And our musicians find it hard to sing in other languages!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 07 Sep 2007, 19:21

http://www.hindu.com/fr/2007/09/07/stor ... 760200.htm

An Israeli who has learnt SI languages!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 07 Sep 2007, 20:01

Why the cheap shot?

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 10 Sep 2007, 09:25

Rshankar,

I met David Shulman at a function in Montreal a few years ago. He is an amazing scholar with a deep knowledge of tamizh and telugu literature. Even more impressive is that he can sing "Mayatita swarupini" with perfect tone, shruti alignment with gamakas in all the right places. He was a recipient of the MacArthur "genius" prize some years ago (along with my doctoral advisor.... which is how I came to meet him).

Interestingly, one of Shulman's close collaborators in an Indian historian by name Sanjay Subramanyam (http://www.history.ucla.edu/people/faculty?lid=3586). No relation to the Sanjay that is better known in this forum.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 10 Sep 2007, 16:23

Sanjay Subrahmanyam is one of the foremost scholars on Indian history and I have often wondered about the curious co-incidence. Perhaps there is something in the name...

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 10 Sep 2007, 18:23

Mahavishnu,
Thanks for sharing that!

Vijay,
You are moving away from the bard (and Ms Rowling for that matter), when you attribute 'powers' to a name!:lol:

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 10 Sep 2007, 18:57

Ravi, neither Sanjay is a blossoming rose anymore!! Alas I haven't read Rowling so I am unable to complete my defence

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 10 Sep 2007, 20:54

vijay wrote:Sanjay Subrahmanyam is one of the foremost scholars on Indian history and I have often wondered about the curious co-incidence. Perhaps there is something in the name...

The singer is Sanjay Subrahmanyan

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Sep 2007, 03:34

Ah! Now for the power of the name subrahmanyan, subrahmanyam, subramaniam, subramanian--we interchange them freely and spell them incorrectly when it comes to one individual or the other. The names kandan and vElan don't suffer such misnomer...

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 02 Oct 2007, 09:23

I have a basic doubt for quite sometime. Is there a single hinudstani musician who has learnt carnatic music and performed it on the stage. TVG , MSG are the few artistes who have mastered hindustani music . Just curious to know. Can they atleast identify carnatic ragas viz kalayani, sankarabaranam , shanumukhapriya etc

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 02 Oct 2007, 15:14

Good question althoguh I am not sure whether it belongs to this thread...

There are schools which have been influenced by CM - Kirana is the most prominent. Abdul Karim Khan founder of the Gharana has renedered a version of Rama Nee SAmanamevaru which is available online! BHimsen Joshi is from North Karnataka and I believe familiar to some extent with CM. Prabha Atre also from the school has also mentioned her study of our music.

As far as other schools are concerned, they do look to the south as a source for ragas - Kiravani, Charukeshi Simhendramadhyamam, Lathangi are some of the ragas that have been successfully adapted by HM to the extent that they are now standard presentation items, especially for instrumentalists.

Performance wise however, the list is rather short. One notable exception is Ajoy Chakraborty who has been learning and hopes to perform a full fledged concert someday! Otherwise there is a geneal air of hubris about HM musicians when it comes to CM, much of which is founded on sheer ignorance and a queer notion that our music primarily consists of rendering pre-composed kriithis with allusions to the unorthodoxy of certain gamakas which are employed in CM. Unlike their CM counterparts, one find little catholicism and intellectual curiosity in short supply in our Hindustani viwans.

In summary there are many south Indian who have excelled in HM - and this includes vocalists, instrumentalists as well as percussionists whereas one is hard pressed to find any parallels in CM whereas there are a number foriegners who have left their mark on CM! Sad state of affairs indeed...

