Innovations in pallavi singing

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Dec 2007, 14:20

Polynadai Pallavis - Poorvangam in one nadai and uttarangam in another nadai : Musicians do this and I am not sure if this is a recent innovation or not but just throwing it our here for comments.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Dec 2007, 18:27

Polynadai --- now there's a word with an interesting (multi-continental?) etymology!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Dec 2007, 20:20

A novelty would be a PTR. Start with the Pallavi do nereval and svarams (only main ragam) followed by taanam and finish off with raga aalaapana with excursions into multiple ragas. Incidentally the Tani may precede all (so call it TPTR) which will ensure a captive audience

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Dec 2007, 00:04

Nick: If you ever find that word in the Dictionary in 20 years, you know where you heard it first

CML: Logical extension of TPTR would lead to the audience leaving the auditorium first

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 16 Dec 2007, 07:08

VR: I attended a lec-dem by Prof. TR Subrahmanyam last month on the comparison between pallavis of the past with those of the present. He first asked if it was posible for a layman to discern the rendition of RTP from say, that of a kriti, tillana, padam or javali.. and someone in his audience quipped "Of course, from the tense look on the faces of the accompanying artistes!" (His student Dr. Radha Venkatachalam is scheduled to present a lec-dem on the same topic during the Dec season in Chennai). One of the fascinating developments TRS highlighted was the inclusion of rhythmic syllables into the sahitya in the form of yatis (gopuchha / srotovaha) with contrasting patterns employed in the poorvaanga and uttaraanga - say, tarikitajham (5), takitajham (4), takajham (3), tajham (2)... He illustrated interesting patterns of niraval and corresponding lead up to the arudi. TRS credited Lalgudi Jayaraman and Mangalampalli Balamuralikrishna with several innovations in RTP during his speech.

VK: There is a school of thought which contends that the "polynadai" pallavis flouts a basic rule - the sasabda and nisabda kriyas of a tala must be uniform - and hence does not approve of it. For example, while singing a pallavi in chaturashra nadai, chaturashra tisram within the same aavartanam is permissible. This is different from executing tisram where you would have to sing the pallavi thrice to return to the original eduppu. Hope laya experts on our forum could clarify this further.

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 17 Dec 2007, 16:02

VR: You may enjoy the Kalyani RTP (post #97)

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1603&p=4

Jigyaasa · Post by **Jigyaasa** » 31 Jul 2008, 15:32

I've heard od TNS singing bhairavi-sindhubhairavi RTP, vasanta-bhairavi-vasantabhairavi and nATa-kurinji-nATTakurinji... But has anyone tried kannaDa-gauLa-kannaDagauLa...? Seemed like a good idea cuz the rAgas are very different from each other n they all do have some scope for elaboration (right?:P)

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 01 Aug 2008, 10:14

Jigyaasa wrote:I've heard od TNS singing bhairavi-sindhubhairavi RTP, vasanta-bhairavi-vasantabhairavi and nATa-kurinji-nATTakurinji... But has anyone tried kannaDa-gauLa-kannaDagauLa...? Seemed like a good idea cuz the rAgas are very different from each other n they all do have some scope for elaboration (right?:P)

i have heard a kEdAram - gauLA - kEdAragauLa pallavi sometime back. Smt Manda Sudharani sang it at Nanganallur Anjaneyar temple.

if one could try kannaDa - gauLa - kannaDagauLa.. y not combs like Ahiri - bhairavi - Ahirbhairav or kuntaLam - varALi - kuntaLavarALi etc...

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 01 Aug 2008, 10:19

speaking of polynadai pallavi, one can find a dkj music academy concert in sangeethapriya i believe with vvs and uks as accompanists.... he sings a beautiful rtp in thodi.. the pallavi set to basic Adhi thAlam structure but the first half is thisram and the secind half khandam..... eduppu is 4 aksharas after samam..... he has sung it in the beautiful naina pillai tradition......

