Prof Sri Trs Lec-dem 'status Of Telugu As A Language Employe

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Dec 2007, 08:00

I guess I was right

- but I also think cmlover is right in his first couple of sentences of the last post

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 17 Dec 2007, 08:52

cml,
In an environment saturated with intolerance and parochialism of all sorts, playing pranks and practical jokes amounts to playing with fire.
Kindly bear in mind that one indiscretion of a Vaggeyakkara was also a contributing factor to what happened a century later - I do not want to go into specifics of which you are aware.
We are like people living in glass houses - let us not throw stones.

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 17 Dec 2007, 12:26

I wish to point out just one thing w.r.to the perception on Telugu for musical treatises vis-a-vis the SSP.

While Telugu was the lingua franca for compositions Sanskrt held sway for treatises. In the post 14-15th Century musical history of South India there seems to have been the following unwritten rule - Treatises in Sanskrit, Compositions in Telugu or other modified/stretchable-voweled language.This was perhaps why Venkatamakhi the Sanskrit scholar chose the modified Bandeera bhasha for his gItams and prabhandams. The first Telugu work on musicology (Raga Tala Chintamani of Govindamatya) appeared only in the later part of the 16th century long after the Swaramelakalanidhi. And the next Telugu text on musicology that appears is Gayaka Parijatham around 1859 and then the SSP in 1904. My contention is that the contemporary Taccur brother's choice and the patron's language perhaps holds the key to why the SSP was in Telugu.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 17 Dec 2007, 17:58

From what I have understood of Sri Thyagaraja, I will dare say that had he been born to Tamil or Kannadiga or Malayalee parents - or for that matter any other language, he would have chosen that language (Tamil, Kannada or Malayalam etc) as the medium of expression of his bhakti - bhaktiH kim na karOti?

Felicity in any language arises from a heart brimming with love - anurAga bhakti; otherwise any poetry with good command of language and/or musical knowledge only is barren - it can bring money and fame - but not any closer to human consummation.

The sweetness of kritis of Sri Thyagaraja is the result of his bhakti and nAdOpAsana. It is not his felicity of the language or the 'so called' musical suitability of Telugu language.

For example, yesterday in the concert of Jairaj and Jaisri, the kRti 'baNTu rIti' was rendered. This kRti is very sweet not because of the rAga (hamsa nAdam), but because of the bhAva of the kriti - the yearning heart. Those who relish only the musical sweetness miss out on the essence.

mUkaM karoti vAcAlaM paGguM laGghayate girim
yatkRpA tamahaM vande paramAnanda mAdhavam

Is language indeed a barrier?

srini_pichumani · Post by **srini_pichumani** » 23 Jan 2008, 19:37

KMRasika/Thanjavooran,

I asked TMS about compositions in the Saurashtra language when he visited my friend's home in Michigan in the 1990s. He then talked about a saint by the name of Natanagopalanayaki and proceeded to sing a few compositions of his. I don't remember what he sang then, but here is a website on the composer that has a lot of infomation on the composer:

http://www.srimannayagi.org/

-Srini.

Mahamkalisai · Post by **Mahamkalisai** » 24 Jan 2008, 22:19

Hi, to all members who participated in this context. First, let me introduce, I am a telugu man, living in music right from birth.
It is very sad to discuss about a stupid topic like this. We all knew that those days there were no seperate states or linguistic
identity to persons living then. We have to accept a fact that this type of linguistic fanatisim ever existed, the Tyagaraja Kritis, Syama
Sastry Kritis or for that matter anybody's would have not been preserved or sung by other linguist.

I am presently living in Maharashtra since past 32 years and very fluient in this language also. Still when I close my eyes to chat with God I speak to him in Telugu language only.

Every CM lover should thank the Tamil people in toto for preserving all those kritis and CM as a whole.

BUT, sadly my heart sinks when a CM singer of this generation sings a Tyagaraja Kriti in his own style of Telugu I feel sorry for
their Guru.

The finest point is the future generations would deffinetely thank the tamil people as a whole for preswerving the telugu kritis
though they are not in their mother tongue. Brothers, we are all one,i.e., CM lovers.

MAHAMKALISAI

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 27 Jan 2008, 16:46

THE WORDS OF V.G.VINDAN AND MAHAMKALISAI are worth "AKSHARA LAKSHAM"
though Being a TAMILIAN BY BIRTH, and a temporary migration e for about ten years ito Andhra, my penchant for the Sweet Telugu Language is well known to many of our forum members.In my opinion True Bhakthi traverses beyond territorial boundaries., As Mahamkalisai rightly pointed out , if you just close your eyes and just think of the ALMIGHTY , no particular language pervades your mind.Perhaps due to the singular reason that GOD is all pervsasive and when it comes to the case of Carnatic Music or any clasical form of music for that matter, the supremacy of DIVINE MUSIC PREVAILS.
TO CONCLUDE, As appropriatey opined by Mahamkalisai, we are NOT EVEN ONE , !!
BUT PART OF THE DIVINE !!
AGAIN I REPRODUCE THE OFT- QUOTATION THUS:-

TELUGU TETTA !
KANNADA KASTHURI !!!
ARAVAM AMRUTHAM !!!
Let Krishna Devaraya's soul , who was known for his communal, and linguistic amity, may proffer his Divine Approval !!!
Ramaraj

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Jan 2008, 22:27

I echo your views Ramraj. There is no difference among us in regard to bhakti or love of CM and why should a language stand in the way. We get angry when we don't understand the meaning of what is being sung while the music drives us into ecstasy. The bhakti is patent and the emotions are intact and why should we complain. I personally feel that we are fortunate to have services of persons like VGV who parse those songs word for word for our inner undertanding and once we internalize it is indeed heavenly. God by any other name is still God and similarly CM by any other language is still CM (including sourashtram and thanks to srini for the reference!)

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 30 Jan 2008, 01:44

In my opinion the views of Subrahmanyam are not representative of the full potential of CM and are parochial/limited in nature. What is being overlooked is that there is no uniform style of composition in CM. For the type of composition style chosen by Tyagaraja (usually madhyamakala, many sangatis in the pallavi, etc) I agree Telugu is very well suited. However, for detailed exposition of the raga lakshanas, and a reposeful treatment of ragas - as chosen by Dikshitar - in my opinion there is no better language than Sanskrit.

The background of the composer/listener is also important. For example, I find the more frequent occurrence of consonants in Sanskrit quite attractive - I quite like the clear and assertive enunciation of consonants while singing. I do not feel any special connection to a language that has a greater frequency of vowels. Being a Malayalam speaker (although not erudite), as well being able to read, write, and understand Telugu, I can say with confidence that Sanskrit is by far the most attractive language for me to compose in.

This reply is to suggest that the whole issue of "which language is better for CM" is a matter of opinion - i.e., it boils down to what we find attractive personally. I hope readers coming across this thread will not take Subrahmanyam's views as scientific or generally true.

However, I continue to maintain that: 1) use of pan-Indian languages (Sanskrit and Hindi), 2) emphasis on non-religious themes, 3) and improvement of presentation/concert quality, are all critical for long-term attractiveness of CM to a broader base of people, otherwise it will likely continue to shrink to a very limited regional appeal.

