Histrionics in music - NY Times article

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 07 Feb 2008, 13:46

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/06/arts/ ... 6look.html

Their Rubinstein, our Voleti?

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 07 Feb 2008, 14:55

Excellent article. I remember Sowmya referring to such tendencies in CM during a lecdem by Smt. Vedavalli.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 07 Feb 2008, 21:15

Our Kunnakudi,
Their ???........

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 08 Feb 2008, 04:04

Our MDR and their ?

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 08 Feb 2008, 05:36

I'd say, their Rubinstein, our Ramabhadran!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Feb 2008, 10:15

Rubenstein's vivacity and Ramabhadran's composure??

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 08 Feb 2008, 10:21

Did I misinterpret the article? I read the caption that says:

Arthur Rubinstein was known for keeping his head and torso still while playing.

And that immediately reminded me of Sri Ramabhadran.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Feb 2008, 13:56

Bernard Holland comes off highly opinionated ( may be that is his job but still... ). It is all fluff with a patrnozing attitude. Another one of those 'what ails classical music and what is good for the youth by an all-knowing guardian" This is one of those rhetorical techniques of using examples of extreme histrionics to preach a personal value judgement that stillness is good and only stillness is good :shurg:

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 08 Feb 2008, 14:24

Not being very familiar with Western Classical music, I can't comment on whether Holland sounds opinionated or patronizing - however, I posted the article just to put it out there that even in a different form of music, similar themes can be discussed and commented upon. We have discussed this issue here at length a while ago...

braindrain · Post by **braindrain** » 08 Feb 2008, 14:50

Daniel Levitin, in his book "This is your brain on Music" talks about the same..

"Studies are also shown that non-musician listeners are exquisitely sensitive to the physical gestures of the musicians. By watching musical performance with the sound turned off, and attending to things like the musicians arm, shoulder and torso movements, ordinary listeners can detect a great deal of expressive intent of the musician"

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Feb 2008, 16:00

It is a very difficult thing to judge.

On the whole, I would say that my ideal is still composure. If the artist is totally overwhelmed, possessed even, by the music he is performing, then I want to be able to hear that in the music and the sound. If I am unaware of it, that is my loss. When I need entertainment with Really Big Wow, Get This, It's My Ultimate pointers, I'll go to a circus.

I recall (as I may have done here before) watching The Grateful Dead's last (of regretably few) performance in London. One of the things that struck me was how it was a just a bunch of guys that walked on stage, played and sang. What they played and sang was magnificent. So there even seems to be a parallel here in the traditionally more theatrical world of rock music.

Mind you, I wish I'd had the opportunity to see some of Hendrix's on-stage dramatics...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Feb 2008, 21:28

mri-fan,
Apologies. What was I thinking?
I know, I was subject to one of those tricks age plays ( you have a long time to go before you understand what I am saying!). I was visualizing Leonard Bernstein while I typed!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Feb 2008, 22:14

prashant, it is good you posted the link.and I understand the reasons you posted. Thanks.

Nick, what you say covers the extremes: stillness vs circus... but then there is a whole wide middle. Some physical expression need not take away from the beauty and quality of the music. And in many cases, such physical expressions need not be a conscious act to impress others or a show-off.

For me, extreme histrionics is highly distracting and I can not focus on the music. But bhavam laden movement of the body and head in accordance with the music being played, and not as a conscious act but just carried by the emotion of the moment, is part of the live concert experience. That tells me the performer is not a robot but a thinking and feeling human.

While we are at it, how about rasikas' physical mannerisms, like shaking heads in agreement/appreciation etc.. Imagine the organizer asking us to be perfectly still

And imagine, just to comply, rasikas had trained themselves just to move the lips just so little to express the extreme plesure they feel at an excellent Thodi pidi since they can not even express a simple 'ah ha'...

Anyway, not a big deal but I was ticked off, as a first impression, at the extreme prescriptive attitude of Holland and phrasing it in the overall context of 'what is wrong with the system?'.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Feb 2008, 23:09

Perhaps his 'system' tends to encourage, or even glorify this unmusical excess, and I think the kind of musician of whom he speaks might have us laughing if we watch as a silent film. I think also he is sad to see the young so encouraged: the pianist in the photograph seems to be a cartoon caricature of a musician.

