Season's summary - The best and the worst

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 21 Jan 2008, 04:54

vgvindan,
I have started a thread on the canduru varNuni issue in the sahitya section.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 21 Jan 2008, 06:39

'his school''s definition as THE definition

http://rapidshare.com/files/85307917/Ho ... _Opera.mp3

Here is an extract from a Lecture on How to Understand Opera Music.
By Robert Greenberg.
Unrelated sytsems of Music it may seem, though.

Wonderful Words here in this clip starting at 1.53
My friends.Music and art are not Linear.They dont build cumulatively on the work of predecessors as let's say Science does...
And I Need to prove to you , this concept of Music as a mirror.......

I point out to this simply because of the refreshing attitude that exists in relatively rigid forms of expression- towards breaking of rules and ending up making new ones.
This problem has existed for long in HM, too.
Only now I begin to understand why conservatives there accept a new gharana as a new one , only if it produces three successive generations of performers who are as high ranking and widely accepted as the the first one to break away from the well trodden path.( I am speaking from memory here since i am unable to locate my copy of the article tracing the so called dilution that Kirana Gharana brought in, to address new realities - A gharana that produced Karim Khan-Sawai Gandharv and Bhimen Joshi-Gangubai-... successivly )

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Jan 2008, 07:36

Cool, well said with a quote which would stand the test of time!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Jan 2008, 08:06

VK,
A negative sentence or two in a review can carry a lot of weight when it comes to influencing a reader (particularly the ones who have not heard the performer before). Not knowing where the critic comes from can also influence the listener. Reading a negative review from an opinionated critic in a respected newspaper does not help an established artiste or a newcomer. We cannot stop friends and relatives recommending or rejecting a performer. Still, we can ask them to give reasons for their opinions. The up and coming-ones don't need negative comments. The reputed ones too. While seasoned rasikAs don't pay much attention to reviews in the media and take a chance with newbies or even the well known ones, ton reading them, a lot of concert-goers with good intentions might miss concerts which they would otherwise have enjoyed...

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 21 Jan 2008, 15:46

VK, I think the point being made by Vidya is that SVK rarely comments on any technical aspects of the performance. V Subramainan's comments maybe debatable, but he is still giving an opinion on a specific point of grammar. I can't remember the last time I heard SVK ventured into such territory...be it raga-lakshana or laya intricacies, SVK safely stays away, preferring to dilate on about musical values, on-stage etiquette and so on...it is but natural for the reader to be skeptical about the knowledge of such a reviewer...The criticism against V Subramanian is more about his interpreting aesthetics and grammar from the standpoint of his school.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 21 Jan 2008, 18:49

Vijay, I'm sure you meant V Subrahmaniam. There is another Hindu reviewer named Balasubramaniam who writes for the Hindu; we really don't want to drag him into this....

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 21 Jan 2008, 18:56

Oops yes V Subrahmanian...apologies for the error...will make the necessary corrections!

kadambam · Post by **kadambam** » 25 Jan 2008, 02:05

"More important it is V. Subrahmanian who is writing the review, not Semmangudi mama. ..." TMK

http://www.hindu.com/fr/2008/01/25/stor ... 190600.htm

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Jan 2008, 04:23

Vijay, understood fully. My comment about SVK was more a wise-crack that anything significant.

I think Sowmya has presented her technical position very well by making the clips available ( http://sowmya.carnatica.net/academy-concert-review.htm ). And Krishna makes the point about the two schools. We talk about such esoteric things in this forum a lot but that may be a revelation to many readers of The Hindu.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 25 Jan 2008, 04:41

The elaborate responses with back ups from Sowmya and TMK is enough proof that today's artiste will not hesitate to "hit back" if the critic blunders.

This development also serves the purpose of the reviewer being doubly sure before sending the report for publication.( Something like the 360 degree appraisal done in some companies ! )

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 25 Jan 2008, 05:13

I think V. Subrahmaniam has been served what he deserved.
Shooting one's mouth and then hiding behind the cloak of one's guru (ironically same guru as TMK) is about as low as it gets. If a strong opinion is expressed he should atleast be gentleman enough to accept the consequences of what he said.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Jan 2008, 05:29

Mahavishnu: Let us not get personal in this debate and let us keep it at the technical level.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 25 Jan 2008, 06:03

thanks for your caution, VK. I should have chosen my words more carefully.
However, my point is that one cannot make a point in public and then say that it was the opinion of someone else....