SR

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 30 Jan 2008, 07:54

I don't think TRS ever meant other languages are unsuitable for music. He was just focusing on what made Telugu so popular. Let that not be construed as "He said Telugu is the best language for CM". Even if he did say that which I seriously doubt, we should take it in context and not come to wild conlusions. I don't believe his views on CM are parochial at all! At the beginning of the lecdem, he did say CM is an ocean and he is still a student and learning new things all the time.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 30 Jan 2008, 12:00

Sanskrit has a certain majesty which is quite suitable for a certain category of CM composition...to some extent this is also true of Tamizh...OTOH Telugu has a flowing character. Beyond that, language makes very little difference to me...

Also the argument about the consonant/vowel orientation of these languages does not sound very compelling...compare Sivan's Kapali Nee in Mohanam to Thyagaraja's Kadanuvariki. Generally speaking, the assertion may be true but in a CM composition, we are talking about 3-4 lines of verse and it should not be difficult to find suitable words to achieve the desired balance between vowels and consonants...

As regards secular/Hindi pieces, a little more diversity would be nice but the issue needs to be weighed against tradition. Personally, I am able to enjoy CM despite being almost indifferent to its lyrical content but CM is deeply rooted in South Indian Vedanta culture. I am not too sure about the appropriateness of altering that just to widen its popularity - especially given that there is no shortage of mass appeal...in fact, given present day trends I think CM would do well to focus on a smaller bunch of rasikas! In a way, the religious aspect of CM acts as a bulwark against dilution and to that extent, I think a major deviation is probably not desirable.

In any case, my opinion is that rasikas who look listen CM for lyrical appeal are missing the point altogether. CM is primarily a high form of art music - one of the highest there is - and being such, lyrics ought to be secondary to musical content. So when a Malladi/Hyd Bros sing a Tamil composition I don't find myself squirming even if their pronunciation is less than perfect. Similarly, when a Tamilian mispronounces constants in Sanskrit, it is, at worst, a minor distraction. This is not to say that an artiste should completely ignore lyrical aspects - but to me at least, it is no big deal....I'd anyday prefer poor articulation over poor music.

As for TRS, he can be opinionated at times but he certainly doesn't across as parochial to me...at least not in the matter of language...

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 30 Jan 2008, 13:18

rasikas who look listen CM for lyrical appeal are missing the point altogether

I think you are mixing lyric with bhAva. No matter what language it is, 'bhAva' is same. IMO, this aspect has not got the proper attention of musicians.

It is generally believed that if they (musicians) are true to the rAga lakshaNas and the lyrics, the purpose would be served. No, while I would not like to comment about rAga lakshaNa - notwithstanding what has been brought out by Vidya in a parallel thread - the lyrics - the words themselves - are of lesser significance provided the musicians are able to understand and convey the true purport - bhAva.

While those who are knowledgeable in music - a miniscule percentage of the rasikas - unlike these kinds of forums - where they are in majority - look for rAga lakshaNa, the lay rasika looks for emotional appeal.

Take for instance the kRti 'karpaga valli un porpadangal'. It is besides the point whether the musician renders it with bhAva or not, or whether the rAga mAlika lakshaNas are properly maintained or not - the lay rasika for whom there is an emotional appeal, would infuse the bhAva himself and enjoy it in his own mind; wherever his mental imagery matches with the performance of the artist, he or she will come again and again to hear those musicians - and would demand the same from them.

As for lyrics themselves, the problem arises only when we look for non-existing sangatis in order just to demonstrate one's musical talents; such musicians do more harm to music than they imagine.

Regarding secular subjects, all secular subjects - except love - have a temporary appeal. For example, Bharati has rendered wonderful songs about freedom struggle. But they lose mass appeal when the phase passes off. The same is true with any other secular subject.

The only long lasting appeal is love - am emotion which is the core of existence. Bhakti is only an expression of this love. This any-time-any-where-any-one appeal is the bulwark of CM. Any intellectual variations brought about in the lyrical content without emotional appeal of never-wearing nature, cannot survive the march of time.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 30 Jan 2008, 15:32

Govindan Sir, I did mean lyrics and not bhava. Bhava is of utmost importance and the very essence of CM. Demonstrations of musical prowess that transgress on Bhava are empty and meaningless - indeed they reveal lack of knowledge and aesthetic sense on part of the performer. Many musicians with phenomenal technical prowess are not held in high esteem only because of their failure in this department and quite rightly so - a great concert/musician holds as much appeal to the layman as to the informed rasika and this case be the case only if his/her renditions are bhava oriented.

Therefore I am in complete agreement with your points.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 30 Jan 2008, 15:52

With very little understanding of Telugu and a primary interest in sound, I usually don't have much interest in sAhitya. As for spiritual guidance, I have gravitated to another, totally non-musical Guru.

In spite of such a mindset, I totally agree with shri vgvindan !

Bhakti is indeed the bulwark of Carnatic music and without the compositions of the great Bhakta vaggeyakaras it would be in danger of dying out...as some genres of Hindustani music might be.

In this connection, I'd like to bring in the words of the great Swami Vivekananda. The Swamiji was fairly well-acquainted with north Indian genres like Khyal and Dhrupad but I should think that he was not very well-acquainted with Carnatic music, at least at the time the following words were written. I do remember having read somewhere that he did meet Patnam Subramania Iyer sometime. It is quite possible that they were introduced to each other by the Raja of Ramanathapuram, a patron of both (the Raja sponsored some part of Swamiji's first trip to the US in 1893 for the Parliament of Religions). Another bit of trivia, the Swamiji died on July 4th 1902 and in those days news traveled slow. About a month later, when the news finally reached Patnam Subramania Iyer in Thiruvaiyaru, he is said to have remarked (paraphrasing) "the Swamiji is gone, what's the point in prolonging my own life" and passed on himself shortly thereafter.

At any rate, I should think the Swamiji was probably not very well-acquaited with the great Bhakta vaggeyakaras of the south. Keeping that in mind, read the following random thoughts of the Swamiji:

There is science in Dhrupad, Kheyal, etc., but it is in Kirtana, i.e. in Mathura and Viraha and other like compositions that there is real music -- for there is feeling. Feeling is the soul, the secret of everything. There is more music in common people's songs, and they should be collected together. The science of Dhrupad etc., applied to the music of Kirtana will produce the perfect music.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Compl ... s/On_Music

In other words, Carnatic music is "the perfect music" ! After all, Carnatic is a more advanced version of the "science of Dhrupad" applied to the music of Kirtana. What more could the swamiji have asked for !

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 30 Jan 2008, 16:08

More from the Swamiji, on a different musical matter:

In music no more were there the soul-stirring ideas of the ancient Sanskrit music, no more did each note stand, as it were, on its own feet, and produce the marvellous harmony, but each note had lost its individuality. The whole of modern music is a jumble of notes, a confused mass of curves. That is a sign of degradation in music.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Compl ... _before_us

Here, I'd like to think that the "confused mass of curves" the Swamiji is talking about might be the excessive use of brigas (or Taans as I believe it is called in HM) or even of gamakas. I love the Swamiji

.

I read these words a long time ago, when I was infatuated with the Swamiji (still am). Ever since, I have always thought of the excessive use of briga-filled sangatis as a "confused mass of curves"

.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 30 Jan 2008, 17:10

Very interesting Uday...Patnam meeting Swami Vivekananda! Thanks...

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 30 Jan 2008, 22:51

Thanks for all the interesting perspectives. I see a couple of circular arguments. CM is currently a religious-based art form because of the historical circumstances.

There seems to be an inherent assumption that only bhakti-related compositions are suitable for CM. Why did Bharati's compositions on the freedom struggle lose popularity ? Not because they had only temporary appeal, but simply because no effort was made to establish them. I personally cannot think of why it is not appropriate to sing these compositions again in modern concerts. Again, I believe a vicious cycle of sorts, in which practitioners stick to a narrow class of themes and make no effort to diversify, with the justification/assumption that the art form is bhakti-based and listeners will not want to listen to anything else.

