K.gAyathri@DVMK's house (rasikas.org) concert on Nov 17th,20

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 17 Nov 2007, 23:41

Accompanied by L.Ramakrishnan â€“ Violin and Harinarayanan - Mridangam

The theme of the concert was selected by Coolkarni. The theme was very creative and it was "Lesser Known Compositions of well Known Composer"

1. Viriboni nipai chala (varnam) - kedAragowlai - rudrapatnam venkataramayya
2. nijamuga rAma nI pAdamula(N,S) - keeravAni - poochi
3. vishwanAthena (R,S) - samAntA (nAganandini)- MD

4. Marachitivemo nannu (R,N,S) - poorvikalyAni - mysore vasudevachArya
neraval "sadatAmu nannithE sarasija lOchana"
5. brOvamma - mAnji - SS
6. murahArE mukhanEna(S) - suddamukhAri - MD

7A.saraguna pAlimpa (R,N,S,T)- kEdAragowlai - Poochi
7B. tani

8. muruganin marupeyar azhagu - behAg - surajAnandA
9. thirruppugazh - hamsAnandi - arunagirinAthar
10. Maitreem Bhajatha - rAgamAliga - kAnchi chandrasekara swami
11. pavamAna and mangalam

I am hearing this vidushi for the second time . She is young and very gifted with a very great voice, as atleast in my opinion it takes little more years to get such a resonant voice with a relatively rich timbre.

After few days I will post a detailed review.

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 18 Nov 2007, 09:33

Reg:K.Gayathri's rendition
She gave a scintillating per performance , captivating the audience with her mellifluous voice and deft handling of every item in the menu.
One observation :
Even as the kriti "viswanAthEna" rendition in "sAmantA" ragam (as per MD school) was considered brilliant , . the rAga vistAram tended to present a "GHAMBHEERAVANI" tinge, in view of the absence of "RI" in the arohanam.
GHAMBHIRAVANI IS A DERIVATIVE of nAgA nandini (30th melam) as per thyag.School.

sa ga ma pa dA ni sa; sa dA pa ma ga ri ga ri sa
Thyag.'s sadA matim talatu gada rA is in GHAMBHIRA VANI
Ramaraj

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 18 Nov 2007, 09:48

Many thanks to dvmk for hosting the concert yesterday.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Nov 2007, 10:18

Oh dear... I got my dates confused and missed this.

Next one?

dvmk · Post by **dvmk** » 18 Nov 2007, 19:33

4. Marachitivemo nannu (R,N,S) - poorvikalyAni - mysore vasudevachArya
neraval "sadatAmu nannithE sarasija lOchana"

Dear Rajesh ,The Niraval line in Marachitivemo was "Sathathamu nammithini".

vageyakara wrote:Even as the kriti "viswanAthEna" rendition in "sAmantA" ragam (as per MD school) was considered brilliant , . the rAga vistAram tended to present a "GHAMBHEERAVANI" tinge, in view of the absence of "RI" in the arohanam.

To me the alapana sounded like Samanta all the way with the right emphasis on Rishabham and Nishadam. I am not sure where it gave a feeling Gambeeravani.

A rasika did point out that it sounded very different to the one presented by Kalpagam Mami in the concert a couple of weeks back. But then, there are different versions to kritis and this one was another solid version of "viswanAthEna".

Kudos to the artiste for the list of rare compositions. The only oft heard compositions was the main piece "saraguna pAlimpa" and the two compositions that were presented as "tukkadas".

A Concert with three ragas taken for a very elaborate treatment was a very welcome effort.

A very absorbing concert from the rare kedAragaula Varnam to the Dwitala Avadana presentation of the very popular tiruppugazh "marukkulAviya" in pUrvikalyAni and not hamsAnandi.The tiruppugazh was my personal request to the artiste.

Following are pictures of the proceedings taken by me [Very unprofessional tho

]

http://rapidshare.com/files/70572497/Co ... 7.rar.html

I'd appreciate if the rasikas could post better pictures of the day's programme.

Waiting for a detailed review from rajeshnat.

raviraj · Post by **raviraj** » 18 Nov 2007, 19:40

Can somebody post the recording of atleast the Samantha krithi rendered by Vid Gayathri. Curious to know as to how it was dealt with especially with Kalpagam Mami's version. Second time in a row I has to miss attending..

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 18 Nov 2007, 21:14

# Keeping with ariyakudi's tradition of kutcheri sequence is always immaculate, but I certainly do not like the tradition of singing the varnam and the main or rtp in the same rAgam , as I feel there is just too much overlap. But nevertheless that is a general crib , not to take away any musical excellence of k.gAyathri's excellence in kEdaragowlai. Her rAga essay was great in the main alApanai with nice akarams with a good neraval in "varaguna seshadri varada venkatesa" .Swaras were also good , the earliest varnam was just good .

# The days best was her fantastic keeravAni. Since her voice has a good bass strength , keeravAni gelled very well , especially the second half of swarams was excellent.

