Maintaining the tempo

naaree · Post by **naaree** » 16 Mar 2006, 00:58

I have recently started to learn CM. While rendering krithis, my tempo seems to be very inconsistent, usually picking up speed

. Is there any device that can help (visually or thru audible beats) me in improving this situation. I am only aware of the metronome's available in the market that are able to handle adi talam. Are there any other devices that help with rupakam and other chapu thalams? Any input into this will be of great help.

Thanks in advance

meena · Post by **meena** » 16 Mar 2006, 01:05

electronic tala meter:

DELETED

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Mar 2006, 11:26

Interestingly I could not find out how much the thala meter costs. They seem to take great pains not to display the price readily or I do not know how to surf their site. Have you found out the price for the thala mater? Thanks.

meena · Post by **meena** » 16 Mar 2006, 11:51

vk

radel online does display the price for each product, - for this u have to shop online!!! or u could email them they are very prompt!

Ha i can be their spokesperson

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Mar 2006, 12:35

Thanks Meena. I actually clicked before on buy online, but since it asked about where I want the product shipped etc. I stopped without continuing. Now I know.. they do display the prices in the subsequent page. Sort of unusual page organization, I suppose. Anyway......

It is around Rs.2700. Here is an observation which may be an indication of the times. I have noticed that for many people in India these days spending a thousand or 3 thousand rupees, they do not blink an eye. I saw this, I was thinking, "66 dollars! That sounds expensive!!"

May be I am spoiled by other electronic stuff costing so less, like a DVD player for $10, anything above $50.00 seems to be in a different price plane....

That is probably the right ball park price, so I am not really quibbling about the price, especially if it provides valuable service and works well.

Does anyone have experience with this? Is it better than any thala software? ( BTW, Is there any thala software? ). I am curious about the gathi support that the thala meter is advertised to provide.

The one thing I thought will be useful for practice is a combination of the thala meter and the sruthi box.

naaree · Post by **naaree** » 16 Mar 2006, 18:10

If some one can share their experience using this instrument, as vasanthakokilam has eluded to, would greatly appreciate that.

http://www.metronomeonline.com/, allows certain ranges. But still does not provide all BPM (Beats per minute) ranges. The chapu thalams are missing as well.

NS

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 21 Mar 2006, 09:26

Why not buy a simple metronome ($ 10-15) instead of all this fancy meters? Or am I missing something?
Ravi

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Mar 2006, 09:32

It will help with practice if it shows which beat of the thalam it is in at any time.

ajsriram · Post by **ajsriram** » 27 Mar 2006, 10:36

Hi,

Try this one for PocketPC, I am using it. I find it very simple and easy to use. Only thing that you cant do with this is sankeerna nadai.

you can download the same from http://www.seguemd.com/pockettune/
(Freeware)

i like one feature which is really cool.. It displays color for each beat. We can easily identify the Samam, or Arai Avarthana samam with this.

It will support 5/4 and 7/4 where you can use it for kanda Sarbu Thalam and Misra Sarbu Thalam (Sarbu Maruvi thirunthu Chaapu enna mariyathu)

You can use this for Aadi, Thisra Ekam, Kanda chapu and Misra chapu.

naaree · Post by **naaree** » 27 Mar 2006, 18:22

That one is so cool. Unfortnuately I have PALM devices.

. Curious though. Does this disable the device from going into powersave mode?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Mar 2006, 00:01

A cursory glance at that page did not tell me if thalams and nadais are preprogrammed. Is that something that each one of us need to preprogram or there are presets based on western rhythmic concepts and we pick the ones for our thalams that maps to that?

ajsriram · Post by **ajsriram** » 28 Mar 2006, 23:52

Naree : YES.

Vk : Its just that you have to set the meter to 2/4. 4/4 ,3/4 or what ever, and sound will differ for each beat, and colors will differ for each beat.
it supports till 8. (2,3,4,5,6,7,8).

Regards
Sriram J. Iyer

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Apr 2006, 11:55

Make life hard for yourself!

Buy a simple, cheap metronome from a local music shop to help yourself keep the temp, and use your hand to keep track of talam.

I am a great one for gadgets, but I think having too many props as a student encourages weakness.

I have one of the old 'big-wooden-box' talometers. Really, I wasted my money --- it has seldom been off the shelf.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 26 Apr 2006, 12:28

I too have one of the older type of tala meters and only use it when I can't find anyone to put talam for me. I think it is a relatively good practice aid but not useful for a concert situation. Rs2700 is a little steep I think.