A healthy art form involves conscious effort by its practitioners to explore new avenues and shape the taste of the rasiks, balanced by the feedback from rasiks (some new ideas just don't take off, others catch on easily. yet others may require more effort to popularize). Overall this leads to steady progress and evolution. In the 15th-19th century people's lives were strongly influenced by religion and the temples. Things are rapidly changing. Complacent assumptions that compositions in praise of the Hindu pantheon will always remain popular, or even that the same gods and same philosophies will remain with no changes, is in my opinion a sure sign of a civilization that has stopped evolving.

100-200 years from now, south India (and India in general) will be unrecognizable from what it is today. I don't think there is yet a full realization that Indian civilization must continue to evolve, not stagnate based on the assumption that whatever is existing will always exist. This is a challenge not only for Indian music and art, but for Indian civilization in general.

I am also surprised at the "exceptionalist" arguments made for CM. Throughout the world, secular art forms are invariably the ones that move forward and continue to evolve successfully. Religious-based art forms invariably die if they do not change into more secular forms. It is not particularly important that a specific composition must be popular for all time to come. What is important is that they remain preserved and that the practitioners of the art continue to understand the importance of revisiting them.

Let me state that if we make the fundamental assumption that CM is always a bhakti-based art form and cannot evolve into a more secular art form, its decline and extinction is assured. I will also state that if CM continues to exist as an art form with high popularity (at least among the "thinking man") then it will also look very different from what it is today.

It is the responsibilty of those practising the art to ensure its propagation by both taking into account changing times as well as careful thought on how the art must evolve to meet change. I could not agree more that CM is a great art, but the need of the day is a quantum jump in our awareness of how to propagate it successfully.

Best Wishes,
SR

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 30 Jan 2008, 23:29

Sangeet Rasik wrote:It is the responsibilty of those practising the art to ensure its propagation by both taking into account changing times as well as careful thought on how the art must evolve to meet change.

Beg to disagree.

The only "responsibility" that everyone has is to be true to themselves. The world does not sustain itself by the artificial design of self-styled Atlases, however well-intentioned.

That said, if there rises secular Carnatic music expression that is as intensely felt as the religious themes of the bhakta vaggeyakaras, more power to such expression. It will survive on its own accord.

But nothing needs to be "preserved" by calculation, including all of Carnatic music. If it dies out, other art forms will rise up eventually. If the artistic expression is intense enough, it will survive.

Such intensity is the only thing worth striving for and that may be the "responsibility". Ergo, the bhakta vaggeyakaras acted with responsibility.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 31 Jan 2008, 00:28

Uday_Shankar wrote:The only "responsibility" that everyone has is to be true to themselves. The world does not sustain itself by the artificial design of self-styled Atlases, however well-intentioned. That said, if there rises secular Carnatic music expression that is as intensely felt as the religious themes of the bhakta vaggeyakaras, more power to such expression. It will survive on its own accord.

I am not advocating some kind of massive re-engineering effort by a few individuals. What is needed is the cultivation of a overall "broader outlook" and openness to new ideas among musicians, rasiks, critics, and composers alike.

If we look at other art systems of the world, it seems that the long-lived ones are always proactive in some way - they shape the tastes of their generation to a large extent, rather than simply being influenced by the lay listener's taste.

But nothing needs to be "preserved" by calculation, including all of Carnatic music. If it dies out, other art forms will rise up eventually. If the artistic expression is intense enough, it will survive.

Again, there is some truth in your statement but simple application of "survival of the fittest" is not enough, in my opinion. The idea here is to promote and propagate Indian civilization and its art forms, this creates a certain responsibility.

Such intensity is the only thing worth striving for and that may be the "responsibility". Ergo, the bhakta vaggeyakaras acted with responsibility.

I agree. They did what was right for their time and place. It is up to the future generations to decide what to do - my contention is that what needs to be done in the future would be very different from what was done in the past. Note I am not criticizing the bhakta-vaggeyakaras of the past. I am wondering about a situation say 100 years from now wherein we will have a massive corpus of maybe 10,000 compositions on pantheon deities but only a very small number of people who connect with that religious heritage strongly enough to support the art form.

PS: Sorry for the couple of incomplete lines in my previous post. It got away from me before I could complete it.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 31 Jan 2008, 08:08

Sangeet Rasik wrote:but simple application of "survival of the fittest" is not enough, in my opinion.

That's a gratuitous over-simplification/carricature of the point I was trying to make.

Sangeet Rasik wrote:compositions on pantheon deities but only a very small number of people who connect with that

Well, I for one don't really connect with any deity but that's not the point of the compositions. The transcendental quality, depth, emotive power, etc.. of the Trinity compositions come due to what lies behind them, i.e., their single-pointed bhakti. Sometimes the words reflect them overtly other times they are shrouded in namamis and bhajamis. It's about who says namami/bhajami, not the words themselves. The compositions speak for themselves. Other contemporary vaggeyakaras who have the pakvam to recognize the trancendental quality of their compositions confess their inability to fathom what it is that imparts a special uyir (life) to them.

Just as gnyana cannot be attained by any amount of learning but only by the intensity of the person's desire for it, great art cannot come without great feeling.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 31 Jan 2008, 11:59

Uday_Shankar wrote:That's a gratuitous over-simplification/carricature of the point I was trying to make.

Your point was well understood and appreciated, but mine is entirely different.

Well, I for one don't really connect with any deity but that's not the point of the compositions. The transcendental quality, depth, emotive power, etc.. of the Trinity compositions come due to what lies behind them, i.e., their single-pointed bhakti.

You seem to be confusing "bhakti" with "bhava". Or perhaps by 'bhakti" you mean devotion to the highest ideals of music.

Sometimes the words reflect them overtly other times they are shrouded in namamis and bhajamis. It's about who says namami/bhajami, not the words themselves. The compositions speak for themselves.

Nobody disagreed that the compositions of the "Trinity" are great. The point is - many non-trinity compositions "speak for themselves", but it seems nobody else speaks for them.

Other contemporary vaggeyakaras who have the pakvam to recognize the trancendental quality of their compositions confess their inability to fathom what it is that imparts a special uyir (life) to them.

Humility is not an admission of inferiority. Perhaps this is the confusion that prevents progress. Perhaps we take statements of humility too seriously. When Tyagaraja said "endaro mahanubhavulu andariki vandanamulu" he did not necessarily believe in his heart that he was a lesser composer than his contemporaries. When Newton stated that he was "merely standing on the shoulders of giants", he did not necessarily believe in his heart that he was inferior. The people who claim to be close to the heart of Tyagaraja and the workings of his mind, must be very disingenuous indeed.

I will state again that every "Mahanubhava" must serve as a stepping stone to the next one. Any institution which holds the uncompromising belief that a past "Mahanubhava" is the ultimate stalwart, and does not actively promote future developments, is bound to die.

Whether you like it or not, all great institutions are ultimately sustained by a few Monumental achievements, and propagated for a limited time by incremental progress between these Monuments. When the Monuments dry up, the institution ultimately perishes. A crude analogy - the foundation of ancient Indian civilization was the Vedic Age. When that lost its power, the Epic Age (Ramayana and Mahabharata) were created to form the foundation of modern Indian civilization. The epics too, will one day lose their hold over the Indians. We will most certainly need new "Atlases", as you call them. Just like the Vedics installed Indra and Agni as their icons, and the Epics installed Rama and Krishna as their icons, we will continually need to find and install worthy new icons. They will not arise and install themselves automatically.

