Calls for online experimentation of cm with MIDI

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 05 May 2006, 03:26

As promised to cmlover (and vasanthakokilam), i have put up a version of one of my programs on a webpage right here on freepgs.com. It allows you to "model" carnatic music gamakas as pitch contours as in variance of pitch over time and synthesize with MIDI - all from the comforts of your browser!

(ok by using the word "model" may be i am making it sound technical and grand

)

Please try out the program at http://www.freepgs.com/arunk/gcreate/index.htm. Note that the link takes you to a page which has some instructions for using the program and the link to the actual page containing the program.

The program is a Java applet and so if your browser has not already installed the right version of Java to run the applet, it should do it for automatically do it (after letting you know of course) the first time you open the page.

Please share your experiences here - both pleasant and the painful. This is a first cut of making it available outside so I expect there to be a lot of rough edges. My apologies in advance.

Confession/Warning/Disclaimer: While I think in principle this should be possible, and the program provides you with enough tools for it, I myself have not created satisfactory, realistic gamakas with the program yet. I think it requires patience and effort, and so far mine have been towards making the program "consumable" by people other than me. I hope with our collective effort we can achieve good results!

Thanks
Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 May 2006, 03:45

Arun:

Thanks very much. Very exciting indeed.

First customer support issue:

When I load the page with IE, it put up a blank canvass in the middle. It said "Click here to activate and use this control" when I moused over the blank area in the page. I clicked and it said at the bottom of the browser window ( the status area ) : "load: Class CountourRepositoryViewApplet not found". May be java platform is not installed properly on my machine but before doing anything about it I thought I will check with you here.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 05 May 2006, 03:50

vk,

Well that sucks. I dont know it does for you. It seemed to work for me (i just now tried on a computer where I havent tried before to avoid any browser caching issues). What version of IE are you using?

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 05 May 2006, 03:52

vk,

Try: http://www.geocities.com/arunk_15/pitch ... graph.html and tell if that works. That may give us a clue about java installation?

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 05 May 2006, 04:00

Arun
I get
Sorry, the page you requested was not found.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 05 May 2006, 04:05

cmlover (and vk)

Which one? The freepgs one or the last one?

I think it is probably the last one. I realize now that I made a typo: The correct url ishttp://www.geocities.com/arunk_15/pitch ... graph.html

But cmlover - you should have been to this one before and so you should have java. Try the freepgs.com one for new program - Or are you having problems with the freepgs.com page too?

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 May 2006, 04:26

Arun:

The geocities page works and it displayed the graph. It downloaded and installed Java. I could play it and it the vertical line moved in sync with the song. Great stuff. Sort of like what Noteworthy player does for MIDI with western notations but with simpler notation that we can all relate to. Nice!!

My IE Version is: 6.0 ( with SP2 updates ).

I will try a non IE browser later.

With the Java install due to browsing the geocities page, the freepgs is behaving different in the sense it is trying to download something. Let us see what happens.

EDIT: Though it did behave different, it was in that 'download' mode for ever. The browser right away displayed 'start: applet not initialized'.

I will play with it some more later.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 05 May 2006, 05:03

vk,

Now I think i understand. I had set up the geocities page (a while ago) to explicitly download java (from sun's website) if not installed. I didnt do it here, because I thought it sometimes asked for a install even if you had some later version in it. And on my computer (later OS, IE etc, compared to the one I had used for geocities page), IE and firefox both seemed to ask for the install even without the explicit instructions. So I had thought it was unnecessary. But apparently that is not true.

I hope the page works for you now - of course you may run into bugs quickly!

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 May 2006, 08:31

Well, it still hangs while downloading.

I tried firefox. The geocities page works fine. The freepgs page hangs while loading the applet. The status windows at the bottom says "Transferring data from freepgs......" but never finishes.

