya

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 28 Jul 2007, 00:00

Srinidhi,

Sure - why not ?

A matter of taste, I guess. Generally I use the raga nomenclature that is now prevalent - Subhapantuvarali instead of Sivapantuvarali and kamavardhani instead of kasiramakriya etc.

CML,

I believe it should be samrAjam = emperor/supreme ruler (accusative). sAmrAjam/sAmrAjyam would be "empire".

Yes, the name kASi can also be derived from the existence of the type of grass found in the area. By the way kASirAja is used instead of kASIrAja in epic sanskrit. Can you also check ashtadhyayi regarding shortening of 'I' sometimes observed in compounds ? For example: why does kALI + dAsa become kALidAsa (not kALIdAsa).

Ramakriya,

The word is samrAj. The nominative is samrAT but accusative is samrAjam, not samrATam. Similarly, vAc = "speech". Nominative is vAk but accusative is vAcam. parivrAj = "wandering mendicant". Nominative is parivrAT but accusative is parivrAjam.

Also very interesting comparison to the sahitya in santanaramasvaminam, I hadn't thought of that. Yes the anupallavi does sound very MD-esque. I did not know BMK composed on MD! Is a recording available ? Also, I have never been able to find recordings of the compositions in praise of MD written by the tanjavur quartet.

SR

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 28 Jul 2007, 00:18

cml,
There seems to be some confusion about the 'maNDUka'. I have gone through the kRti as given in the book of Shri KN Srinivasan. The following explanation is given for the word 'maNDUka'

maNDUka iti muniH tasyAgamanaM sUcitaM | na tu prANinaH ||

I think the kRti 'Sri sundararAjaM' quoted by Sangeet Rasik, pertains to kShetra 'tiruvanbil' - one of 108 divya dESams (complete details may be downloaded from http://www.prapatti.com/slokas/english/DivyaDeshams.pdf )
The Lord's name is 'vaDivazhagiya nambi' - same as 'sundara rAja'.

As per the sthala purANa - "Mandooka Muni in his state of intense penance in underwater, failed to pay respects to sage Durvasa, who cursed Mandook Muni to take the form of a toad. Upon worshipping Lord Vishnu at this Shetram Manduka Muni was relieved of his curse and hence the temple tank is called Manduka Pushkarini."

Therefore, IMHO, the maNDUka referred by Sangeet Rasik contrasting with 'kUpa maNDUka' is not appropriate.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 28 Jul 2007, 00:26

Sangeet Rasik wrote:Ramakriya,

The word is samrAj. The nominative is samrAT but accusative is samrAjam, not samrATam. Similarly, vAc = "speech". Nominative is vAk but accusative is vAcam. parivrAj = "wandering mendicant". Nominative is parivrAT but accusative is parivrAjam.
SR

Thanks for the clarification

Sangeet Rasik wrote:Also very interesting comparison to the sahitya in santanaramasvaminam, I hadn't thought of that. Yes the anupallavi does sound very MD-esque. I did not know BMK composed on MD! Is a recording available ? Also, I have never been able to find recordings of the compositions in praise of MD written by the tanjavur quartet.

SR

The kriti by BMK on MD is in rAga sucharitra, in jampe tALa.

It is in one of his commercial releases; Since that can not be uploaded, I can try to sing it sometime (wheneber that happens!).

He uses the shrOtOvahayati that is used by MD too as: nipuNam-gAna nipuNam - dEshIya gAna nipuNam-mArgadEshIya gAna nipuNam.

You can find text of some compositions on MD (including one of Tanjore Quartet, and BMK here:

http://www.geocities.com/vc_sekaran/fil ... hitar.html

-Ramakriya

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 28 Jul 2007, 00:59

VGV,

The comparison was in jest, using a pun on the word "atyadhbhutamanduka" that was employed by MD in one of his composition.