# samAntA rAga alApanai was very detailed and she followed with a rare krithi of MD, certainly this samAntA was different in style to what kalpagam mAmi played. For me this samAntA during krithi was more close to tillang major and had a lining of shankarAbharanam . But surprisingly ,I am not too sure if I heard her earlier samAntA alApanai in line with krithi . Is that possibly because of my unfamiliarity?? . But in any case , the alApanai was very detailed and once should give a lot of credit to this vidushi for singing such rAgas in this young age. Perhaps it is the effect of a very dedicated training under Smt SugunA Purushottaman.

# poorvikalyAni a very tricky rAga for any musician to elaborate as it inherently gives me a feeling of what I would characterise as a sort of "stillness in karuna rasa for a little long time". To me K.gAyathri got little bit caught there , possibly in my opinion she could have bit shortened her alApanai to reduce a bit of stillness inherent in poorvikalyAni ,that too considering she rendered a long samAntA alApanai before. Her rendition of krithi was very good .The swara patterns were also very good.

# The mAnji could have been sung little more slower more vilambAkAlam would have bought more charm . The suddamukhAri was emotive kind of making all of us wonder if it was vanaspathi or gAnamurthi. She tried to bring a quick fast razy swaram in suddamukhAri , but could have done better.

# The behAg was just good.The poorvikalyAni thirrupuggazh had an intellectual sugunA purushottaman laya dose. She sang that as an "avathAnam" ,with her right hand counting tisra jhampa and her left hand picking up kanda triputa. I was little at sea there , more impresssed with her intellect and quite lost in my ignorance.(DVMK tx I only thought it was hamsAnandi , is my head conditioned as it is thirrupuggazh it would be in hamsAnandi that too considering I only watched only both her hands)

# The last was a fiting tribute to DVMK as his school is named after kanchi mahAswami. Smt gAyathri emotively sang especially her kApi half which was lovely in maitreem bhajatha.

# rAmakrishnan whenever he played in the male side of the violin was settling very well with my ears , but his female side of violin play could have had more nAdham. HarinArayan played just good , there was always nice and consistent sound in his play.

# On a whole, I would have preferred if she had a taken a rtp instead of another elaborate saraguna pAlimpa, this was felt by few others too. Also overall I would have loved to hear atleast one racy number somewhere in between samAntA to kedAragowlai, without that contrast all the krithi tempo was kind of same.

# DVMK's home and ambience was very neat.DVMK took a lot of pains to set up the whole thing .Absence of coolkarni was the most boring aspect of this concert, I am sure he is going to be back soon .

saveri · Post by **saveri** » 18 Nov 2007, 22:41

Sorry for my ignorance.

Was this concert announced?

Maybe i missed it.If such concerts are announced , are they done on the website or are they private invitations? Would be happy to get an answer.

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 19 Nov 2007, 07:39

Hi Rajesh,
More due to unfamiliarity of the ragam, (sAmantha)than due to the slightly different beginning phrases of the alapanai tended to present a look of Ghambhiravani in view of the Rishabha varjam deployed by the artist. I think Sri raviraj's request , if complied with , will clear the doubts.
Ramaraj

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 19 Nov 2007, 10:03

saveri wrote:Sorry for my ignorance.

Was this concert announced?

Maybe i missed it.If such concerts are announced , are they done on the website or are they private invitations? Would be happy to get an answer.

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3980
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4040
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3860

These concerts are for the rasikas and please feel free to attend. In fact we need more and more memebers from the forum to attend as these concerts give us an wonderful oppurtunity to interact

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Nov 2007, 10:11

Do we need one sticky thread for these concert announcements? Would that help?

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 19 Nov 2007, 10:23

i was there for sometime. couldnt be there thro' the evening. it was a nice programme.

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 19 Nov 2007, 13:51

on some little searching, SSP lists sAmanta as a janya of nAgAbaraNam, 30th asampUrNa mELam which is the equivalent of nAganandini, the 30th mELam in the sampUrNa scale.

while, nAgAbaraNam is listed with a lot of vakras in the mUrchanai. sAmanta is listed essentially as 's r g m p d n s/s n d p m g r s', however, The author has made a comment that the dhaivatham in the avarOhaNam is tough to handle in the vocal renditions and is easier for vainkas. He says it is probably a mistake by the pUrvikAs to include the dhaivatham on the avarOhaNam.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 19 Nov 2007, 14:00

K.gAyathri mentioned at the end of vishwanAthena rendition tht she rendered samAntA which is also known as nAganandini. IIRC, At the end of the concert she told me that this rAgam samAnta has shades of chAlanAttai and shankarAbharanam(very evident ) too...

