Swara Identification Exercises, Instrumental: Post Answers

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Nov 2007, 03:04

VK
Not too fast!
Now I am totally confused. According to your post #431
Aro: s g p r' s`
avaro s` p g n` s
Now you claim
Arohanam: S G3 P N2 R2' S '
Avarohanam: S' P G R N`S
So which is the 'real' vasanthakokiladhvani?
It is becoming a nightmare keeping track of '`' vs ''' .
Let us be consistent and not make typos!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Nov 2007, 03:05

Understood Arun.

And if I understood right, it is all for continous phrases. Will ( P N... <pause> P R' S ) or ( P N R,,, P R S' ) be OK?

CML, still do not take this as cast in stone. Sorry for the confusion. You are catching it in the fastly evolving phase of this organism

After playing the modified one for a while and listening to it again, it shows some resemblance to Revathi a bit too much to my liking eventhough the swaras are different. ( not that there is anything wrong with that, I love that raga )

So it may still change.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Nov 2007, 03:09

It is becoming a nightmare keeping track of '`' vs ''' .

Me too. I have to be very careful. The readability of this scheme is not very good. It is hard to read the ` and '. Arun, we need a new scheme. Can we combine small and capital letters to our advantage? Just a suggestion.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Nov 2007, 03:16

If we want to combine Capital and small, one suggestion would be

s r g m p d n for the middle and S R G M P D N for the higher ocative and s`, r`, g`, m`, p` for the lower octave. So the full spectrum would be

s` r` g` m` p` d` n` s r g m p d n S R G M P D N

I am also OK to use the regular single quote for the lower octave instead of back tick now that we do not have to use both quotes. In that case it will be

s' r' g' m' p' d' n' s r g m p d n S R G M P D N

Feel free to modfy.

CML, would this be better?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Nov 2007, 03:17

Just keep in mind that we are (especially me

not as smart as Arun !

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Nov 2007, 03:20

s' r' g' m' p' d' n' s r g m p d n S R G M P D N S"

may be good for a full range without ambiguity!
Since atitaara S" will rarely be used!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Nov 2007, 03:26

This is a janya of chaarukesi or riShabhapriya (since madhyama varjyam)!
or HK or vaachaspati (also dhaivata varjyam)

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Nov 2007, 05:09

s' s and S are fine by me.

> And if I understood right, it is all for continous phrases. Will ( P N... <pause> P R' S ) or ( P N R,,, P R S' ) be OK?
I am not 100% sure but I dont think so.

I think you may be able to get away with such a pause at the end of stanza - followed by like an avarthana of just percussion. In other words, so the part following is clearly disjointed, a different melody line, from the part before. This means a pause in the middle of a phrase, or even a stanza would not qualif.

In compositions, I think (not 100% sure) even between stanzas, or end of stanza to the refrain, the order is followed. I have observed this a little in varnams. So I think I believe in general deviating order is not kosher.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Nov 2007, 05:14

vasanthakokilam wrote:After playing the modified one for a while and listening to it again, it shows some resemblance to Revathi a bit too much to my liking eventhough the swaras are different. .

How so? I mean you have exactly 1 swara beside s and pa that matches it

Maybe you were emphasizing pa or ga so much and sruthi bedham on it leads to something close to revathi?

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Nov 2007, 05:43

actually even in my example previously i had this:

(new scheme)
n'sgn's n'sgpn's

This has sn' (and of course sn's). I am not sure if this is allowed or not.

While I think from sa you go in both directions for a raga - but I am having doubts. If you have a raga like s g p n S and S n p g r s, then s-r-s is allowed right? (only s-r-g i.e. ascending from ri is disallowed). Similarly if you have s r m p n S and S d p m r s, would s-n-s be allowed?

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Nov 2007, 05:49

arunk wrote:
vasanthakokilam wrote:After playing the modified one for a while and listening to it again, it shows some resemblance to Revathi a bit too much to my liking eventhough the swaras are different. .
How so? I mean you have exactly 1 swara beside s and pa that matches it

Maybe you were emphasizing pa or ga so much and sruthi bedham on it leads to something close to revathi?