Just as gnyana cannot be attained by any amount of learning but only by the intensity of the person's desire for it, great art cannot come without great feeling.

"Great feeling" is not a special preserve of the so-called trinity - others have it in good and great measure. CM needs to develop a certain maturity that enables it to move beyond the trinity while continuing to appreciate their works. There are other composers of equal, if not greater, merit . I am not identifying X or Y as better. What annoys me is the almost complete closed-mindedness to new ideas and new horizons.

These new ideas and horizons need to be actively encouraged - simply saying that "if new approaches are meritorious, they will sustain themselves", will not cut it. Sorry. This approach is not followed by any successful institution in any field of human endeavor. Whether it is "venture capital" to help new entrepreneurs overturn established old corporates, or "seed grants" to help new scientists overturn established old paradigms, active (yet balanced) encouragement of new ideas from all quarters is essential. By no means does this amount to "depreciation" of the past greats.

SR

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 31 Jan 2008, 13:16

there are other composers of equal, if not greater, merit

Yes, OVK for sure.

Mahamkalisai · Post by **Mahamkalisai** » 31 Jan 2008, 22:47

Well !!

We started from the banks of Kaveri river and are presently in Thar Desert. Anybody would like to bring us back to Kaveri ?

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 31 Jan 2008, 23:59

Mahamkalisai wrote:Well !!

We started from the banks of Kaveri river and are presently in Thar Desert. Anybody would like to bring us back to Kaveri ?

Sorry, one of my periodic "rants" on the subject of new ideas in CM, though I submit it is not entirely off topic. Regarding the subject of "is Telugu the most suitable language for CM", my opinion is that it depends on the type of composition and how the composer handles the language. I don't think there is any structural or grammatical advantage for any language in CM. This can be debated - that is the subject of this thread, I suppose.

SR

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 01 Feb 2008, 08:28

vgvindan wrote:(1) Of all the South Indian Languages, Telugu is most suitable for music because most of the
words end with a vowel facilitating musical rendering. He gave the example of 'uNDEdi
rAmuDokaDu' - which in Tamil would be rendered as 'iruppadu rAman oruvan - the ending is a
consonant

(I was left wondering whether if it is written in Tamil as 'iruppadu rAman oruvanE' will it not be
suitable for music.)

(2) Even those who had Tamil as mother tongue had composed songs in Telugu - He cited the
example of Patnam Subramania Iyer and Syama Sastry.

(Are there are not composers like Gopalakrishna Bharathi, Arunachala Kavi Rayar, Muthu
Thandavar etc who wrote in Tamil? How come MD wrote in Sanskrit such wonderful Kritis?
Sanskrit is considered a very strict language in terms of grammar. If Sanskrit which is purely a
literaly language could become malleable in the hands of MD, how come other languages which
are both literary and colloquial are less suited? What about the Kritis of Purandara Dasa? They
are as sweet as as those of Thyagaraja kritis, if not more. If this contention is accepted, then no
Indian language other than Telugu is suitable for musical lyrics.)

(3) Krishna Deva Raya, whose mother tongue was Tulu, wrote a treatise in Telugu on Andal and
it is prescribed as Textbook for Colleges in AP. He also cited the example the treatise on Music
'Sangita Sampradaya Pradarshini' by Subbaraya Dikshitar in Telugu.

(As these treatise are not musical compositions, I was left wondering whether it is his contention
that Telugu is the most suitable language for literature also.)

(6) He brought out the neravals being done at wrong places - The example cited by him was 'sangIta
jnAnamu' and 'mA jAnaki ceTTa peTTaga'.

(I may point out that 'ceTTa peTTaga' literally means 'pANi grahaNam' and not walking hand-in-
hand.)

(7) He made some observations about the draw-backs of Gurukula system. He said that even if the
Guru taught wrongly, the student cannot question.

(If some Guru teaches wrongly, is it the fault of Guru or the system?)

I agree with many of the bracketed statements you've made here - a very objective way of looking at it.

vgvindan wrote:As for lyrics themselves, the problem arises only when we look for non-existing sangatis in order just to demonstrate one's musical talents; such musicians do more harm to music than they imagine.

I don't quite agree here, it's not so much to demonstrate one's musical talents as it is to enhance the rendition of a composition, or its effectiveness. However, there are musicians who have failed to achieve this at times, which would result in more harm to the music.

sindhu · Post by **sindhu** » 01 Feb 2008, 09:32

'uNDEdi rAmuDokaDu'

Would it not suit to say in tamil as 'rAman endRoruvan irukkubOdu' or 'inda (idi gives such meaning) rAman oruvan irukkubOdu' ?

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 01 Feb 2008, 10:10

Hi sindhu, Undedi ramudOkkaDE Urakechedipokumanasaa-The exact meaning oh mu soul why do u unnecessarily get confused when you know pretty well that Rama is the one and only one !The sahityam should be RamuDukaDE instead of rAmudOkaDu!
Ramaraj

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 01 Feb 2008, 12:12

When Tyagaraja said "endaro mahanubhavulu andariki vandanamulu" he did not necessarily believe in his heart that he was a lesser composer than his contemporaries

I will state again that every "Mahanubhava" must serve as a stepping stone to the next one. Any institution which holds the uncompromising belief that a past "Mahanubhava" is the ultimate stalwart, and does not actively promote future developments, is bound to die

the foundation of ancient Indian civilization was the Vedic Age. When that lost its power, the Epic Age (Ramayana and Mahabharata) were created to form the foundation of modern Indian civilization. The epics too, will one day lose their hold over the Indians.

Just like the Vedics installed Indra and Agni as their icons, and the Epics installed Rama and Krishna as their icons, we will continually need to find and install worthy new icons.

I am wondering about a situation say 100 years from now

Evolution of Life on this earth, its advancements, development of languages, arts, music, dance did not take place in matter of a few centuries. Contemporaneously no one would be able to understand how evolution is taking place.

Evolution certainly does not take place at workshops conducted in music academies where vested interests thrive.

Artists who have dedicated their whole lives for the sake of art - and art only - are the one who contribute towards such evolution.

ceviTiki-upadESiJcinaTu kAdO
http://sahityam.net/wiki/Manasu_Vishaya

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 01 Feb 2008, 12:20

sindhu,
it is futile to translate -( I am not referring to transliteration) - Kritis from one language to another as it is. Poetry involves prAsa and anuprAsa and other embellishments. If two languages have same words then they are not separate languages at all.

It might be possible to retain certain core words only and any attempt to translate - as has been attempted in the movie Sindhu Bhairavi - would result in absurd versions.

The example quoted by me was to illustrate only the aspect of ending vowel. This should not be stretched beyond that.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 01 Feb 2008, 18:31

vgvindan wrote:Artists who have dedicated their whole lives for the sake of art - and art only - are the one who contribute towards such evolution.

I am not speaking about vested interests or music conferences. I am saying that we need a much more open mind to new ideas. There is so much more to Indian civilization that can easily be merged with CM practice, than what we currently have. However, the current mindset is to cater to the "bhakti-brigade" with the familiar themes and familiar compositions. In this situation, let us not forget those who try to expand the horizons of the art: "upacAramu jEsEvarUnnArani maravaku rA".

