What is a raga?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Feb 2006, 02:10

sUtrakAra would say 'ra~njatE iti rAga' and then you would have come the full circle

nallanchakra · Post by **nallanchakra** » 28 Feb 2006, 05:51

A raga creates a certain emotion in you. Depending upon the true inner nature of oneself, each person has a certain natural affinity towards certain raga or a group of raga's. Only psychologists can delve into this why only specific ragas for a person?. I certainly get moved by Sahana-reethigowla-andolika-surati-nattakurinji.? is there a common connection to these ragas? I dont know. I dont even know the technical aspects of it, yet I'm moved by these ragas. A raga then can be defined as one which can influence a mood of a person. Then the sanskrit mnemonic defnition is the best. We have come a full circle.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Feb 2006, 07:41

What does 'ra~njatE iti rAga' mean? I feel I should know what it means, but I don't. Is it a circular definition? I am trying to get the 'full circle' humor.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Feb 2006, 09:18

vk

What I said is partly fun and partly zen. The sanskrit sUtra simply states that 'raga is that which pleases or delights'. Since it is in the realm of the individual it is zen which you have to individually discover. Though there are existing CM ragas with a clear definitions of do's-and-don'ts you could always violate the rules and name it a new raga as long as some folks find it enjoyable. That is what I meant by 'full circle' since you now have to start allover again! In a way it is like the upaniShadic definition of 'God' himself using 'nEti nEti' but the definition being never complete...

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 28 Feb 2006, 10:02

nallanchakra

For the records If I have to chose only one favourite it would be
Raga Yaman in CM
and
Raga Bhairavi in CM

nallanchakra · Post by **nallanchakra** » 28 Feb 2006, 10:57

coolkarniji

Thanks - then you may be a bhairavi person?

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 02 Mar 2006, 10:12

CML

you were absolutely right when you say that it is something that one has to discover it for himself.

For decades I was brought up with the idea of Rag marwa being a raga of melancholy.And whenever I heard Amir khan and others sing it ,
the idea kept getting reinforced.
(In a rare video recording , His wife admites that He was depressed for over five years after which he gave his now-very-famous rendering of Marwa.
Here is a video sample from that documentary )
http://rapidshare.de/files/14476407/MARWA-AMIR.MPG.htm

And then comes the internet age , great connections and I am led like a schoolboy to that imposing personality called bade ghulam ali khan in this video and he says "Marwa is all about Veer ras "

http://rapidshare.de/files/14476898/MARWA-BADE.MPG.html

(Srkris- I just cannot thank you enough for taking to me that wonderful home in alwarpet for this treasure !)

So nowadays , I listen to Bade's marwa in the morning and amir khan's marwa in the night ...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Mar 2006, 11:53

...so you wakeup as a Lion and retire as a Pussycat;-)

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 09 Mar 2006, 12:54

vk
some more food for thought

issues of the the delicate difference

chakravakam-ahir bhairav
charukesi-sankarabharanam

http://rapidshare.de/files/15052010/cha ... s_mani.mp3
http://rapidshare.de/files/15051952/cha ... s_mani.mp3

sumram99 · Post by **sumram99** » 09 Mar 2006, 21:50

Coolkarniji,

The video clipping of Bade Ghulam Ali Khan Saheb was too good! Thank you! Towards the end of the clipping, Khansaheb started the chota khayal in Shankara which has left me thirsty for more. If you happen to have the complete recording can you post the same? Its simply awesome!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Mar 2006, 06:39

Thanks coolkarniji on the GS Mani uploads here and in the 'GS Mani Vidwan' thread.

I want to mention one thing. GS Mani makes the very valid point that experienced musicians find a huge space in between two swaras that may normally be considered close together ( in his words, as wide as Mylapore

).

That is pretty much the same point RR Menon makes in his book Indian Music The Magic Of The Raga that you have provided some excerpts before. RR Menon's way of getting at this point is: Initially you walk a single swarasthanam as sharply as a knife's edge or as on a tightrope but as you get comfortable with that swara, that knife's edge turns into a broad platform...

This kind of artisitic description of the raga makes a lot of sense than bringing in the sruthi theory and all, which can get very controversial.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Mar 2006, 07:52

vk

shouldn't we also look at how a raga is created? BMK is great at inventing new ranjaka raga! How does one go about it? There are hundreds of ragas in HM which are so delightful and it is a pity that they do not appear in CM. Take for example the restriction of the dvimadhyamam in CM which prevents a host of HM ragas. Why is it necessary? Our gifted composers (I am having in mind DRS) should attempt to compose kritis that bring out the beauty of these exotic ragas. Again we rasikas must have an open mind to apprciate the beauty rather than musing on the grammar of the raga!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 10 Mar 2006, 09:43

sumram99
well that was the opening line of his rendering of Hamsadhwani.but yes he sings hamsadhwani with such a touch of sankara.
the full rendering is not in this 30 minute video (i can ask Sharma tor badri to upload it in full ) but i did post -LAST YEAR-a great Ramanavami Bangalore concert 1956 of BGAK here.A full 3 1/2 hour concert featuring , hold your breath-Yaman , Hamsadhwani , Malkauns , Thumris , Kedar and Finally darbari.One cant even call it a collectors items.It is a concert fit for the Gods.
Wonder if badri can post it at his convenience.Otherwise I will have to do it the slow way .whenever that happens, PLEASE GRAB IT.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 10 Mar 2006, 14:34

CML
I totally agree with you. We should request sri DRS to do that..