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 19 Nov 2007, 14:02

the version of k gayathri was a tad faster than that of kalpakam mami's...

raviraj · Post by **raviraj** » 19 Nov 2007, 14:08

Bharat,

You are right on dot as to Samanthaâ€™s treatment as found in SSP. Given the SSP moorchana aro/avaro, Vid Gayathri is right when she says Naganandhini & Samantha are same. Wanted to post this note after hearing Vid Gayathriâ€™s version if any recorded, anywaysâ€¦

Subbarama Dikshitar in SSP states that Venkatamakhi as well as the purvacharyas give a sampoorna arohana & avarohana (S R2 G3 M1 P D3 N3 S) for Samantha (making it more or less Naganandhini-Mela 30 itself) & placed it under Nagabharanam the raganga as per the asampoorna scheme. He further goes on to differ (castigates?) on this krama-sampoorna treatment for Samantha, on the ground that the vivadhi svara (D3) cannot be executed by vocalists with the same felicity as vaineekas in the avarohana (Edited) . Apart from the lakshana shloka and his sanchari no illustrative compositions are given in SSP.

Per Prof SRJ, Samantha (courtesy one of his valuable lec-dems) is a very old raga & was part of the early 19 melas & every third or 4th kriti of Annamacharya (as found in the copper plates of TTD) is given to be in Samantha. Subsumed by Tilang with the passage of time, Samantha survives today (the extant krithis that I have heard) through the 2 krithis of Dikshitarâ€™s (Pranatharthiharaya & Vishvanathena both of them being brought out through Sundaram Iyerâ€™s publications) and Sahaja Vaishnavachara of Annamayya. I am unsure if the Annamayya compositionâ€™s tune was done by Rallapalli Ananthakrishna Sarma. SRJ Mama renders both Pranatharthiharaya and Sahaja Vaishnavachara.

Per Prof.SRJ's version of Samantha, the nominal murcchana aro/avaro seem to be S M1 G3 M1 P N3 N3 S / S N3 D3 P M1 G3 R2 S, with the caveat that D3 also occurs rarely in the arohana. His version of Pranatharthiharya tallies with this aro/avaro & apparently seem to have been learnt by him from Svaminatha Pillai. Prof. SRJâ€™s emphasis on D3 is strong.

Vid.Vedavalli renders Pranatharthiharaya (the kshetra kriti of the Lord at Thiruvaiyaru) frequently these days and in her version, IMO I hear that the vivadhi svara D3 is intoned rather weakly. Another rendition of Pranatharthiharaya I have heard is by Balaji Shankar (commercially released Sangeetha Cassette 721 Dikshitar Krithis) from DKJ's school & in his version has a strong D3 & is liberally encountered.

Coming to â€œVishvanathenaâ€

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 19 Nov 2007, 14:23

raviraj, the SSP places the arguement of not-handle-able shatsruthi dhaivatam with the avarOhaNam and not the ArOhaNam....

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 19 Nov 2007, 14:53

Bharat, and other CMLovers,
Both sAmantA and GhambhiravANI have :-
SA GA MA PA DA NI SA in ArOhaNam
and SA DA PA MA GA RI GA RI SA -as Ava.roh.for Ghambhiravani, whereasSA NI DA NI PA MA GA RI SA -D0- dor Samantha

sAmantha has various versions Viz)

SA GA MA PA DA NI SA-SA NI DA NI PA MA GA RI SA- (SSP)
SA RI GKA MA PA DA N I-SA NI DA NI PA MA GA RI Sa-
(Rangiah-MYsore)
SA MA GA MA PA DA NI SA-SA NI DA NI PA MA GA RI SA
( DR. BMK)
SA RI GA MA PA DA NI SA-SA NI DA PA MA GA RI SA
( Dr.BMK)
SA MA GA MA PA DA NI SA -SA NI DA PA MA GA RI SA(DrBMK)
Hence it is evident from the above that in Both GHAMBHIRAVANI AND IN SAMANTHA . most ofthe versions depict rishabha varjam in Arohanam.
One can notice from Dr.BMK,s ve rsion , in the avarOh.GA RI GA RI SA
HAS BEEN DEPLOYED. to ensure exclusive ,identitification of the greart raga GHAMBHIRAVANI .
Ramaraj

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 19 Nov 2007, 15:03

As per SSp, sAmantha is a upAnga ragam of nAghabharanam(30 th mElam -which of course is the kadapayAdhi parallel to Naganandini)
To add to the list of Ragas in Ghambhiravani, I have one composition in the ragam in glorification of Lord Ganesha.(Incidentally Prof SRJ had all praise for this kriti.
Link ref: http://www.karnatik.com/c3473.shtml
Please view , listen and get back to me with ur observations.
Ramaraj

raviraj · Post by **raviraj** » 19 Nov 2007, 15:23

Bharat,

Mea culpa.Thanks for spotting my mistake. I am editing it accordingly.