The symbolism in maNDUka is of Vedic origin. maNDUka was a Vedic rishi and the maNDUkas ("Frogs") were a school of philosophers, associated with the mANDUkya upanishad. There is in the rig veda a sukta called the "maNDUka sUkta" (the hymn of frogs) wherein the brahmans chanting the mantra are characterized as croaking frogs. Although some scholars consider this to be a satire, I think it is simply referring to some brahmans (from the maNDUka school). So in jest, "atyadbhutamaNDUka" was meant to denote a brahman of excellent quality as opposed to a kUpamaNDUka (frog in well). Also note, the mANDUkya upanishad is considered the "locus classicus" of the advaita school, since Gaudapada the 'founder' of advaita wrote a detailed commentary on this upanishad to explain the advaita principles.

In a broader sense, there seems a strong note of "Totemism" in the vedas/upanishads. There seem to be philosophical schools that represented themselves with animal totems. E.g., the chandogya upanishad describes some brahmans performing certain rituals as Dogs (the episode of Baka Dalbhya). Again this is taken by some as a satire, but could also be referring to the Dog school. The SvetASvatara upanishad is another example. SvEtASvatara means a "white mule". In another legend, yajnavalkya is supposed to have revealed vedic material to some tittiras ("partridges"), possibly a reference to a school of that name associated with the taittirIya recension of the yajurveda.

Also, maNDUka need not have been the "real name" of the rishi, it could just have been his Totem name. For example, Baka seems a Totem name (Baka means a "crane/heron") but the upanishad mentions that his other name (probably his "real" one) was Glava Maitreya. Then again Glava means "unhappy", so it would take a certain sense of humor for someone to name their son Glava.

Puranas came later and are mythological/fantastic in nature.

SR

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 28 Jul 2007, 03:13

VGV,

The kriti SrI sundararAjam in kASirAmakriya pertains only to azhagar kOil tirumAlirumsOlai. Evidence is there in the song itself.

(1) MD sings about vRSAbhAchala which is nothing but the hill on which pazhamudirsOlai is located.
(2) sOmaskanda vimanam is the vimanam here (In tiruvanbil, it is tAraka vimAnam).
(3) The river in tirumAlirumsOlai is nUpura gangai (In tiruvanbil, it is manDuka tIrtam).
(4) While coming back from vaigai Aru, azhagar blesses manDuka mahariSi which is mentioned as atyabhuta manDukanAmAgama (or manDuka utsavam).

Ref:
http://www.medieval.org/music/world/car ... rajam.html
http://www.ibiblio.org/sripedia/oppilia ... 00035.html

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 28 Jul 2007, 04:45

While on the subject, let us take a closer look at the sahitya of "SrIsundararAjam".

The sahitya given by Todd McComb is "atyadbhutamaNDUkAnAm AgamamahOtsavavibhavam". My copy of A. Sundaram Iyer's "dIkshita kIrtanamAlA" also has the same sahitya.

I have heard it sung by Vijay Siva as "maNDUkAnAm", in agreement with the sahitya above.

Now, maNDUkAnAm means "of the frogs" (plural). In other words, it is not an individual by name of maNDUka who is being referred to. The line could then translate to "He who is honored (vibhava) during the coming (Agama) festival (mahOtsava) of the excellent frogs (atyadbhutamaNDUkAnAm)."

SR

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Jul 2007, 07:58

SR

here is my take. The word 'sAmrAjyam' is derived as
sam+rAj+yat = sAmrAjya (vriddhi of the initial letter). But the word 'samrAj' as compounded does not exist. There is the word 'samrAT' meaning emperor current from vedic times.See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samraat
Accordingly the dvitIya declension by standard rules will be 'samrADhaM'.Note that this is one word (not a compound sam+raj). Ramakriya is almost right!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Jul 2007, 08:24

Note that
tArANam means the act of crossing. When you want say somebody (an agent) helps to cross you use 'tAraka'.
Hence you should be using
maraNajananabhavAbdhitArakam |
meaning one who helps to cross the ocean of birth and death!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 28 Jul 2007, 09:04

CML,

I think this is a tweedledum-tweedledee argument, but let's have it anyway.

The word samrAj most certainly exists, there should be no confusion on it. Please check any dictionary, eg. Apte. samrAT is only the nominative declension which is irregular.

