gender discrimination in music

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 04 Nov 2007, 22:07

there is an excellent and thought prvoking article on the above subject in THEhindu magazine section of today 4/11, by our illutrious vidwan of the young brigade sri TM KRISHNA, can the above subject be taken for discussion in our forum quoting passages from his article gobilalitha

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 05 Nov 2007, 01:23

Let us be careful! If names are mentioned, it may amount to slander. We certainly should not get involved in any legal wrangles. But the issue can be discussed without naming names!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Nov 2007, 03:39

Name Names!

Name and shame!

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 05 Nov 2007, 04:07

could someone pl post a link to the article? I can't seem to find it....
thanks.

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 05 Nov 2007, 05:14

Please post the link...cannot find the article...thanks

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 05 Nov 2007, 06:38

As I have mentioned in the initial post , the article appeared in the sundayissue dated 4/11, magazine section under the heading 'ISSUES".I think net readers of the hindu can get to it . being such a discreet artist , no names have been given . If some of the young members of our forum either in bangalore of chennai can process to publish it, it willbe appreciated otherwise , i will try to annotate it, but there will be some delay, the last time I did my annotation exercse was for my intermediate(pre degree) examn 60 years back

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 05 Nov 2007, 21:50

While the search is on perhaps you can read:
http://www.hindu.com/lr/2007/11/04/stor ... 020100.htm
and Nick can feel relieved with the 'naming names' and the sense of shame still persisting

( I did read David Copperfield as well as Jane Eyre when I was a young boy without batting an eye

gravikiran · Post by **gravikiran** » 06 Nov 2007, 13:30

here is a link to the article written by my guru sri tm krishna in the hindu dated 4th november 2007.

http://www.hindu.com/mag/2007/11/04/sto ... 100400.htm

FYI.

thanks,
ravi kiran.

sindhu · Post by **sindhu** » 06 Nov 2007, 13:48

Relative question is how many times TMK has encouraged female artists during his musical journey till now? I am yet to see any such development.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Nov 2007, 13:51

Quite a powerful article. I did not realize that the gender discrimination is that bad in CM. Among currently active artists, I have only heard of a mridangist (or two ) who do not play for females. But from what Krishna portrays it looks to be a much wider problem.

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 06 Nov 2007, 13:55

but once that it is done,it is not necessary.In the case ofwomen accompanists, they feelthat even if theyare as good as their male counterparts, many males do not prefer them because of their gender.There is definitely some truth to this As a male singer I can only think of one reason chauvinism .one of the arguments for this attitude is that the sruthi of the women is rather high and so it is difficult to play for them. the other argument is that when they accompany women,the attention is entirely on the women artist, despite their contributionto the concerts success. accompanists sometimes say'we cannot play freely for women.what doesthis mean? that means there is a certain way they want to play, this they cannot when they accompany women. female accompanists are never able to achieve the same level of recognition as the male.I have also heard male accompanists sayt hat female artistsdo not treat them well .let us go into this issue,If I ask my accompanists to play softly ora short solo it is wrong.the singer'sgender immaterial. if a female singer is asked to doso it is perceived as a greater wrong.finally one's choiceof accompanistsmust be on the basis of quality, as perceived by the singer or the main instrumentalist gobilalitha

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 06 Nov 2007, 13:56

the crux of the whole essay of sri TMK is as follows..Gender discrimination is very much alive in carnatic music, we need to face it and find answers.the reach of carnatic music has definitely increased and multiplied,as more people are contributing to its growth in various ways.Interestingly,there is a kind of discrimination that still exists,to put the facts straight,many musicians in the past and even today have refused to accompany woman musicians or be accompanied by woman musicians. there were social taboos inthe past. bit itis astounding thatsuch an opinion persists even today. many male musicians are willing to accompany women,till they themselves reach a certain level of popularity and fame.they even consider it a proud moment when they declare they havestopped accompanying women. when they needed concert opportunities andexposure, they accompanied women artists

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 06 Nov 2007, 14:30

due to my disabilities in typing the 2 paras have been interchanged the second should come first and vice versa . sorry gobilalitha