As to whether they can identify Kalyani/Shankarabharanam etc. the gamakas would present difficulties to most vidwans but those with a good ear should be able to figure out the melodic structure of most ragas - but the Thodi gandharam for instance would entail a fair bit or head scratching!

matterwaves · Post by **matterwaves** » 03 Oct 2007, 21:40

Im sorry to drag this in this direction but i cant stop commenting that this is true in all other aspects as well..Be it language or even festivals.. i see my bangalorean cousins by -eart puky hindi film songs even b4 they are released, thinking of 'Kadva chaut' or something like that(some festival that i guess) and i have had NI friends who have been living in Bangalore/South for 2 decades and dont know a bit about our language/ music etc..
Their sense of hubris gets nauseating when they start equating anything in NI culture to 'national' and 'Indian' (as in India Intnl film festival(meaning Hindi only), National language(u know what), Indian classical music(meaning HM only), the list continues....

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Oct 2007, 22:37

matterwaves, let us NOT drag the conversation in the direction you are trying to drag. Thanks.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 03 Oct 2007, 22:50

thanjavooran wrote:I have a basic doubt for quite sometime. Is there a single hinudstani musician who has learnt carnatic music and performed it on the stage. TVG , MSG are the few artistes who have mastered hindustani music .

Even though I do not know this for sure, I can make some educated guess.

Gangubai Hanagal's mother was a Karnataka sangeeta vidushi - I expect Gangubai to have known karnataka sangeeta to some extent at least.

thanjavooran wrote:Can they atleast identify carnatic ragas viz kalayani, sankarabaranam , shanumukhapriya etc

I am sure performing artists (of hindustani) identify rAgas like kalyani and shankarabharaNa, just like we, lay rasikas, can identify rAgas like pooriya dhanashrI and yaman

Coming to facts, I actually know some hindustani performing artists, and surely they know thw common rAgas from karnataka sangIta.

-Ramakriya

Ashwin · Post by **Ashwin** » 04 Oct 2007, 00:20

thanjavooran wrote:I have a basic doubt for quite sometime. Is there a single hinudstani musician who has learnt carnatic music and performed it on the stage. TVG , MSG are the few artistes who have mastered hindustani music . Just curious to know. Can they atleast identify carnatic ragas viz kalayani, sankarabaranam , shanumukhapriya etc

Pt. Ajoy Chakraborty has adopted Shri Balamuralikrishna as his Guru since a few years back, and now sings Carnatic music in his concerts too. Last weekend I attended a `jugalbandhi' performance of his along with BMK Sir in Buffalo and enjoyed it very much. Pt. Ajoy told me himself that his daughter, Kaushiki, studies from BMK Sir and gives full-fledged Carnatic concerts complete with varNam, kRti-s, RTP, etc. Here are some links on the same subject:

http://www.thehindujobs.com/thehindu/fr ... 830400.htm
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mp/2 ... 350800.htm
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mp/2 ... 500800.htm

Ashwin

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 04 Oct 2007, 00:37

Ashwin,

Do you happen to know if Dr BMK is performing in SF bay area? Any pointers?

-Ramakriya

Ashwin · Post by **Ashwin** » 04 Oct 2007, 01:36

Ramakriya,

Im not aware of his touring schedule, but I can find out for you. Please give me a couple of days.

Ashwin

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 21 Oct 2007, 16:14

many stalwart members have voiced their views in this regard . i feel that the question for musicians with tamil as mother tongue should be whether they find it hard to sing tamil songs, which they do as pickles for curd bath .no disrespect to other languages, let us remember Bharatiyar who has stated 'sundara telungile" i I think I am not touching a cotroversial subject gobilalitha

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 08 Dec 2007, 20:36

An interesting article in hindu dt 1st dec 07 . The link is self explanatory as regs to the attitude of HM pundits/ ustads etc. towards CM
http://www.hindu.com/ms/2007/12/01/stor ... 210600.htm

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 08 Dec 2007, 20:40

The following quote from the cited article sums it all:
"Money, and the power it brings with it, rules everything else, even appreciation of music."

Hope CM doesn't reach this nadir.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 08 Dec 2007, 21:48

The article makes a basic mistake that the Crude North Indian is essentially different from the highly evolved South Indian ... and goes on to postulate that the North Indian is not keeping up his end of the bargain.