Arun

When I said resemblance, it may just be the pattern of usage. r n' s p' n' r s usage reminded me of Revathi even though it is a different r. It is quite interesting. I will work on it some more.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Nov 2007, 06:01

suji - I need some clues to make progress on your exercise

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Nov 2007, 06:07

I think s-r-s is allowed in ragas like kedaram (is there in navaraga varanam itself s-n'-s-r-s-n' s-m-g-m p-n-p-m).

The other kind where you have say n in arohana, but not in avarohana - seems is sort of rare. There are a few ragas many rare/old - but among popular ones kannada is one alhough it speciically has rn's in avarohana

. There is also janaranjani (S R2 G3 M1 P D2 P N3 S | S D2 P M1 R2 S), is S-n-S allowed there?

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Nov 2007, 06:49

After some more deliberations, here is what I have settled down for now. I think this retains the original color and still rectfies the one jump siutation which needed some help along the lines Arun suggested.

Raga: Vasantha Kokiladhvani

Arohanam: s g3 p R2 S
Avarohanam: S p g r n' s

g n' s and G n S are allowed occasionally, especially the higher octave G n S.

g r s ( G R S ) is not OK but g r n' s ( G R n S ) is OK ( as can be interpreted from the Aro/Ava above )

Here is a very short snippet covering the aro/ava: http://www.sendspace.com/file/prk654
( song structure again borrowed from another well known song ).

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 02 Nov 2007, 06:52

arunk wrote:suji - I need some clues to make progress on your exercise

You are on track with 2 of your ragas in sample 20 A. The sample B might set the other one right when you match it. Will be interesting how you analyzed.
rItigowla is fine I was just wondering if you had any other clue beside nsggm

My aim here is to bring some contrast to how each raga sound in different quadrant. The sample A and B are conversing with one another

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 02 Nov 2007, 07:03

VK I like the scale. If you are fixed on this one. I will attempt something...this thread is taking me to composing. Heard the scale -sounds good

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Nov 2007, 07:28

VK
did you mean to say
G n S is allowed? (watchout for notation!)
Of course G R n S is allowed..
Again g r s is not OK Agreed!
but g r n s is OK. Should this not be g r n' s ?
You are driving me crazy

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Nov 2007, 07:40

CML, sorry. I have fixed my post to reflect your comments. Hope the confusing notations are taken care of.

One thing we need to standarize on is this: We have notations for the three octaves ( for a good reason ) but then when we talk abuot specific usages especially when it crosses sthayi boundary, we are forced to provide both sthayis. I guess we have to stipulate that if we write s g n' s is allowed, it also implies S G n S is allowed unless otherwise specified.

Suji, yes it is stable now.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Nov 2007, 07:50

vk - it is of course your raga

. But the main reason I had p n R S was to prevent the two wide-jumps when ascending from pa and coming back to it i.e. p R S p (consecutive). I thought that was the main constricting thing for me (rather then needing r in g r). The p R S and S p in structure forces discreteness in the melody everytime you go beyond pa and you want to get back to it.

With this new one, we could of course do p R S G R n S p to space out the 2 jumps but that seems very roundabout

, a lot of that route dictated by the scale. And melodically it seems to sort of go helter skelter! One could instead do p R S G n S p, but then does not help as it actually makes it 3 wide jumps, and 2 wide jumps right next to each other (G n and S p).

But would p R n S p be now allowed? Seem so - and if so that may be ok

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Nov 2007, 08:11

>But would p R n S p be now allowed? Seem so - and if so that may be ok

Yes, I also think so.

The reason for taking out the 'n' in the arohanam is basically after playing with that, I felt the original color gave way to some already familiar ones.

The one thing that sounded better for me to address the 2 jump issue ( and reduce it to 1 jump ) is this: Keep the arohanam the same but in Avarohanam S d p g r n' s. It has a good teasing quality of sounding like Mohanam and then brings up a surpise with the g r n' s. Also, S d p p R S retains the original color. I am still playing with it. It has some chance of making it but I do not want to rush it yet.