Surely one of the IT geeks reading this thread could write a little tala program (or online tool) that is specifically geared for Carnatic talas.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Apr 2006, 12:37

$2700 ? Really. That is pretty steep.

param · Post by **param** » 26 Apr 2006, 17:53

Instead of going in for all these mechanized goods, try to concentrate - pray to Almighty to help you - and soon you will be doing great with your hands itself. These mechanized items will only make you weaker by the day. These are useful for a laya vinyasam or a thani avarthanam performance where you have only the percussionists playing - though, I would prefer to have a human being rendering the talam.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 26 Apr 2006, 18:20

Try this one for PocketPC, I am using it. I find it very simple and easy to use. Only thing that you cant do with this is sankeerna nadai.

you can download the same from http://www.seguemd.com/pockettune/
(Freeware)

Thanks - that program works well on my Dell Axim!

Param - I agree that it is better to have a person putting talam but sometimes if the person who is practicing begins to speed up, there is a natural tendency for the person putting talam to also speed up and adjust to the tempo set by the artist. The electronic gadget forces the artist to stick to the original tempo.

Instrumentalists should ideally practice by putting talam while singing the composition or kalpana swaram.

param · Post by **param** » 27 Apr 2006, 09:58

The only problem you will have in future is that you will never be comfortable with a human talam but would always want a mechanized talam. To speed up or to slow down is merely a human trait. If the talam is used for any interesting the talam speeds up and if it is of less interest, the talam slows down. Just like when you find a cricket match interesting you stay wide awake and keep cheering but when no runs are scored, no wickets fall, etc., you tend to either change the channel or put the TV off and do something else.

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 13 Aug 2006, 02:01

param wrote:The only problem you will have in future is that you will never be comfortable with a human talam but would always want a mechanized talam. To speed up or to slow down is merely a human trait. If the talam is used for any interesting the talam speeds up and if it is of less interest, the talam slows down. Just like when you find a cricket match interesting you stay wide awake and keep cheering but when no runs are scored, no wickets fall, etc., you tend to either change the channel or put the TV off and do something else.

Yes, but I as a beginner mridangam student do not have the facility of someone else putting talam for me everytime I practise. How do I practice theermanams? How do I practise chatusra gati to tisra gati changeover and know that my speed change was correct? If it is all in my mind then my mind will stretch to accomodate anything.

I agree that a mechanized talam is not the best option but for a student the alternatives tend to be worse.

What I would like is a program that produces a different beep on different beats of the tala avarthanam so that I know where in the avarthanam I am. Has someone written such a program and if so would they be willing to share it? Hopefully I should be able to modify it to play different talams and speeds (if the program does not do that already). And hopefully runs on Windows Xp and not just PocketPC or handhelds. Such a program would help me immensely I think.

Thanks
Thenpaanan

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 13 Aug 2006, 02:15

And perhaps a software to play the mRdanga as well?
Seriously, learning music is not a child,s play and need some mental effort and dedication. If you wnat everything on a platter, like different beeps for each beat etc, where is you effort?

vigneshbal · Post by **vigneshbal** » 16 Aug 2006, 02:33

I have been learning mridangam for the past 9 years and also perform. i dont understand when some body says how do i calculate the talam for tisra gathi. from what evr i have understood, it is that the talam is same, it is a continous running cycle, similar to the Kala Chakra/ time cycle, infact both of them can be one-to-one co-related. so talam for kanda gathi does not change., Don not expect any mechanical instrument to change the tala pattern as humans do, it is for u to calculate/practice/adjust the speed in such a way that you would be able to fit in 5/7/9 aksharas with in the single beat which is shown available here. Once again thank all the softwares mentioned above, will try using it for my improvement,,, presently i am using my legs for the talam, which is not that easy... God only knows how all masters of this instrument did this with that ease...

baz1908 · Post by **baz1908** » 16 Aug 2006, 03:56

I have used a tala meter a long time ago, from what i can remember, you may be able to split each beat into 2 rings of the tala meter, for example with kanda nadai - Thaka Thakida. This essentially turns into putting Kanda Chapu thalam 8 times for Kanda Nadai in Athi Thalam.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Aug 2006, 20:38

vigneshbal wrote:it is for u to calculate/practice/adjust the speed in such a way that you would be able to fit in 5/7/9 aksharas with in the single beat

I am trying to reconcile the info from the Hari Shankar thread on the duration of a nadai count... Based on what you state above, does it imply then that the avarthanam duration of a thala does not change when you switch nadai from one avarthanam to another? In the discussion at the Hari Shankar thread, we are going by the data that the duration of the sub-beat does not change when you switch nadai which implies that the duration of the outer beat changes and hence the duration of the whole avarthanam changes when you switch nadais.

