The conscious and superconscious states in Carnatic Music

Suryaprakash · Post by **Suryaprakash** » 10 Aug 2007, 03:49

For a long time I was engaged in a big search;searching what must have been the ideal state of mind to present timeless music, particularly Raga alapana.I write this paragraph from my personal experience and also the inputs I have got by personally interacting with some of the Great Gurus regarding the Music unheard (atleast by me, live):

As a Classical Musician, to be "Conscious" is one state of mind, to be precise, being conscious of Classicism, always wary of any cheap sangathi creeping into our rendition,having firm conviction and principles with respect to what is Classicism and what is not, and fully aware of our limitation in voice, manodharma on a particular day and tailoring our presentation so that failures are minimised. Great Masters used to describe this state as "Therinju paadaradhu..."i.e, being fully aware of each and every sangathi, even as we present manodharma. The path to such a Classically conscious state can be traced as follows : starting off in the right Classical atmosphere, learning even the rudiments under a Guru who hails from a well respected baani, always adding to our repertoire of kritis in any particular raga, learning rare kritis, listening to only the styles which we mentally accept as Classically "madi" and "gamaka shuddham"..infact, always listening to such styles and keeping our mind focussed and disciplined to present a Carnatic Music Concert with exemplary Classicism.

There is another state which is "Super-conscious state" or "Super-unconscious state" of mind which just happens, like yoga. It has got very little to do with aspects like patanthra of kritis, being always aware of the sangathis or even having firm convictions/principles on what is Classicism, discipline etc. This superconscious state needs only a blank and adventurous (even careless) mind of a performer who has natural grounding in a very high order of Classical Music from a very early age. for example, while singing a raga alapana, what if in a phase suddenly the phrases that strike the very core of the raga swaroopa emanate unconsciously? Each phrase distinct from the other but complete by itself; containing gamaka, jaaru, brigha, kaarvai and other forms of embellishments, all naturally arranged without any awareness or contrived innovation! Like flashes of lightning! All the ideas Classically, logically, aesthetically monumental...yet at the same time, fresh and Brand New! The perfect sruti alignment and the life-force of Naadha blending together naturally along with the pinnacle of manodharma, creating a timeless feeling in the mind of the listener making him proclaim "this is music!!! this IS music!!!!...."

Such superconscious state was exhibited regularly by S/Shri. Maharajapuram Viswanatha Iyer, T N Rajarathnam Pillai and T R Mahalingam. That's why we look up to them and call them "genius". The super-conscious phase of their singing has earned them immortality and rasikas totally accepted whatever was comparitively ordinary in their remaining phase of sangeetham, giving that allowance to their pangs of agony to reach up that mental state.

This state was said to be exhibited by S/Shri. Madurai Mani Iyer (especially during his forays in the region of tara sthayi gandharam in Kambhoji) and Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer (while rendering ragas like Suruti, suddenly out of the blue), on select occasions.

Those concerts generally pass unrecorded and vanish into thin air, but stay eternally in the minds of rasikas who have had the good fortune of witnessing the unconscious, happen.

This artiste humbly states that he has also very rarely experienced that super(un)conscious state of mind on a few concerts during a particular phase of singing a raga alapana. The occasion was typically a far off open-air temple concert where the sound equipment was probably from the Stone Age! However much I tried, this state of mind has been difficult to achieve in regular kutcheri, especially while singing in acoustically posh auditoriums with the best of sound systems!! Nevertheless, I remember that on every one of those special occasions, this state of mind for a brief duration had energised this singer so much that for the following two or three days, every second the mind had soared with a feeling of "blissful aanandam" fully afresh even without a wink of sleep! ...and fully liberated from any thought process.

Probably samples of what those Immortal Masters must have experienced after each and every concert!

- Surya

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Aug 2007, 04:26

Welcome Suryaprakash for starting a discussion with us on a topic which has ramifications in multiple fields: Science, Religion, Philosophy and Fine Arts. We do have members who are specialists in a number of those areas and a fertile discussion will enhance the understanding of all which will incidentally personally benefit you in your CM career in pursuit of excellence and ultimately we Rasikas are the beneficiaries.

Now I need to retire and think deeply about what you have succintly stated, to collect and capture and organize my ideas on that elusive phenomenon called INSPIRATION.

Let the discussions continue..

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Aug 2007, 06:35

Suryaprakash,
Great that you are sharing your thoughts and musical experiences with us.

CML,
Waiting for you to come back with your thoughts and ideas...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Aug 2007, 07:28

Perhaps I could start with some generic comments without using 'technical' terms. Patently 'conscousness' is of three kinds: unconscious (this is different from what you have defined; simply the torpor state which is of no practical value!); conscious ( normal state of being aware of the environment)and the superconscious (where one is selfaware but is under the control of inexplicable mysterious forces (not necessarily divine since drug/alcohol induced state is also one such). We need to concern only with the later two drom the point of artistic creativity. In passing I should also count in the subconscious (which is the repository of all our experiences and thoughts and which forms the basis of all conscious and superconscious cogitations). For simplicity let me denote the two relevant states as C(Conscious) and S(Superconscious).
Now we also have to add the additional dimension of the "sender" (the performer denoted by P) and the "receiver" (the Rasika denoted by "R"). Hence simplistically we have four states to consider viz., CP-CR ( where both are in the conscious state), CP-SR, SP-CR and SP-SR.