SR

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 01 Feb 2008, 19:25

..the current mindset is to cater to the "bhakti-brigade" with the familiar themes and familiar compositions

SR,
Doesn't the market economy principles of 'consumer is always right' apply to music also? If bhakti is what the consumers (rasikas) want, what the musicians can do?

Of course, it is always a two way traffic, while you cater for the current tastes of rasikas, the rasikas are also to be educated by the musicians about something better that is available. Over a period of time, after brain-washing them, then only, you may find sufficient number of takers.

But first we should identify the 'something better'. Those who venture there should take the cue from the Bhakti Brigade - Thyagaraja, MD et al who used music as a tool to propagate bhakti. In case of MD, there seems to be something more - to preserve and revitalise the 'rAga' concept - otherwise, he would not have blended the name of rAga in almost all the kritis.

Let venture capitalists come forward.
If you want to undermine your enemy, one has to know all his best and weak points and then absorb the best points and exploit the weak points to one's advantage.

But from what I perceive, the bhakti brigade does not seem to have any weak points. Therefore, it would be better absorb the strong points and persevere - as the Bhakti brigade did - in order to promote their wares.

But there is one catch - the Bhakti brigade belongs to the category of 'don't care' attitude towards the consumers - they had different assured consumers. It is the consumers who went to them and not vice-versa.

Best of Luck

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 01 Feb 2008, 21:55

vgvindan wrote:Of course, it is always a two way traffic, while you cater for the current tastes of rasikas, the rasikas are also to be educated by the musicians about something better that is available. Over a period of time, after brain-washing them, then only, you may find sufficient number of takers.

Exactly. This is what I was referring to in my previous post. The art will move forward by these two processes - pushing new ideas and feedback from listeners.

But first we should identify the 'something better'. Those who venture there should take the cue from the Bhakti Brigade - Thyagaraja, MD et al who used music as a tool to propagate bhakti.

I have a fundamental disgreement with this. I think that MD and T (and other composers) used religious devotion (which was a huge part of life in those days - everyone from the king to the commoner venerated gods as the basic determinant of their lives) as a tool to promote CM, not the other way round. Classical music was their primary love, which they expressed in the form of devotion (in case of Tyagaraja, devition to his ishta-devata, Rama and in case of MD, his "catholic" veneration of the entire hindu pantheon). The difficulty is that in India we have a tendency to associate artistic inclination with religious devotion and divine intervention. While the compositions of MD and T may be "divinely inspired" , the primary purpose was to create art music. Of course, traditionally Indian arts have always been strongly associated with religion, especially when practised by brahmans. The original "poets" (kavis) were the Vedic seers, but the concept of the Indian "kavi" has through the ages transformed to essentially a secular one. There seems absolutely no rational barrier for the concept of the Indian "vaggeyakara" to transform from a purely religious to a more secular one.

In case of MD, there seems to be something more - to preserve and revitalise the 'rAga' concept - otherwise, he would not have blended the name of rAga in almost all the kritis.

I agree with the first part of your statement. Indeed MD kritis are carefully constructed to encapsulate the raga's main aspects. Same with Shyama Shastri. Irrespective of whether the raga mudra is included or not.

Let venture capitalists come forward. If you want to undermine your enemy, one has to know all his best and weak points and then absorb the best points and exploit the weak points to one's advantage.

I gave the "venture capital" example just as an analogy. I am not looking at this as a "battle" between tradition and novelty.

But there is one catch - the Bhakti brigade belongs to the category of 'don't care' attitude towards the consumers - they had different assured consumers. It is the consumers who went to them and not vice-versa.

I think the focus should be on CM as an art, not on bhakti and religious devotion. If one wants to express religious devotion through CM (whether as a musician, composer, or listener), there is already ample scope to do so. But looking at CM as primarily an instrument of religious devotion will be its biggest weakness in the future, because "religious devotion" as an institution is itself in rapid decline.

The best way forward in my opinion is to expand the scope of CM as an art form that addresses the best of all there is Indian civilization - philosophy, statecraft, culture, nation building, wealth creation - whether ancient or modern. There is no loss of tradition or quality in this ("nEhAbhikramanASosti").

There are some who maintain that "narastuti" is not appropriate for CM, but I believe this is based on incorrect interpretation of MD and T compositions, taken totally out of context. In any case, we must understand that gods like Rama and Krishna owe their popularity to "narastuti" taken to its extreme, through centuries of puranic legend-building.

I am in full agreement with the need to maintain classicism and tradition in the fundamentals of the art. That is, musicians must continue to rely on raga, laya, and other foundations of our music. Composers should continue to rely on the same foundations - prosody, lyrical embellishment, and seamless integration with the music to present an overall high quality product. As with most so-called "new" ideas, the hope of success lies with the "younger generation", not the previous one. From the latter, one can at best hope for a lower level of conservatism.

SR

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Feb 2008, 00:22

Though Tamizh does not get the 'CM Language' status, it has achieved 'C language' (C=Classical) along with sanskrit (which is C + (CM and C)) while Telugu has yet to attain that goal in competition with Tamizh

Thanks to kalaig~nar

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 02 Feb 2008, 00:38

Please wait for a few more years. All the Indian languages will get the status of Classic Language. Then another round will start - declaring Sanskrit as 'Super Classic' - and another merry go-round.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Feb 2008, 00:59

There is so much more to Indian civilization that can easily be merged with CM practice, than what we currently have.

That is something to think about. And this should include both good and bad about our civilization. For example, indian film music lyrics ( if you ignore the meaningless dribble that is dished out ) cover a whole range of subject matter: Social Ills and injustice of many kinds, personal anguish, love ( of course ), lamenting about current times, eulogizing the good old times, national pride, motivational etc. You will find often that people relate to the lyrics much better when it means something to them directly. in that sense, Thyagaraja's krithis, though predominantly bhakthi based, do cover such social commentary. ( I am sure VGV would agree with this and can expand on this point if he is so inclined ).

As an oblique reference, In one of the lakshana geetha's of the Great Venkatamakhin, he is supposed to have lamented about the troubles he had with criminals/bandits on his sthalayathra to Rameshwaram. ( Can someone corroborate this? ). While this is not really a great example of profound commentary, it is just an illustration that composers in the past have inserted such day to day life incidents in their compositions.

Having said all that, SR, I am not sure Sanskrit is the language of choice for widening the reach of CM. The logic there does not add up for me. This is not, of course, in reference to your sanskrit compositions, they are brilliant in their own right.

I tend to think that simple and straightforward lyrics, conveying ideas profound and not so profound on topics that talk to the people directly in language they readily understand, will do it. This is the vehicle for promoting music through lyrics and themes.

While we discuss this in terms of lyrics, we should not forget the fact that to a lot of people ( me included ), Nadopasana as a standalone vehicle is highly significant. I am using Nodopasana in the widest context possible: From enjoying music for the melody and rhythm to the ecstatic heights that the melody and rhythm takes one to.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 02 Feb 2008, 10:29

In my limited experience of attending composer specific concerts, the only one that stood out was OVK by Ravikiran's team. You could immediately feel that this was something special, up there with the Trinity. I had no special affection for OVK and no one asked me to support his compositions. Truly special creations have a way of announcing themselves to the public.

I'm a little bit skeptical when someone says Composer X is at the same level or even better than the Trinity. X already has the benefit of the Trinity's compositions. So, he/she could do incremental improvements with all the resources we have in the modern era. While that work deserves a mention, one should not resort to excessive praise and unfair comparisons with the greats of yore. Someone was talking of great institutions. A great institution is also defined as much by what it rejects.