So, this is cooking in public. CML, Suji you said you want to experiment with this. Feel free to do so in its current form , it is more or less stable but be prepared for some ongoing construction work. S p g in the avarohanam would not be disallowed.
But it is all part of the fun. In fact, I will wait till your experimentation to see what you all do with it. If it all sounds good, I will leave it the way it is.

Thanks Arun for all your input. It has been very educational and fun.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Nov 2007, 08:19

Suji,
Going back to your Halloween night, my, that was some production! Highly imaginative! That is why I call you enterprising in the other thread...

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 02 Nov 2007, 08:32

In fact, I will wait till your experimentation to see what you all do with it. If it all sounds good, I will leave it the way it is.

That will take some days or weeks.
or may be sooner-I usually get creative in the 11th hour.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 02 Nov 2007, 12:42

That is why I call you enterprising in the other thread...

Thanks. But look who is talking....

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Nov 2007, 22:10

A little quiz. I have this contrived scale:

s r1 m1 n2 S
S d2 p g3 s

(note: corrected from original which had stayi indicators all wrong)

1. What is "special" about this scale?
2. I am not 100% sure about this: (This sort of follows from answer to 1 above), there is a "problem" in constructing (cm type) melodies with this scale. What is it?

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Nov 2007, 22:24

1. There is no overlap between ar/avaro other than the shadjam.
There are wild swings from madhyama to taara scales. I am not sure these are harmonic.
2. It is impossible for human voice to traverse such wild jumps. Only instruments (VK's flute; suji's violin

can execute such acrobatics.
I doubt whether it would be an acceptable CM melody!

Who knows! I am already struggling with vasnathakokiladhvani

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 02 Nov 2007, 22:45

To me it is like cakravAkam scale with different skips in aro/ava
I don't think you can even play it. You will have to linger in ascending phrase with no where to go and vice verse

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 02 Nov 2007, 22:51

arunk wrote:A little quiz. I have this contrived scale:

s R1 M1 N2 S
S d2 P G3 s

1. What is "special" about this scale?
2. I am not 100% sure about this: (This sort of follows from answer to 1 above), there is a "problem" in constructing (cm type) melodies with this scale. What is it?

Arun

Nothing wrong

You just gave two brand new scales to Sri BMK

if he has not tried them out! Particularly the avarOhaNa ( if has the same ArOha s G3 p D2 s) is very workable, except for the resemblance to Mohana. May be it can be named as mOhanamuraLi

p.s: Just for little fun- I have the utmost respect for Sri BMK, as some of the rasikas here may know.

-Ramakriya

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Nov 2007, 23:40

cmlover wrote:1. There is no overlap between ar/avaro other than the shadjam.
There are wild swings from madhyama to taara scales

aargh - I made typos for stayis! I guess no matter what the scheme is, we are mistake prone. Sorry.

I meant

s r1 m1 n2 S
S d2 p g3 s

No wild swings. There is one large swing from m1 to n2, but they are harmonically related and this type of a transition occurs in many popular ragas (rItigowla, nATAkurinji)

But I still think there is a "problem".

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Nov 2007, 23:41

Hint:

1. Try to start traversing up - and then see where you can traverse down
2. Try the reverse. Start to go down - and then try to find a place to go up.

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 02 Nov 2007, 23:45

arunk wrote:Hint:

1. Try to start traversing up - and then see where you can traverse down
2. Try the reverse. Start to go down - and then try to find a place to go up.

Arun

I couldn't do that. That' what I was implying in my post.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Nov 2007, 23:54

yes suji. I missed that sorry

I think anywhere you start (other than sa) you have to head to the next sa in that direction before turning around. So any melody in this scale would simply be a run up and down the scale.

Am I right?

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 03 Nov 2007, 00:15

this is what is playable but under some constraints
SRMNS'
S'DPGS
RMNS'R'
G'S'DPG
MNS'R'M'
P'G'S'DPGS

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Nov 2007, 00:23

Arun, Is that really a rule that is followed? Meaning, you can only turn back on a common swara between aro/ava? I know you mentioned that yesterday but I thought you yourself found exceptions. May be I did not quite follow.