Shri ramaraj,

As I understand the nominal aro/avaro of Gambhiravani is Aro: S G3 P M1 D3 N3 S Av: S N3 P M1 G3 R2 G3 R2 S. The vakra arohana so strikingly brought out by the opening bars/pallavi first line of the Tyagaraja kriti "Sadamathim"

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 19 Nov 2007, 16:24

hallo Raviraj 'ji, U are right , Thyaga raja has beautifully dealt this vakra prayogam thus:-

ta;latu ga da ra
mgr.gari garisa.
Have u listened to one of my kritis in this ragam ?I have given the link ref.already
www.karnatik.com/c3473.shtml
Ramaraj

mnsriram · Post by **mnsriram** » 19 Nov 2007, 20:37

Dear Sri Ramaraj, just like your other compositions this is a very beautiful composition and the flow is so natural. So far my favourites have been your vAsanti and kAntAmaNi

Regards,
sriram

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 19 Nov 2007, 23:24

Thank u very much MNS, your complementary words are quite encouraging
Regds

ramaraj

meena · Post by **meena** » 20 Nov 2007, 06:11

dvmk

thanks for sharing the pics.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 21 Nov 2007, 16:05

Had to miss this....but look forward to the uploads...

Jayashri · Post by **Jayashri** » 22 Nov 2007, 02:38

Does any have a recording of the concert by Kum. Gayathri?

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 22 Nov 2007, 03:42

I too would very much like to listen to this version of sAmanta.

Even in Smt Kalpakam's rendition, the rAga shows lot of overlap with tilang. SSP has P N N S , S G G M etc as the special prayogas, but they in fact are play a major part in the kriti vishvanAthEna ( not given in SSP).

I find this situation similar to chaturangiNi - where one of the kritis(swaminathena?) abounds in special sanchAras making it closer to hamsanAda than to chitrAmbari, and in the other kriti (guruguha bhavAntarangiNi) the rAga shows much closeness to chitrAmbari.

-Ramakriya

raviraj · Post by **raviraj** » 22 Nov 2007, 11:49

Ramakriya,

Interesting you brought up the question of Chaturangini. Vid Kalpagam plays the krithi ( Ekamranathesvarena) which is not in SSP and she doesnt use G3 in the ascent (IIRC) using only SRMP & PNS ( PDNS as well more) giving a more "Hamsanaadamish" effect to Chaturangini. I havent seen Sundaram Iyer's published notation for this. On the other hand Prof SRJ sings the SSP kriti in Chaturangini krithi ( Guruguhabhavantaranginim) applying S R2 G3 M2 P D3 N3 S / S N3 P M2 G3 R2 S .

As for Samantha, Prof SRJ's rendition of Pranatharthiharaya features SNP as well as SNDP. Looking forward to somebody posting Vid Gayathri's version of Samantha.

isai_rasigan · Post by **isai_rasigan** » 22 Nov 2007, 15:40

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 22 Nov 2007, 18:24

The above links are not workable.Some one please help !!!

Jayashri · Post by **Jayashri** » 22 Nov 2007, 21:39

thanks so much isai_rasigan. the concert was superb!

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 23 Nov 2007, 09:38

rajeshnat wrote:# rAmakrishnan whenever he played in the male side of the violin ..

.

Is this L Ramakrishnan same as the L Ramakrishnan who plays veena ( with Smt K S) ?

-Ramakriya

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 23 Nov 2007, 09:55

ramakriya - this L. Ramakrishnan is formerly of Mumbai - it's not the same person as vainika on this forum.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 23 Nov 2007, 09:58

raviraj wrote:Ramakriya,

Interesting you brought up the question of Chaturangini. Vid Kalpagam plays the krithi ( Ekamranathesvarena) which is not in SSP and she doesnt use G3 in the ascent (IIRC) using only SRMP & PNS ( PDNS as well more) giving a more "Hamsanaadamish" effect to Chaturangini. I havent seen Sundaram Iyer's published notation for this. On the other hand Prof SRJ sings the SSP kriti in Chaturangini krithi ( Guruguhabhavantaranginim) applying S R2 G3 M2 P D3 N3 S / S N3 P M2 G3 R2 S .

I looked at the notation for the chaturangiNi kriti in Ananda Rama Udupa's book ( in kannaDa). I don't have Smt K S's rendition handy to compare. But it looks like she plays the same version given in this book. There is an abundance of s r m, p n s, s n p. There is only one instance of s n d n; and there are a few a " s g r g " s.

Interestingly chaturnagIni is the pratimadhyama counterpart mELa of sAmanta which was where this discussion began.

As for Samantha, Prof SRJ's rendition of Pranatharthiharaya features SNP as well as SNDP. Looking forward to somebody posting Vid Gayathri's version of Samantha.

Just now listening to Smt Gayatri's recording from the concert. Thanks isai-rasigan!

The AlApane is very nAgAnandini'ish - if I can say so - except for s n d n figuring quite prominently. ( and also she announces it as such at the end of the AlApane). This is not an anomaly given than SSP gives a sampUrna ArOha avarOhaNa sanchAra. And the kalpanAswaras also follow a krama sampUrNa pattern.

The kriti rendition also adhere to the notation in SSP (with all the tilangish sanchAras

. I think Smt K S also played the kriti the same way in the other concert. However, her short AlApane was more in line with the varjya sanchArAs used in the kriti.