The question is a bit more complex than the author would like us to believe.
And certainly it has nothing to do with money power.
The North Indian musician's Money power derives its strength from the vaster geographical area it covers -Much like the way Hollywood commands a huge strength on the basis of its international appeal.
But we dont end up saying "while we have learnt to appreciate Gregory Peck, it is unfair that Americans do not pay us back by watching Sivaji Ganesan.
Mind you , I am not talking about abilities , but purely vastness of appeal.

The big question can be answered with a bit of unbiased, persevering questioning .The answers could be highly debatable , but that is atleast a starting point.
A starting point for whom ?
Somebody who wants to expand this base,obviously.But then CM is losing ground even in its own bastion.To western Influences.

My own theory is that HM is more popular in appeal because of its simplicity.Leaving aside Musicians like Mansoor who specailised in rare ragas, the core of the subject is relatively simple to grasp.The complexities arises as a few elements start getting built into the performance.
The length of a rendering is one such example.Take Kishori Amonkars 70 minute plus renderings(Her 72 minute commercial hamsadhwani is a classic example) which are common in her concerts.The ability to develop a raga without a repetition of a phrase and unravel it slowly , note by note, creating a craving in the listener, for the next step ,is an art which requires experience on the part of the listener too.

Just take a look around in a Chennai sabha when a HM performance is on.
You can hear the whispers without fail - enna sruthi shuddham>>>>
And then there is a craving for the Teen taal bandish to start.A tharana would make it a merry evening.
I am not trying to run down a South Indian -HM-audience , but to claim that southerners have taken to HM because of a catholicity in tastes , is not borne out by what I see in the audience.

Decades ago , I wrestled with a lot of smugness from the core fraternity idolising CM--facing the question ....
You, a Kulkarni , how can you appreciate CM ?
This was a subject I discussed at length with Lalgudi Jayaraman in the context of the Pan Indian image some CM Musicians had before the 90s- artists like himself, BMK , MLV , Chittibabu who moved out of their safe zones and gave a chap like me a taste of CM when it mattered most.
While a good % were uncomfortable outside Mylapore.
To my simple mind HM is just one great experience , very often depending on the moment for the depth in appeal , but two dimensioned.
At the most three dimensioned.

CM , on the other hand is a brilliant mosaic and extremely Complex.In my three decades of listening to CM I must admit that CM astonishes me with its myriad hues , forcing me too believe that it does take several janmas to master it.

HM on the other hand perhaps requires a good Talent and a good Guru.
And One Janma.

My response is just a listeners perspective.But I strongly believe that the Author who claims to be a Performer in both styles , has got her facts all wrong.
Writer-Performers like Sakunthala Narasimhan, in the past, have done much greater justice to this subject , but sadly I cannot lay my hands on her articles.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 09 Dec 2007, 11:00

Let us visualise an open-minded Northerner at a Carnatic concert. Remember, he is used to the first few minutes of quiet music with sustained notes, meends or jharus, a low key harmonium, a non-intrusive tabla and the soothing sound of the tanpura! Now switch scenes to a Carnatic concert. The singer begins with a brisk varnam or appropriate kriti and a number of things happen - simultaneously. There is the singer keeping talam; there are lots of words, the mridangist and the violinist follow the singer, reproducing every sangati, creating a certain energy level - viruviruppu. Somewhere in all this the tanpura is lost! There is a gaiety, even festivity, which often characterises a Carnatic concert, rarely found in a Hindustani concert. It is only natural that the Northerner is bewildered.

A Southerner at a Hindustani concert has less to contend with, although this is not to say it is less complex. The build up, both in Khayal and Dhrupad music, is gradual and sophisticated. Doubtless, our Southerner will wonder when, or whether at all, the singer is going to move on beyond that mandra nishadha!

Of course, there is the sahitya aspect. A Carnatic concert lays great emphasis on kriti-s, which is actually a hurdle for the Northerner; but one should surely be able to appreciate a song in any language and our kriti-s are not just humdrum songs!