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Mar 2006, 14:38

shouldn't we also look at how a raga is created?

Interestingly, this is one of the questions my friend asked me as well. My response is, 'that is a great question... and you think I know the answer?'

Floating stream of consciousness type ideas....

a) If I hear a good melodic hook in whatever musical genre and it has a distinct 'new' identify, I would think that will form a good base for a new raga. Then someone talented can try to CMize it. Some may work others may not but it is worth a try.

b) We can take some clues from the success of Kathanakuthoohalam. Those kind of melodic hooks with a great song that exploits them, will go a long way to popularizing the raga. One question to ponder is: Kuthoohalam did not quite make it as much as Kathanakuthoohalam did... why?

c) These all apply to the so called 'alpa' ragas ( unfortunate terminology since some great ragas fit into such a category ). But how about a new raga with as much weight as a Thodi or a Bhairavi? What qualities does the raga creator needs to put into such a raga and what practical processes need to take place in the real world for it to make it as a main raga in a concert by many leading performers? Are there any ragas of recent origin that had achieved that status?

d) CML, you mentioned about the dvimadhyamam restriction in CM. It is really not as much a restriction as it is a relative rarity. Others can pitch in with examples ( Saranga ?). I guess most of them are HM imports. I am way out of my little league here.. Even in HM they do not allow the two Madhyamams to be in used in sequence, do they?

I also second CML's request to DRS to try CMizing attractive dvimadhyamam ragas from HM.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 13 Mar 2006, 09:36

VK
In response to your points.

The most important thing about creating/discovering a new rAga is inspiration. rAgas take shape and life only in moments of inspirAtion.

Point (a) is correct to a degree. But all melodic "hooks" do not necessarily translate into a nidus for building a new rAga. So may other things will come ino consideartion such as-

1) Can this particular phrase/"hook" be accommodated into CM?

2) What other parts/swaras need to be added to make this a rAga?

3) Can it be sung/negotiated with reasonable ease?

4) Is it of sufficient melodic value to be liked by listeners?

5) How different will this new rAga be from other known rAgas?

6) What swaras or gamakas need to be emphasised in the rAga?

7) Most importantly, is the person who gets the inspiration able to give it a form by composing a lakShya(kRti or tillAna). A rAga structure and melody can only be understood and appreciated when sung as a composition. Otherwise it simply does not take shape and dies prematurely.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 13 Mar 2006, 09:45

-----
c) These all apply to the so called 'alpa' ragas ( unfortunate terminology since some great ragas fit into such a category ). But how about a new raga with as much weight as a Thodi or a Bhairavi? What qualities does the raga creator needs to put into such a raga and what practical processes need to take place in the real world for it to make it as a main raga in a concert by many leading performers? Are there any ragas of recent origin that had achieved that status?------ .

Rome was not built in a day. To start looking for a new rAga as weighty as tODi or bhairavi would be a sure way to frustration and failure. rAgas gain weight by centuries of use and experimentation and innovation. They dont happen in a day. I should think it impossible to have a new rAga with as much weight. Possibly some existing rAgas whose potential has not been explored fully might gain weight with time.

But a rAga need not necessarily be weeighty to be popular. Take kathanakutUhala itself:- this is certainly not weighty but very popular. Some rAgas have survived in sole compositions. It is the genius of a composer that can breathe life int a rAga. Minor rAgs with catchy phrases can become extremely popular. In fact I would say they are more likely to gain popularity than a weighty rAga. Much innovation does not have to be done on the part of the singer. A tukkaDa is fine. It only involves learning the song you see.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 13 Mar 2006, 09:51

In a documentary on Gangubai Hangal which was screened recently in chennai , the interviewer asks a student :
"How many ragas have you learnt'.
The student replies :"for the past three years i have been studying only yaman"

puzzled , the interviewer later asks Gangubai ,
"why yaman only .and for so long?!"

Gangubai Replies "there is so much of unlearning that has to take place you see .And it is highly individual.Why, when my Guru Sawai Gandharv taught us , it was always on a one to one basis.It was his deep conviction that a Bhimsen -Yaman was totally different from Gangubai-Yaman

More strange was the case of Chaurasia , when he went to Annapurna Devi for higher learning.Not happy with the proficiency he had acquired with other masters , she is reported to have declined to teach ,saying "it would be impossible for me to teach with the knowledge that you have acquired till now.How could I ever make you forget all that you have learnt and start afresh !?

Chaurasias answer was to switch over from right hand playing to left hand as the only way of reassuring her of his earnest desire to learn from her.and the rest as we know is history.