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 23 Nov 2007, 10:19

[quote="raviraj"]Coming to â€œVishvanathenaâ€

raviraj · Post by **raviraj** » 23 Nov 2007, 12:21

Ramakriya,

Thxs for you response. A few counter points

1. On Kalpagam mami's version of Chaturangini - My point was it is not as per the raga lakshana as handled by Dikshitar himself in the SSP Kriti Guruguhabhavantaranginim. The kriti (Ekamranathesvarena) mami plays is not in SSP & is obviously from Ambi Dikshitar's palm leaf manuscripts->Sundaram Iyers publications. SRG3M , PD3NS should figure prominently. SNP is fine as D3 is omitted in the descent per Guruguhabhavantaranginim kriti.

2. I am yet to hear Vid Gayathri's version of Vishvanathena. Let me hear that & post my comments. I am not sure why in the context of this kriti you say

<Quote/>

The kriti rendition also adhere to the notation in SSP (with all the tilangish sanchAras smile.
I think Smt K S also played the kriti the same way in the other concert. However, her short AlApane was more in line with the varjya sanchArAs used in the kriti.
<UnQuote/>

This kriti is not in SSP and is again from Sundaram Iyers publications. I think you were referring to Udupa's notation. Also can you tell me where in the kriti you heard D3/N2? TIA.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 24 Nov 2007, 00:51

raviraj wrote:<Quote/>

The kriti rendition also adhere to the notation in SSP (with all the tilangish sanchAras smile.
I think Smt K S also played the kriti the same way in the other concert. However, her short AlApane was more in line with the varjya sanchArAs used in the kriti.
<UnQuote/>

This kriti is not in SSP and is again from Sundaram Iyers publications. I think you were referring to Udupa's notation. Also can you tell me where in the kriti you heard D3/N2? TIA.

Raviraj,
Thanks for catching that - What I meant to say was "The kriti rendition (vishvanAthEna) adheres to the special sanchAras mentioned in SSP, and to the notation given in Udupa's book".

About the D3, you can hear it showing up clearly in the second half Avarta of anupallavi (as one example). There are few other instances as well.

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 24 Nov 2007, 01:05

raviraj wrote:1. On Kalpagam mami's version of Chaturangini - My point was it is not as per the raga lakshana as handled by Dikshitar himself in the SSP Kriti Guruguhabhavantaranginim. The kriti (Ekamranathesvarena) mami plays is not in SSP & is obviously from Ambi Dikshitar's palm leaf manuscripts->Sundaram Iyers publications. SRG3M , PD3NS should figure prominently. SNP is fine as D3 is omitted in the descent per Guruguhabhavantaranginim kriti.

.

Raviraj,

Coming to Chaturangini, the kriti EkAmranAtheshvarEna has plenty of S R M P N, S N P M R G R S type of sancAras, that are mentioned as vishEShaprayOgas in SSP.

My take is MD composed 2 kritis to show two different faces of the same rAga. I don't see that very unlikely. And probably the availability of these two kritis may be the reason SD mentions these sanchAras as special prayOgas (even though he does not give the notation for EkAmranAthESwarENa).

-Ramakriya

raviraj · Post by **raviraj** » 25 Nov 2007, 20:49

Ramakriya,

1. A very insightful response.Thanks for that alternative perspective on Chaturangini, about MD composing Ekamranathesvarena with a different color. But that still leaves me with questions
as to the raga lakshana difference between SSP & non SSP kritis ( Vegavauhini for instance) of the same raga.

2. I listened to Vid Gayathri's version of Samantha. The version of the krithi was close to Smt Kalpagam 's version.The alapana had lots of SRGM phrases ( avoidable?) making it Naganandini itself & the uttaranga phrases clearly dominated by DNS or PNDNS ( the Nagabharanam arohana murchana phrase). IMVVHO, given the kriti to follow, it would have been appropriate if the artiste had sung with S(M)GMPN(D)NS/SN(D)PMGRS with sparse usage of D3. The rishaba in the arohana is
an avoidable svara to distinguish Samantha from Sankarabharanam, Naganandini & Nagabaranam for the purvanga phrases. The violinist response to Vid Gayathri's alapana thus has avoidable Sankarabharanam phrases. I submit a recording of again Smt Kalpagam mami from an other concert where she opens by playing the murcchana aro/avaro phrases for Samantha, probably fo our benefit

. There again the krithi was Vishvanathena.
http://rapidshare.com/files/72190936/Sa ... _.mp3.html

On a concluding note vivadi ragas always remind me of the legendary Thanjavur Kalyanaraman. In the recording below he launches into a 2 min haunting alapana of Nagandhini preceding Tyagaraja's Sattaleni Dinamulu.

http://rapidshare.com/files/72190282/Sa ... i.mp3.html

An alapana with no trace of Sankarabharanam & an look at the phrases featuring the N3 as the base svara. The violinist , alas, I am unable to figure , elicits a sabash from the master for his sallies in the tara stayi. The kriti that follows and the kalpana svara for the pallavi line speak for themselves.