Usually the Rasikas will be in the CR state since they are conscious of domestic problems, time constraints etc., and will move on to the SR state by the Performer inducing them into a 'reverie' through his skills. The Performer himself can be in CP or SP state. (The classic example is MDR who travels in his own world all the time and succeeds (not all the time

in taking the Rasikas to SR state. On the other hand Santanam who always watches for the Rasika reaction and consciously induces them to ecstasy using the right kind of music). Parenthetically kindly note that the examples that I use are only illustrative and not points for debate, digression or controversy.

I may even add that the Performer also will be usually in the CR state due to time constraints, watching audience reaction (now-a-days many performers request the lights to be turned on so that they can look at audience reactions to 'tune' their performance etc.,). Thus CP-CR is the most common concert experience. That however is not the subject of discussion here (we can do it elsewhere if you like.

Now let us focus on SP-CR. Let me pause here to hear comments from other members regarding the logic and drift of my analysis. Arasi/others your turn...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Aug 2007, 08:10

I will save my questions for later and focus on what you have specified: SP-CR. For convenience sake, let us assume the SP is a vocalist, but an audience can only consist of a group of rasikAs. One rasikA is CR sometimes and SR at other times. The same can be said of other rasikAs too. While it does not matter much in what state other rasikAs are--but for very distracting nearby arasikAs--it does have an impact on the performer and influences his state of being CP or SP, I think, unless he is an MDR (your example) who is mainly SP...

maniomani · Post by **maniomani** » 10 Aug 2007, 10:15

These states referred to are applicable only to musicians who are not yet gained the capacity to be absorbed in their music and have an eye on public appeal. A musician who had spent years in exploring the depths of the ragas has no need to remind himself of classicism. Music comes to him like mother tongue where there is no need to remind oneself of the grammer. In the 1950s and 60 there were many artists who got immersed in their exposition of the ragas and even forgot time. Musicians like Mysore Vasudevacharya , Tiger Varadachariar, Karakudi sambasiva Iyer, Rajaratnam must have been of this type. I have heard Jayamma, Bala saraswati, Viswanathan who were very emotionally involved with the ragas. Dwaram and Veena Balachandar appeared to me of this type. They never played for the audience. Many Hindustani musicians usualy get absorbed into the music. Omkarnath Thakur, Bade Gulam Ali Khan, Ali Akbar Khan, Vilayat Khan, Bhimsen Joshi are all of this type. The had no need to follow rules. Ragas danced to their dictates.

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 10 Aug 2007, 11:27

Suryaprakash sir,
A very though-provoking and emotive post.
I myself have had the same experience while listening to mahavidwans like SSI, DKJ, Ramnad Krishnan, Voleti, Pt.Chaurasia and others. Such experiences are indeed blissful and I guess only if the singer himself/herself experiences it, can he/she share it with the audience. Therein lies the true spirit of cm.
Again, thanks for starting this thread.
-bhaktha

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 10 Aug 2007, 15:58

cml,
Your classification of CP and SP is tenable because it refers to one and only individual -the performer; on the other hand CR and SR are not tenable because no group can be clubbed into a single state. Applause of audience does not mean every one in the audience participates.

Musical performance is not mesmerism. Even in mesmerism, one who would not accept suggestion cannot be mesmerised. Taking an average of audience is like the proverbial Maths teacher (not knowing swimming) crossing river by finding out average depth of water.

I heartily welcome the write-up of Surya prakash - It is heartening to know that at least there are a few purists who dare to venture beyond laid down conventions of the straight-jacket called 'concert'.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 10 Aug 2007, 18:20

Suryaprakash,

Excellent topic. My initial comments:

I believe classical training and classicism serve as the bridge to the "superconscious" state. A fully absorbed musician sings music that has both "timely" and "timeless" elements. Both have their place.

Question for you - in your experience/opinion, is the occurrence of the "superconscious" state restricted to manodharma periods, or has it/could it occur when singing a pre-composed krti ?

Best Wishes,
Sangeet Rasik

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 10 Aug 2007, 20:01

Nevertheless, I remember that on every one of those special occasions, this state of mind for a brief duration had energised this singer so much that for the following two or three days, every second the mind had soared with a feeling of "blissful aanandam" fully afresh even without a wink of sleep! ...and fully liberated from any thought process.

If a musician in such a state of mind, is to go through the routine of a 'concert', he cannot be put his best. In any case, the traditional kutcheri format is such the artist is expected to put on too many roles within a short span of 2 to 3 hours, which is indeed very demanding. Therefore, what ultimately results is, - what is called in tamil 'nunippul mEydal' நுனிப்புல் மேய்தல் - not to get too deeply involved in a single mood. And, ultimately, neither the musician has the satisfaction nor the audience.

Why not let the musician decide as to what he wants to present and go by his mood and, in the bargain, bring out the best of him? A good and earnest artist will improve his performance over a period of time if he has liberty to choose his mood. In this method, it would be possible to segregate serious artists from amateurs.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Aug 2007, 22:59

Govindan,
Your points are well worth dwelling on. A worthy musician is one who has a serious involvement with his music. It absorbs him. On the other hand--as you say--it would be a hinderance to bring that state of mind to the concert hall. His 'professionalism' as a performer is essential for him when he is on that stage. The concert would only get enhanced by the totality of his experience with music which he does not leave behind at home! It is always a part of him. Other features like good accompanists and rasikAs (not necessarily fans, but lovers of good music) take the performance to greater heights...

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 11 Aug 2007, 01:14

Charlie Parker is reported to have said:

"Master your instrument, master the music, and then forget all that bullshit and just play"!

I think he was suggesting this same super-conscious state.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Aug 2007, 01:29

Discussion is going quite good. VGV has a good point but it may not be all true for SP who loses himself as well as the audience under the 'inspitarion'. I certainly would like to hear from Suryaprakash if ever he had that experience and the circumstances.