Granted, that any form of music, especially “art music,” demands constant exposure and some initiation on the part of the listener, it is arguable that it is easier for Hindustani music to grow on the outsider. Carnatic music presents a tougher shell. But this does not mean it is impenetrable to an outsider. Westerners have learnt to appreciate it, why, even perform creditably. But effort needs to be put in, and North Indians, to their discredit, are simply not willing to try to overcome the initial roadblocks in appreciating Carnatic music.

The article says the same thing that you are saying. I don't think the author has got his basic wrong.

The deep rooted apathy about anything south of vindyas is one of the reasons why an avearge NI is not willing to travel that extra mile to appreciate CM

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 09 Dec 2007, 11:37

we all know that there is a general tendency not only hm musicians, but north indians to think that south indians are inferior in all respects most of them do not know south of vindhyas there are 4 states and all are not madhrasis,as they think , their pronunciations of tamil words are atrocious. nobody pronounces neiveli as neiveli but naivveli gobilalitha

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 09 Dec 2007, 12:09

The deep rooted apathy about anything south of vindyas is one of the reasons why an avearge NI is not willing to travel that extra mile to appreciate CM

This is where I differ.
And that is what is basically wrong.
With so many cross cultutal influences , it is going to be increasingly difficult to locate a stereotype.
I lived for 14 years in bihar , the next 12 in karnataka and last 24 in tamilnadu.
The first thing I did after coming to Chennai was to locate karnataka sangha in tnagar and write an ecstatic letter to my dad.
My dad wrote back saying , it is pointless to stray away from home , if you need that sangha so badly
When I went against the run and used to say no to Baby-sitting duties (Accepted gleefully by young engineers in Telco) in the homes of Seniors from their respective states.Love your state as much as you like , but come back a tamilian to me as long you live in tamilnadu.

That is my point .
Make it comfortable and easy for the OTHERS to partake .That is the challenge.
Instead of harping on Compensation matters.
I work with 5 Gujarathis on my Company Board and they all have a very healthy respect for a South Indians Intelligence and professionalism .
In fact they all sincerely believe we are too intelligent, for comfort.

But look at it this way, a krithi like Endaro Mahanubhavulu ,can put off the most eager of aspirants.
My Mama used to complain (as if I did not have much to memorize in my classes)
I am surprised that members are not addressing the other issues which can be a stumbling block, to start with.
The large number of Dieties, Goddesses.
The multilayered Stories and Puranas that serve a backdrop.
An approach to problems in life which , seen in a totally different context, can be traced to escapism.
The fact that the so called South of vindhyas have seen relatively less invasion and hence less cross cultural influences(before the Technological revolution).
I can pick a South Indian with a North Indian experience from a Mile !

Pray how many of our artist members have picked up a krithi on Contemporary themes(so beautifully crafted by Sangeethrasik) and performed it.I bet SR has not led a cocooned life in the south and that is what enables him to reach to out to these new Vistas.

We can only make some progress , if we can have an open mind and not be guided by a few beliefs that seem to fit the puzzle , very correctly.
as Charles Laughton says ,halfway through the investigations in "Witness for the Prosecution"
the plot is just TOO PERFECT FOR COMFORT.REAL LIFE IS NEVER THAT PERFECT.
So let us look at some other reasons, please.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 09 Dec 2007, 13:03

Make it comfortable and easy for the OTHERS to partake .That is the challenge.

CM , on the other hand is a brilliant mosaic and extremely Complex.In my three decades of listening to CM I must admit that CM astonishes me with its myriad hues , forcing me too believe that it does take several janmas to master it.

The question is how do you simplify or whether at all you should simplify

If an art is complex , the rasika should raise his level to appreciate it. To do that he has to first understand that there is some thing invaluable available outside his horizon and he has to go that extra mile to savour it.

What is shocking is that almost all CM concerts in the north (add west & east also) are arranged by SI associations and most of the music organisers in north ignore CM. Mind you these are not average folks but people with a good knowledge and interest in music. Even if they are not willing to enjoy and propagate CM , make a sincere effort to understand and appreciate CM , well I can call it apathy only.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 09 Dec 2007, 13:07

I am surprised that members are not addressing the other issues which can be a stumbling block, to start with.
The large number of Dieties, Goddesses.
The multilayered Stories and Puranas that serve a backdrop.
An approach to problems in life which , seen in a totally different context, can be traced to escapism.