I also do not understand when CM closed its doors. I have always felt it's been too flexible and could do with a little bit of control. It accepts different kinds of voices, new instruments and various techniques of playing them, a flexible concert format with krithis from multiple languages, widely varying concert venues and so on and so forth. It might have rejected many ideas during its evolution but any good system that wants to guard against mediocrity does so.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 02 Feb 2008, 11:26

That was a very articulate and balanced summary of the discussions on this thread

Mahamkalisai · Post by **Mahamkalisai** » 02 Feb 2008, 23:23

SANGITA RASIKA, All other Rasikas,

I wish to put my personal opinions.

After the end of small kingdoms in south when the British established, the CM singers who made a living on their art used to visit
the Jamindars of the state (the undevided) who used to respect those vidwans and used to honour them with all their might.
Being the place of telugu speaking people, those vidwans used to sing only Telugu kritis so that their listeners could enjoy
the bhaava correctly. That's how all tamil vidwans of CM used to have their Telugu language bettered visit by visit.

Not only telugu land, it may be true for kannada speaking places also.

This might be the basic reason how telugu, kannada kritis were well preserved compared to tamil kritis., though they were very much existant those days. I can give an example:

There is a small townby name Tenali in Andhra Pradesh (very near to Vijayawada). Here was a Gana Sabha by name Sri Seetha Rama Ganasabha, founded by a cm lover Late Narumanchi Subbarao. Every CM Vidwan worth his name performed on this stage.
Names like Late Musiri, Maharajapuram Viswanadha Iyer, Madurai Mani Iyar, MSS, MLV,Alattur Bros, MDR, MDS, Lalgudi, Semmangudi, Palghat Mani the list goes on like who is who. They used to feel as if that was their previlegeto sing in front of the founder and all were so close and dearer to him. This I observed personally since I was small 3/4 years to 35 years. Eventually the founder died and the grace has gone.

The big reason behind all those vidwans coming to the non paying sabha was " it was considered as a testing/ examining centre for a shishya who the guru considered that he can start his own life. For a proof, I can give an instance where a diciple of Late Chittoor Subrahmanya Pillai visited the sabha and performed. (He was a telugu fellow and now known as LOKANADHA SARMA.
At the end of the concert when the old man told him that he is fully graduated and continuous saadhana is required.
This was the same words he showered on Dr Balamurali Krishna in 1973. Both occassion I was an eye witness.

That was only one sabha, but, there were so many in Vijayawada, Machilipatnam, Kakinada, Visakhaptnam, Rajahmandry. ( All are telugu speaking areas) Our rasikas can estimate the situation if those vidwans sung tamil kritis those times there.

I toured around the state of tamilnadu during 1985/86 and found the sad positions of various sabhas in Madras(in particular) where a local vidwan may get Rs. 500/- or so for a performance. There fore if the vidwans going to other state
and sing their language just to attract them makes a whole lot of difference. Think how many sing a tamil kriti as the major presentation as against Tyagarajas/Syama Sastrys or Dikshitars..to this day ?

Therefore, I put my initial comments on this subject as stupid.

To be precise, just by being a large number of kritis available (preserved due to the above reasons) no language can be considered suitable and unsuitable. That was perfectly proved by Tiruvalluvar and many.

Annamacharya was a telugu speaking man lived many many years before to Tyagaraja. There were somany tamil wordings in his compositions.

So,...friends let us end this topic here and go for another much tasteful one for discussions.

Mahamkalisai

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 02 Feb 2008, 23:32

VK,

vasanthakokilam wrote:You will find often that people relate to the lyrics much better when it means something to them directly. in that sense, Thyagaraja's krithis, though predominantly bhakthi based, do cover such social commentary. ( I am sure VGV would agree with this and can expand on this point if he is so inclined ).

I am not disagreeing with this at all. However, the social commentary of Tyagaraja is always aimed at reinforcing bhakti and religious devotion, i.e., the commentary is always a preface to the suggestion that "all this is worthless, take refuge in god". I would have been much impressed if he had pointed out social ills and suggested reform of the society rather than withdrawal from it.

Having said all that, SR, I am not sure Sanskrit is the language of choice for widening the reach of CM. The logic there does not add up for me. This is not, of course, in reference to your sanskrit compositions, they are brilliant in their own right.

Thanks for the praise, let me also emphasize that my comments are not self-serving. I am not plugging for composer X or Y. Any pan-Indian language will suffice (the other one is Hindi). Regarding Sanskrit - In north India, vast numbers of students study Sanskrit as a third language. Sanskrit will always appeal to the "intelligentsia" in any part of India - at any rate, it must remain healthy at all cost. No matter what the mother-tongue, Sanskrit is the father-tongue and the deepest foundation of our civilization. Note also I am not advocating that CM should spread its numerical base of popularity to the level of "popular culture".

I tend to think that simple and straightforward lyrics, conveying ideas profound and not so profound on topics that talk to the people directly in language they readily understand, will do it. This is the vehicle for promoting music through lyrics and themes.

Most of the lyrics in CM are quite simple and straightforward already. The issue is more towards the content. Even the Sanskrit kritis - MD kritis have pretty straightforward Sanskrit. ST's Sanskrit is somewhat more esoteric and can be difficult to parse.

While we discuss this in terms of lyrics, we should not forget the fact that to a lot of people ( me included ), Nadopasana as a standalone vehicle is highly significant. I am using Nodopasana in the widest context possible: From enjoying music for the melody and rhythm to the ecstatic heights that the melody and rhythm takes one to.

Totally correct. That is the ultimate objective - for the rasik to become enthralled by pure music. But the content of the composition (the sahitya) is an essential facilitator of that goal. In CM the highest expression of combined melody and rhythm should actually be in the composition, not in the manodharma portions however good they may be. This is a critical foundation of CM emphasized by all important vaggeyakaras - if we leave it out then it loses much of its identity.

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 03 Feb 2008, 00:00

Sbala,

Thanks for your well-written thoughts.

sbala wrote:Truly special creations have a way of announcing themselves to the public.

Here I could not disagree more, especially in the context of high art, not popular culture. History is replete with examples of people whose works (whether art or science) remained poorly understood or appreciated in their lifetime. In the West, some of these issues have been recognized and appropriate steps initiated to try and make sure that great talent is not hidden by fatalism. It is not a perfect system but it does work. Indian art continues to operate under fatalistic principles - as I mentioned earlier in discussion with Uday Shankar, I think that the "truly great artists will announce themselves" approach is very damaging to the art.

As another example, there has been considerable "buzz" lately about Smt. Parassala Ponnamma (a Kerala musician) in the Chennai circuit. I agree she is truly special among musicians. That begs the question: if truly special artists have a way of announcing themselves to the public, why did this lady remain "unannounced" till the age of 85 ?

I'm a little bit skeptical when someone says Composer X is at the same level or even better than the Trinity. X already has the benefit of the Trinity's compositions. So, he/she could do incremental improvements with all the resources we have in the modern era. While that work deserves a mention, one should not resort to excessive praise and unfair comparisons with the greats of yore.

I agree - I have kept this discussion free to reference to specific composer X or Y. The main point is that all great art takes much time to be fully reflected upon and appreciated. The future generations will be main judge of today's composers, whereas we have sufficient hindsight to appreciate the 18th-century composers. When I said "there are composers of equal or greater merit than the Trinity", I am referring to other composers of that era.

Someone was talking of great institutions. A great institution is also defined as much by what it rejects.