This is a characteristic of the palatal stems wherein the nominative singular changes to cerebral T or guttural (k/g), whereas the accusative does not. Other similar stems are parivrAj (already mentioned), rtvij (which becomes rtvik in nominative but rtvijam in accusative), etc.

See, for example:

rgveda III.10.1 (Agni)

"tvAm agnE manIshiNaH samrAjam carshaNInAm dEvam martAsa indhatE samadhvarE"

rgveda VIII.19.32 (Agni)

"tam Aganma sobharayah sahasramuShkam svabhiShTimavasE samrAjam trAsadasyavam"

Just to be 100% clear on this, the declension of samrAj for the first three cases:

samrAT-samrAjau-samrAjah
samrAjam-samrAjau-samrAjah
samrAjA-samrADbhyAm-samrADbhih

There is no dvitIya 'samrADham' at all.

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 28 Jul 2007, 09:20

cmlover wrote:Note that
tArANam means the act of crossing. When you want say somebody (an agent) helps to cross you use 'tAraka'.
Hence you should be using
maraNajananabhavAbdhitArakam |
meaning one who helps to cross the ocean of birth and death!

CML,

We've had this discussion before. Using tAraNam is perfectly admissible as an epithet. It is well known that such a compound can be used as a characteristic (or epithet) of its subject. The Sanskrit language is much more complex than you are suggesting. For example, I can name a person "duritanivAraNa" as an epithet. This is just as good as naming the person "duritanivAraka" using the suffix -ka to denote an agent of action.

Also note, taraNa is the act of crossing, not tAraNa (which is the act of helping to cross). Also, tAraNa can be used as a noun to mean a boat (which helps to cross). I have used tAraka also in other compositions.

SR

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Jul 2007, 21:36

SR

You are right on both counts. My search of ashtAdhyAyi was incomplete. Also there are lots of nooks and corners in the sanskrit language!

Thanks

Await your audio now!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 29 Jul 2007, 11:30

The audio of "muttusvaminam" is uploaded (post #459).

SR

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Jul 2007, 20:32

Thanks for posting the song, SR. You have rendered it with such feeling (not surprising, knowing that MD is your hero). Impressive composition.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 30 Jul 2007, 00:40

Very nice kriti indeed Sangeetrasika! Really a majestic composition befitting the sangIta sAmrAT.

-Ramakriya

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 30 Jul 2007, 10:11

Arasi, Ramakriya,

Thanks. I am sure others can sing it better than me !

One of the criticisms of MD compositions is that they proceed at a "laborious" pace. The pallavi/anupallavi of this krti follows the typical stately pace of MD compositions. In the charanam I have given some more "propulsion" by use of a larger number of syllables in each line. This allows the use of interesting variations like 3-3-2 or 3-3-1-1 and combinations thereof for distributing the syllables in the 8 matras of tala (instead of the usual 4-4 or 4-2-2 or combinations thereof that MD uses in his vilambit adi tala). Shyama Shastri was an expert at this type of tricks.

The mrdangist could have much fun with this instead of the usual "theka"!

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 30 Jul 2007, 10:19

cmlover wrote:Also there are lots of nooks and corners in the sanskrit language!

CML, you are right. Indeed most grammatical rules, even in Sanskrit, have exceptions !

SR

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 30 Jul 2007, 11:02

Very well sung, Sangeet Rasik. Please do follow up with your bEgaDA composition.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 30 Jul 2007, 19:46

SR
A commendable achievement. Let me elaborate. The sAhityam was indeed complex replete with jaw-breaking bahuvrIhis. Take for example:
shirE sthApita shirastha, shiva ca shakti sivashakti, tAbhyAm pUrita cakram, tasmin sthita shirasthashivashaktimayacakrasthita muttusvAmI tam. (are you still there

You have beaten MD in the complexity of construction which one encounters only in gadya, not in musical compositions! I was indeed wondering how it will workout while singing. At first I was trying to capture the lyrics while singing and got completely lost. Then I shut my mind and focussed only on the music which indeed flowed like molasses (I bet you sang 2 kaLai chowkka kaalam) blending with shubhapantuvarALi which is a majestic rAga. It is uusually said the MD's compositions are like nALIkEram (cocoanut) which has to be broken to get at the juicy pith, while I would venture to say that SR's composition are like 'ashmanALIkEram' (stony cocoanut) which one has to chisel through to get at the juicy pulp

sAdhu! sAdhu! shubhapantuvarALishirasthashivashaktimayacakrasthitamuttusvAmigItanAyaka