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 01 Aug 2008, 11:15

I have seen Sudha Ragunathan demonstrate a pancha-nadai pallavi which is in Khanda Jathi Eka tala but each beat is a different nadai (Tisra, Chatusra, Khanda, Misra and Sankeerna). I guess this is the classic 'poly-nadai' tala.

Jigyaasa · Post by **Jigyaasa** » 01 Aug 2008, 11:30

rbharath wrote
i have heard a kEdAram - gauLA - kEdAragauLa pallavi sometime back. Smt Manda Sudharani sang it at Nanganallur Anjaneyar temple.

if one could try kannaDa - gauLa - kannaDagauLa.. y not combs like Ahiri - bhairavi - Ahirbhairav or kuntaLam - varALi - kuntaLavarALi etc...

kEdAram-gauLa-kEdAragauLa sounds like a good idea too... But I'm wondering if all the 3 ragas in such combo pallavis should be given equal weightage or should the emphasis should be only on the last one? For instance, in the TNS pallavi (the lyric is siranda nATTai kurinji enbAr engaLadu) I was referring to earlier, nATakurinji is the one treated most elaborately. Sometimes the last one doesn't seem like it has enuf scope for delineation as the others (say kuntala-varALi-kuntalavarALi) or all 3 may fall into that category... And an RTP including Ahirbhairav...? (not really my cup of tea

) Btw the kuntaLam you've referred to is the asampUrNa mELA in which Dikshitar has composed shrI sugandhikuntalAmbikE, right? Or is there any other kuntaLam?

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 01 Aug 2008, 11:36

Jigyaasa wrote:
rbharath wrote
i have heard a kEdAram - gauLA - kEdAragauLa pallavi sometime back. Smt Manda Sudharani sang it at Nanganallur Anjaneyar temple.

if one could try kannaDa - gauLa - kannaDagauLa.. y not combs like Ahiri - bhairavi - Ahirbhairav or kuntaLam - varALi - kuntaLavarALi etc...
kEdAram-gauLa-kEdAragauLa sounds like a good idea too... But I'm wondering if all the 3 ragas in such combo pallavis should be given equal weightage or should the emphasis should be only on the last one? For instance, in the TNS pallavi (the lyric is siranda nATTai kurinji enbAr engaLadu) I was referring to earlier, nATakurinji is the one treated most elaborately. Sometimes the last one doesn't seem like it has enuf scope for delineation as the others (say kuntala-varALi-kuntalavarALi) or all 3 may fall into that category... And an RTP including Ahirbhairav...? (not really my cup of tea ) Btw the kuntaLam you've referred to is the asampUrNa mELA in which Dikshitar has composed shrI sugandhikuntalAmbikE, right? Or is there any other kuntaLam?

the kEdAram - gauLa - kEdAragauLa pallavi i heard had equal portions of all the 3 ragams. The pallavi was set to catusra jAti aTa tALam and each ragam for 1/3rd of the taLam. The AlApanai and tanam was also sung in all the 3 ragams.

in both the combos i had mentioned, there is indeed a big ragam, viz., bhairavi and varALi.

i was refering to the asampUrNa mELam kuntaLam only. 61st mELam i think.

Ahirbhairav, well.. its personal choice. i like the ragam.

Jigyaasa · Post by **Jigyaasa** » 02 Aug 2008, 19:23

We could go on with quite a few others... sAlagam-bhairavi-sAlagabhairavi, kalyANI-vasantA-kalyANavasantam...
N I was thinking of a pallavi which describes the Lord as sUryachandrAgninEtra where the constituent rAgas could be sUryakAntam, chandrajyOti and agnikOpam (this one sounded a lil far-fetched

)

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 17 Aug 2008, 18:34

vasanthakokilam wrote:CML: Logical extension of TPTR would lead to the audience leaving the auditorium first

I don't think so. In fact, I think they should have some heavy items in the post thani session also, so that people sit through the tani waiting for the remaining concert! And a PTR would be one such thing!