Coolji can probably post some more from his archives !

Ravi

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Nov 2007, 07:01

raviraj, ramakriya: Thanks for all the education and comparative discussions. Quite illuminating.

Somehow this concert seems to have triggered quite a discussion. I guess the theme of the concert 'rare compositions of well known composers' has something to do with it.

Let me ask a question on the laya side of things.

The poorvikalyAni thirrupuggazh had an intellectual sugunA purushottaman laya dose. She sang that as an "avathAnam" ,with her right hand counting tisra jhampa and her left hand picking up kanda triputa

I just listened to this song. Vid. Gayathri mentions that on her left hand she will keep Kanda jathi Triputa chthsra nadai and on her right hand she will keep Tisra Jathi Jampa Tisra gathi, both totaling 36 sub unit counts. If this was video taped, I would very much like to see her Kriya.

A few questions.

1) Was the thala avaratha completing on both hands at the same time as opposed one taking 1 cycle per avartha of the song and the other taking 2 cycles per avartha of the song. Thisra Jampa is 6 beats per cycle and it will come to 36 subunits only if we consider Thisra Gathi as 6 subunits per beat. The song itself is rendered quite fast and it is very hard for me to do the Thisra Jampa Thisram. If we consider that as 18 subunits, then it is a bit easier with the Thisra jampa side going little slower than ( 2:3 ratio ) than the Khanda triputa.

2) The intriguing thing about this is, it is easy for me to sense the Khanda Triputa Chathusra nadai and keep thala to that. But there is something in the song that makes it different from a normal chathusra nadai song. To get at that, I just wanted to set aside khanda triputa for a second and just focus on the Tisra Jampa Tisra nadai but I could not get it to line up with the stress points in the song.

3) Is this an exercise in thala keeping difficulty/intellect or the two rhythms are inherent in the rendition?

4) Remember the rather contentious discussions a while back on the definition of gathi ( whether the subunit length remains the same or shortens with nadai/gathi bedam). In the context of the Gayathri rendition, the nadai / gathi sub unit length remains the same. Did I get that right? ( I do not want to get into a discussion about which is the right label for what, but just want to make sure I got it right ).

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 02 Dec 2007, 03:52

i. Chaturangini -> As has been pointed out by Ramakriya, EkAmranAthEs'warENa and guruguhabhavAntarangiNI appear to be two distinct flavors of chaturangiNI. Prof. SRJ seems to have interpreted the latter from the SSP while KS mami's version of the former is from Kallidakuruchi Ananthakrishna Iyer, brother of Sundaram Iyer.

This - versions of the same rAga - is not too surprising as Muttuswami Dikshitar has composed similarly in other rAgas such as Ananda BhairavI: Prof. SRJ is fond of contrasting mAnasa guruguha with shuddhadhaivata-heavy kamalAmbA.

ii. As for sAmanta -> the D3 would be indistinguishable from the N2 in a vocal rendition as they occupy the same svara-sthAna. In fact I have the notation of the opening line down (from my classes with KS mami circa 1985) as

S; S d P;-mgpmg | mgrs NS | GMPN || where d is clearly d3=n2, and n=n3

On the subject of sAmanta, Prof SRJ feels that it could have been the progenitor of nIlAmbarI, and posits the ShaTs'ruti-ish dhaivata in Dikshitar's nIlambarI as suggestive.

iii. Ref: Raviraj's query about differences in lakshaNa between SSP and non-SSP kRtis, I don't have an answer, but should point out that KS mami's version of gajAnanayutam has the same lakShaNas and prayOgas (smgm etc.) of vEgavAhinI as her vINApustakadhAriNI.

I would be eager to know the learned opinions (as well as listen to renditions, if available) of Veena Jeyaraaj and Jaysri,on this forum. They must have most of these kRtis in their repertoire, also traceable to the Ambi Dikshitar - Ananthakrishna Iyer branch of the MD lineage.

veenajj · Post by **veenajj** » 02 Dec 2007, 09:58

Dear Ramakrishnan (vainika),

On the sAmanta krithi, we heard mami and yourself play this in our house and it was very similar to what we have learnt. And you are right about the D3 and N2. What is featured in sAmantha is D3, being a janya of the 30th melakartha.

We do not have Ananthakrishna Iyer's notation of EkAmranAthEshwarENa. The only rendition of this that we have heard is that of mami's and it definitely confirms to the notation given in Sundaram Iyer's book (the Kalladaikurichi school). GuruguhabhavAntarangiNI has however been taught to us. As requested by you, we shall try and post our renditions of vishwanAthEna and guruguhabhavAntarangiNI here as soon as possible.

Our versions of gajAnanayutam, vinAyaka vighnanAshaka, vArAhIm vaishnavIm, etc all have the smgm prayOgas of vINApustakadhAriNI.