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 30 Jul 2007, 22:15

SR,
A great composition presented in great style.
I was initially wondering about Subhapantuvarali in praise of MD. I have known this rAga as one invoking extreme sadness.
It did change my view now.

cmlover wrote:shubhapantuvarALishirasthashivashaktimayacakrasthitamuttusvAmigItanAyaka[/b]

CML, is this the longest word in Sanskrit?

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 01 Aug 2007, 08:08

Thanks Prashant, CML, and Suji Ram ! Again, I appreciate the attention of the discerning rasiks of CMF.

Prashant,

Yes, I will follow up with the begada composition in the near future. Meanwhile I will post some other compositions on various subjects.

CML,

Thanks for the detailed comments on the sahitya. Actually I find the composition easy to render either in 1 or 2 'kaLais'. Especially in the charanam, the exact placement of the syllables is critical for achieving the desired effect, so 2 kaLai may be useful for more accurately metering the rendition.

I would venture to say that SR's composition are like 'ashmanALIkEram' (stony cocoanut) which one has to chisel through to get at the juicy pulp

Are you trying to scare away any remaining enthusiasts ?

Yes, you are right the complexity of the compound constructions is increased in the charanam. Instead of adding more words I thought it was better to use longer and more meaningful compound words. In this case, the objective was to experiment with Shyama Shastri-like "tricks" which create the illusion of faster tempo while not really changing the pace of the tala.

The discussion on "maNDUka" with VGV and ksrimech has brought up some uncertainty in the sahitya of the MD krti "shrisundararajam bhajeham" in kasiramakriya (kamavardhani) - please check the previous posts in this thread. In particular it is not clear to me (based on the sahitya I have learned and also those posted by ksrimech) whether he is referring to one mANDUka or a more general class of mANDUkas. Pray check any other source of MD krti sahityas you have available and apply your formidable "samAsa-vigraha" skills to shed more light on this matter !

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 19 Jan 2008, 10:51

Here is a "religious" composition for a change - specifically, a composition on Shasta (Ayyappan). I am using this thread to post my compositions, even if they are not strictly on "contemporary themes". The audio will be posted soon.

Best Wishes,
Sangeet Rasik

â€œmAmava maNikaNTha prabhOâ€

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Jan 2008, 23:04

Very well done and appropriate timing! You have incorporated nice puranic/historic details. Just one point; as I understand in sambhOdhana ^RikaarAtam just become a visargam (though the visargam is a rabbai). Hence in sambhOdhana it will be SAstaH and not SAstar! (as is also the case with other ^RikArAnta therein).

Very interesting to note that the Lord of kaLarippayiRRu is SAstA Himself.

Await your nice rendition! And congratulations for your return with such a beautiful composition. Happy new year to you and all the best!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 20 Jan 2008, 03:58

CML,

Thanks for your comments, and a (very belated) Happy New Year to you and all rasiks here.

The recording of "mamava manikantha" is posted. As usual, the disclaimer : I am sure others can sing it better than me !

As usual, I commend you for going straight to the more subtle points in the sahitya.

Indeed the vocative ending for nouns ending in -R is properly -aH. However, note the special sandhi rules for the vocative singular of -R nouns. Specifically, the -aH reverts to -ar when it represents the vocative singular of nouns ending in -R (see, e.g. A Sanskrit Grammar for Students by Macdonell, section 46 where this is specially discussed; or Manual of Sanskrit Phonetics by Uhlenbeck, p. 107 for a similar discussion). Thus, e.g. 'bhrAtaH + dEhi = 'bhrAtar dehi' However, if the -aH is followed by a guttural or other hard consonant then it remains as -aH (e.g., 'punah karoti').

In the present composition, I believe vocative -kartaH and -dAtaH should certainly revert to -kartar and -dAtar since they are followed by soft voiced consonants (na and ma respectively). I agree vocative SAstah should likely remain as such since it is followed by a sibilant (Sa). I have changed it now. Sorry for the confusion.