One other thing I wish to add is that inpite of being in SP or not a topclass physical condition is a must for a great performance. As goes the saying "nIraLavE AkumAM nIrAmbal" (the (lovely) flower cannot rise beyond the (limiting)water level !

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Aug 2007, 01:59

CML,
Allow me to play around with that quote: nIraLavE AgumAm (AgikkoLLuM) nIrAmbal--the water lily has the capacity to raise itself to the height of the water level! A distinguished musician delivers, no matter the conditions--bad throat, sponsor blunders, travel mishaps--all happening on the day of the performance. That is when the professional in him rises to the occasion and lets his strength from his years of union with music do the job. He gets Zen about it. Charlie Parker says the same thing, though expressing it differently.
On the other hand, too professional a performer, overly looking out for audience reaction, often gazing at the door for comings and goings, adjusting his concert dress, fiddling with the mike and sending frequent signals to the sound man does not win either, however fine his voice is that day. How much of a SP would he be in that concert? The point is, a performer has to find the delicate balance in him (strictly in reference when he is performing for an audience). If he does not, and wants only to impress rasikAs with his mastery, he has lost it because he is a CP then to the extreme. It is like salting a dish. Without salt, a dish simply is not tasty (concert awareness). A pinch more ruins the dish...

Suryaprakash · Post by **Suryaprakash** » 11 Aug 2007, 12:53

Both "consciousness" and "super-consciousness" that I have mentioned define the states of mind of fully evolved artists who are far above things like frequently adjusting the dress, gazing at the exit, always being oriented towards audience response etc.

"Conscious" refers to being fully aware of one's own creative music and "super-conscious" refers to being an innocent vehicle, which transmits ethereal music that simply flows like a waterfall.

The experience that I referred to is specific to manodharma music. While presenting already composed music, one is always "conscious" and "aware" that he/she must do justice to its Sahitya , Raga and Rasa bhaavas as advocated by the composer.

Talking about physical condition, I wish to add that the Super-conscious state is the zenith of physical and mental health for both the concert performer and the audience.

It is a pleasure to be discussing this with you all.

Yours musically

Surya

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 11 Aug 2007, 14:50

Very enlightening Suryaprakash sir! Especially in our music training of the super-conscioosness is the key to good music. As you say, being able to tell good music from bad is in itself a challenging task for the aspiring musician!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Aug 2007, 19:09

Very good!
We can now ignore discussion on other factors and just focus on 'manodharma sangeetham'. We Rasikas immensely enjoy this aspect but the responsibility rests fair and square on the Performer. He is the 'driver' and we enjoy the 'panorama' he is diving us through. The 'essence' of creativity resides on the fertile imagination of the Performer. I am aware of Performers (some very great, pardon me for not naming) who painfully memorise the patterns and reproduce them everytime. The very first time you hear them you get blown away (driven to the S state) but then it becomes so repetetive (you know what is coming) and positively drab! In my younger days when recordings were not common (not even possible!) we used to beg the 'Performer' to recreate those patterns and some of the 'Greats' (SSI, CVB..) used to oblige. Not now-a-days of course when we all wait with our 'ipods' to capture the stellar moments. We cannot expect 'you' to produce a stellar pattern everytime and of course the standard (memorized) patterns do still have an appeal of fulfilling expectaions. Just for example, as 'you' do the aalaapana we vie with each other to guess the kirtanai and the thrill of the one who guesses right is indeed ineffable. But if you are in the realm of Supeconsciousness then you may create even something out of the ordinary from the trite kriti when it becomes a moment of a lifetime for us to cherish.

I remember one such moment when CVB launched on a svaraprasthaaram (in kharahaapriya) and suddenly the audience of a few thousands became all quiet. Even PMI who was accompanying stopped playing, watched awe-struck (but rajamanickam pillay kept playing to maintain the melody). There was a divine glow in CVB's face who apparently was not aware of his surroundings; but finally when he came down to 'earth' he knew what happened and just exclaimed 'Guruvayoorappa'. It took a few more seconds for the audience to land on earth and to applaud which indeed shook the Temple Hall to its foundation!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 11 Aug 2007, 20:17

CML/Suryaprakash,

The more I think about this and read your comments, it seems to me that the super-conscious state under discussion could also be interpreted as brief periods of heightened creativity wherein all the cylinders are firing simultaneously. The euphoria/satisfaction after such a period could linger on in the brain/mind and can be assigned to divine factors if one is a religious person.

Suryaprakash (SP) mentioned that during this stage, all the usually "premeditated
devices" appear to fall in place effortlessly. But the very fact that they are present means there is some link to the part of one's mind where that knowledge is stored from previous experience and use. In other words, all the korvais and jarus and layakari could not fall into place if the performer had no past knowledge of them in any form. So in some sense, could these be described essentially as moments of creative use of knowledge, that are often stifled by all the stressful aspects of giving public performances ? SP also says that such periods often occur during "offbeat" concerts, which might have the effect of reducing stress levels and allow these creative factors to have a better chance of coming together.

Also, what about the effect of substances such as alcohol and drugs ? I would assume that even small or moderate consumption of such substances make the mind relatively less influenced by stressful factors (at least temporarily) and thus potentially more 'receptive' of going into the superconscious state. I understand that some prominent musicians were/are known to consume some alcohol before a performance. No names mentioned.