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 06 Nov 2007, 14:47

i vaguely remeber having discussed the same issue earlier

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 06 Nov 2007, 20:27

This is just a collection of cliches which have been hashed out time an again at different Forums. I thought TMK will bring out some inside information as well as personal experiences. By the by what about Females accompanying male musicians. The available pool is small but it is time that women venture into that area of CM as well!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 06 Nov 2007, 21:45

I think that TMK is to be lauded for that article. It is nice to see that he can speak his mind, and has chosen a topic such as this for discussion. While it maybe a collection of cliches from the past, it is the first that I am aware of that a leading MALE vocalist has aired them out like dirty laundry. It is time that artists ask themselves these tough questions and probe themselves and societal mores for answers. It will only strengthen them.

jukebox · Post by **jukebox** » 06 Nov 2007, 22:05

I agree with cmlover. For someone who has aired out all the oft-asked questions, I wonder how often TMK himself has women accompanying him. If the answer is yes, the question that would follow would be: Do they (the male vocalists) have women accompany them at important concerts and venues? One can always hide behind some statistics that don't reveal vital info.

I have heard from the grapevine that R & G were driven to becoming vocalists precisely due to all the biases against women. Though it is to their credit that they have established themselves in their new path, it is certainly a shame that a violinist of the calibre of Gayatri isn't accompanying anymore. Even today there is no dearth of very talented women violinists in the field. They shouldn't be driven to doing other things out of sheer desperation.

Finally I think one article by anyone (male/female, star/not-a-star) isn't going to change anything. Every field is governed by its own dynamics, the people in it and their individual personalities. Seems a totally pointless exercise for people like us standing outside the circle to even discuss it!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 06 Nov 2007, 23:10

My! First, an ace writer among (women) writers, Shashi Deshpande, speaking for all women--writers, artistes, and all.
Then, TMK, saying it like a woman would, in speaking on behalf of them! Since both areas have to do with me, no wonder, I am moved.
We women had to, and still have to deal with this condition of not being taken seriously among our peers and readers and audiences of the opposite gender. This problem is world-wide and Shashi Deshpande says it so eloquently, as only a woman and a notable writer can. To all those who think that women's writing consists mostly of romance novels or are mere trivial pursuits, her writing has nothing to do with them. To me, Dickens could have been a woman, and also many other well-known writers. This applies to all other branches of the arts too in that, women can match their skills with men, if there were (and are) no obstacles.

TMK speaks his mind as a woman would have, and I appreciate it no end. His wife is a performing artiste and
he knows the frustrations of women artistes first hand. It is laudable that he has made his sentiments public. Every woman performer who goes through them and who has gone through them in the past would appreciate his empathy with them. He has put forth his arguments against pitch problems effectively. So too on other aspects of the problem.
The psyche of a performer is complex enough. In wanting to succeed, one has to face many hurdles, and the male of the species does not want to deal with female 'interference' as well! Yes, the effect of old fashioned ideas is one among them, as TMK points out. As imaginative as some main performers are, tradition in this aspect might play a part (but for star performers among women who steal the show with their glamor too), I would think that a woman adds color to the stage (of course, her talent being the first asset). A fine example:T. Rukmini. A man from old times, Mali, was partial to her accompaniment. Now, Akkarai Subbalakshmi accompanies her guru Ravi Kiran, and as talented as she is, I feel she plays much better accompanying him rather than when she plays for women performers. She and her sister have started giving vocal performances too. Another Ranjani and Gayatri phenomenon in switching to vocal at some point? Amruta Murali too, perhaps.
So, TMK's article is of importance. I guess, as sympathetic as he is, he will lead the way in helping women accompanists of worth in their becoming mainstream performers, and hopefully, others would follow in his foot steps.

*The above statements are not from a feminist point of view. It is all about human equality...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Nov 2007, 01:12

That is a great article by TMK.