These are Indian traits not necessarily south or north and in no way prevents an Indian from enjoying CM. May be true for westner

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 09 Dec 2007, 13:46

Indian traits

Yes,But you forget that these traits are terribly mixed up with music in CM and
not at all mixed up in HM.

In HM , themes which appear on the fringes (Thukkadas, like Bhajans, I mean)
are the Core Issue in CM.
And in CM ,themes which appear on the fringes(liking pining for your lady love) , are at the centre of the Core in HM.
BGAK and Munawar (Father -Son) singing together the Lines "aaj more ghar na aye balama'
is a balm for pained souls.

TNS and Krishna singing the same lines on a CM platform today, would be a Joke.

But then if you are convinced beyond doubt that it is indeed a North Idnian apathy and nothing else , I am willing to let it remain as it is.
Two decades ago , I had the mortification of watching a Grand old man from kumbakonam ,have a heart attack when I was waiting for his son (my friend) at his home.The old man ( a man of letters, who taught English all his life) would not allow me to touch him and help him to the Hospital , openly wondering if I was worthy of being touched , since he was not sure from where I came and what I was.Sure enough he lost the Golden band of time and soon joined his maker.
That was my first and last lesson in understanding how deep prejudices and preconcieved notions can be . And I have never risked it again.Since then.
And I will not risk it again , now.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Dec 2007, 13:57

Wow, this thread has become alive and that too with a 'patti manram' like debate.

Yes,But you forget that these traits are terribly mixed up with music in CM and
not at all mixed up in HM.

I had the same thought.

To test the North of the Vindyas apathy theory, how about this: Consider the group of Sanskrit pundits from Varanasi/Uttar Pradesh/Kashmir who like HM. Do they relate to CM musicians singing MD's compositions? If they are not familiar yet with MD, can they be turned into liking MD's compositions? I do not not know the answer since I just came up with this as a hypothetical case.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 09 Dec 2007, 14:25

To test the North of the Vindyas apathy theory, how about this: Consider the group of Sanskrit pundits from Varanasi/Uttar Pradesh/Kashmir who like HM. Do they relate to CM musicians singing MD's compositions? If they are not familiar yet with MD, can they be turned into liking MD's compositions? I do not not know the answer since I just came up with this as a hypothetical case.

But then these compositions are about deities (temples from SI)

More appropriate question would be-
What about the appreciation of the musical value in those compositions - apart from language, theme etc.
and Tyagaraja's compositions are philosophical, aren't they? and very musical..

I think we will get into another debate about bhakti etc.

As for the compositions of SR I think some of us appreciated when they were posted. There again, personally, I looked at the musical value - to a lesser extent- the theme (which I think is similar to MD except it is on people we all know). They were very well-crafted compositions in sanskrit

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 09 Dec 2007, 14:26

Excellent debate Coolji/Rajumds - do keep it going...I will chip in with my own opinions in some time...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Dec 2007, 14:38

But then these compositions are about deities (temples from SI)

Quite right. That is why I set up the hypothetical as Religious minded and HM loving sanksrit scholars from the North relating to MD's CM. I am of course assuming that they will readily understand MD's compositions and like them for its sheer sanskrit constructions and religious themes even if it refers to SI temples ( if not true, that opens up a separate topic: North Indian apathy to SI Hinduism

ooch!! ). Then only barrier to cross is from HM to CM. May be they can be eased in with the grand Parimala Ranganatham in Hamir Kalyani. I am picking MD for good reasons, his works contribute so much to such Pan-Indian cultural integration.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 09 Dec 2007, 14:45

. I am of course assuming that they will readily understand MD's compositions and like them for its sheer sanskrit constructions

I wondered about it too many times. Now what about Swati Tirunal's compositions ?