SR

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Aug 2007, 20:36

Folks
In the interest of keeping 'clean' let us not mention any names associated with substance abuse or alcoholism. However discussion of the role of 'alternative means of attainment' of Superconsciousness from a technical/scientic/clinical point of view is not taboo!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 11 Aug 2007, 20:44

cmlover wrote:Folks
In the interest of keeping 'clean' let us not mention any names associated with substance abuse or alcoholism. However discussion of the role of 'alternative means of attainment' of Superconsciousness from a technical/scientic/clinical point of view is not taboo!

CML,

Point taken - probably best not to mention anyone by name. I have edited my post.

SR

gayathrivenkataraghavan · Post by **gayathrivenkataraghavan** » 11 Aug 2007, 21:03

Suryaprakash sir this is an amazing thread that you have been conscious to start..You have put together a thought that is very very difficult to express and even more elusive to experience.
They flash upon my inward eye which is the bliss of Solitude said wordsworthâ€¦Could this paramanandam that we derive out of listening to Suswara or Nada be put into mere words it can only flash upon our inward eye.

I however beg to differ in that I think I have dwelt in this SC stage even with sahithya in mind ofcourse (such a moment can only be very brief when performing)..When we hear KVN mamaâ€™s Varugalamo, that there is sahithyam does not seem to matter..Yes as a singer mama probably was conscious that he should not fall into the SC stage while singing sahithya but then a rasika has no such problem..I am sure we all have such experiences while taking in Devibrova by MS amma..Similarly when we hear a
Tani avartanam sometimes the sheer nada can lift us to Himalyan heights..

Is it the same state that the Flute Maestro Sri Mali often indulged in..
Here is an extract from a column by Ms.Anita Nair that always stayed in my mind.

Ever so often, I think of that brush with Flute Mali. What I came away with that morning was to later fashion my own understanding of artistic integrity. Of finding that perfect balance with oneâ€™s art. An instinctive understanding where you know at that point in time, you have been at your best. Thereafter what does it matter how the world perceives you or your art?

It has become legendary, the way Mali plays truant at his concerts. Later his chief disciple Sundaram explains, â€œMali says he sees god within five minutes of playing â€” he thinks it is meaningless to continue after that and stops.

http://www.newindpress.com/sunday/colIt ... 0601054348

The question is, at that level can an artist just remain a performer..?

There is a trap in this SC state as a rasika or as a performer in that once we experience this state and then, when we do not reach the SC level in a particular performance or a series of concerts, it leaves you disappointed and with a feeling of wastefulness, in that however well we may have performed or however well the artist has performed we have not been able to re-invent that precious moment ,the one second of Nadanubhava..It is a void.

Again is it possible for an artist to do it in every performance..Well then it loses itâ€™s elusive quality then and there, if it was just merely reproducible...

I think it is remarkable that we are discussing such a Super Conscious topic thanks to Sri.Suryaprakashâ€™s initiative.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 11 Aug 2007, 21:29

Has this got anything do with "getting into a zone"? When I watch Brian Lara (in full form) or Roger Federer (on most occasions) they seem to be in a zone where they pull off some incredible shots that others can only dream of. At that time, the mind takes a backseat. It's the body that does all the work. You are really not thinking of anything, everything just seems to flow. Infact, in another book that I had read, this whole experience is called Flow and the book goes on to conclude that happiness in life is determined by how often you have been in those moments of Flow.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Aug 2007, 21:41

Tani avartanam sometimes the sheer nada can lift us to Himalyan heights..

Thanks gayathrivenkataraghavan
for that extra dimension. From the Rasika point of you it is not just the melody but equally the laya can induce SR state. I immensely enjoy watching the expression on the face of the laya artist as his fingers fly but his mind fixed not on 'kaNakku' but a complex rhythm he is attempting to capture from hyperspace! It is sheer ecstasy!

rrao13 · Post by **rrao13** » 12 Aug 2007, 01:25

Delightful discussion. Excellent start by Shri Suryapraksh and wonderful posting from Ms. Gayathri Venkataraghavan. I dare say, reading these messages itself takes me from a mundane level of consciousness to something more blissful - especially since I have been listening to a Hameer Kalyani krith and right now listening to "Ranganathude-Sowrashtram; Shri Ponniah Pillai - Shri M. Santhanam". while reading these posts. This is as close as I can perhaps get to heaven. Awesome. Truly divine.

Can some rasikas share narratives about this type of feeling they have gotten at some concerts and the trigger points such as a specific krithi or raaga or a combination of such factors....Thanks in advance.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Aug 2007, 01:55

Gayatrivenkataraghavan,
Delighted that you are bringing your own thoughts to us. As CML said, we appreciate your mentioning the layA part of it too. As expert rasikAs analyse and admire layA artistes, even the uninitiated can reach out and share that S moment of the player. How? nAdam and naDai has its own message and the moment does not escape the non-expert rasikA if he is tuned in to it. The same applies to music too. Even a less knowledgeable open minded rasikA partakes of that spell because the performer reached that point and shared it with the audience. It happened partly because of the way the performer wove the AlApanA, combined the swarAs, emoted the words, or whenever in the concert that magical moment occured. While these help a savant savor the music (more?), the joy does not escape other rasikAs. Music and music appreciation in humans were there from the beginning of times. Sophistication and appreciation of finer forms in music came only later.
Good rasikAs know that such magical moments do not happen often. They are not expecting them to occur often, either. When the magic happens, they are happy. They bring their pleasant association with your music when they come and are open in their minds to your performance. As an accomplished performer, you bring your best in knowledge and intentions to the concert. As you start performing, the positive elements in such a relationship does its job. A bad throat or not being well on that day (with an instrumentalist too) can make the concert less sparkling, no doubt. However, if the performer is capable of practising the art of a fine balance between artistry and professionalism, excellence in performance is possible and so also epiphanies...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Aug 2007, 02:36

rrao,
Lovely to feel it, difficult to spell it out...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Aug 2007, 03:31

Very well put arasi...

if the performer is capable of practising the art of a fine balance between artistry and professionalism, excellence in performance is possible and so also epiphanies...