In the Java console that comes up I see this:

java.lang.NoSuchFieldError: BLACK at ContourRepositoryViewApplet.init(ContourRepositoryViewApplet.java:22)

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 05 May 2006, 20:11

vk/cmlover/others,

I think this is still a problem with having the right version of java loaded. The geocities applet uses Java 1.3 (older) and this one uses Java 1.4. When you opened the geocities page it probably loaded Java 1.3 and when it opened this new applet, it probably tried to run a 1.4 applet against an Java 1.3, which may explain the strange error.

Sorry for the inconvenience but on machines I have tried (xp-home and xp-prof), they seemed to prompt for the right version automatically which is why i didnt set up the page like the geocities one.

I have now changed it so that it will explicitly ask for the installation of Java 1.4 (or latest if on Firefox). Please try it again.

I have tested it with both IE and Firefox on my computer. But then I did that before (:-). This is the part I hate about Java and it is really a fallout of Sun and Microsoft feud. Microsoft put their own bells and whistles to Java, Sun sued saying you arent supposed to do that and they should remove them. Microsoft responded by simply not including Java by default and the general public get to bear the pain.

The java install is big (100MB!) and on slow connections will be a big deterrant for people to run anything java from their PCs (which is exactly the way Microsoft wants it - they want you to run their technology which of course wont run on any other browser and any other OS

). In my mind, both Scott McNealy and Bill Gates can go to hell! orE kuTTayil Uriya maTTaigaL!

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 May 2006, 22:42

Arun: That did it. It went through the motions and installed Java. It wanted a reboot which I declined. It sort of messed things up which ended up aborting IE. But I restarted IE, went to your freepgs page and there it was... The pitch contour graph and all. I will play with this gamaka maker later. Thanks.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 05 May 2006, 23:26

Arun
Was tied up! Am back now!
I got the freepg one working. I still have to get the hang of using. Tell me a few things. When I save the contour it is not giving a directory name. Where does it store? Also I guess the x axis is the time axis. It is one sec by default, I assume. How do I change it. Also what is the MIDI instrument used? Why cant I save the file as a MIDI file?
There are lots of questions to come

You must be patient with me. I want to master this tool...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 05 May 2006, 23:45

hi cmlover,

> When I save the contour it is not giving a directory name
It is really up to the browser. Due to security reasons Java applets have zero access to your computer - their universe is within the browser. In other words there is no way for a webpage to control that and that is how it should be. Pages/Websites can tell the browser to download something (which is what I do) and the browser then decides where it goes. IE should let you choose a directory. Firefox seems by default put it on the desktop (how dumb is that setting?) - i dont know how to change it.

(ps: i noticed that save was pretty broken, i fixed it now (10 mins ago))

> Also I guess the x axis is the time axis.
Yes

> It is one sec by default, I assume.
No. It is "relative" in terms of % of actual duration (so this is a pretty abstract tool now). So 50 is half-way into the "swara". The actual duration is determined by Len as well as MIDI tempo.

I know this makes it a bit confusing but I was thinking that a particular gamaka can be rendered slow or fast and so the pitch inflexion shouldnt be tied to specific time. But still it can be done in a more user friendly way - i.e. for synthesis purpose. I think instead of "len" and PPQ, i could have a time (i.e user says i want this over 2 seconds) - but len seemed easier in handy when you go into advanced settings (that is assuming it doesnt have bugs). You can play a series of "gamakas" and can control relative lengths of swaras in the series. Then the PPQ controls overall "speed" of the sequence.

> How do I change it.
By the PPQ (tempo) parameter and or Len. But before you change Len read the (admittedly rudimentary) help on the main page. For now stick to changing PPQ (lower value means faster)

> Also what is the MIDI instrument used?
Flute for now. Other instruments in next version (:-)

> Why cant I save the file as a MIDI file?
Next version (:-). I wanted to put it now, but it would take me a bit more time and I didnt want to delay too much.

> You must be patient with me.
No problem at all. All your questions so far are good ones and I expect them to remain so.