So what is invariant across a nadai-switch? the sub-beat duration or the outer beat duration? Thanks.

gsn · Post by **gsn** » 16 Aug 2006, 21:25

VK-

I think what vigneshbal means is the following :

Let us stay in Chatusra nadai - so that we have 4 subdivisions to a beat. Now, changing to tisram while maintaining the original avarthanam duration implies subdividing the original beat into 3 (or 6, if second kalam). Assuming that the "time separation" between consecutive subdivisions in chatusra nadai is 1 unit, this implies a changed "time separation" between consecutive subdivisions during tisram to either 4/3 (1st kalam tisram) or 4/6 (2nd kalam tisram). The thala duration does not change; only the number of subdivisions fitted into one beat changes. A good way to practise this is to recite Takadhimi (or even 1234) for chatusra nadai Adi talam, and say at the halfway point, recite 123456 (for 2nd kalam tisram) in the same beat duration as before.

The changing of nadais will,as you have written, keep the time of a subdivision the same but change the total duration of an avarthanam. So for instance, Adi khanda nadai (5 to a beat) will take 1.25 times more time than Adi Chatusra nadai for an avarthanam.

Given a song / pallavi and its inherent nadai - nadai switches usually correspond to keeping the outer beat duration (in your lingo) the same while changing the subdivision duration appropriately.

As a further point (sorry if it is trivial), consider a line like SRGMPDNS'S'NDPMGRS (each swaram has duration 1 unit).
Singing this in madhyama kala chatusra nadai Adi (4 to a beat) gives, for an avarthanam :

SRGM | PDNS' | S'NDP | MGRS || SRGM | PDNS' | S'NDP | MGRS || (end of one avarthanam)

We have sung 2 sets of the line here in one avrtahanam.

In tisra conversion (1 st kalam) this yields
SRG | MPD | NS'S' | NDP || MGR | SSR | GMP | DNS'|| (one avarthanam)
S'ND | PMG | RSS | RGM|| PDN | S'S'N | DPM | GRS || (2nd avarthanam)

here, as you see, we complete 3 sets in 2 avarthanams. Doing this in 2nd kalam tisram would yield 3 sets in one avarthanam. This is the basis of the nadai switch within an inherent nadai.

Sorry if you are more confused than before after reading this!

Girish

baz1908 · Post by **baz1908** » 16 Aug 2006, 21:25

In my opinion, the duration of the beat stays constant whereas the sub-beat (or mathra) would change duration.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Aug 2006, 21:34

> Based on what you state above, does it imply then that the avarthanam duration of a thala does not change when you
> switch nadai from one avarthanam to another
(i believe) That is correct vk. In other words, the inter-beat or inter-akshara duration stays the same. But when you change nadais you are fitting different mathrais (sub-beats) within that akshara and hence the inter-mathrai (or sub-beat) duration changes. They get expanded out (e.g. in thriSra) or compacted (e.g. in khanDa) when compared to catuSra. This becomes very evident particularly for thiSra in dance jatis (where more "players" are doing the switch rather than just say mridangist).

This is also why you hear people say that the gati sort of needs to be discerned internally rather us being over-conscious of it when putting tala. I am able to discern it in sometimes and I dont get it other times when listening to a song (and may be the mridangam is a big aid without me being aware of it). For example, for kritis in adi-tala tiSra gati, when listening to it, for some I can easily put tala like normal adi tala with the correct spacing without being even that aware that it is triSra. But in other songs (e.g even Sankari Sankuru), i can do it only in explicit triSra i.e. each beat of Adi like you do the triSra part in miSra cApu. In fact for me the latter is more common (:-)

Arun

Ashwin · Post by **Ashwin** » 16 Aug 2006, 22:01

As I understand it, the definition of a change in naDai is that the time duration of a mAtrA changes so as to maintain the time duration of the akSharam, hence the Avarttanam. E.g. in pallavi rendition, the pallavi sAhityA will be rendered at the following ratios: 1/2, 2/2, 3/2, 4/2. Here, the numerator corresponds to the total number of times the pallavi sAhitya is sung, and the denominator is the total number of Avarttanams taken to render each speed. The 3/2 ratio corresponds to tiSra naDai; that is, the rate at which the pallavi must be sung in order that three instances of the sAhityA fit exactly into two Avarttanams (the time duration of an Avarttanam being constant for all naDais, by definition). Of course, artists will often disrupt the pattern with ratios like 2/3 (caturaSra tiSram). Although I haven't thought it out, it seems that the appropriate selection of ratio for each tALam (multiplied by suitable integers for number of repetitions) could be used to solve the HariShankar conundrum.