That places S state in the realm of every Performer; not just the chosen greats... It is almost like the awakening of the proverbial 'kuNDalini'. Difficult to say how and when it occurs. But every performer should sincerely believe that he is capable and should 'consciously' strive towards it. Surprisingly the rewards of those moments are greater for the 'lucky' Rasikas than for the Performer himself!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Aug 2007, 12:53

Sangeet Rasik wrote:... ... ... Suryaprakash (SP) mentioned that during this stage, all the usually "premeditated
devices" appear to fall in place effortlessly. But the very fact that they are present means there is some link to the part of one's mind where that knowledge is stored from previous experience and use. In other words, all the korvais and jarus and layakari could not fall into place if the performer had no past knowledge of them in any form.

We cannot talk without our learned vocabulary of words, any more than a musician can play without their learned toolbox of technique, knowledge, repertoire, creativity. These are the tools of expression of the true musical essence.

It is said to occur that persons in trance states can talk in languages they could not know, perhaps even produce music they have not learnt --- but this is mediumship; not musicianship.

There may be areas where the two things come very close, but I do not believe they are the same.

Now that laya has come into the conversation I am reminded that, for the mridangist, every stroke is improvised! Even the sarva laghu can, at times, be really beautiful and inspired.

There are two further phenomena I would like to introduce into the conversation and ask where and how people think that they fit.

The first is so commonplace in our music that, without it, it is simply a bad concert! But there are still times when it seems to reach a peak of achievement that is beyond the normal. This is the ability of three or more people to play, without rehearsal, in complete togetherness and mutual enhancement of the music.

the second, is a skill that is in common with performers of other arts, and one that I number among the skills of the master story teller. They may be 200 people in the audience, but you feel that they are talking to you.

maniomani · Post by **maniomani** » 12 Aug 2007, 16:01

I have some information based on my studies and researches on mind and its functions which might be useful in understanding the super conscious levels.
A fully concentrated mind leads to the SC level. A fully concentrated mind focuses on the matter at hand and does not dwell any other thing. With all the pushes and pulls of the world and its society it is not easy for the mind to fully focus on music while performing. The person is bombarded with thousands of thoughts throughout the day.
Thoughts essentially arise on account of the accumulation of desires and anxieties. More of them, the more disturbed would be his mind. The only solution would be to develop a capacity to keep the mind under control. The normal route is one of self discipline. For a musician it would be longer hours of sadhana and involvement in the raga. The musician who achieves this cruising through the ragas will be childâ€™s play. When I heard some eminent musicians at their creative best it looked to me that they were actually witnessing within their mind the automatic cascading of swaras and getting drowned in them. It appeared they applied no effort !
If the musician gets involved in promoting himself by publicity gimmicks, or in improving relationships with organizers and politicians, or in creating unusual music or worried about family, illness and finances, etc., his mind would not be in a concentrated one during the performance. The only method would be to take intoxicants and brutally subside the mind to a dormant level. Some time the concentration or the SP level is triggered on by the nature of the situation, a prestigious event, or an audience of eminent musicians and knowledgeable audience, or the presence of a deity or a saint.
The other group, the audience, has its own SR experiences may not have any direct connection with the SP level. The rasika is in a better position to reach the SR level because the moment he enters the hall he forgets all his worldly worries in expectation of an SR experience. The SR level in a listener depends on his own mind, not necessarily on the music. If he is highly sensitive and devoted to the deities or the trinity, he might go into SP level irrespective of the quality of the music. The music he listens just acts as a catalyst to release the devotion buried within him. He might go into ecstasy simply on hearing the words Thyagaraja or Shyama Krishna or even when hearing a few lines from his most adored musician. On the other hand there are listeners who continue in their CR level despite SP level of the musician.
But all said and done, it must be conceded that there are some musicians who can almost hypnotise the entire audience from start to finish.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Aug 2007, 21:37

gayathrivenkataraghavan

Your post herein has occurrred right after your concert @ Asthika Samajam, Tiruvanmiyur,5/8/07
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=56271#p56271
If the comments by 'jagan' are no exaggeration it would appear that you did experience SC during the performance. Not just that,

The musical luminosity and emotional intensity which she brought to bear on the Y.Kambhoji Swarajati and the Nattakurinji Mayamma, was so overwhelming that many in the audience felt the presence of Goddess Kamakshi in the hall and with eyes moist,were in a state of transcendental bliss. (At the end of the performance, many actually told her so).

shows evidently a number of Rasikas did participate in the experience.
It will be nice to hear in your own words your 'mood' as well as the circumstances that induced such an experience as well as a great performance.

It will be wondeful for us Rasikas to get an audio of this great performance (with your permission) if you can arrrange. Wish you all the best!
Thank you!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Aug 2007, 22:11

Suryaprakash (SP) mentioned that during this stage, all the usually "premeditated
devices" appear to fall in place effortlessly. But the very fact that they are present means there is some link to the part of one's mind where that knowledge is stored from previous experience and use. In other words, all the korvais and jarus and layakari could not fall into place if the performer had no past knowledge of them in any form. So in some sense, could these be described essentially as moments of creative use of knowledge, that are often stifled by all the stressful aspects of giving public performances ? SP also says that such periods often occur during "offbeat" concerts, which might have the effect of reducing stress levels and allow these creative factors to have a better chance of coming together.