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Jan 2008, 06:31

Thanks Mahavishnu. Understood.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Jan 2008, 06:54

None of the sowmya clips are working! I wonder why?
..and that smirk on Sowmya's face is worth a million dollars

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Jan 2008, 09:01

And she is raising her hand to ask a question 'Excuse me Sir, I have a question here about your review'

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 25 Jan 2008, 09:22

VK,
And in such a dignified way too.
CML,
Yes, while a smirk would become her too, look at that charming smile!

kamavardhani · Post by **kamavardhani** » 25 Jan 2008, 09:31

Great response from Sowmya and logical supplementary questions from TMK! I'm also struck by the contrasting nature of the two responses and how they closely resemble the on-stage personalities of the artistes... Sowmya's has an understated elegance, sticks to pure musical facts and respectfully disagrees with a senior's views. TMK, just like inhis concerts, pushes the envelope and is flamboyant and in-your-face!

Anyway, it is good that artistes have decided not to be quiet anymore about these reviews. I fervently wish someone would haul SVK too over the coals... but that man cleverly sticks to non-technical fluff and coats it with flowery language that can be interpreted in different ways. Like our friend Vijay said in an earlier post, these responses by artistes should serve as a warning to anyone who makes comments in a public forum, including some of the gadflies here. Back up sweeping statements with evidence; let not your personal prejudice & preference show the artistes in a disrespectful light. This forum, especially, is accessed worldwide and there are a lot of impressionable young minds reading the posts... much more than The Hindu!

CML, the links work fine for me. Make sure you have the browser configured with a default application to handle audio files having a ".mp3" extension.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 25 Jan 2008, 11:30

Moving away from the current discussion ...

1. Vathapi ganapathim once synonymous with CM seems to have fallen out of favor. Not a single rendering in the season.
2. A few ragas like keeravani , madyamavathi , bilahari also seem to be out of sight.
3. Even shanmukhapriya , the RTP raga has not featured in many RTPs.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Jan 2008, 21:45

Kamavardhani

My browser automatically opens Windows Media Player which is unable to play the clips.
Will appreeciate any help. I tried Firefox too to no avail!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 25 Jan 2008, 22:30

Rajumds, I too did not hear any Vathapi but TMK sang it in a concert about 2-3 months before the season. Neyveli also sang it sometime earlier this year...I heard a few Bilaharis - TMK and Vijay Siva for example - but the raga's popularity seems to be on the wane...Keeravani was quite abundant though. Madhyamavathi and Shanmukhapriya were relatively scrace...raga that I missed most this season was Sankarabharanam - hardly 2-3 renditions and I attended a few concerts! But I guess all of us will have a different set of expriences to narrate!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 25 Jan 2008, 22:31

A somehwat unrelated point - the Friday Review includes an interview of Parveen Sultana - by any chance is she singing in town?

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 25 Jan 2008, 22:39

Rajumds,
Vathapi will nowonwards feature only in thematic concerts on dikshitar... just joking.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 25 Jan 2008, 23:53

Even I recognise Vathapi.

I once theorised that it is played more often than any other Carnatic song.

Its sweet, its good, it's heard just too often, though

kadambam · Post by **kadambam** » 26 Jan 2008, 02:38

What about Pancharatna Kritis? Never heard any this season........

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 26 Jan 2008, 07:21

I did. Couldn't say which and where, though --- just know that I did!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 26 Jan 2008, 07:29

how about a gang of us going to dakshin Chitra for Kishoris performance on Feb 2nd.
Tickets are going to be expensive , but then BANYAN is such a wonderful and good reason to spend !!
Concerts at dakshin chitra are always such a wonderful experience!!!

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 26 Jan 2008, 07:33

Malladi Brothers and Neyveli both sang Bilahari this season. From my experience this season, I would say that Bilahari remains popular. I really did miss Keeravani and Shankarabharanam though. Of the major ragas, the most popular this season appeared to be Bhairavi. I remember there was a phase last year where nearly every other review in the forum had Kalyani as a main/ submain, but I only heard one Kalyani during the season.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 26 Jan 2008, 10:49

I'm game for Kishori's concert.

kssuresh · Post by **kssuresh** » 26 Jan 2008, 11:05

kamavardhani wrote:Sowmya's has an understated elegance, sticks to pure musical facts and respectfully disagrees with a senior's views. TMK, just like inhis concerts, pushes the envelope and is flamboyant and in-your-face!

Spot on!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 26 Jan 2008, 12:03

I am all for Kishori's concert too...what a great opportunity!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Jan 2008, 12:16

cmlover wrote:Kamavardhani

My browser automatically opens Windows Media Player which is unable to play the clips.
Will appreeciate any help. I tried Firefox too to no avail!

CML, try this. Right click on the link and use save target as and save the .wax file. Then double click on the .wax file to see if that plays. If not, open it explicitly with another player like VLC media player.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 26 Jan 2008, 14:59

Been meaning to visit Dakshin Chitra for years.

Just what I needed to get me there.