Ashwin

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 20 Aug 2006, 00:16

A simpleton's simple explanation...

Listen to a clock tick. For each tick count 4 ie "Tick two three four Tick two three four"

Now change it to three: "Tick two three tick two three"

or six: "Tick two three four five six tick..."

With each 'tick', of course, you will be saying 'one' as the clock says 'tick'

You have now practiced changing between chutusra and tisra nadai.

You cannot change the duration of the clock tick: that is analagous to each beat (akshara) of the talam, the duration of which does not change.

I've just said the same thing again, with a different demonstration.

thenpaanan: I sympathise. I have just about given up ever having that inbuilt laya clock that professional musicians, especially mridangists, have.

Without it one misses so much, even as audience. A student of Trichy Sancharan told me how many nadais the great man had played one composition in during his thani: most of them were lost on me.

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 20 Aug 2006, 06:58

Nick,

Thanks for the kind words and thanks much for the tisra nadai trick as well.

I have trouble keeping track of long avarthanams of unusual talas. Adi talam with two kalai chowkam is manageable but I am absolutely lost in say a Jhampai or I frequently miss the second laghu in Ata talam and the list goes on.

I feel I am kind of stuck between two ends. On the one hand I hear this frequently from the vidwans around me that I should "practise, practise, practise" and everything will come of its own. But I am starting to learn a new instrument at the ripe young age of 40! Surely some ways of practice are better than others.

On the other hand, people who have somehow already attained their mastery over the instrument always tell me not to use technology as a means to cover my flaws. But why not? What else is technology for? I understand technology can become a crutch as you point out in a previous post in this threat but that is not reason enough to abolish technology altogether either! After all, lots and lots of vocalists use electronic tamburas these days -- I am sure some people bemoan the fact that the new generations of vocalists do not know how to tune a tambura. Does it necessarily mean that they cannot keep sruti-shuddham?

I remember a concert of a well-known mridangist who played a perfect korvai (to my ears) but it was a complex one and the vocalist could not keep the talam perfectly with the result that the mridangist seemingly missed the eduppu. The mridangist's face visibly darkened in anger. What hope do I have in expecting that someone keep good talam for me?

For some similar reasons, I cannot get into any conversation about the physical attributes of the mridangam either. I have great trouble tuning the instrument and have asked people around why tune this way and why not that and the only net result is I have not learned to tune.

These philosophical problems aside, I found that I have genuine technical problems with my playing. I tend to drag on some stroke patterns (especially those that involve my left hand -- I am a righty) and speed up on others to keep within the overall talam. Finding that mental clock to straighten this out in a fast talam like misra chapu has been very challenging. That is another reason for me to look for a fine-grained metronome.

Well, I have rambled enough. I hope that the people in this bboard dont think that I am taking my music lightly.

Thanks again for your sympathy,
thenpaanan

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 20 Aug 2006, 08:54

I should "practise, practise, practise"

Reminds me of the bit I read in Readers Digest Long Long ago.

A Music enthusiast ,was late for a concert, and had lost her way , while walking to the Royal Albert Hall .
And she thought that the blind old man playing the violin on the street side would be the best person to guide her quickly.
She asks ..
Sir, which is the surest and quickest way to Royal Albert Hall , please ?