I agree that the less formal concerts has the effect of reducing the stress levels. Also SP mentioned that it is the temple environment where this had happened. So the environment and the audience ( non-judgingly appreciative audience ) together create the right context for this to happen.

Having said that, creativity is hard to understand or explain even if we want to interpret SC state as a heightened creative state. The interesting point is, the person does not even realize that he/she is creating stuff. I have seen this happen in the context of technical discussions. The same concepts which I know very well and have discussed with others numerous times before, in the middle of some other conversation, due to the 'zone I am in', take on a completely different explanatory language much to the surprise of others. The reaction from them is 'I like the way you put it.. Did you just think of that?' Probably so, but at the very moment of saying it, it was not a conscious thing. So the real answer is "I" did not even think of that, which would be an odd answer in a business setting

Here also the environment mattered. If the climate is 'talk only strictly rehearsed stuff because any screw up will have negative consequences', such things will be naturally curbed. ( BTW, this all pales tremendously in comparision with the great artistic scenario that SP and Gayathri talk about from their personal experience ).

The same phenomenon happens with public speakers when they are on a roll. As sbala puts it, they say they are "in the zone" and words come pouring out.

Suryaprakash · Post by **Suryaprakash** » 12 Aug 2007, 22:47

Smt.Gayathri Vankatraghavan ji

I feel very very happy to welcome you to this topic of discussion!

Firstly let me record my heartfelt condolences on the passing away of the Perfect Musician and your guru Shri. A Sundaresan mama. I too had the humble privilege of learning a few gems from Shri.Mama during a summer-course under the auspices of The Music Academy, Chennai. Gems like "Pahi Sri Rama Ramana (athana), Sri Lalithe (bhairavi), Kameswarena (sriragam). Now I am left with an overwhelmingly sad question to the Amighty on behalf of our performing community....Why do Thee beckon in succession, the Mahanubhavaas to whom can we go to and get a constructive and truthfully critical opinion on each of our concerts?

Ok, composing myself.. I really commend your super-awareness to add immense value to this discussion by posting the excellent link on the Flute Maestro Shri T R Mahalingam, certainly an important member of the three superconsketeers (pardon my coinage!) that I have already mentioned in my initial post. (Dear all,...On a side note, my general usage of the term "singing" might give an impression of the vocalist Shri. T R Mahalingam, but hope it is fine to feel that the two of them Shri.TNR and Shri.TRM also "Sang" - through the Nadaswaram and Flute respectively.)

Gayathriji, I fully respect your views on experiencing SC as a listener when the gems of Kritis were being rendered by the legends and also while performing. And yes, the thaniavarthanam is a chapter by itself in taking one to the realms of ecstasy. But I search myself, were there subtle differences on the type of euphoria that each segment induced in my mind as a listener?...

As a listener, I have been taken to goose pimpling "alavillada deiveeka unarchchi" by MS Amma's "Sabhapathikku Veru Deivam", "Mayamma", my Guru Shri.TVS sir's Virutham on Govindan in raga Hamsanandhi. I could feel the very presence of God in the atmosphere.

Tears filled my eyes on listening to KVN mama's "Varugalamo", MS Amma's "Hari Thum Haro" and K B Sundarambal's vocal honesty in her Kambhoji virutham, Madurai Somu Pillaiwal's "Madurai arasalum Meenakshi" and Palghat Mani Iyerwal's entry at "Cheeyanu Ganga" (after being silent from "Chikkani Paalu"- the start of the anupallavi, and the subsequent misra nadai during Semmangudi Mama's recording of his rendition of "Chakkani Raja" in a Music Academy concert"(year I am not aware, but it has Janani Ninnuvina, Sri Subrahmanyaya Namaste etc.)). It was a mixed feeling of "Naadanubhava and spirituality".

I have sobbed uncontrollably on listening to M M Dandapani Desikar's "Vazhimaraithirukkude" in Thodi (Nandanar), MKT's "Annayum Thandayum Thane" in Kapi(Haridas) and MS Amma's "Pannedum Nalai" in Nadanamakriya (Sakunthalai). The feeling could be translated as "kazhivirakkam" in Thamizh (Arasiji, hope I pass muster!)

I have been taken to "emotional ecstacy" while listening to Namasankeerthanam, especially during the phase of the Divyanamam with the conglomeration of vocal, harmonium, tabla, dolki, jaalra etc. reaching the crescendo.

Is there also another mental state where there is blankness(shoonya), not even a thought about the Almighty, brought about by just pure music,sans any clothing...by the spontaneous, unaware, unplanned, non-egoistic manodharma of the evolved musician: which one experiences as a rasika and rarely, as a performer that could be called "super-consciousness", which is different from all the above, if not greater? I jump to add the mridanga Naada to this category, thanks to Smt.Gayathri.

May I suggest that SC has to happen on its own accord and at best, one can create a situation conducive for that? As a performer, I ascend each and every platform, mentally reconciled that SC may not happen at all and so this has no negative effect on my professionalism.

Surya

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Aug 2007, 22:52

Very Good VK for that comparison with 'public speaking. I remeber the glow on Billy Graham in his younger days when the rheteric was inspired and superhuman as though he was in a trance. Perhaps less mundane were those days when I have heard 'aNNathurai' addressing public meetings where the whole audience as it were by magic would be supercharged with 'Tamil fervour' with each of his hot-minted word just searing through their hearts!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Aug 2007, 23:31

Thanks Suryaprakash
for that follow-up listing some of those moments of SC that you experienced. Most of those are familiar to many of us Rasikas. Welcome to our fold as a 'Rasika' in addition to trying to be a SP!
My point is that these effects are not ephemeral. We experience the same heightened perception even if we listen to those moments again and again! Perhaps they induce certain hidden neurons to fire in our system to recreate the moments of experience.