Well said, Sir!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 07 Nov 2007, 01:31

I always though the pitch argument was the most bogus of all arguments. It had zero logic. The tendency in olden days was higher pitches - closer to the female pitch. And that was obviously fine then. But somehow when it came to females singing "it is not good" - give me a break!

But I for now think the pressure change can and indeed must come from rasikas. Ultimately, it is our patronage that makes the art thrive. If we simply want to just "enjoy the music", and not care about discriminatory strains beneath, and adopt a "hey, its not my problem" attitude, then what does that say our principles and us? I see a quick rush to adopt moral high ground, quote nichala and chakkani raja at the drop of a hat. But I seem to sense a cautious, neutral stance here. What gives?

Arun

appam · Post by **appam** » 07 Nov 2007, 12:37

The author TMK has to be complimented on a well thought out and precisely written article.The points made out r very valid and well taken.
However, with the exit of MLV,DKP,Brinda and Muktha from the CM scene,there have been very few female performers of similar calibre.This is disconcerting ,notwithstanding the fact that they r crowdpullers.The same is not true with the present male artistes.
Can any of the female vocalists ,barring a few and only at times perform like TNS,Thiruchur R,SS orTMK in Vidwat and Presentation?Perhaps Iam being naive.

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 07 Nov 2007, 13:38

I couldn't agree with you more Appam! I was waiting for someone on this forum to come out and call a spade a spade ...

While I fully realize that gender discrimination is wrong and should be stamped out, we shouldn't rush to champion mediocrity under the umbrage of attacking chauvinism!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 07 Nov 2007, 16:49

Rasam/Appam perhaps you are referring to the "popular" women musicians (and some of them like Sudha/Nithyasree are not short on vidwat although there might be differing opinions on the aesthetics of their music)

There are several examples of highly accomplished women musicians...Vedavalli, Rama Ravi, Suguna Purushottaman to name only a few. Even among the younger lot, artistes like Sowmya, Manda Sudharani or Pantula Rama are in no way less than their male counterparts in vidwat. I am sure I missing many other names but that sounds to me an unlikely reason for avoiding women artistes...

Sindhu, TMK used to be accompanied by Gayathri earlier and occasioanally performs with Amrita Murali these days...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Nov 2007, 20:59

Ability may be an issue, but it is not this issue, and is, I think something of a red herring to this thread.

Who can remember the names (I'm sure many of you will know this story; most likely I heard it here) of the top-rank female singer of some time back who was asked by a visiting mridangist if he could accompany her (in her house) singing a particular song --- she responded that if he would not play for in public she was not going to sing for him in private.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Nov 2007, 21:11

Well said Vijay and Nick. Abiliites differ and opinions about abilities differ but that is not the issue here. Rasam, Appam, just to make sure, this is not to take away what you said about making sure quality is preserved but I have to wonder at some level if sometimes there is indeed a thin grey line between guarding against mediocrity and defending discrimination. Historically, the former is used as a facade for the blatant form of the latter.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Nov 2007, 22:17

As a psychologist I could think of a few (?theoretical) reasons why 'male accompanists' fight shy of accompanying females. These may or may not be true but are worthy of investigation and even counselling may be in order.

1. Spousal envy. I mean here the subtle objection of the spouse requesting her partner from accompanying the female artistes. The underlying factor may be pure jealousy or fear of being ridiculed by other female friends who may chatter (not uncommon at all in our culture) about the husband being a sissy. Though the male partner may not agree he may compromise in the interest of domestic concord!

2. Masculinism. In principle if ever he is put down by the artiste (of opposite sex) it will be a lasting stigma. In the concert milieu the vocalist is the dominant (lead) performer who has the right to call the shots. On many occasions the accompanists have been bullied (rightly or wrongly) by prominant male artistes. It will be intolerable to suffer a similar humilation at the hands of a female. This is essentially an ego problem not necessaarily an ethical issue.

3. Financial. It is possible most female artistes are paid on an average less than that of prominant male artistes. The accompanist however great may (usually) be paid equal or less than that of the lead srtiste. During contract negotiations the sponsors may have 'refused' the demands of higher payment. Here the shoe is on the other foot. The male accompanist cannot be faulted.