After a moments thought , he replies:
Practice ..My Dear Lady ..Practice.that is the surest way .

vigneshbal · Post by **vigneshbal** » 20 Aug 2006, 23:44

hi,as one of the meber baz 1908 has said is absolutely correct, my earlier post means that the time for a beat/cycle is the same. that is the pace of the song has to be kept a constant till the thirmanam is over EXCEPT IN CASE OF PALLAVI'S WHERE THIS NEED NOT BE THE CASE. In 8kallai pallavi's or 4 kalai Pallavis the speed is doubled or quatrapled to avoid any boredom during singing of neravals, which is an accepted practice. but otherwise the speed for a keerthanai is same till the end. if u are changing the nadai what it means is, u r changing the pace of your playing in order to fit in the nadai, for example in chatusra nadai, for a beat u play T K D M, where 4 aksharas are fit into a beat, where as in kanda Nadai you play T K T K T, which means that your speed is raised by 1.25 times and NOT THE SPEED OF THE TALAM. the concept of putting kanda chapu talam 8 times and calling it as kanda nadai is highly unacceptable, although it is in practise by many vidwans, i dont think it is correct, it is just kanda chapu... this concept of splitting the kanda nadai into kanda chapu--8 avartanams is some thing which has evolved from NADHASWARAM Vidwans who for the sake of ease use this, as usually tavil vidwans play a lot of VAKRA KANAKKU, some thing which to the best of my knowledge is not there in mridangam.... Thanx, Vignesh

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Aug 2006, 23:56

the concept of putting kanda chapu talam 8 times and calling it as kanda nadai is highly unacceptable, although it is in practise by many vidwans, i dont think it is correct,

I can see this being wrong if you have to switch naDais within a song. But if an entire song is to be in khaNDa naDai Adi tala, why is it wrong? There is no rule that if you sing one song in catSra naDai Adi with 1 akshara spacing of say 1 second, and then you follow the next song in khanDA naDai Adi, your akshara spacing must be 1.25s apart. You are allowed to set the tempo for a song as you please. So while the technique may seem say rather rudimentary and even contrived to people with advanced laya sense, it is pretty effective IMHO.

Arun

baz1908 · Post by **baz1908** » 21 Aug 2006, 00:17

vigneshbal wrote:VAKRA KANAKKU

Please explain.

Thanks

Barathan

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Aug 2006, 00:17

arunk wrote:
the concept of putting kanda chapu talam 8 times and calling it as kanda nadai is highly unacceptable, although it is in practise by many vidwans, i dont think it is correct,
I can see this being wrong if you have to switch naDais within a song. But if an entire song is to be in khaNDa naDai Adi tala, why is it wrong? There is no rule that if you sing one song in catSra naDai Adi with 1 akshara spacing of say 1 second, and then you follow the next song in khanDA naDai Adi, your akshara spacing must be 1.25s apart. You are allowed to set the tempo for a song as you please. So while the technique may seem say rather rudimentary and even contrived to people with advanced laya sense, it is pretty effective IMHO.

Arun

Did you mean to say 'mAthrA' spacing? ( I am trying to get squared away on terminology ).

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 21 Aug 2006, 02:05

vk,

no I meant akshara spacing only although I see now that i didnt convey what I meant at all - i ended saying something which i think is opposite of what i meant! Let me first clear that up and that may clear up any unintentional misdirection on my part and perhaps your question. Sorry.

What I meant was there is no rule that the akshara spacing of a song in khaNDa naDai Adi must be the same as that of a catusra naDai song even if they follow each other in a concert. There need be no relation between the akshara spacings (and thus mathrai spacing) of two separate songs. You could have same mathrai spacing (and hence different akshara spacing), or different mathrai spacing such that ashara spacings are same, or both be different - whatever.

This may again perhaps seem obvious, but my point is for a song in khaNDa naDai as long as you are fitting 5 (or its multiple although) mathrais within an akshara during that song, you are good to go. Hence putting each akshara of the tala in khaNDa cApu to get khaNDa naDai seemed fine to me. But, I am willing to be corrected if this is wrong.

Now of course within a song, if you are switching naDais we saw that the akshara spacing must remain the same, and hence mathrai spacing would be different. Here, i can believe that when you switch from catuSra naDai to khaNDa naDai, and try to put khaNDa naDai using cApu, you will probably go awry and would probably end up putting khaNDa naDai such that the akshara spacing is 1.25 times that of catuSra. Why? For most (like me), we may be locked on to the internal beat of the catusra naDai "too much", and thus "retain" the mathrai spacing across naDais. So in catusra if we were fitting 4 mathrais (1 akshara) in 1second, we will still do 4 mathrais in 1second in khaNDa naDai i.e. 5 mathrais (1 akshara) in 1.25s - ending up expanding the akshara spacing which would be a mistake. So it would seem harder to switch naDais within a song and you have to rely on the internal sense.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Aug 2006, 05:25

OK, this should settle things. Here is a demo by DRS showing clearly the difference between the illusion of nadai difference and the real one.