Include me in any information/plans.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 26 Jan 2008, 17:56

2000 bucks per head , is what it will cost for the evening.
I intend to switch of the lights at my home and listen to a rare concert of hers instead.
Any one coming to my Home , or offering your Drawing Room for an evening !!??
Same Time as in Dakshin Chitra ..Saturday evening..2nd.
I intend inviting myself to Nicks place If I am not troubling others there.
Or mantra , if he wants to test his new Music Room..

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 26 Jan 2008, 18:37

I didn't realise "expensive" could go that far. I'm still open though as it is going for a good cause.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 26 Jan 2008, 18:44

A good cause

Yes. I am sorry for not mentioning that.They are a wonderful set of people.
Yes the Price is for the donations to the Charity.The open air auditorium is sheer Class.Speeches are short and wonderful.People who speak have great command over the language and are wonderful orators.They help create the perfect mood for the Concert , including a walk through various stalls which display the work of the artisans.
Even parking your own Car is such a graceful experience there.
If my memory serves me right , Dinner is included.

Once again sorry for giving a wrong impression.

sridhar_ranga · Post by **sridhar_ranga** » 26 Jan 2008, 18:52

rajumds wrote:Moving away from the current discussion ...

1. Vathapi ganapathim once synonymous with CM seems to have fallen out of favor. Not a single rendering in the season.
2. A few ragas like keeravani , madyamavathi , bilahari also seem to be out of sight.
3. Even shanmukhapriya , the RTP raga has not featured in many RTPs.

TMK took up Hamsadhwani/ vAtApi as the main piece in his concert at Nungambakkam Cultural Assn this season.

Sri

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 26 Jan 2008, 20:40

I am OK either way....2K is rather high for a concert but the ambience promises to be wonderful and dinner is included as well....sounds good to me...will they allow photos do you think (I am rather apprehensive of Smt Amonkar's temper though!)...i that case I am certainly game...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 27 Jan 2008, 08:14

2,000 is too much, especially for two of us.

Hey! Cool will be making a much choice coming to my place: we only charge 1,500

. Dinner is extra, but tea is included!

I'm hesitant (which never stopped me yet!) to criticise, knowing nothing about this, but 'charity' events aimed exclusively at rich people always seem a little strange to me.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 27 Jan 2008, 08:30

Nick
that should have read 4000 ... for two of us.

I am now thinking on the lines of a Hindusthani Jam session at your place.
Let us see.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 27 Jan 2008, 08:30

And the number of rasikAs will be considerably less--I mean, of those who come for the love of music than the ones who attend just to make a grand 'appearance'. Still, the event is going to bring in the money for a good cause...

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 27 Jan 2008, 09:07

Let there be no two opinions about Banyan.
Absolutely spotless- And it is an amazing Institution.We might be going there simply because they have accepted two cases referred to, by my wife without any hassle.
The last time I went for Parveens Concert , I came out wondering more about Banyan , than the Music.
This series is usually related to the theme of Basanth .
And feature related ragas.
Kishori has sung a great basant Kedar, a sample of which is here
http://rapidshare.com/files/86923969/09 ... 2.mp3.html

Hoping to catch her in such a" raga-mood "

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 27 Jan 2008, 11:00

Hindusthani Jam session? I have Strawberry Jam and Blackberry Jam in the fridge. We culd end up very sticky!

And I did mean '2,000 each is a lot especially when paying for two'

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 28 Jan 2008, 09:41

vidya wrote:There seems to be a difference in the notated versions of the word PrakAsam in the SSP and Sundaram Iyer's kIrtanamAlA.The said jhanta payogam occurs in sundaram iyer's notation but is not in the SSP. Variations in audio renditions of the Pallavi also seems to suggest this. May be some of the artistes here who learnt this composition could clarify this?

While the SSP may not have the jhaNTa prayOgas, its notation of Ananda naTana prakAsam does have unusual phrases involving RShabha in the gangAdharam and the last syllable of nIlakandharam.

But then, as was pointed out earlier, one should not expect the same flavour of every composer.

Some more examples:
i. P; D N; ; is an unusual phrase in bilahari that features in MD's hATakEshvara.
ii. In mukhAri the use and relative durations of D1 and D2 in ascent and descent differ across composers, as pointed out by Dr. KG Vijayakrishnan in his comparison of kArubAru (Tyagaraja), EmanI (Su. Sastri), and pAhimAm ratnAchala (MD) in The Grammar of Carnatic Music

Dr. KGVK's remarks following point (ii) bear quoting in this context:

"Clearly the three composers had slightly variant grammars of the same rAgam mukhAri. It is a debatable issue whether they inherited this difference from their respective schools or they forged their own grammars as they went along. But contemporary Carnatic music with its broad based, eclectic learning/listening avenues is certainly on the way to losing such subtle variations. This is what I call the process of simplification... and is driven by the twin criteria of prescriptivism and the need to reduce the tonal markedness of rAgas."