But I agree with you entirely, and, of course, my definition of 'just playing' is not so strict as demand no expression.

appu · Post by **appu** » 08 Feb 2008, 23:41

Where would one classify an artist like great and late Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan??????Extreme histrionics or a "Body in Motion"

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Feb 2008, 23:49

Nick, just so we all get what Holland is referring to. Lang Lang is pictured though I do not think he is mentioned in the article. What is surprising to me is the 'preachy' tone with respect to why young people do not show up to WCM concerts. Lang Lang is a huge phenomenon because of his stage mannerisms ( and piano playing of course ) and audiences go wild during his performances. He IS a huge hit among young people and he is the one who is getting young people to WCM. That is quite an unorthodox sight for a WCM concert. Holland is trying to safeguard the orthodoxy. Which is fine but what is confusing is his portrayal of Lang Langish mannerisms turning off young people. I just don't get that. It is the opposite that is happening ( I do not have any personal like or dislike of Lang Lang. If you watch/listen to him, it sounds very entertaining, but outside of that I do not know enough to form any opinion about his music itself ).

It is funny you refer to his picture as a 'cartoon caricature of a musician'.. The story goes that when he was a small kid Lang Lang became obsessed with a Tom & Jerry cartoon in which Tom the cat plays piano with paws flying in all directions. Lang Lang, the kid, wanted to play as fast as Tom

I happened to catch a litle segment about him on National Public Radio and he himself was saying that fast finger technique and all is good but what is important is the creative mind.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Feb 2008, 00:02

Thanks for that, you're much better informed than I am --- and yes, it does rather take away from the argument, if it follows the path as you say.

Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan is... well, isn't his style of qwali (spelling?) almost as much preaching as it is music? I may be way off on this. Forgive my ignorance. I've seen him sing --- but eventually gave away my CDs by him.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 09 Feb 2008, 06:51

--- but eventually gave away my CDs by him.

Oh My God !
You gave away the video album of the performance at the University of Aston- Birmingham too.?(commercial)

Where he sings about the time he made a statue -a Likeness of God in stone- and it became a God and started talking to him.
Or another one where he soothes a tormented soul asking him not to worry that darkness has set all over --- It is time for stars to come out.

In my younger days , getting a place to stand to watch football matches would be tricky since there were no stadiums.Quite often I used to get a place to stand around the Corner flag .and as one of the players would get hold of a pass and start moving towards our corner of the field to make an approach , it was difficult to stand erect .The whole crowd to one side of me would be leaning unconsciously on me -enblock- and that would remain so until the ball moved away from our side to the centrestage.
The only other place I have found such rapturous movements is a Qawwali Program(and you can add Namadev Temples in late night abhang session).
Obviously if one is able to watch the histrionics , he is not watching the music

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Feb 2008, 10:02

VK,
I thought of several performers and tried to match their music to their body language. I realize that the excessively expressive ones just amuse me (as Nick says) more than annoy me. A tad distracting, perhaps, in some cases. No more than that. Reaching the upper stAyi simply cannot be done with folded hands!
As you say, a body language-less vidvAn more or less stands for a non-involved singer to me. Of course, there are exceptions...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Feb 2008, 12:46

Cool... yes, I have philistine tendencies too!

My NFAK CDs went to a better, and more appreciative home.

I'd probably better not admit that I can't stand football --- or you might give up on me altogether!

nathikan · Post by **nathikan** » 09 Feb 2008, 16:54

Surprised KR Vaidyanathan has not been mentioned in this thread. His mannerisms are entertaining because they suit his antic way of playing, though I don't know if I could take that level of emoting to be the exception rather than the rule. One thing that interested in me in learning is music is how rapturous musicians seemed on stage, as if this was really teh most fun a person could have.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 09 Feb 2008, 20:53

Kumar Gandharva singing Kamod:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk_DGFvTlu0

At one point he almost gets up from behind the microphone (around 02:45)!

Inspired and brilliant performance. Plenty of facial and hand gestures. I think this was recorded from an old DD broadcast.

Amir Khan singing Malkauns:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhVE4sQIdS0

A picture of repose, with only very restrained left-hand gestures. Also truly a "sangeet samrat" of the modern day.

SR

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 09 Feb 2008, 23:25

Thanks SR....The taans are good (I thought KG was supposed to have a bad voice - nothing wrong in that clip though!) but I thought it was rather too exuberant...fun watching the tabalchee though - every performer should get such an accompanist!

And look what I found while browsing through youtube...brilliant, I thought - also some food for thought for participants in the secular music thread (I am not necessarily saying that secular music will inevitably result in something this - just flagging a potential concern). Of course you could reasonably argue that there is nothing wrong with it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj14mFPg ... re=related

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 10 Feb 2008, 06:52

SR ,

That was a terrific clip of Kumar Gandharva. Brilliant.
There are 4 Tampura Accompaniments!! (can be seen at 1.39 mins). Speaks a lot for Shruthi Shudham of HM.