Click here to download naDechange-illusionandreality-ShrikaanthK[1][1].Murthy.wma

baz1908 · Post by **baz1908** » 21 Aug 2006, 08:47

I doubt this will settle things

In the first part, DRS has said his demo is an illusion of nadai change but this is standarad practice.

In the second part it seems as though you are switching thalams and not nadais.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Aug 2006, 09:57

Let me try to address this. I am sure DRS will correct me if needed.

What he calls as an illusion is what is typically done in the kalpanaswarams and in the thani. Why it is an illusion is based on the meaning of 'change'. The main beat interval ( akshara kAlam ) does not change. So, things did not really change, hence it is an illusion.

In the second part it seems as though you are switching thalams and not nadais.

What drove home the point for me is, the "real" nadai change is indeed a change in thalam since nadai/gathi is not just a 'describing' property of a thalam, it is a 'defining' property. There are indeed 35*5=175 thalams in the 'suladi saptha' system. You change the nadai, you change the thalam. The akshara kAlam changes, so it is real.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Aug 2006, 14:26

Here is a sample from an MLV clip. ( (Thanks to DRS for providing the example for this illustration)

Click here to download candraCUDa Nadai Change.mp3

This sample shows a change from Khanda Nadai to Chathusra Nadai. There are two things to notice here. The two avarthanams in Kanda Nadai are longer than the subsequent two avarthanams of chathusra nadai. Also, few beats before the transition, one can clearly hear the 'ta ka ta ki ta ta ka ta ki ta' from the mridangamist and does not change the strokes at the mAthrA level and smoothly transitions over to chathusram.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 21 Aug 2006, 20:28

vk,

This is not what we have been discussing although it is of course a very good example of switch in naDais. This one IMO is an explicit change in tempo - the mathrais spacing is same, and thus avarthanam is shortened, and hence a faster cycle of tala (and why i call an explicit change in tempo). I am not sure but I think this is less common (?).

BTW, you can see/feel the change in tempo clearly if you just pay attention to start of each thaka-thakita in khaNDa naDai and each thaka-dhimi in catuSra naDai, and just put one beat for each such set (like say counting with your fingers). You can then see that would have to "beat"/"count" faster when MLV goes into catuSra naDai. But if you are just paying attention to the "speed" of how she is rendering, a tempo/speed change may be harder to discern.

(i want to note here that change in tempo as "perceived" by us can happen in many other situations - even in the other kind of switch as explained below.)

In the other kind of switch we talked about, the mathrai spacing changes. The clearest examples for me is in dance jathis particularly in their pada varNams, where a triSra naDai invariably figures and it gives an feeling of a "slowing" of tempo. I sense the jati as "more drawn out" (I will try to dig up a sample - Maybe rshankar has something more easily shareable?).

Another clear example of such switch in naDai's is in the khamAs swarajathi sAmbashivAyanavE - where it goes from catusra nadai to khaNDa naDai. You are supposed to keep the inter-akshara spacinng the same there. Any one got a sample that they can post?

I want to note that in thid kind, the switch is not an illusion and is very real - in dance, the naTTuvAngam, mridangist AND the dancer all go in triSra naDai (which is why it is fairly easy to spot).

On the other hand, you have renditions where the singer say sing the same line the same way, but the mridangist changes gati. Yesterday i was at a performance where the mridangist went into misra gati - that also gives a perception of a fastening of tempo even though the tala-cyle duration is the same. You also have renditions where the count of say 32 in catuSra Adi is divided up as say 7+7+7+5+6 - e.g. in dance where the dancer and mridangist will go accordingly (but not the singer). This is taking the same catusra gati, but employinig varying beats to get at the 32 beat count. This is sort of similar to the previous example, although it is no longer just the mridangist.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Aug 2006, 22:57

This is not what we have been discussing

Arun, I do not know which 'discussion' you have in mind since there are a few ideas floating around in this thread. In any case, you have pretty much covered all the bases, terminology and characterization differences notwithstanding. Till now, the idea of a real nadai change in a composition was not brought about and the MLV clip shows that. This is the first for me as well.