4. Shyness. This is an inherent (biological ?) problem. Many men are uncomfortable sitting and participating in activities along with women. Culturally (until recently) even during domestic get-togethers we segregate men and women. Let us also remember that in olden days the performers and accompanists used to perform without any upper garments (no air contioning or fans to cool!). Hence in addition to basic 'indian nature' this is also a cultural issue.

5. "gawking". Sorry for this choice of expression. Most men like blatantly to watch 'pretty women'though the opposite is subtle, it is still uncommon. Many Rasikas capitalize on the opportunity to occupy front rows to get an uninhibited 'darshan' of the performer. That was one of the reasons in olden days parents would not permit their daughters to perform in public. I have attended private concerts in those days where the female singer sits behind a curtian! The artiste though 'self aware' has to conquer this embarrassment to focus on her art. In addition to wearing perfumes/make-up (a must for women) as well as gawdy dress; it all add to the element of distractions. Legitimalely the male accompanists consciously or subconsciously may like to avoid such embarrassments.

6. "Habit". By this I mean tradition. In addition to the art the sishyas imbibe the attitude of the guru concurrently. They may think and act like their guru and claim 'My guru never accompanied females'.

There may be many more variations conscious and 'subconscious' prejudices which can be uncovered on the 'couch' if the artistes areready to be psycho-analysed.

Again what we consider to be an 'aberration' was part of the societal norm in the past. Old habits seldom die. Perhaps the budding schools of music may consider this issue and institute a program of gender-education for the benefit of the future generation of CM artistes!

Thanks Arasi for voicing the woman's perspective. We would love to hear more from other women Rasikas at this Forum!

jhnlasik · Post by **jhnlasik** » 07 Nov 2007, 22:38

BMK used to be accompanied by female on the violin and on the mridhangam too.

I know of one Sangeetha Kalanidhi vocalist refused to be accompanied by a female violinist
during a concert in USA!!!!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Nov 2007, 23:09

cmlover, isn't it that sexism is inherent in certain cultures and traditions? As in 'culture' and 'tradition' are not reasons for it, but all part of the same thing?

Is it just that much of this part of India simply hasn't caught up with 'advances' in such areas yet?

Be nice though, if carnatic music led the way, rather than, as I suspect is the case, lagged behind on this issue.

Maybe its just my bank here, but when I go to see a senior person, it seems to more often be a woman than a man. Perhaps more so than in UK. And a married woman, with children too. Certainly the whole culture is not standing still these days.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 07 Nov 2007, 23:36

well, I don't think even the West has advanced. To me, we are really talking about top-notch artistes or legends not accompanying female vocalists or allowing female accompanists. While the west may have advanced in day to day affairs, men still command a premium. Why is the men's tennis match reserved for Sunday slot? Why is chess still a man's game? How many lady CEOs are there in the world of business? What is the percentage of top class female scientists? Where's women's cricket in India? I don't believe this is a problem restricted to one culture. I think carnatic music is in a far better situation than all these other fields when it comes to accepting women. The number of concerts given by ladies are at par if not more than the males. And in many high profile sabhas, Sudha/Aruna Sayeeram/R&G bag premium slots.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Nov 2007, 23:40

Certianly Not Nick! India is not standing stilll. We were the first to elect a woman to the highest office in the country when some eye brows were raised in the West (I mean Indira Gandhi and now Smt. Pratibha devisingh Patil ). But then old traditions and fanaticism won't die easily. Remember the days of the suffragette movement. Has much progress been made in 100years! Isn't the clock moving slow! perhaps too slow!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Nov 2007, 23:55

Absolutely.
It is not happening just now, Nick. Ever since the britishers left us (not entirely

), we saw many women enter the field of medicine and they held responsible positions in government offices and banks too. They were not all married off soon after finishing school. College education for women became prevalent.
In the sixties, when I went to live in England, I found that there were not as many women doctors there as in India. In the US too, I realized!
As CML points out, there are a lot of reasons for the woman performer being a 'probelm' in some way or other to their male counterparts. CM being so rooted in traditions, it is understandable too...