Yes, Shasta is considered one of the patron deities of kalaripayatt, especially in the thekkan (southern Kerala) form. In the composition, I also departed from the use of "hari" and "hara" which is a staple of Shasta compositions, and used different words that also give interesting "yamaka" effects (e.g. repetition of the same consonant).

SR

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Jan 2008, 08:48

Thanks that was well melodiously executed.
Nice to know about your parental background. Shasta is the family deity from my maternal side!
Was vaava not a muslim; and historically/puranically how can we account for his association with hariharaputra since the events took place during the k^Rita yuga?

I know fully well the sandhi rules. But note that sambhOdhana forms are designated as prag^Rihya by PANini which do not participate in sandhi, which is why I commented!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Jan 2008, 11:14

Are we missing a page here? I came back to this thread wanting to look at the SR's song posted yesterday (?) and the rest. I only see posts from last year here...

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 20 Jan 2008, 22:42

CML,

cmlover wrote:Was vaava not a muslim; and historically/puranically how can we account for his association with hariharaputra since the events took place during the k^Rita yuga?

Yes, indeed. These are part of the "sthalapuranas" which freely cross the line between fact and fantasy. It is not known exactly when Shasta became elevated to the status of a god and "lore" was constructed around his persona. It seems to me the same pattern as Rama and Krishna - martial heroes elevated to gods by puranic legend-building.

On a more historical note, there is some argument that the Shabarimala complex was previously a Buddhist temple, and the Pandyan immigrants of that time and place were also Buddhists. Note that I smuggled in the terms 'nirvana' and 'dharma' just in case someone has a complaint !

I know fully well the sandhi rules. But note that sambhOdhana forms are designated as prag^Rihya by PANini which do not participate in sandhi, which is why I commented!

Yes, you are perfectly correct - the Indian grammarians did not consider the sambodhana (vocative) as one of the noun cases at all. I just wanted to point out that the sambodhana of -R nouns is an exception to this situation and thus merited special discussion by the modern grammarians.

Arasi,

I had the same problem yesterday. I viewed CML's reply but the entire page disappeared before I could make this post. Looks like it is back now.

SR

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Jan 2008, 23:49

Yes indeed SR
The buddhist smear is abundant in many ancient temples. One does not know whether existing Hindu temples were transfromed into buddhist viharaas and then transformed back! In the North most Hindu Temples did become mosques historically! My sneaking suspicion was that Sabari mala also participated in that transformation to be moorphed back. I did notice the absence of hari and hara as well as use of nirvANa. Sasta is referenced in skanda puranam as well as devi mahatmyam and probably was a vedic deity though does not occur in Rig veda! I believe the word is derived from the SAs dhatu (to teach) rather than Sas (to kill) whence the association with weapons may not be appropriate. Is there a connection between SastA and veerabhadra (dakSha yAga)?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Jan 2008, 01:21

SR, Arasi: Here is my ( pure) speculation on missing pages. It is all Maya

If you click on New Posts,it will put you in the previous page where new posts ( for you ) started. That some times cause confusion since the latest posts are on the next page. or, it was a race condition, you actually saw there were only X pages when you saw the page count, but someone posted at around the same time whcih caused it to go the next page. Of course, these are all speculation on my part, these could have been due to forum software malfunction as well.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 21 Jan 2008, 06:02

cmlover wrote:My sneaking suspicion was that Sabari mala also participated in that transformation to be moorphed back.

Quite likely. Same thing going on in other regions. Angkor Wat is the grandest Hindu temple complex in the world, now converted to a Buddhist temple.

Sasta is referenced in skanda puranam as well as devi mahatmyam and probably was a vedic deity though does not occur in Rig veda! I believe the word is derived from the SAs dhatu (to teach) rather than Sas (to kill) whence the association with weapons may not be appropriate.

It is certainly true that Dharmashasta (as He is referred to) is a "teacher of dharma", but that does not render association with weapons inappropriate. Shasta is much revered by martial arts practitioners in Kerala for his martial prowess. In the present composition, "SastraSAstrAdhISa" simply reflects this fact.