And likewise for a not-so-great institution, which may end up rejecting a lot of good things. Specifically, as I mentioned in a previous post, the diversification of content in CM is hardly a bad thing. There is no technical nor aesthetic rationale that prevents it ("nehabhikramanashosti", as the Bhagavad Gita puts it) - it is pure exclusivism/tradition that prevents it.

I also do not understand when CM closed its doors. I have always felt it's been too flexible and could do with a little bit of control. It accepts different kinds of voices, new instruments and various techniques of playing them, a flexible concert format with krithis from multiple languages, widely varying concert venues and so on and so forth. It might have rejected many ideas during its evolution but any good system that wants to guard against mediocrity does so.

I did not say that CM has closed its doors in the past to novelty/reform, especially in the area of instruments, technique, and shortening of concert format. I said that the process must continue, now specifically with regard to content. I am not saying the process must happen today on a large scale, but it is inevitable and must not be disregarded before it is too late.

Again, mediocrity is not the issue here. Mediocrity should always be rejected by any good system. My specific reference was to diversifying the content beyond religious devotion. It would be interesting to know your opinion as to how that encourages mediocrity any more than mediocre religious-based compositions would.

Additionally, at this time in history, outside of CM there is no other music form in the world that is considered "classical" or "high art" and at the same time has a dominant religious base to it. It is also instructive to note that all of these evolved from a religious base. Essentially the choice is between exceptionalism/insularity and learning from history.

SR

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 03 Feb 2008, 00:14

Sangeet Rasik wrote:As another example, there has been considerable "buzz" lately about Smt. Parassala Ponnamma (a Kerala musician) in the Chennai circuit. I agree she is truly special among musicians. That begs the question: if truly special artists have a way of announcing themselves to the public, why did this lady remain "unannounced" till the age of 85 ?

SR

Hello SR,

The arguments in this thread have been terrific and so interesting? Why did you have to pay a left handed compliment to the old lady and then take a jab at her?
There could be many reasons for the "unannouncement". For all you know she may not have been interested. Even this year it was after a lot of pressure that she agreed to perform at 2 places at Chennai. And what a revelation she has been.
Carnatic Music is something you carry over many Janmas. Maybe the saga of Parasala Ponnamal has just begun!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 03 Feb 2008, 00:14

Mahamkalisai,

Mahamkalisai wrote:So,...friends let us end this topic here and go for another much tasteful one for discussions.

Thanks for your detailed thoughts. I am in full agreement with you. The topic of "is Telugu the best language for CM" is a non-issue in my opinion. If you notice, the discussion has moved to a different (though somewhat related) issue. I am emphasizing content versus language. It is up to the admins to tell us whether that discussion should proceed in a separate thread.

Best Wishes,
SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 03 Feb 2008, 00:27

cienu wrote:The arguments in this thread have been terrific and so interesting? Why did you have to pay a left handed compliment to the old lady and then take a jab at her?

What jab and what left-handed compliment ? I have highest respect for her. I expressed it in no uncertain terms.

There could be many reasons for the "unannouncement". For all you know she may not have been interested. Even this year it was after a lot of pressure that she agreed to perform at 2 places at Chennai.

Yes, of course there can be multiple reasons. As I mentioned in an old thread, many Kerala musicians feel little interest or compulsion to perform in Chennai. What I am saying is that it is not a good idea to assume that "great artists and great art will automatically announce themselves/itself to the public".

Carnatic Music is something you carry over many Janmas. Maybe the saga of Parasala Ponnamal has just begun!

I hope so. At the same time, it would have been even more wonderful for CM if it had begun 40 years ago !

SR

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 03 Feb 2008, 07:39

SR,
I looked at the Academy schedules a while back and Parasala Ponnamal has indeed performed there long time back. I would assume that the Academy did its bit to give her the opportunity. God knows what transpired after that.

As far as your thoughts on CM looking beyond Bhakti, it is definitely something I agree with provided the compositions are of a very high standard.

However, let us also look at two other artforms that have taken that approach as a case study. Yoga in India was also tighly coupled with Bhakti. BKS Iyengar came and revolutionised the asanas. Westerners got attracted to it then and are now taking Yoga in a completely different direction. They have removed the Bhakti component and made it an exercise form for health and fitness. So, we have new fads like Power Yoga, Partner Yoga and even Dog Yoga mushrooming. In another 20 years, India will have to turn to the West to understand yoga and I'm not saying the West would have done anything to improve the artform to merit such a turnaround. These developments are cancerous in nature. The lesson is it becomes very difficult to exercise control when you decouple the artform from Bhakti/religion. Please note that I'm not a Bhakti fanatic myself and I'm open to all kinds of themes but Bhakti does act as a good defence against invasion of foreign cultures.

Let's look at what dancers did. There were many who got fed up with the classical idiom and could not relate to the nayika pining for Krishna and felt it wasn't relevant to the modern times. However, they labeled themselves as modern/contemporary dancers and evolved that as a separate art. The themes are modern, sometimes disturbing, they use classical movements too, but it did not impact the fabric of the classical bharatnatyam concert. Its the same situation with Ballet in the West. I feel CM can take this approach of a parallel artform instead of messing around with something that is working well. It would ideally fit in somewhere between CM and film music which might make the transition easier for many.The integration with the classical idiom will happen when the parallel artform makes strong contributions that cannot be ignored.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 03 Feb 2008, 09:00

Sbala,

Thanks again for a measured response. My thoughts in reply:

sbala wrote:As far as your thoughts on CM looking beyond Bhakti, it is definitely something I agree with provided the compositions are of a very high standard.

This is a good approach - when introducing something new, it is always a good idea to keep high standards. Personally, I have no problem with it. Life is not always fair - people treading a new path may have to deal with the fact that people with "lower standards" may be more accepted simply because they fall within the existing paradigm.

In the specific case of CM, again I am not making this into a critique of any specific composer or musician of the past/present, but there is no lack of composers who claim to have highest respect for Trinity N' Tradition ("TNT"

) but whose compositions do not indicate any careful thought about what makes for high quality. One cannot have one's cake and eat it too. The people of "high standard" are always relatively few - whether they are solid "establishment" types or "new horizon" types. CM as an art should focus on appreciation of high quality, irrespective of whether the composition is religious or not.

I hope you discern what my hint is - there has to be a "set of standards" in order to judge what is "high standard". In CM (and in Indian music in general) the "set of standards" exists (both for vaggeyakaras and musicians) and has been laid down as early as Sharangadeva. Interestingly, being a "bhakta" or "writing religious compositions" is not one of the standards. But most people ignore these things and get easily influenced by cleverly created associations of artistic excellence with divine intervention and religious fervor.

However, let us also look at two other artforms that have taken that approach as a case study. Yoga in India was also tighly coupled with Bhakti. BKS Iyengar came and revolutionised the asanas. Westerners got attracted to it then and are now taking Yoga in a completely different direction. They have removed the Bhakti component and made it an exercise form for health and fitness. So, we have new fads like Power Yoga, Partner Yoga and even Dog Yoga mushrooming. In another 20 years, India will have to turn to the West to understand yoga and I'm not saying the West would have done anything to improve the artform to merit such a turnaround.

Frankly, who cares what the Westerners want to do with yoga ?

That being said, I believe the vast majority of Western yoga enthusiasts are sincere and genuinely benefit from it. There will always be a fringe of crackpots. The more interesting question to me is - why were the Westerners able to "usurp" Yoga from the Indians ? The answer is: because Indian yoga practitioners remained static and did nothing to evolve it into a continually vigorous form. When the art form loses dynamism it becomes vulnerable to "external attacks". Indian Yogis did not have the vision to accept change and take into account the rapidly evolving world. Additionally, it is extremely doubtful whether Yoga would remain popular in India today if it remained tightly coupled to bhakti. So in fact, what should have been a natural development in India did not occur, and instead external forces stepped in to fill the gap.