It is a pity, though. A handful of women have overcome it, for example MSS (who had male accompanists all along) and Sudha Raghunathan. Her mastery aside, she has all the ingredients to be a crowd puller, the glamor that she brings to a performance...

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 07 Nov 2007, 23:55

CML,
Your points are very valid. A lot of it is old-timer perspective and still continuing to the present time.
But I bet there will be time in future when accompanying a women or be accompanied by a women will be a"status"

(in the good sense) hopefully.
It also will mean crossing traditional boundaries.

Times are changing...
I think education will change.

What you said about get-together gatherings is still true. I often feel I am the odd one in such gatherings trying to cross that boundary (I'm sure there are many like me) and I do see some odd ones from opposite side doing the same.

We do need those traditions preserved- those that are good and identify us as the Indian way. But then not at the cost of discrimination.
At least for now there is no male discrimination.....

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Nov 2007, 23:56

CML,
Our posts crossed!

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 07 Nov 2007, 23:58

I see three layers in societies. The top layer is what the society exposes itself with to other societies. This is the elite level. Then there's the bottom or mundane level which is the society is very highly representative of. Third there is the middle level which holds everything between the above two.

In the developed countries, reforms are not visible at the topmost level, rather they are visible at the bottom-most level. In the developing countries this is exactly the opposite.

Let me give an example - In India we have had women as President and Prime Minister, as goddesses etc, but thats only the image we are comfortable with, thats just the top level. Better representations of the society are to be found in the middle and bottom levels. The picture there is not so rosy.

In the US and UK for example, you might not find too many black leaders or women presidents, but that hardly is considered material - the real changes have happened at the roots, so if the Queen of the UK does not touch blacks, its no longer something as grave as the regressive mindsets that have permeated the lay folks in countries like India.

We should however take all this with a pinch of salt - looking back at history, we have been much better champions of human rights than most other countries.... only problem is we have failed to move on... stuck still in the past.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 08 Nov 2007, 00:16

appam wrote:However, with the exit of MLV,DKP,Brinda and Muktha from the CM scene,there have been very few female performers of similar calibre.This is disconcerting ,notwithstanding the fact that they r crowdpullers.The same is not true with the present male artistes.
Can any of the female vocalists ,barring a few and only at times perform like TNS,Thiruchur R,SS orTMK in Vidwat and Presentation?Perhaps Iam being naive.

I am sorry, IMO, this is yet another invalid argument which sort of misses the point and IMO simply misdirects the argument. First of all, who has more vidwat, enought vidwat etc. is completely subjective. There would be people who would even claim NONE of the male vocalists you mention have good vidwat

. What matters is whether the artist commands the audience respect and adulation, and in that female artists do as well if not better than their male counterparts. But the more important questions would be:
1. Do the male accompanists who supposedly have high standards perform for "not top of the line" male artists - or would they perform ONLY for the top artists?
2. Do they perform for the female artists who would ome under the few you mention in "barring a few"?

Arun

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Nov 2007, 00:17

Suji,
Our culture speaks of Sakti and of the Lord himself being male and female energy (ardhanArISvarA). It is the social modes which result in such discrimination. India's invaders contributed quite a bit to it. I don't think I saw village women who toiled in the fields having to deal with it. With no inhibitions, working hard side by side with their husbands out in the field made them equals automatically. Social dogmas didn't affect them, nor could they afford the time or had occasions to nurture them.
I do see it changing in India now. Men and women sit together in a gathering, shake hands too (was not there before!). I meet women among the young being more articulate and open about their views. This is a healthy picture. The other sad side is when women, in the name of championing the dignity of womanhood, go too far and get virulent in their expression and rob the intent of its dignity...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Nov 2007, 00:27

A flurry of posts, I may add, and mainly from men, and most of them speaking in women's voices. So, there is hope...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Nov 2007, 03:02

In the current context I would also like to know whether there are 'Gurus' who refuse to take female shiShyas! In the 19th century context women were not accepted in CM practice. It is a shame indeed the Trinity never admitted any female shiShyas though there were several female Rasikas.Even into the 20th century the tradition continued and several well-knowns refused to teach CM to women. In fact GNB went the extra mile in permitting MLV to learn from him (If GBR is following perhaps he can fill in the historical perspective!).