That aside, there is some debate on whether the roots SAs and Sas have a common origin. If the Indology chaps are to be believed, back in the distant past the Sanskrit speakers were nomads and hunters, in which case "teaching" and "killing" were pretty much one and the same thing !

In fact there is one Sudhir Birodkar who claimed a few years ago that the word "SAstrI" (usually refers to a learned brahman) is derived from "Sastra" (weapons) and not "SAstra" (science/scripture). He claims this is traced to the era when brahmans and kshatriyas were one and the same. I think the derivation of SAstrI from Sas is a little doubtful if one follows Paninian grammar, but many exceptions can arise dating back from pre-Panini times.

Is there a connection between SastA and veerabhadra (dakSha yAga)?

Could be. I do not know the geographical origin of the Dakshayaga-related puranas.

SR

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Jan 2008, 07:41

VK,
Among your other remarkable qualities, you have the ability to explain away something like the Maya theory .Of course, I wouldn't comprehend much of it

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 21 Jan 2008, 17:19

Was vaava not a muslim; and historically/puranically how can we account for his association with hariharaputra since the events took place during the k^Rita yuga?

One explanation I was given was that "Ayyapan" is an incarnation of Hariharasuthan and it is said to be the only incarnation to have happened in Kaliyuga and hence the power of the deity.

Of course as SR said the sthalapurnas freely cross line between fact and fantasy.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 21 Jan 2008, 20:33

Correct. The composition is on Manikanthan who is the incarnated form of dharmashasta.

SR

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 21 Jan 2008, 20:55

Arasi,

mAyA mahA ThagnI huM jAnI ||

tirgun phAns liyE kar DolE
bolE madhurI bAnI ||

kEzav kE kamlA vE baiThI
ziv kI bhavan bhavAnI |
paNDA kE mUrat vE baiThI
tIrath mE bhayI pAnI ||

yOgI kE YOgin vE baiThI
rAjA kE ghar rAnI |
kAhU kE hIrA vE baiThI
kAhU kE kauDI kAnI ||

bhagatan kE bhagatin vE baiThI
brahmA kE brahmANI |
kahE kabIr sunO bhayI sAdhO
yah sab akath kahAnI ||

I Have Come to Know the Illusory Power to be a Great Thug ||

Her Hands Sway Holding a Web-like Trap
She Speaks in a Sweet Voice ||

For Kesava, the Sustainer, She is Seated as the embodiment of Abundance
For Shiva, the God of Dissolution, She is the empress of the Worlds ||
For the Priest She is Seated as the Idol of Worship
And in Places of Pilgrimage She Manifests as the Holy Water ||

For Yogis She is Seated as the Spiritual Partner
In the Kingâ€™s Palace She is the Queen ||
For Some She is Seated as a Priceless Diamond
For Some She is a Mere Penny ||

For Devotees She is Seated in the Object of Devotion
For Brahma She is His Consort ||
Says Kabir Listen Oh Practicing Aspirant
All this is an Untold Story ||

For Songs of Kabir - http://www.indianest.com/kabir/dohas/kd15.htm

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Jan 2008, 21:44

Well done SR! Both meaning and music -wise this is a fine composition. Perhaps you should send it to KJY to be sung by him!
What is the malayalam derivation for the word 'ayyappa' ?
Do you have any info about the association of pUrNa and puShkala with Sasta?
There is no doubt about his warrior quality as is evident from the common epithet 'veeramaNikaNTha thouugh unfortunately the name 'veeramaNi' is abused by totally unfit persons

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Jan 2008, 00:01

Thanks for the 'real' (:)) mAyA --Kabir's song. Awesome!
I was merely referring to mAyA of a simpler kind which VK talked about. Even that is beyond me...

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 22 Jan 2008, 04:44

Thanks, CML and others for the attention to this composition. Here are links you might find interesting:

http://www.ayyappanthiyyattu.com/FAQ.htm
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Ayyappa/id/420066

SR

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 29 Jan 2008, 11:52

Couls someone re-upload the hindOLa piece? I cannot access it.