> I want to master this tool...
Only gotcha is the tool needs to "grow up" - in terms of robustness and of course features. But that is true for any software including the ones i get paid to write/create

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 06 May 2006, 00:35

> When I save the contour it is not giving a directory name
I just realized that you may be talking about the "save" button in the applet as opposed to the "save to my computer" on the bottom. If it is the save button in the applet, that simply saves the information in the applet's memory. This is also done automatically as you do other things as in switch to editing another contour and so the button may be superfluous but people usually find it comforting to havd a save button and click on it to know they have saved it.

But the applet's memory is not permanent and will be lost once you exit your browser or visit another side. Thats pretty much how it is with applets. There are ways es to keep it around, like "cookies", but thats for "smaller" information. Also it could saved on the server but thats too much headache for smalltimers like me. In any case, that is why you have the "save to my computer" button that lets you save all your contours on your computer's hard-disk. Then later on, you can "import" them back into the applet's memory and modify/enhance them.

Arun

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 06 May 2006, 02:34

I realize that this thread seems to the be the exclusive preserve of the tekkies. I thought that I was the only no-tekkie here (as opposed to the likes of VK, CML, ArunK etc who seem to inhabit a sort of tekkie-swargam). But since I don't see anyone other than you guys post here, I think that there are a lot more closeted 'no-tekkies' or even 'low-tekkies' who are out of their comfort zone. On behalf of all of these individuals, I request one of you to explain this to us: not your experimennts, but just what happens when you MIDIfy a file (I think CML just pulled a Bob Costas on us!). I do not harbor any illusions of even being remotely educable in this, but would just like a description of MIDI in layman's terms using 8th grade language (I have been writing consent forms)....I know the letters are an acronym and stand for Musical Instrument Digital Interface - so maybe you can tell us what it does.
Ravi

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 06 May 2006, 03:33

ravi,

I have only half-baked knowledge on this. But basically MIDI is a language that contains "instructions" for a synthesizer (e.g. there is one in your computer's sound card) to "synthesize" (as in create) music. The instructions are like "note C4 on", "note off", "set volume to this level" , "set instrument to flute" etc. It also has timing commands to instruct the synthesizer how long to play notes. Note that here C is the western C, 4 is octave indicator and so this translates to a pitch. Synthesizer has built-in instruments - unless you are talking expensive synthesizers these are pretty bad, but perhaps adequate for playing around for amateurs and beginners (myself included in this). Many synthesizers allow you to create new instruments from real-world sample - and supposedly produce realistic stuff.

So in essence MIDI is related to creating music with computer as opposed to playing a digitized version of a music that humans performed - like a mp3 player does. The MIDI files are very very small compared to real audio files (even mp3) but then the quality of music produced is limited by the synthesizer's synthesis capability. Unless you have synthesizer results are pretty below average.

For CM the additional complexity of needing gamakas come into play as MIDI in general is much easier for WM with flat notes (and it handles their harmony etc. very well as it can represent multiple tracks, which all synthesizers can handle as well). But it does have a "pitch bend" instruction which can be used to adjust the pitch on the fly. That is what my program does.

Hope that helps.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 May 2006, 04:39

Arun:

I played with a gamaka creation for a few minutes. I am getting the hang of the tool. I tried to create a Sa to ri transition through G3 but I have so far managed only to create something that sounds like a baby crying. :LOL:

Can you post some contour files that sound good? That will give me an idea on the shape of the curves that give pleasant gamakas.

Also, one issue I found ( which I can work around ) is, after moving the shapes around a bit, the 'synth' does not produce any sound. I have not found out exactly what sequence of operations cause this. To remedy this, it is not just sufficient to close that window but I have to completely exit the browser and come back. ( this is with both IE and firefox ).

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 06 May 2006, 08:55

Thanks Arun...that makes sense...and I was right to keep away...
Ravi

meena · Post by **meena** » 06 May 2006, 09:04

'tekkie' as in techie???

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 06 May 2006, 09:06

yes Meena!
Ravi

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 06 May 2006, 10:51

hey, how is it supposed to work?
i have Mac OS X 10.4 and tried using safari, and then firefox..
the applet loaded.. then everything was greyed... i couldnt do much...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 06 May 2006, 22:50

jayendran,

While i havent tested from mac (but i will be able to in a few days), it should work. Assuming the applet loads correctly, click on "Contour1" and it should enable all controls (when it comes up "Default" is selected, which is a "group" of contours as opposed to a contour itself and hence most of the controls which are related to information about a contour is grayed out).