Just noticed that this thread is titled "why our musicians find it difficult to sing in other languages"
"Musicians" now refers to North and south in the current debate.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Dec 2007, 14:59

VK,
What if it were paSupatEsVaram, the temple in kASmIram??I

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 09 Dec 2007, 15:02

VK this one is for you.
http://rapidshare.com/files/75334281/Fr ... enares.mp3

Vijay - Yes I know you are busy with the Season.I just cant help spamming here with my posts- Its my Broken Leg !!!You know that.
will wait for you.
Sujiram
Sometime later I will introduce a Bombay Based Cm artist to this forum.Teaming up with her husband, they are a phenomenal combination, if one has the right eyes to see.
They run programs all over Maharastra out of their Love for CM.
and how do they start , to get a crowd?
with a Hm concert and slowly gliding into CM , with minimal tutorials.

That is the kind of effort I am talking about.
And let me tell you , they speak of Hard work.Very hard work.and lack of sponsors too.
And she is just not an amatuer artist dabbling in her passion.
She is a performing artist, represented India abroad, and has a full fledged Program designed on the Women Composers in CM-which is part slide shows, part movie,part lecture etc.

Dont ask me why it was never held in Chennai , yet.
I will have to fall back on the subject of my earlier posts.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 09 Dec 2007, 15:12

Sujiram
Sometime later I will introduce a Bombay Based Cm artist to this forum.Teaming up with her husband, they are a phenomenal combination, if one has the right eyes to see.
They run programs all over Maharastra out of their Love for CM.
and how do they start , to get a crowd?
with a Hm concert and slowly gliding into CM , with minimal tutorials.

Coolkarni ,
very nice to hear that. This appraoch is indeed commendable.
We do have a maharastrian in the place where I live who had intial training in CM and has put her son in mridangam class.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Dec 2007, 15:19

VK this one is for you.
http://rapidshare.com/files/75334281/Fr â€¦ enares.mp3

Oh my.. I say varanasi and MD and there you are, with the most appropriate track and very much related to this discussion.

Very nice rendition with crisp pronounciation and singing with ease by this HM artist.

As Arasi mentioned, paSupatEsVaram (Subapantuvarali ? ) would be a good gateway song too.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 09 Dec 2007, 15:21

Vk
If I can have my way in such matters, i would like to carry my archive with me into my next Janma and be an Internet jockey-Thats what my wife calls me now, anyway

will pull out more rabbits as and when I am cornered !

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 09 Dec 2007, 15:24

http://rapidshare.com/files/75334281/Fr â€¦ enares.mp3

Performers like these surely can bring the northern rasikas to listen to CM

It will certainly take more effort on rasikas themselves to listen to pure CM

Thanks to Channulal Mishra and to You Coolkarni!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Dec 2007, 15:26

VK,
The gift was shared.
Sab cEEZ tO sIkhnA cAhiyE! Yes, one has to learn what all one can, as he says. vAtApi gaNapait goes on a merry procession here.
Well, now that Santa is around, a broken leg does not stop him from taking sleigh rides in delivering the presents

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 09 Dec 2007, 15:26

Thanks to nnramya from Pune who brought this album to my attention.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Dec 2007, 15:37

Internet Jockey - I like that phrase and quite appropriate title for you, Kji. Having the archive is one thing, but knowing what is in there and pulling out related and relevant rabbits like this one on moment's notice, that is what IJs are made of!! ( and an order of magnitude better than what a typical RJ or a VJ would/can do )

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 09 Dec 2007, 19:17

Sometime later I will introduce a Bombay Based Cm artist to this forum.Teaming up with her husband, they are a phenomenal combination, if one has the right eyes to see.
They run programs all over Maharastra out of their Love for CM.
and how do they start , to get a crowd?
with a Hm concert and slowly gliding into CM , with minimal tutorials.

This is the extra mile I was talking about. The best way will be the performer travelling half the distance and entice the rasika to travel the other half.

Again you call it prejudice or mind set I still stongly feel that CM is not given its due. The mistake may be with our vidwans in failing to do what the couple you mentioned do.