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 17 Aug 2008, 18:39

knandago wrote:VK: There is a school of thought which contends that the "polynadai" pallavis flouts a basic rule - the sasabda and nisabda kriyas of a tala must be uniform - and hence does not approve of it.

I would have more of a problem with Sankari Sankuru than with pal-naDai pallavis.

And also with tiSra rendition of pallavis. Done the Sabda kriyas themselves change in tiSra rendition?

Furthermore, don't tanis always include naDai changes? The "niSabda" kriyas change for that ... though the percussionist performs those niSabda kriyas whereas the main performers don't do them ... in effect, a kriya that is both Sabda and niSabda is changing.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Aug 2008, 21:22

though the percussionist performs those niSabda kriyas whereas the main performers don't do them

Srikant: Well, the main performer does do them by producing music during Nisabda kriya. That is the parallel comparison to what the percussionist does. If you are thinking about just thala keeping, that is true, but I have asked experts here many times about the semantics ( musical signifiance) of the angas and kriyas. The tentative conclusion I have come to is, it is an external representation of the rhythm for organizational purposes. Mridangists are not bound by them for the most part and composers are not bound by them for the most part. I find is much clearer and cleaner to think in terms of Laya for the inherent musical rhythm and the thala as an external compact representation of it. Many different laya patterns map to the same thala structure. My speculation is the laya patterns are the creative elements occuring naturally ( from composers, performers and percussionists ) and thalas are abstractions devised by musicologists and theoreticians of yore ( sort of parallel to the melakartha categorization on the raga side, we all know the limits of usefulness of that scheme ).

s_hari · Post by **s_hari** » 25 Aug 2008, 09:03

semmu86 wrote:speaking of polynadai pallavi, one can find a dkj music academy concert in sangeethapriya i believe with vvs and uks as accompanists.... he sings a beautiful rtp in thodi.. the pallavi set to basic Adhi thAlam structure but the first half is thisram and the secind half khandam..... eduppu is 4 aksharas after samam..... he has sung it in the beautiful naina pillai tradition......

I searched in sagneethapriya. Can someone help me to point this out? I would like to hear this.

-hari

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 31 Aug 2008, 20:22

This is it: http://www.sangeethamshare.org/kl/13-DKJ-VVS-UKS/

Also, I didn't know that was a Music Academy concert, thanks for the info semmu86.

The thalam is really not as complicated as it seems on first glance, just thinking about it for a second reveals the simplicity. The first half of the thalam (4 beats) are in tisram, last half (4 beats) are in kandam. The average of tisram and kandam (3 and 5) is 4! So the overall count is the same as normal Adi thalam. Alternatively, you can count the matras (3*4 + 4*5 = 32, same as Adi thalam).

Also, I believe the term is "retta nadai pallavi" when doing a pallavi with 2 nadais. I remember hearing TMK doing this in July 2007 for MLV rememberence day, he sang one of MLV's old pallavis in Lathangi - "Rajamaatangi Lathangi, Maampahi Maatangi", set to chatusra jampa thalam, first half of thalam (laghu) was in tisra nadai, second half of thalam was in kandam.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Aug 2008, 20:46

sankirnam: In such pallavis, are each of the 32 matras the same duration?

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 31 Aug 2008, 23:23

Yes- the "matra" or count or whatever you want to call it, is the fundamental, basic unit. In the case of DKJ's pallavi, for example, you can count 3 counts/matras per beat in the laghu and 5 per beat in the druthams.

If you double the speed, then you will get 6 per beat in the laghu and 10 per beat in the druthams (this is the speed the pallavi is set to, making one avarthanam of this thalam equal to one avarthanam of 2 kalai adi).

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Sep 2008, 00:32

sankirnam: Thanks. Understood.

This also implies that the duration of the laghu is less than the duration of the sum of the two druthams ( e.g if the avarthanam duration is 8 seconds, laghu will take 3 seconds and the two druthams together will take 5 seconds ), right?

Thanks.

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 01 Sep 2008, 04:23

Yes, becuase the beats in the laghu are shorter than the beats in the drutham, and the ratio of time lengths you specified is correct.