But even after you click on "Contour1" things arent enabled, then there is some other problem. I would be able to look at Mac specific issues if any in a few days.

Thanks
Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 06 May 2006, 22:55

vk,

About Synth failing after a while, yes I ran into it. i will track down that bug asap.

About "good" contours - thats why i had that confession/disclaimer :cheesy: In other words, i dont have any at this point. For now, all i can say use your imagination! In any case, I will come up with examples soon as without them, i think all of us would be lost. They are needed to validate the concepts anyway - all i have now is a reasonable idea that the concept should work, but until we can see/hear it work, its little comfort.

Sorry - i know that is weak but thats all I have now!

Arun

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 07 May 2006, 02:17

jayendran,

While i havent tested from mac (but i will be able to in a few days), it should work. Assuming the applet loads correctly, click on "Contour1" and it should enable all controls (when it comes up "Default" is selected, which is a "group" of contours as opposed to a contour itself and hence most of the controls which are related to information about a contour is grayed out).

But even after you click on "Contour1" things arent enabled, then there is some other problem. I would be able to look at Mac specific issues if any in a few days.

Thanks
Arun

I dont see a Contour1
all I see are:

Click on Save to save all your contours to your computer:
Specify file to import contour information from and click Import:

Click here for information on how to use this applet.
as he options.

Specify import contour optio just opens a system file open dialog box

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 07 May 2006, 23:49

Hi jayendran,

Then it looks like the applet did not load correctly. If it loaded correctly you should see a window with a graph area, some buttons and text boxes above it, a "tree" display to the left of the graph area where Default and Contour1 etc. show up. The "save to my computer", "import from my computer" buttons that you see will be below this window.

Did safari/firefox say anything about java installation when you visit the page? I wonder if the correct java (1.4) is installed on your computer? Putting information in the web-page itself to make browsers on prompt this on all platforms can be challenging due to browser differences etc. So it is possible what I have now doesnt do this for Mac. How about if you go to this page on Sun's website: http://java.sun.com/products/plugin/1.4 ... mple1.html. If you go to this page and the browser asks you for installation of Java 1.4, let it do so. If not, you have it already. In anycase, if a "clock" shows up when you visit that page, you have what it needs. If even after that, you visit my page and cant seem the applet, then what I have doesnt work on Mac. Disappointing but it is fixable - i just need mac to test it and should be able to do that soon.

Thanks
Arun

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 08 May 2006, 00:50

I could see the clock. So i do have the 1.4 plugin

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 15 Aug 2007, 06:18

For those who are scientifically inclined, refer to this link for techniques to analyse recordings:

http://www.charm.rhul.ac.uk/content/svt ... dings.html

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Aug 2007, 10:22

Thanks Mohan.

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 15 Aug 2007, 13:03

I recently bought a recorder that records in a weird .dvf format... Can somebody provide me with a software that converts .dvf to .mp3?
-bhaktha

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 15 Aug 2007, 17:32

bhaktha wrote:I recently bought a recorder that records in a weird .dvf format... Can somebody provide me with a software that converts .dvf to .mp3?
-bhaktha

Try a google search .. http://www.google.com.au/search?sourcei ... &q=dvf+mp3

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Aug 2007, 22:15

don't know if this is the appropriate thread for this - but I posted something on ragas vs. scales (as in western) on my blog that includes some MIDI experimentation. The link is http://sunson.wordpress.com/2007/08/19/ragas-and-scales . Your comments, suggestions are most welcome. I will also be presenting a bit of technical analysis that are sort of on the lines of what mohan posted in post #27 (but definitely not as exhaustive or technical).

Arun

PS: Also, in case some of you still want to try my app mentioned in post #1 but are having trouble with Safari browser on mac, please let me know.