Regards,
Jeyaraaj & Jaysri

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Dec 2007, 10:20

the D3 would be indistinguishable from the N2 in a vocal rendition as they occupy the same svara-sthAna

Vainika, pardon my naivette...since you mention "in a vocal rendition D3 and N2 are indistinguishable" this begs the question if in instrumental rendition they are different.

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 02 Dec 2007, 23:03

i.

veenajj wrote:As requested by you, we shall try and post our renditions of vishwanAthEna and guruguhabhavAntarangiNI here as soon as possible. Our versions of gajAnanayutam, vinAyaka vighnanAshaka, vArAhIm vaishnavIm, etc all have the smgm prayOgas of vINApustakadhAriNI.

Dear Sri Jeyaraaj and Smt Jaysri, thanks so much for your reply. It would be great to listen to your renditions when you have a chance to post them!

ii.

vasanthakokilam wrote:Vainika, pardon my naivete...since you mention "in a vocal rendition D3 and N2 are indistinguishable" this begs the question if in instrumental rendition they are different.

Oops, I walked into that one, didn't I? I am going to squirm out of it by asking you to ignore the "in a vocal rendition" part of my earlier post. For now, at least...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Dec 2007, 03:23

Vainika: Thanks.

I am trying to make sense out of what raviraj and rbharath wrote what is mentioned in the SSP.

He (SD) further goes on to differ (castigates?) on this krama-sampoorna treatment for Samantha, on the ground that the vivadhi svara (D3) cannot be executed by vocalists with the same felicity as vaineekas in the avarohana

This seems to also imply that D3 is somehow possible for Vainikas but not for Vocalists. That is one of the reasons I was curious about what you said. If you have any further thoughts on what the SSP says about D3 in the context of Samantha, that will be very educational.

rajeshnat wrote...
K.gAyathri mentioned at the end of vishwanAthena rendition tht she rendered samAntA which is also known as nAganandini. IIRC, At the end of the concert she told me that this rAgam samAnta has shades of chAlanAttai and shankarAbharanam(very evident ) too...

The discussion between Raviraj and Ramakriya was quite scholarly and I may not have understood properly. In this krithi, we do not hear much of Shankarabaranam but the alapana has lots of shankarabharanam like usage as Rajesh felt as well. Since there does not seem to be many krithis in this raga or the related ragas, I wonder what the sources for the shankarAbharanam like usages are.

Looking for clues to the Shankarabaranam relationship, Vainika quotes SRJ that sAmantha could have been the progenitor of nilAmbari . That is a definite linkage to Shankarabaranam through nilAmbari even if the krithis do not have any resemblance to Shankarabaranam.
But then Raviraj quotes SRJ that Tillang seems to have subsumed sAmantha. Putting them all together, do sAmantha, niLambari, Tillang have much in common?

Just as an aside, my curiosity is about old time ragas, pre Venkatamakhi (CDP) whose identities are deeply connected with vivadhi prayogams. Till now, I was mainly aware of ragas like Nattai and Varali which was given as the reason why genius categorizers like VM invented the 4 extra symbols to accomodate them. Samantha is an interesting case in this context that it is an ancient raga probably enjoyed the same stature that Shankarabaranam enjoys today and has vivadhi prayogas. If that is all true, it is quite fascinating to note that melody aesthetics of those old times allowed for such a florish of a vivadhi raga.

Having said that, I am a bit hesistant to buy into this fully since the tuning systems themselves have gone through changes over the centuries. I am curious if the vivadhi prayogas themselves grew out of a mutation that is caused by such tuning system changes and over time people developed an aesthetic understanding and liking for those and methods of using them for best aesthetic effect. Arun has extensive knowledge of the old tuning systems and may be he can offer his thoughts if there is anything to this.

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 03 Dec 2007, 15:13

vasanthakokilam wrote:Looking for clues to the Shankarabaranam relationship, Vainika quotes SRJ that sAmantha could have been the progenitor of nilAmbari . That is a definite linkage to Shankarabaranam through nilAmbari even if the krithis do not have any resemblance to Shankarabaranam. But then Raviraj quotes SRJ that Tillang seems to have subsumed sAmantha. Putting them all together, do sAmantha, niLambari, Tillang have much in common?

I don't have much light to shed on these discussions, save to point out that:

- Prof. SRJ also sings an Anamayya piece in sAmanta that sounds less Tillang-ish and uses chatushruti RShabha more substantially. I will search for it and the associated comment on nIlAMbarI among the lec-dems (unless one of you already has it - in which case please post the relevant excerpt).

- SD's statement, as translated by PPN and Vidya, is about the comparative difficulty of rendering the descent phrase s n d p in vocal as compared to veena renditions. While this may be the case, it is a moot point as far as the vis'vanAthEna kRti is concerned as there are no s n d p prayogas, only s d p ones in it.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 03 Dec 2007, 23:08

vasanthakokilam wrote:In this krithi, we do not hear much of Shankarabaranam but the alapana has lots of shankarabharanam like usage as Rajesh felt as well. Since there does not seem to be many krithis in this raga or the related ragas, I wonder what the sources for the shankarAbharanam like usages are.

