A question for the experts!

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 03 Oct 2007, 00:31

I am posting two songs that have more than just similar pallavi lines. What is going on here?

(from a CD of Bhadrachala Ramdas songs by Unnikrishnan)
jE jE sItArAm. rAgA: punnAgavarALi. Adi tALA. Composer: Bhadrachalam Ramdas.

P: jE jE sItArAm jE jE shrI raghurAm
A: kAvavE saccidAnanda phalamA nAvaNTi dInuni brOcEti ghanamA
C1: sharaNAgata vatsala AgamasAra parama puruSa nI nammiti manasAra
paripUrNa kAruNya ArAvArA suramuni yOgi gaNa paripAla
2: aja bhava vandita Artha sharaNya gajarAja rakSakA ghana kAruNya
mamu brOva nIkanna mahidAsalEri shrama dIrpavE mIra caracApa dhIra
3: kamala lOcana mammu karuNimpavE taNDri vimalavu mIpAda kamalamu goltumu
adrijAdi panuta AdarimpavEmayya bhadrAcala rAmadAsu brOva parAkEla

(from Kritimanimalai)
jE jE sItArAm jE jE raghurAm. rAgA: sAvEri. cApu tALA. Composer: Tyagaraja.

P: jE jE sItArAm jE jE raghurAm
C1: jE jE sItArAm jE jE raghurAm jE jE kalyANasundara kAruNya rAm
2: sharaNAgata vatsalAgama sAra parama puruSa nammitini manasAra
3: paripUrNa kAruNya parAvAra sura muni jana yOgi gaNa parivAra
4: kAvavE nanu saccidAnanda ghanamA nAvaNTi dInuni brOcuTa ghanamA
5: nishicara haraNa dharAdhipa rAkA shashimukha nApai nI kinta parAkA
6: nIvE daivamani nera namminAnu dEva nIdu nAmamE namminAnu
7: nI marma meruga brahmAdula vashamA rAmacandra nijadAsa svavashamA
8: ajamukha pAlana nitya agarAjAtmaja patinuta pAlita tyAgarAja

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 03 Oct 2007, 19:59

Lakshmanji,
Your question is addressed to the experts, However, though I am not expert, I venture to answer the same.

The Thyagaraja Kriti is ok excepting that instead of 'jE jE' it should be 'jaya jaya'. However, some books, mention as 'jE jE'.
Please refer to http://www.rasikas.org/wiki/je-je-sitarama

Regarding Ramadasu kRti, it needs to be verified.

cmhmfan · Post by **cmhmfan** » 05 Oct 2007, 02:02

I am no expert but in looking at Shri Lakshman's email he seems to be asking the question as to why the two songs have so much in common in the first part in terms of the wording.

Krishna

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 05 Oct 2007, 02:20

cmhm fan is correct. That is what I was hinting at.
Bhadrachalam Ramdas lived many decades before Tyagaraja and I was surprised to see some of the lines repeated in The song by Tyagaraja.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 05 Oct 2007, 04:19

Thyagaraja' s mother was a versatile singer of devotionals. It is onrecord that Thyagaraja heard/learned a number of Purandara songs through her. Unfortunately since he never composed in Kannada we do not see any lyrics resembling Purandara. On the otherhand he must also have heard and internalized Bhadracala Ramadas and this maybe one which he liked and sang too in his own way and perhaps learned by his shishyas too! The lack of anu pallavi as well as the addition of Thyagaraja mudra suggests that he tried to modify the lyrics to suit his imagination.

Perhaps a lexical analysis by VGV may reveal some facts!

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 05 Oct 2007, 06:22

cmlover wrote:It is onrecord that Thyagaraja heard/learned a number of Purandara songs through her. Unfortunately since he never composed in Kannada we do not see any lyrics resembling Purandara.

On the contrary, there are a number of kritis of tyAgarAja, that take off on the same lines as purandara's - what if the language is not kannaDa?

Either tyAgarAja was influenced, Or great souls think alike, Or both

-Ramakriya

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 05 Oct 2007, 09:47

cml,
I have not been able verify the correctness of the version of Rama Dasu kriti. All the same, it is not within my capacity to carry out lexical analysis.

Even assuming that the version is correct, I would not be surprised if Sri Thyagaraja has incorporated the wordings of Rama Dasu in his kriti. Sri Thyagaraja has been deeply influenced by Purandara Dasa. There are a few references in his kritis which show his reverence to Rama Dasu also.

As has been brought out that Sri Thyagaraja's mother was a good singer, he must have imbibed the values and the words from his mother. After all, the childhood impressions which come with mother's milk are the deepest ones.

Compared to MD, it is stated that Sri Thyagaraja is not that scholarly. But even MD is compelled to repeat many a epithets in kritis and he has 'lifted' many a lines from Saundarya Lahari and Lalita Sahasranaman.

Who can resist the compelling beauty of Saundarya Lahari and the sweetness Lalita Sahasranamam?

From whatever I have seen of the kritis of Sri Thyagaraja, not all his kritis are truly inspired. In some of kritis - probably in his earlier stages of life - he seems to have laboured to stitch words. IMHO, most of his small kritis - which come in the category of inspired and ecstatic - like 'nAda sudha rasamibilanu' - belong to his latter part of life.

How I wish that we could arrange the kritis of Sri Thyagaraja in the chronological order so that we can find the evolution of the person - just by analysis of his kritis!

sangitaRasika · Post by **sangitaRasika** » 05 Oct 2007, 20:59

Here is just a guess from a non-expert.
Charanams 5, 6, 7, 8 of Sri T is unique in the above listing, so assume, Sri T only created those but with same starting line of pallavi because he was influenced by Sri Ramdas. So, since the 2 songs have the same starting lines, maybe, somebody, down the lineage, after the time of Sri T, started singing these 2 songs in tandem, because they liked the meaning. Then it came into practice and eventually the first 3 versus also found its way into Sri T's sahithyam collection.... Afterall, lot of ancient music is spread by "ear" (karna parampara)....