These developments are cancerous in nature. The lesson is it becomes very difficult to exercise control when you decouple the artform from Bhakti/religion. Please note that I'm not a Bhakti fanatic myself and I'm open to all kinds of themes but Bhakti does act as a good defence against invasion of foreign cultures.

I strongly disagree with this part of your post. First of all, the suggestion that new developments are necessarily "foreign" is superfluous. New developments from within are essential in order to keep things healthy and strong. Indeed, when there is a lack of internal dynamism, external attacks become stronger. In response there is an urge to exert "tighter control", which in turn leads to further weakness/closedmindedness and propagates a vicious cycle. The lack of diversification and inclusiveness is a hallmark of "tightly controlled" and insular environments which always collapse and die (whether it is communist countries, brahmanical Vedic schools, etc).

"Bhakti as a defense against foreign cultures" is a mindset existing probably due to memories of invaders (i.e. a defensive mechanism of an inferior culture against a dominating one). I agree it may have actually been useful in the past, but its value as a defense mechanism is highly doubtful now. The Middle East cloaks its strong economic, technological, and cultural inferiority with a "controlled" society based on Islamic "bhakti". Indians and Hindus hardly need to do so. We have all the resources to create dynamism in our own culture. For all the weaknesses of India, we are fortunate today to be citizens of a mighty nation where we have freedom and security. Thanks to many nationalists and a strong republic, the days of invasions and depredations are over (note that "bhaktas" and "yogis" couldn't make the military invaders disappear, and modern "bhaktas" and "yogis" will not be able to expel the cultural invaders either). It is not the time to be defensive, but rather aggressive and dynamic.

Let's look at what dancers did. There were many who got fed up with the classical idiom and could not relate to the nayika pining for Krishna and felt it wasn't relevant to the modern times. However, they labeled themselves as modern/contemporary dancers and evolved that as a separate art. The themes are modern, sometimes disturbing, they use classical movements too, but it did not impact the fabric of the classical bharatnatyam concert.

Again, there are always fringe developments which do not hold true to the fundamentals of the art form. This does not apply to the current discussion. It is all strongly dependent on how things are done. Counter-example: Kathakali, the classical dance form of Kerala, historically an analog to the Kalaripayatt martial arts. The former is flourishing today - not only due to shortening of the "concert format " but also due to the fact that non-Mahabharata/Ramayana themes (even acts of Shakespeare plays) are chosen and performed. The martial art is now enjoying a substantial revival, not as a training ground for soldiers as in the past, but as an instrument of discipline, fitness, and self-control for its practioners. This should have been done for Yoga as well but never really happened.

In CM (or Indian music in general) there is not a single written text that says that religious compositions are the most appropriate. In general, Indian classical music is dominantly secular - there is really no solid case for "bhakti" somehow being the "true" nature of Indian classical music. The coming generations will surely not hold this mindset.

I feel CM can take this approach of a parallel artform instead of messing around with something that is working well.

The point is - it is not working well. In 1700 CE, "Carnatic Music" (i.e. Indian music with no substantial Islamic influence) commanded a very good following stretching from Gujarat to Kanyakumari. Today even northern Karnataka (and possibly even northern Andhra) is much more influenced by Hindustani music. CM is now followed essentially in Tamil Nadu, Kerala, and southern parts of Karnataka and Andhra. Even among the CM rasiks (especially the younger generation) there is growing disinterest and boredom with the same old religious themes and bhakti-based compositions. Many simply switch over to listening to HM. For example, I live in a large US city where there is both CM and HM music activity. More than 50% of the attendance in HM concerts is from south Indians, yet I rarely (or never) see the same south Indians in the CM concerts. In India things may be a little different at the present time, but the direction is the same.

It would ideally fit in somewhere between CM and film music which might make the transition easier for many.The integration with the classical idiom will happen when the parallel artform makes strong contributions that cannot be ignored.

I believe this idea is completely unworkable. Labeling CM based on non-religious themes as "between CM and film music" is insulting to both the practitioners as well as to the past composers. This is nothing but insularity and exclusivism based on a lack of willingness to learn history. The elements of Indian civilization that freed themselves from insularity are thriving (e.g. Vedanta philosophy, Hindustani music) whereas those that failed to do so (e.g., Vedic schools) are dead/dying.

Quality within the technical scope of CM is the one and only measure that should be applied. As I said before, "upacharamu jesevarunnarani maravaku ra". Just because there are plenty of people doing puja and loudly proclaiming their bhakti (read: people claiming devotion to TNT), do not ignore the people who truly have the interests of the art form at heart. I could say the same thing in a much more blunt manner, but hopefully this "nice" way of saying it will be better appreciated.

Best Wishes,
SR

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 03 Feb 2008, 09:11

Trinity and the others .....

Raising the level is the function of the Champion.
A considerable number of people found they could run the four minute mile once Roger Bannister had done it.

From the essay by Susan Sontag-Dancer and the Dance
(Book titled WHERE THE STRESS FALLS - Essays.
.. Random House Publications)

Trinity - TRUE CHAMPIONS

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 03 Feb 2008, 09:22

Coolkarni-ji,

coolkarni wrote:Trinity - TRUE CHAMPIONS

That is not in question at all. All CM vaggeyakaras stand on their shoulders. The question is what we do with their legacy. "Upacharamu" or "Sadacharamu" ?

If we consider the Trinity as true champions, let us also take steps to ensure that their art does not die a slow death and become irrelevant to our rapidly changing society.

SR

PS: Glad to see you back to this forum.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Feb 2008, 09:40

For a well-researched Phd work on the transformation of Carnatic Music in the past century, I recommend people check out the book: Singing the Classical, Voicing the Modern: The Postcolonial Politics of music in South India By Amanda J. Weidman. We talked about this book in some other context and since then I got the book from our library and read it. It is definitely a good read, whether you agree with her thesis of the author or not.

Here is the book excerpts from Google: http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id= ... 00#PPP1,M1

It does not address quite what we are discussing here but the relevance to this thread is in its investigation of the changes that had already occurred to the practise of CM in the past 100 years. One chapter is devoted to the issue of language ( mainly the Tamil Isai movement ) but the focus is in tracing when the language of the compositions became significant and why.

One refreshing aspect of the book is it deals with a lot of turf level issues which are often not pretty and may run against the grain of common beliefs.

Just as a teaser, Amanda's thesis is Carnatic Music practise changed quite a bit as a reaction to various happenings during colonial times. One may ask why one needs a whole book to make such a point but the actual details are quite involved and some of her conclusions may not be widely acceptable to us.

nathikan · Post by **nathikan** » 03 Feb 2008, 12:25

Sangeet Rasik wrote:In general, Indian classical music is dominantly secular

Could you expand on this comment, please? In what sense is ICM dominantly secular?

I find your call for more secular compositions heartening, personally, and I have often wondered why, when there are so many relatively recent/20th c compositions in the current Carnatic repertoire, that there should be so few secular compositions. (I do wonder about Sanskrit's supposed appeal to the intelligensia -- the same people who would be attracted by secular compositions to Carnatic music would be dissuaded by Sanskrit, I think.)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Feb 2008, 15:10

Sangeet Rasik not only calls for more secular works in CM, but he has also composed several impressive kritis in sanskrit...