He goes on to discuss other consequences of this simplification such as the sharpening of G and N in sAverI, and the sharpening of a note between N2 and N3 in janaranjani in order to accommodate it more securely under shankarAbharaNam.

-

It is good to read exchanges between musicians and reviewers on such issues, and I appreciate the way Smt. S. Sowmya has respectfully but firmly differed, and marshalled evidence in support of the usage.

shankarabharanam · Post by **shankarabharanam** » 29 Jan 2008, 12:00

http://www.hindu.com/fr/2008/01/25/stor ... 190600.htm
Continuing the debate...TMK and Soumya reply that was published on 25th June 2008.

http://sowmya.carnatica.net/academy-concert-review.htm

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 29 Jan 2008, 14:46

mahavishnu wrote:thanks for your caution, VK. I should have chosen my words more carefully.
However, my point is that one cannot make a point in public and then say that it was the opinion of someone else....

yes. veshti would have been more appropriate than cloak.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 29 Jan 2008, 17:05

sureshvv:

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 29 Jan 2008, 22:01

vainika wrote:But then, as was pointed out earlier, one should not expect the same flavour of every composer..

True. However,
1.Are we sure if the said flavor was a composer's intention or incorporated by one of those editors?
With Tyagaraja's krtis we have the added problem of extremely bad quality notation-writers and editors. While we can trust the notations supplied by the Umayalpuram schools
and Veena Kuppaiyer and to an extent the Walajahpet schools, the same cannot be said of certain other editors who somehow managed to take the forefront in the
publishing industry of that time.

Imagine this, a lot of compositions of Tyagaraja did not carry raga names.This being the case it rested on the shoulders of these editors to either come up with a raga
name or see which fits where and classify it as such. So if an editor thought it was pUrNacandrika so it was, and if they thought it was janaranjani so it was. Did Tyagaraja actually
compose that in the said raga, that could be a different case altogether. Now a century later if we decide to use these phrases from compositions as evidence when the whole
classificatory and naming scheme was itself unreliable and botched up, it is not all that 'scientific' as it seemingly is. We are seeking objectivity in a system which thrives on obfuscation.

2. Again a great many unusual phrases that MD uses such as the one you pointed out in bilahari are there as signposts indicating a certain historical data point. This particular phrase in
kEdaram is nothing like that. I do not understand why and how Sundaram Iyer notated it that way. Perhaps the change was made to accomodate the chApu tAlam.
Infact in this situation is doubly ironical. We are singing compositions in misracApu with a modified notation (which is itself a result of homogenization of two traditions)
And then going on to say that we (not referring to an individual but to the carnatic community as a whole) need to respect and separate two different traditions. Kalpagam
mami talks often about ragas like Sama and Saranga where some of the vakra prayogas are sacrificed for the sake of scalar homogenity to fit in with other composers .
This IMO is different from phrases occurring in compositions that do not make much musical sense or has any specific melodic contribution to make there.

3.On schools and traditions in general
This whole concept of Dikshitar and Tyagaraja school and different raga system rests on a foundation as strong as a pack of cards. Yes different composers saw different
facets of ragas but as far as I understand it was not like they descended from different amnAyas or institutions and held on to it. As far as I see it today, Sangraha CUDAmani is
more the work of Pandit S.Subramanya Sastri than any Govinda whose source again was the so-called Akalanka. Merely by repeating incorrect histories and repeating them
and restating them in text books we have managed to create images of two distinct schools of ragas.

vainika wrote:Dr. KGVK's remarks following point (ii) bear quoting in this context:..

Ramki,
On this need to preserve tonal structure of ragas and forcing parental schematics and this concept of simplification as early as the 1950s KVRamachandran has been lamenting this fact and it is nice to note that Prof.KGVK has also made a mention of this.(I believe we both have heard portions of this article referred time and again and I got a copy of it, thanks to Srini Pichumani and have uploaded it here)..These should help people place discussions on ragas and raga systems in perspective.

1.The so-called AkaLanka
http://www.ibiblio.org/guruguha/article ... alanka.pdf

2.Venkatakamakhin
http://www.ibiblio.org/guruguha/article ... ghavan.pdf

3.A series of articles by shri.KV Ramachandran that appeared in the Music Academy.
http://www.ibiblio.org/guruguha/articles/KVR1.pdf
http://www.ibiblio.org/guruguha/articles/KVR2.pdf

kamavardhani · Post by **kamavardhani** » 29 Jan 2008, 23:20

What exactly, is your point, madam?

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 30 Jan 2008, 00:36

Kamavardhani, My point?? Get off bandwagons