The roots to this "shankarAbhgarNa" relateness traces at least to Venkatamakhi's time (1680 AD). He describes sAmanta as a sampUrNa rAga having ShankarAbharaNa chAye.

vasanthakokilam wrote:Looking for clues to the Shankarabaranam relationship, Vainika quotes SRJ that sAmantha could have been the progenitor of nilAmbari . That is a definite linkage to Shankarabaranam through nilAmbari even if the krithis do not have any resemblance to Shankarabaranam.
But then Raviraj quotes SRJ that Tillang seems to have subsumed sAmantha. Putting them all together, do sAmantha, niLambari, Tillang have much in common?

Again, we will have to conclude sAmanta has two distinct faces. The one presented in vishvanAthEna - is a canditate that might be replaced by Tilang in popularity. But the other face might be a candidate for takeover

by nIlAmbari.

vasanthakokilam wrote:Just as an aside, my curiosity is about old time ragas, pre Venkatamakhi (CDP) whose identities are deeply connected with vivadhi prayogams. Till now, I was mainly aware of ragas like Nattai and Varali which was given as the reason why genius categorizers like VM invented the 4 extra symbols to accomodate them. Samantha is an interesting case in this context that it is an ancient raga probably enjoyed the same stature that Shankarabaranam enjoys today and has vivadhi prayogas. If that is all true, it is quite fascinating to note that melody aesthetics of those old times allowed for such a florish of a vivadhi raga.

Apart from nATa and varALi, at least few more rAgas such as sAmanta, dEshAkShi and hejjujji seem to have been quite popular in pre CDP times.

-Ramakriya

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Dec 2007, 02:10

vasanthakokilam wrote:Having said that, I am a bit hesistant to buy into this fully since the tuning systems themselves have gone through changes over the centuries. I am curious if the vivadhi prayogas themselves grew out of a mutation that is caused by such tuning system changes and over time people developed an aesthetic understanding and liking for those and methods of using them for best aesthetic effect. .

It is one of those mysteries. In the "hole" in history between Sangitaratnakara and Swamelakalanidhi (although vidyaranya's work is dated between - it is known only through a much later work), many major things appeared to have happened
1. Gramas went away - in the older system ALL ragas were classified based on gramas. The 2 gramas were the cornerstones.
2. Sadja as a tonic came into being - before this i.e in grama system sadja was not as dominant as later.
3. Swarasthanas were shown in more relatable terms (i.e. to today) on veena - but still sort of explained in older terms i.e. # of sruthis. And this straddling between new and old systems appeared to have some logical inconsistencies thus pointing out at possible misinterpretations of older system - but how, why? It is a mystery to me either way you slice it.

Some opine that #1 and #2 were related, or #2 was one of the reason why madyama-grama was done away with.

Regarding #3, IIRC, many of melas in Swaramelakalanidhi (Ramamatya) had what we term as vivadi swaras, and the assignments of ragas to melas are baffling (like well known non-vivaddi ragas to vivadi melas IIRC). They were perhaps baffling even to others then - as venkatamakhin calls them out in brutal fashion.

It is very hard to conclusively say to what extent vivadi swaras were used in the early mela system and of course in the older system (i.e. pre-mela). If I were to take a guess, I would say their usage was sparing until fairly into the mela period - as I do think that their status was "elevated" by the early mela books thus allowing for new possibilities. Now this was perhaps based on some old ragas (like nATTai, varALi and I guess sAmanta) which used them - but I think the new status allowed for a lot more new avenues.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Dec 2007, 02:24

vasanthakokilam wrote:Putting them all together, do sAmantha, niLambari, Tillang have much in common?

In sAmanta, if D3 is mainly appears as s d p, and is also avoided in avarohana for samanta (and hence p n3 s), it is going to be just like tilang - wouldnt it (p n3 S, and S n2 p)?

(I also thought in general in vivadi ragas, the vivadi swara will be used in vivadi context but I guess not?)

nIlAmbari allows n2 (p d2 n2 d2 ...) It also is p n3 S in arohana. So you compare to sAmanta with rare to no d3 in arohana (and thus also p n3 S), and perhaps use of d3/n2 in more non vivadi contexts in both, then the connection between the two becomes tangible.

But melodically, in today's terms I am not able to perceive a connection. But I do remember listening to a Prof SRJ's lec-demo where he mentions the connection. Need to see where it is.

davalangi · Post by **davalangi** » 05 Dec 2007, 05:52

Vainika / Arunk - Here are the relevant SRJ excerpts. I think the nIlAmbari piece is from a Music Academy workshop held back in 1994/5 timeframe. I have never heard him sing this krithi in any concert (though he has sung tyAgarAjam bhajEham)

http://rapidshare.de/files/37976142/SRJ ... a.mp3.html
http://rapidshare.de/files/37976143/SRJ ... a.mp3.html
http://rapidshare.de/files/37976144/SRJ ... i.mp3.html