Wonder how we can fit this element into the definitions !!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 13 Mar 2006, 09:53

------
d) CML, you mentioned about the dvimadhyamam restriction in CM. It is really not as much a restriction as it is a relative rarity. Others can pitch in with examples ( Saranga ?). I guess most of them are HM imports. I am way out of my little league here.. Even in HM they do not allow the two Madhyamams to be in used in sequence, do they? ----.

By dvimadhyama rAga is meant rAgas where M1 and M2 are juxtaposed. Hence sAranga, hammIru and yamunAkalyANi do not fit the bill. CM does not allow such rAgas. The 2 swaras being vivAdi should not be adjacent to each other. In HM, however, although this restriction was there before, rAgas with the 2 madhyamas adjacent do occur- e.g lalit Maharajapuram Santhanam has sung "rAghavEndra daya tOro" in this rAga).
I think they are called thATadhvamsi meaning destroyer of thATs as thATs/mELas cannot have 2 madhyamas beside each other. There is so much in CM as it is that has not been explored sufficiently. I think it is uncalled for to alter the basic structure by innovating with 2 madhyamas side by side.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Mar 2006, 11:34

DRS, thanks for all the explanations, opinions and expansions on this topic. I am with you all the way.

On the melodic hook and the potential for CMizing it along the lines you have outlined, I have thought of some potential candidates. One of them, from a completely non-indian source, when I first heard it, it sounded in the neighbordhood of kApi but not quite kApi. If we decorate it with CM nuances, we can call it Videshi kApi

I do not know if you or anyone else is interested in checking it out, but just in case you do, here are the details. ( Duke Ellington, Album: Piano Reflections, Track: Melancholia. The same song with the melody line substituted with vocals: Norah Jones, Album: Feels Like Home, Track: Don't miss you at all ). I have a tendency to pattern match and relate things that may not quite relate, so if you do check it out, let me know which way this one falls.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Mar 2006, 12:16

DRS

you are quite right! The dvimadhyama mELas use both the madhyamas and they extend the total meLas to 108 (72+36). I guess Kalyanaraman(?) did compose and sing some kritis in them. (coolkarni can you help?). Also kartik knows more about them if he is watching this thread. Of course they are in violation of CM grammar!

here is some free thinking! The FM field has spawned a number of popular and emotive 'tunes'. The music directors (MSV, ILayaraja, Subbaraman..) were all CM trained and they capitalized on their CM knowledge to create those tunes. Many of them do not fit intto raga framework. WhY? In the olden days many devotional composers (eg., Neelakanta sivan) composed songs which were exotic and called them 'meTTu'. The mettu (eg., the original 'vaLLikkaNan pErai' or the most popular 'vaNNaan vanthaanDi' (1930s))was just a catchy tune but could not be elevated to the level of a raga since it violated the grammar. This is where some innovations and adjustments are needed.

here is a wild suggestion. Let our hitech wizards develop algorithms like the 'genetic programming' where the phrases will be generated using the 'annealing' strategy they will evolve and only the fittest will survive. The idea has been used quite successfully in solving a number of intractable math as well as business problems. It cannot be fitted in a closed form mathematically. But then closed solution is not necessaarily attainable under complexity!. Is there anybody listening and who understands what I am talking about?
(I would love to disuss the ideas under the 'technical section' if chembai would create it following my request!)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Mar 2006, 13:02

here is a wild suggestion. Let our hitech wizards develop algorithms like the 'genetic programming' where the phrases will be generated using the 'annealing' strategy they will evolve and only the fittest will survive. The idea has been used quite successfully in solving a number of intractable math as well as business problems. It cannot be fitted in a closed form mathematically. But then closed solution is not necessaarily attainable under complexity!. Is there anybody listening and who understands what I am talking about?
(I would love to disuss the ideas under the 'technical section' if chembai would create it following my request!)

I have some experience with complex systems, the ones with positive and negative feedback.... but not in the genetic programming kind of stuff.. Anyway, we will pick this back up to whatever extent we(I) can at the technical section and try to understand how that all fits in to ragas.

The one technology that I am reminded of is this: http://www.hitsongscience.com/index.php

Record industry executives seem to like it but I am not sure if it is good for music in general since it may perpetuate more of the same.
Anyway, I am not saying what you mentioned is same as this. This just came to my mind.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 13 Mar 2006, 22:59

I have conceived a new rAga- kAntaswara. Reposting it from my thread as it is relevant to the discussion here.

http://rapidshare.de/files/15397123/nay ... h.wma.html

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Mar 2006, 23:20

clap! CLAP!! CLAP!!!

Welcome to kAnta(kutUhalam). Yes I do see a lot of kAthanakuthUhalam here. But it is different too! I am ecstatic about the ciTTaswarm. Now give me time to digest the new find! The lyric is equally nice and do post it first! I am sure this is a janya of dheerashankarabharaNam. My comments are at the first blush. (give me time to catch my breath!) I need to study it more leisurely. Any way this is what I expected of you! CONGRATULATIONS! And Thanks!
Shouldn't we discuss this legitimately under your own thread?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 13 Mar 2006, 23:35

Thanks CML
I have already posted this in my thread and we wil continue discussions there.