My own cousins born and brought up in north feel that HM is far superior to CM even without an attempt to atleast give it a try.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 09 Dec 2007, 19:26

But then if you are convinced beyond doubt that it is indeed a North Idnian apathy and nothing else , I am willing to let it remain as it is.

I am open and prepared to be convinced if you can give me solid reasons why CM is not getting its due. I am not talking about average citizens but about people who are well versed in Music.

That was my first and last lesson in understanding how deep prejudices and preconcieved notions can be

Exactly my view about north's view of CM

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 09 Dec 2007, 20:14

Part of the reason for the so called north-south divide can, and should be placed on the vindhyAs. They did form a sort of barrier 'protecting' the south from many of the influences that went into shaping the 'different' culture in the north. The Persian influence (mughal) did a lot to shear the previously 'hindu religious' associations of many art forms, and the artists and the art forms, to survive, took on a more 'romantic', courtly (darbArI) character, because, now, the patrons were the kings who were, if not forcing people to convert, were surely very intolerant of any other religious view but theirs. During this very period (a matter of a few centuries, if I understand correctly), the hindu religion in South India began to use art and culture as a cloak to protect itself - and paved the way for the musical evolution of nAmasankIrtana-kIrtana-kriti and SrI tyAgarAja, and the rest of the trinity did their immortal part to enshrine religion/religious beliefs/spiritual stories firmly with this genre of music. This is explained briefly in Prof William Jackson's book on tyAgarAja, and also in some conversations I have had with him. [Incidentally, one of the main motivations for Bill to go to India to research this genre was hearing Smt. Subbulakshmi sing at Wesleyan many years ago.] So, this may explain why in HM the religious brouhaha is relegated to the fringes while it is at the core of the CM scene.
A similar explanation for the evolution of kathak into a nrittA predominant art form is possible, while bharatanATyam/sadir retained both nritta and religious mimetic portions in balance.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 09 Dec 2007, 20:24

http://www.medieval.org/music/world/carnatic/cmc.html

A nice article by Todd M McComb on "Why Carnatic Music"

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Dec 2007, 21:52

Shankar
That is a historically accurate, succinct critical analysis. But then how do we break out of this 'golden' bondage ?

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 09 Dec 2007, 22:04

very nice analysis rshankar

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 09 Dec 2007, 22:26

the hindu religion in South India began to use art and culture as a cloak to protect itself

rs,
This IMHO is slighting the spontaneity of great personages of that age. I used the term 'personages' because some scoff at and ridicule the term 'Saint'.

At the political level Shivaji resisted the Muslim invasion and the culmination of that resistance is Indian Independence struggle and our present enjoyment of freedom. Would you call that also as a 'cloak'? Isn't it awakening?

religious brouhaha.

I humbly point out that this is THE elitism of CM - those who are well-versed in CM appropriating music to themselves and making inaccessible to the common man.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 09 Dec 2007, 22:54

"...if instead of dying of thirst and drinking dirty ditch water elsewhere out of the blindness of ignorance, they are being called to go and drink from the eternal fountain which is flowing perennially by their own home - if anything has been done to rouse our people towards action, to make them understand that in everything, religion and religion alone is the life of India, and when that goes India will die, in spite of politics, in spite of social reforms, in spite of Kubera's wealth poured upon the head of every one of her children ....."

(Page 188)

"....that this nation has lived on, in spite of hundreds of years of persecution, in spite of nearly a thousand years of foreign rule and foreign oppression. This nation still lives; the raison d'etre is it still holds to God, to treasure-house of religion and spirituality."

(Page 189)

Selections from Svami Vivekananda - Advaita Ashrama
(For complete works of Vivekananda - http://firehead.org/~pturing/occult/viv ... _frame.htm)

And call it 'golden bondage'?

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 10 Dec 2007, 14:28

arasi wrote:Well, now that Santa is around, a broken leg does not stop him from taking sleigh rides in delivering the presents

Fortunately our Santa is there for the whole year. Not just for the Christmas season.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 10 Dec 2007, 14:36

whole year-YES
But with a Change from Dec 13th
Only weekends
Plus 30 minutes ration on weekdays