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Nov 2007, 03:57

sbala, you are right that it is still a world-wide problem. The changes that have happened in the West in my lifetime, the last fifty years, are enormous, but yes, you will still find unequal pay structures, even among the most senior professions. I'm not saying that other cultures don't have a lot of work to do and a way to go yet, before real equality can be seen.

As I have said, I meet many professional women in India: they have not been caused to give up their jobs and stay at home (o course, they are among the higher earners, no doubt).

The last time we touched on this tough subject, wasn't it remarked that the discrimination is less evident among Hindustani musicians?

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 08 Nov 2007, 09:12

It is a shame indeed the Trinity never admitted any female shiShyas though there were several female Rasikas

The 'so called' Trinity were nAdOpAsakas and they had different goals than the professional musicians - who sing for money - about whom it is talked here. They did not write kritis of hypocricy. They had tri-karaNa Suddhi - mano - vAk - kAya : uNmai - vAymai - meimmai. They achieved their goals and are gone for good than face such undue references from ......

What about the word 'accompaniment'? How 'laya' becomes 'accompaniment'? Can there be 'sruti' without 'laya'? There are far too many such questions which need to be answered before we look for excuses from the past.

It is like the politicians blaming 'Manu' for the ills of society. Society - as also any art form - is always 'evolving' - there is nothing static about it. Stratified minds cannot have vision.

How women considered as 'Sakti' by Hindu tradition became 'Sakti-less' is to be pondered by women themselves - they have lot more to answer - they have allowed themselves to be looked through the eyes of man. 'Bra-burning' is not women's liberation.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Nov 2007, 10:16

It is a shame indeed the Trinity never admitted any female shiShyas

I remember reading somewhere that MD had female shiShyas.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Nov 2007, 10:21

VG,
I have been trying to locate the thread (which I read last night) where you had kindly posted the paramAcAryA's explanation of the meaning of Sri SubhrahmanyAya namastE in reference to the word 'guhA'. Thank you for posting it. I only knew of the incident of Ariyakkudi singing for him. This was extremely interesting.
Happy DeepAvaLi!

Sorry mods for not posting this in the appropriate thread...

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 08 Nov 2007, 10:54

I am extremely sorry that the topic I started should go to the extent of critisizing the highly reverred trinity.I t is a sin. are we competent? gobilalitha

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 08 Nov 2007, 12:42

As VK has pointed out MD had female sishyas so let us please leave the Trinity out of this! The 18th century was a different time and place so it is not fair to impose 21st century values on them...

CM has indeed moved on...hardly any up and coming mridangist can afford not to play for female musicians, irrespective of their vidwat. For whatever reasons, it is women musicians who draw the maximum crowds these days! In another 10-15 years I am confident that this will be a non-issue.

Suhir · Post by **Suhir** » 09 Nov 2007, 20:18

It is great TM Krishna brought this topic to the surface.

I remember watching a concert when Mannargudi Easwaran accompanied Sudha Ragunathan; she went on to thank him for accompaniment and mentioning that he is an exception in the male chauvanist world. I have seen footages of the greatest, Palghat Mani Iyer with DKP! Sudha's comment did not make sense at that time. Later on talking to many artists I have come to know this truth.

Both gender artists are responsible for the current situation.

Could it be ever possible to hear Sudha with Karaikudi Mani? For that matter it is not be possible to hear Kunnakudi with Karaikudi!

At the same time why is that even female lead artists give such value male accompanists? And when it comes to an instrumentalist how does the gender make the difference?

If I am an artist I will feel comfortable travelling with 2 males on a tour. They will move their own luggage. I can talk to the artists in depth and they will not be think that I am hitting on them in a sexual manner. No mood swings.