Vijay, Yes the Tabla accompanist was fantastic and his cheerfulness was exuberant.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 10 Feb 2008, 08:55

cienu
Recommended Reading
http://www.amazon.com/Musical-Journey-K ... 8170944759

His fascination for THAT perfect Sruthi is covered very exhaustively here.There is reference to his belief that he was in search for perfection in Sruthi in order to look for a Metaphorical opening through it to divinity- as though he was looking for a window to a Fourth dimension of existence.
And that was the reason he used two or more Tanpuras.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 10 Feb 2008, 19:12

Coolji,

Thanks a lot for the link. Shall definitely read this.

That explains the "obsession" of Kumar Gandharva and also of most Hindustani Musicians with Sruti. Though definitely more "secular" than CM, "Sruti Shudam" has been elevated to the status of divinity nee Saraswati Herself in HM !!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 12 Feb 2008, 08:30

cienu wrote:There are 4 Tampura Accompaniments!! (can be seen at 1.39 mins). Speaks a lot for Shruthi Shudham of HM.

Yes, indeed. I believe one of the tanpura accompanists was Gandharva's son (Mukul ?). The room/studio must have been reverberating with the sound of four properly tuned tanpuras !! Quite a contrast, I might add, from the typical sangeet sabha with janta walking in and out at random (or standing at the back to check out an item or two without actually sitting down).

Now I understand that every small hall cannot be expected to come up to the same standards, but still the organizers should pay some attention to the creation of a good musical atmosphere. This in itself calms both the performers and the audience, and avoids the "sweating blood and producing rubbish" results of many a performance. In my experience the Kerala folks take proper care to create such atmosphere.

Even things like simplicity and elegance in dress (i.e., not being dressed like you are getting married) go a significant way in the overall atmosphere. Too many "bling kings" (and queens) today on the circuit !

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 12 Feb 2008, 08:37

vijay wrote:Thanks SR....The taans are good (I thought KG was supposed to have a bad voice - nothing wrong in that clip though!) but I thought it was rather too exuberant...

Yes, the tabla guy was indeed enthusiastic, but he was only appreciating the music (and histrionics) of the main performer. Since this thread was on histrionics, I posted an example of a musician essentially acting out the lyrics and mood of the composition, which expresses annoyance at the incessant monsoon rains and complains that the sun is not to be seen for many days. Kumar Gandharva's histrionics very effectively convey this - he looks personally aggrieved at the imagined monsoon situation and he takes it quite seriously, till the end (when he breaks out into a smile after a job well done).

And look what I found while browsing through youtube...brilliant, I thought - also some food for thought for participants in the secular music thread (I am not necessarily saying that secular music will inevitably result in something this - just flagging a potential concern). Of course you could reasonably argue that there is nothing wrong with it...

Narastuti - the act of praising someone in person through music, in their presence, for some financial or other personal benefit - has nothing to do with secular music or religious music. It is sycophancy plain and simple, and has existed from time immemorial. A far cry from music composed to honor genuinely great people from all walks of life - even though they may not be the stereotypical "sadhu-sant".

SR

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 12 Feb 2008, 10:54

SR, didn't mean Narastuti but the atmosphere in general - the smoking and drinking and all...somehow I wouldn't like to see CM become like this... but also agree that it is not entirely fair to say that secular lyrics will inevitably lead to this....

I didn't pay any attention to the lyrics (quite typical of me!) so thanks for pointing it out...maybe I'll take another look now!

shanks · Post by **shanks** » 12 Feb 2008, 18:22

Guess you are aware that Kumar Gandharva lived most of his life with only one of his lungs functional. He made substantial changes to his singing style to overcome his limited capacity - the reason why you see him break for a breath. And he does so well that one would think associate with his singing style.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Feb 2008, 21:12

Vijay,
Watch out, with statements like 'I don't pay attention to the lyrics', with composers buzzing around! Nice to see SR being a bit light hearted. Otherwise, you have to be more careful! Hope Ramaraj is feeling better every day, and jis able to join us soon.
Seriously, when singers and listeners pay a bit more attention to the words, the bhAvA level in a concert soars too...

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 12 Feb 2008, 21:27

Arasi I did not mean to undermine the importance of sahithya but it's just that when I listen to classical music the music/tune registers much more strongly than the words...usually I remmeber the first two words but not much more - even in case of languages I am familar with! That is merely my limitation...and entirely my loss...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Feb 2008, 22:32

If I don't use a

here, a few may take me to be a militant vAggEyakArA.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 17 Feb 2008, 16:53

http://rapidshare.com/files/92520485/RU ... YWHERE.MPG

Govindrao Patwardhan on the harmonium