The other kind, the illusion kind, is aplenty. Btw, 'illusion' is not meant as 'purely perceptory by the audience', the artists are changing the mAthra kAla, keeping constant the akshara kala. This kind of change is no different from a general speed change like halving or doubling. It is just that it is in an odd ratio, that is all.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Aug 2006, 00:21

vk,

agreed - i thought we were discussing on naDai changes where akshara spacing remains same and hence different mathrais. I think the typical nadai change within the song is more of that kind and not the kind that is in the MLV sample(i could be wrong though). Atleast when I think of naDai change, i do not think of speeding the tala cycle accordingly. If you do that in tani or in dance, that i think would be considered quite bad. So I was just pointing that out that this sample may not be representative of a typical naDai change as what mridangists do.

>This kind of change is no different from a general speed change like halving or doubling.
Mathematically yes. But musically - not.

> It is just that it is in an odd ratio, that is all
well if you go that way, so would what MLV does (;-). Any speed change can be expressed as a ratio of the original speed.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Aug 2006, 00:51

arunk wrote:>This kind of change is no different from a general speed change like halving or doubling.
Mathematically yes. But musically - not.

> It is just that it is in an odd ratio, that is all
well if you go that way, so would what MLV does (;-). Any speed change can be expressed as a ratio of the original speed.

Arun

Arun, see if you can explain the musical difference given the following view point. kAlam change and this 'illusion' gathi change are all part of the same spectrum whereas what MLV does is not... I agree when you switch from one mathra count to another it "feels" different. It definitely does. May be that is what you mean by musical difference. But that difference is no different from halving or doubling. So, in a pallavi, whether they change kAlam or change to these odd numbered mAthrai count, they are doing the same 'kind' of thing.

1 mathrai per aksharam - very slow kalam chathusra gathi
2 mathrai per aksharam - slow kalam chathusra gathi
3 mathrai per aksharam - normal kalam thisra gathi
4 mathrai per aksharam - normal kalam chathusra gathi
5 mathrai per aksharam - normal kalam kanda gathi
6 mathrai per aksharam - double kalam thisra gathi
7 mathrai per aksharam - normal kalam misra gathi
8 mathrai per aksharam - double kalam chathusra gathi
9 mathrai per aksharam - normal kalam sankeerna gathi
10 mathrai per aksharam - double kalam kanda gathi
11 mathrai per aksharam - ???
12 mathrai per aksharam - triple kalam thisra gathi
13 mathrai per aksharam - ???
14 mathrai per aksharam - double kalam misra gathi
15 mathrai per aksharam - ???
16 mathrai per aksharam - triple kalam chathusra gathi
17 mathrai per aksharam - ???
18 mathrai per aksharam - double kalam sankeerna gathi
19 mathrai per aksharam - ???
20 mathrai per aksharam - triple kalam kanda gathi
( many are just theoretical but just filling it up till 20 mathras per aksharam for illustration purposes).

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Aug 2006, 01:50

I look up in awe at you wizards as you drum up a discussion on beats--on the Harishankar thread too. My understanding of it all is almost nil. I read them, however much above my head the calculations, ratios and frequencies are. I have to say this though. The student persists in getting his 'doubts' cleared. The others try their best in explaining things. You all seem to have a lot of patience--which gives me hope. I wouldn't be turned away by a guru if I ever sought laya lessons at kindergarten level! Ah, hope!
Yes, it reminds me of the continuing story of Peyton Place, repeats of it and...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Aug 2006, 02:33

vk,

yes it is similar and one can indeed argue that it is no different. However, my reasons for saying it is different is based on why 2 and 8 is not considered a separate gati from catuSra gati, and why 6 is not considered a separate gati from triSra/tiSra (or even why sankIrNa is not considered a super-set of tiSra).

Now i dont know why this is so, but it seems to ingrained in most of us, that halving and doubling is somehow "more natural" in the realm of music, and the set of 3, set of 5, set of 7 are all considered separate "entities" from set of 4 (i would rather say 2), where each set includes double, quadruple etc. This is not just in cm, it is even in wm. You drop that distinction and deem it "artificial", then yes they are no different but just in one set as you outline. In cm, then you take your reasoning to the extreme and label that there is no need for different gatis. But as you say set of 3 "feels" different from set of 4 or 5 etc. and to me 3 vs 4 feels very different from 4 vs 8. It may be worthwhile to find out why halving/doubling is perceived differently from the other cases. That difference is what i am implying "musically different" but i am sorry that i am unable to explain it in any more detail (although i have pondered on this time to time) besides the following:

I like to imagine gati by its literal meaning "gati" as in gait and i consider horses with their different gaits - walk, trot, canter etc. Now the different gaits of a horse all look visually different to us and also sound different (as in the sound of the hooves). Now for each gati imagine/assign a different gait of the horse. Let us say we arbitrarily assign 3 to walk, 4 to trot, 5 to canter and 7 to gallop. To me if 3 is walk, 6 is a faster walk (at twice the speed), 4 is trot and 8 is a faster trot at double-speed; but the 3 (and 6) is quite different from 4 (and 8) just like how a trot is different from a walk. Similarly the canter (5) is very different from a walk and trot, and a gallop(7) is different from all others.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Aug 2006, 02:38

hi arasi,

thanks but i dont deserve that compliment! I am quite a layman w.r.t laya - its just the mathematically inclined portion of my mind is drawn to subjects like this. So i usually end up attacking it from a pure math/science perspective. I do have a teeny-weeny bit practical knowledge, and kELvi gnyAnam but they dont (yet) add up to something that can be 100% reliable. I also view forums like this as an opportunity for friends to learn from each other. I learnt a lot on sangeetham.com, and have learnt a lot here too.

Thanks
Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Aug 2006, 03:12

Arun: That was a good visual description. I also psychologically feel that doubling or halving has a different feel than the 3, 5 or 7 grouping.

Getting back to the main point, the MLV sample does not fit into this sequence. That was the point I was making. Also, tying this back to the prime number calculations in the Harishankar thread ( http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=953-Kanjira-Harishankar.html ), when we explored if Nadai can be brought into solving the puzzle, we were talking about the "real" nadai change ( which causes changes to the akshara kAlam ).

Here is a thread from the dance section: http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=712&p=1

Since you have interest in dance jatis, can you listen to that panchanadai section of the thillana and the discussion that ensued and see what category that change fits in.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Aug 2006, 04:20

vk,

I looked at the sample:I am not that good at this either (my knowledge in dance also is very much arai-korai (;-)), but if i am not mistaken, the panca-naDai part of the thillana case is actually closer to the MLV sample than the other kind. This of course is because mathrai spacing remains the same. But a very important difference is that the naDais are mixed to get a mathrai count that is synced up to the original tALa (although not necessarily within the same avartana). So you may start from samam of Adi-tAla catuSra gaTi, do 7+7+7+3+8 and still hit samam. This is probably a very contrived example as typical stuff is more elaborate and would span more avarthanas, may not take off on samam and may end after samam depending on song etc. etc. The singer here will put tALA exactly as before (unlike with MLV's sample), the "main clock" of the song stays at the same resolution. Since this example does NOT involve change in cycle duration, I consider it to be quite different from that in MLV's sample. It is also more common to mix things up between the various naDais rather than employ one particular naDai - that adds the necessary color that the mridangist (or dance choreographer) is looking for. Because of all this, i think this is hard for us to spot all the various intricacies, and i think most of us perceive it like "nothing really changed". So from that point isnt it odd that one may think that this kind is more illusary(sp?) (;-).

I should retract my earlier statement and state that this sort of naDai usage is the most common in cm - rather than the MLV kind or the kind where mathrai spacing changes. And i hope you see the difference between the above and the MLV case. Note that even in the kind of switch where mathrai spacing changes, the switch is rarely permanent and eventually will involve some kind of stuff like the above to dove-tail back to the main tALA. I think it may also add mixture of naDais on top so that total mathrai count syncs up to the new-gati - although i am not sure how common. But in any case, all the while, the singer can continue putting tala the same way the whole time, which is still possible as akshara spacing remains the same.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Aug 2006, 08:46

vk,

here is an example of a switch to tiSra naDai in a dance jati. The sample is a a very small part of a commercial recording of the varnam "sakhiye" composed by the dance guru K.N. Dandayudapani Pillai. It is sung by MLV of course and I believe Sri. Dandayudapani Pillai himself is the one doing the nattuvangam. The jati is quite catchy - "cool" and "funky" are words that occur to me but they are perhaps inapppropriate (:-).

I will leave it as an exercise for you to "sense it" (:-). Just be forewarned that the jati has very attractive usage of catuSra gati itself which may seem to people (myself included initially) as some switch happening. So watch out for that.

Click here to download nadai_change.m4a

(ps: i hope you can play this file, i am going this on my mac where i am still sort of learning things and cant make the darn thing save in mp3, it has saved in AAC which of course is better).

Let me know what you think.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Aug 2006, 08:50

btw there is a glitch in the song (my import procedure) which sort of messes up keeping the tala. Sorry - still doesnt affect the "demo".

Arun