I just witnessed a tour in which Manoj Siva toured with two female artists! I felt sorry for him.

TM Krishna on your next tour to US bring along a female mrdangist!!! !!! At least the violinist. Or the ghattam player.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 09 Nov 2007, 21:30

Suhir, we live in a world where women and men increasingly work together. I am happy to report that corporate India, for instance, is quite comfortable with the concept of men and women working in teams, travelling together etc. etc...this can lead to the occasional problem - for example, men from a conservative background can take a convresation with a woman to imply a romantic relationship and this has led to some unfortunate incidents. But by and large, it is working just fine and there is no reason why this should not apply to carnatic musicians...

There is no need to feel sorry for Manoj Siva. He is a top notch Mrudangist who was good enough for 2 leading musicians to trust him with the rhythm dept for an important overseas tour.

Suhir · Post by **Suhir** » 09 Nov 2007, 21:45

Felt sorry for Manoj Siva because he had to move, load unload all the luggage all aone. That too mostly the luggages of the other artists. When they got down buses and trains or between transfers Manoj had to litterally suffer. He may be magnaimous and deny any suffering. But, I dont think UKS would be able to handle that.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Nov 2007, 22:18

You were there?

If so, did you feel so sorry for him that you offered to help?

There are many misconceptions in this business of gender: one of them being that a woman does not have the strength to lift her own luggage (but she does have, in the home, to lift her own child, or carry the water pot...).

There are also courtesies extended for many reasons: I would hope that an able-bodied woman, on the same tour as a considerably older mridangist, might lend a hand, just as might a younger man on the team. Gender should have nothing to do with it.

--- I speak, of course, in generalities. I do not know the people involved in the incident Suhir refers to and was not there. I make no comment about it.

I do not see why the Trinity should be immune to criticism --- but nor do I see that any has been made here. Of course we cannot judge people in this fast moving world by ever evolving (we hope

) viewpoints. History is not an excuse --- but it is what has brought us to today, and contains the causes of how things are now; as such we cannot ignore it.

I don't think there is a shortage of female violinists, but how many lady mridangists are available? How many are even in the classroom today, preparing to play on stage in a few years to come?

How many generations before parents are as willing to send their girls to the mridangam class instead of the vocal class?

And... the very word, 'accompanists' --- Indeed, a good point from vgvindan!

Suhir · Post by **Suhir** » 09 Nov 2007, 22:43

I was there and told this to Manoj in person in front of others too!!!!!!!!! Initially I did extend my hand but after noticing the attitude of the others I simply refused to help.

There are plenty of female percussionists!!! The names we know are only those who accompany. That does not mean there are no talents out there.

Hero worship that is inate in our culture and annointing of the trinity as Saint makes it defficult to challenge the position given to them. There is an infallibility granted to them.

shishya · Post by **shishya** » 09 Nov 2007, 22:53

Gender discrimination is more prevalent than we would like to see in many so called 'advanced' fields. It is neither new nor exclusive to carnatic music as in many other fields.

I am pretty sure if professional women were to pour out their experiences as to how they need to be constantly proving their worth in order that their peers take them seriously, we could have an endless debate. I see it everyday in many situations even in day to day activities.

That doesn't endorse the validity of the current situation though. Kudos to Sri TMK for talking about the elephant in the room. At least he started the debate ...

On the word 'accompaniment', I don't think there is anything wrong with referring to the mridangam and violin as accompaniments since they are the instruments that have a tremendous impact on the concert quality. In my opinion, shruti and laya have to be innate in any student of music (sort of pre-requisites) that when present together, like parents, enable him/her to produce good music. In other words, the mother and father have to be within yourself if you are a student of music. Not having a mridangam accompaniment does not mean that the performer is not adhering to laya. Similarly not having a tambura available does not mean that the performer performs off shruti.

This statement is not intended to trivialize the role of accompanists but only to highlight the imprtance of having an inherent sense of shruti and laya for a student/performer and hence to impress that violin and mridangam (and other upa pakkavadyams) are in fact beautiful accompaniments that embellish the overall concert experience.