I would intutively think a karvai and a pause on one note is enough to change directions. Aren't there such discontinous flows in songs?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Nov 2007, 00:30

vk - I believe it is a rule in krithis - but i cannot bet for sure on it. I would like to proven wrong. Like I said, if a clear disjoint is established it should not spoil the raga mood, but I think such disjoints are NOT present in cm krithis. (Again not ready to bet

) The end of any stanza always ties back to pallavi. End of pallavi - is "compatible" with anupallavi and charanam. These brige-overs I think would follow the rule.

Btw, I did not find exceptions. Only from sa (being tonic) you go either way (and janaranjini does allow sns - i checked SS's krithi's notation).

So in suji's example above some would be disallowed (R'G' GM, MP).

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Nov 2007, 02:37

Thanks Arun for the clarification...We are on the same page now.

How about this: s r m,,,,< pause> s d' p'

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Nov 2007, 05:26

I thought that 'thaaTTu' svara prayOgam (fully allowed in CM) always permits jump to any svara, except that the jump must be harmonically related so that it is not unmusical!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Nov 2007, 05:57

cmlover, they are allowed only from swaras that allow movement in the direction of the jump.

For example, in a raga with arohana like s r m p d S/S d p m g r s, you can do s g r m but then cannot follow with g p i.e. s g r m g p would be disallowed.

Also jumps need not be harmonically related although jumps between harmonically related ones are (obviously) more common. For example I learnt a piece in vasanta (my teached called in swara-pallavi), which uses m-n i.e. m1-n3 this is a spacing of s-m2 - not harmonic (unlike s-m1 or s-p).

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Nov 2007, 06:01

vasanthakokilam wrote:Thanks Arun for the clarification...We are on the same page now.

How about this: s r m,,,,< pause> s d' p'

I guess these things may be subjective. If it is within a stanza - then I think in general this would not be kosher. If a stanza ends in ma, and then a good pase and then you start with (lower) sa, maybe.

But you see that is the problem in this scale. Anytime you want to change directions other than at sa (or lower/higher allowed in swara in that direction i.e. you can do S d p g n' s r, need not always change direction at s), you must give a substantial pause. That itself is going to cause discontinuity. Either that or you must reach atleast the end of the octave in that direction.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Nov 2007, 07:24

duh! I suddenly realized there is more scope and I was just being plain dumb

In the raga s r m n S / S d p g s, one can do something r-g-r-m-p-m-n-S. Each transition here is allowed by the scale. The important, basic thing that completely skipped my mind is that from ri, one need not be mandated to ma (and thus to ni) i.e. what is in the arohana. The arohana does not imply order of notes in ascent (except in vakra stuff) - it simply indicates from which notes one can desend. So from ri one can ascend, and one can ascend to ga or ma etc. If ascending to ga, after that one must of course desend - but that can be to ri, sa, or ni' etc.

This is what cmlover implied above - one can indeed ascend TO any swara (albeit nearbvy ones are generally what is done except for some wide jumps). My mind was simply only focused when whether one can ascend FROM a swara. In other words, I was only looking at the starting swara. Boy do I feel like an idiot

.

So the melodies in the scale wont be simple walk up and down the scale as I had thought

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Nov 2007, 07:37

Some allowed snippets (dont know their musical value)

m-d-p
m-d-p-m-n-S
S-n-S or s-n'-s
S-d-m-n-S
p-m-d-p
s-r-g-r-g-s
n'-s-r-g-r-g-s

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Nov 2007, 09:45

Arun

For example, in a raga with arohana like s r m p d S/S d p m g r s, you can do s g r m but then cannot follow with g p i.e. s g r m g p would be disallowed.

Here starting from s you can go to mantra avarohana svaras or arohana. Hence sg will be illegal according to your arohana. You can have Sg if that is what you meant!
Now Sgrmg is a perfectly legal complete phrase. You can now start a new phrase starting with p . Whence Sgrmg p will be quite all right with the vishraanti!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Nov 2007, 09:56

I am getting ready with my half-baked experiment with vasanthakokiladhvani. Here is the first composition.