I remember the great moment in kALidAsa's shAkuntaLam (6th Scene) where duShyanta chides his friend for bringing him back from his reverie by pointing out that it was a picture that he was looking at: a great magical scene of SC created by kALidAsa:
vayasya kimidam paurObhAgyam|

darshanasukhamanubhavataH sAkShadiva tanmayEna h^RidayEna |
sm^RitikAriNA tvayA mE punarapi citrIk^RitA kAntA ||
(Friend what wanton mischief!

While I was enjoying the rapture of beholding her (shakuntala) as if she stood before my eyes, with my heart completely wrapped up in her, you have by reviving my memory again transformed my darling into a picture.)

VISHNURAMPRASAD · Post by **VISHNURAMPRASAD** » 13 Aug 2007, 09:43

Dear all,

What a great topic? Am enjoying every post that all of you are sending! I could just see another "Amrutha mathanam" happening here! This shows how much Surya enjoys Sangeetham, besides being a reputed singer.

At this instance I remember Shree Kaanchi MahaPeriaval's upanyasam about music while he interprets the sloka :

Sarigama padhanirathaam thaam... Veenaa sankraantha kaantha hasthaanthaam
Shaanthaam, mridulaswaanthaam... namaami shivakaanthaam.

He says Mahaanubhaavaas like Shri Thyagaraja / Dikshithar / Daasar, who chose the path of Music as the means for Moksha (by constantly avoiding name / fame / money... kYaathi, laabha... pooja...) would have tasted the ultimate state of the Sangeetham that is jeevan mukthi (or saaswatha Shaanthi)

Periavaal consoles mortals like us by saying... even the present day men who are involved in music can have a "GLIMPSE" of that Aanandam that the great mahaans got through Sangeetham, like how a seller of Nectar ("Thaen" as in tamil) when he tastes his own hand after selling it.... (Thenai virpavan purangaiyai suvaippadhu pola)

If every musician feels the glimpse and enjoys it everyday at home while singing for himself, he will attain poorna shaantham in due course and that will reflect in his outward character. One such soul in the recent past was Pudukkottai Shri Gopalakrishna Bhagavathar, who lived as a detached soul, who chose to sing / sing and only sing, without any external affairs, like family, society, awards, accolades affecting him. It is amazing to note that he has never hurted a fellow living being even once in his life, in turn he gave them peace of mind by singing for them. Sangeetham can lead one to such purified state. Enjoy grinding the Music Paarkadal!

Warm Regards,
Vishnu

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 13 Aug 2007, 10:50

prasad,
Do you mean 'Pudukkottai Gopalakrishna Bhagavatar'?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 13 Aug 2007, 11:12

As a rasika I remember some rare occassions when I have walked into an auditorium in the middle of a concert and immediately sensed a magic present in the hall. I still remember a veena duet by Padmavathi Ananthagopalan and Jayanthi Kumaresh and Tiruvarur Vaidyanathan at the TTD auditorium almost 10 years ago - And when I walked in, it was as if the hall was floating a few feet above the ground. More recently Amritha Murali singing Kamakshi in Varali at Parthasarathy Sabha during the 2006 Dec season. Somehow you forget all technical aspects and feel almost guilty intruding! You steal a look at some others in the hall and they seem quite contented reading "Thuklak".

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 13 Aug 2007, 14:19

Some good information on Flow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

If anybody is interested, there is a good book that I had read on this subject called
Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience by Csikszentmihalyi, Mihaly.

I can lend my copy to those based in Chennai if you promise to return it

nyayam · Post by **nyayam** » 13 Aug 2007, 14:29

An interesting topic from a performing artiste, both as a rasika and a performer on the stage.

There is one other dimension to this issue of rasika enjoyment.â€¦. The loftiness of the kriti.. the emotional ecstasy of the composer crystallized into a sahitya.. Even a mere non-intrusive music may make the rasika delve into the loftiness of the creation and kindle in him intense rasanubhava.

While SP talks of superconsciousness pervading in the sphere of Manodharma singing, G V goes a step further and says that she has experienced it even while singing a Kriti.

Now, if,as performers (and Not as rasikas), they feel they have been in this superconscious state, it would be illuminating to know whether the audience also felt similarly elevated. But this could have been experienced only in the hall at that point of time. One cannot decide on this based on a recording heard later. It may not do full justice to the mood that was prevalent in the auditorium.

It is really heartening to find that RS who is known for his virile singing and GV for her fine voice and neatly organised music are acutely aware of real excellence in music.

It would be a great day for Carnatic music if these and other similar minded emerging artistes are not content with mere concert successes but delve deeply into the ocean of music and sing with greater awareness and jnana

VISHNURAMPRASAD · Post by **VISHNURAMPRASAD** » 13 Aug 2007, 15:29

Sorry it was Pudukottai Gopalakrishna Bhagavathar whom I had mentioned as an examplary sangeetha upasaka... and not Krishnamurthy Bhagavathar... sorry for the slip up.. Have edited my posting to set the name right.

nadhasudha · Post by **nadhasudha** » 13 Aug 2007, 22:24

As a rasika, I have several times been moved to tears by several renditions live, CD, tape or otherwise. It is weird that the same renditions at different times do not provoke the same emotions in me. I have come to realise that my state of mind as a listener prepares me to receive the music and not always am I (me or my mind ??)at the level I want to be. Very recently I was quite sick and tried listening to music and I found it did not have quite the same effect. It is almost as if the mind has to be tuned in to the correct frequency for it to allow the experience of the sublime take over.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Aug 2007, 22:44

And also the 'mood' of the performer that day in sharing his bliss with us.

sangeetarasikan · Post by **sangeetarasikan** » 14 Aug 2007, 00:27

Ah, what a great topic! Whenever I have been to a great concert or listen to some mind-blowing recordings, my first thought is, "What would be/have been this person's state of mind when he/she is singing/sang it?" I personally think that one needs a great amount of sadhana to first master and then overcome what we could call "mundane" handicaps like voice, boundaries of raga/tala and other technical details. The factor of being watched would surely add some amount of vulnerability to the performer because he/she is literally sharing their soul. Under these circumstances, if one can cross the borders and enter a super-conscious state, what more can they ask for? I always imagine that MMI would have been in this state in many of his concerts. The paramananda he creates is no ordinary one. Most of the other artistes appear more 'conscious' in comparison. I beleve that super-conscious performances have the ability to touch the soul of all those present, no matter what state of mind the rasika is in. Such is its power.

nadhasudha · Post by **nadhasudha** » 14 Aug 2007, 03:07

sangeetarasikan wrote:I beleve that super-conscious performances have the ability to touch the soul of all those present, no matter what state of mind the rasika is in. Such is its power.

I beg to differ. If the mind is preoccupied with some minor worry or tension it may be possible for it to calm down and allow itself to be absorbed in the experience. But in the immediate aftermath of catastrophic events like 911 or a plane crash, or even a personal loss the whole experience of listening to music appears trivial to the enormity of the tragedy. Listening to a MMI or MS or anything which at other times takes you to the super consious is now almost painful. These are two extremes but surely there must be some in between where the mind refuses to let itself be enveloped by the experience.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Aug 2007, 08:35

sangeetarasikan,
I am there with you in your enthusiasm.
You speak of vulnerability on the part of the performers when they are watched. rasikAs go to a concert to listen to and watch the musicians. If we don't, it is discouraging for them as performers. The professionalism in an artiste is supposed to ignore external distractions, inefficient arrangements or poor accompanists.
While the professional side in him manages the outside world, he launches on a musical journey to bring us the gift of his music. A fine balance in him with the two aspects of his life helps him as a performer. He gives the best he can to the audience as though he is singing in solitude while he is surrounded by others and annoying distractions.
You speak of the soul of the performer. I would say the soul is that of the music which resides in him!

vidyaarthi · Post by **vidyaarthi** » 14 Aug 2007, 09:37

My heartfelt thanks to Surya Prakash ji for this thread which I feel is The topic to be discussed and what I wanted to share,VishnuRamprasadji has conveyed.
Sangeetha Devathai will give back in abundance that Anandam if we are willing to surrender ourselves at Her feet.By this,I mean filling the limitless space of thought and mind with musical pragnya.

Friends,feeling proud and lucky to have every bit of this discussion and that such a thing like this happening is for the good of the entire musical fraternity,I am sure.

gayathrivenkataraghavan · Post by **gayathrivenkataraghavan** » 15 Aug 2007, 11:38

Happy Independence Day to all. There are innumerable Jambavans among the performers and rasikas..It would be overenthusiastic on my part to even attempt to elucidate on this topic anymore than what I have already said. The beauty of this topic made me take part in it as a rasika..

Thank you for recollecting the classes with A.Sundaresan mama Suryaprakash Sir, and as for the concert mentioned by another friend in this thread it was only with the blessings of my Guru who has contributed immensely by working on the rare and unknown Kritis of Sri.Shyama Sastri , and other composers.

I am sure all of us Rasikas would have had such moments that we can fall back on to experience total inner peace..
I just want to add that it was one such Super Conscious moment in KVN mamaâ€™s NGS concert that pushed me from a reluctant to a serious learner of music..

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 15 Aug 2007, 13:22

nadhasudha... you need to expand your news sources... A "catastrophy" in the scale of 911 has been happening quite regularly every year for several decades in certain parts of the world...

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 15 Aug 2007, 13:24

I think this has been hinted before in this conversation but an SC state of the artiste does not automatically translate to a good concert. What we want is the SC state for the rasika and that may often means painstaking planning and execution by the artiste.

Suryaprakash · Post by **Suryaprakash** » 15 Aug 2007, 14:25

Dear friends,

I didn't quite expect that my sharing of an inner-thought in the form of this topic will lead to a musically, emotionally and aesthetically elevating discussion of this intensity, but in hindsight I reckon that this was only to be expected from the esteemed members of this forum, who are veritable institutions by themselves. Thank you all for the bonanza that has literally dissolved me in the ocean of "Athmanubhava", as a fellow Rasika! I pray that such invaluable inputs along with your closeness and affection continue for lifetime.

At this point I would like to convey that my follow up with some detailed personal experiences was inspired by your valuable inputs. Please forgive my outpourings..that is the emotional me!

I shall always look-forward to your postings in this thread, as your rasika and of-course participate in other discussions.

My sincere thanks to the two great artistes...Vidushi. Smt. Gayathri Venkataraghavan, and Vidwan Shri. Neyveli Santhanagopalan for adorning this Temple of Super Consciousness with a Gold-Vimana! I will always need your fulfilling association and warm wishes.

I now sign off with a phrase borrowed from OVK...

"Rasika Mahoththama Krishna"

and wish everyone, a very very Happy Independence Day!!!!

Suryaprakash R