Ragam vasanthakOkiladhvani

Lyric

P: gaNapatiyE sharaNaM
AruL purivAy dinamE- ma^NgaLa

AP: vidhi mAdhavan thozhum vinAyakanE
gadi nI allaal vERevarE

C: (durita kaalam with citta svaram)
Vasantha kOkila innisai chuvai nee thaa
Akila ulagil unatharuLal pugazhum maruviDumE

I have notated it and have it sung through computer. Here is the audio
http://www.mediafire.com/?cz2m00f1kh2

Alternate location: http://www.sendspace.com/file/mlkirn

Of course it sounds different from any raga we know (maybe slight resemblance to Hamsadhvani ? since it is HK janya). Because of the 'high jumps' very difficult to sing. I could not attempt it since my voice breaks down

Though from conventional CM perpective it may sound 'exotic' I am sure it can find a place in the repertoire as it does not violate any rules. It may sound much better with nice instruments though the western instruments provided under MIDI are very inadequate.

Comments please...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Nov 2007, 19:06

cmlover wrote:Hence sg will be illegal according to your arohana.

No cmlover. This is the common misconception - somehow very tempting for all of us to fall (as I fell for again here inspite of knowing about it

). Arohana except in cases of vakra does NOT determine ORDER of ascent. It simply says from what swaras you can ascend. So s r m n s, does NOT say you must ascend only as "s r" - it simply says you can ascend from sa, ri, ma, and ni. So s-g would be admissible (but not ideal) as you can ascend but sa. Only that you cannot do neither s-g-m but can do s-g-r-m (or s-g-s)

For example in sAveri you gave s-r-m-p-d-S and S-n-d-p-m-g-r-s, but even in varnam you have s-g-r-s (3rd chittaswaram). You also have a few occurences of d-G-r-s

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Nov 2007, 20:13

Arun
This is just ridiculous. I agree with you on saveri where we have srg mpd nSR are all used. By putting them in squence you get srgmpdnSR which totally violates the arohana of the raga itself. There are no proscriptions on contiguous raga phrases!
Pl clarify...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Nov 2007, 20:51

cmlover - pl. read my post again. I did not say s-r-g-m is allowed in sAveri. I only said that s-g is NOT disallowed (in sAveri as well as our s r m n S/S d p g s)

s-r-g-m (or s-g-m) is disallowed. Why? Because g-m is disallowed (as g is only in avaroha => you can only descend from ga). But more importantly, not because says it is s-r-m in arohana

Both s-g and s-r-g are very much allowed but only as long as you descend from g. That is why you have s-r-g-r and s-g-r and d-g-r etc. (s-g-r also occurs in muktayi for the varnam).

This is not unique to sAveri. Take durbAr varnam (ga only in avarohanam), you will find n-G. Take kAmbhOji (ni only in avarohana), in the Adi tala varnam, you will find m-n, p-n and d-n

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Nov 2007, 21:46

So let me summarize the rule.
If you land on any svara occurring only in arohana you are permitted to ascend to any note in ascent occurring in either aro or avaro. You are always permitted to descend to any note occurring in the avaro.
On the other hand if you are on a note occurring only in the avaro then you are permitted to descend ( not ascend to any note in aro or avaro!

Is this not discrimination?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Nov 2007, 21:57

As I let the fascinating Aro/Ava discussion sink in ( CML, I do not think Arun implied any Asymmetrical rule except he happened to discuss the Arohana cases ) ............. CML I can not download your recording. Mediafire says 'your download is starting' but jus hangs there. Please look into it, or upload to another site. Thanks.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Nov 2007, 22:21

Yes, CML, I have tried too...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Nov 2007, 22:55

Here you go
http://www.sendspace.com/file/mlkirn

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Nov 2007, 22:59

VK
If that is true when he claims 'sg' is admissible though g is not in the arohana, he states gm is not admissible since g is not in arohana and that you can only descend from g since it is only in the avarohana!