Artisites and Decorum

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 16 Mar 2008, 10:08

There was a wonderful concert of a renowned Very Senior Artiste ( Not BM) in my hometown recently.A very well respected person in the Carnatic Circle with a steady career of more than 25 years. this si was the fist opportunity for me to listen to his live concert.

The artiste concluded saying that he was indeed happy to sing in that hall in particular and probably he is god send to immerse people in divinity.

Incidentally the Organiser happens to be my friend and we did arrange for their stay ( obviously this place is fvery far from chennai )

After having immersed us in divinity they immersed themselves into a different state. The whole team of course. The next morning we only heard from the Hoteliers " enna sir onga alunga rathiri thanni aathula medhanghaanga , karakki vandhuttaangaa poi parunga.

With hangover they managed to check out only in the afternoon. ( actually supposed to leave in the mornign).

I am not gereralising all the musicians but few flawed personalities actually would only belittle the image of the the carnatic artistes as a whole , in the public.

There are ofcourse many artistes known for their sterling charecters and squeaky clean life style.

But at the same time there exisits quite a few artistes for whom a concert out of their town iis like flood gate opened.

I only sincerely wish these people disist from such incongruous life, a divine concert and inebriate themselves in the night which is very unbecoming of their stature and for the carnatic music.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Mar 2008, 11:19

I can actually understand 'enna sir,' but I'm lost for the rest of that sentence. Do give the translation!

I think this is a very complex subject. Although I have not consumed any (one sip at a wedding) for a couple of years, I have nothing against alcohol, although I wish people would recognise its health risks, so I will not moralise about people consuming it, unless they are hypocritical about it at other times.

Embarrassing behaviour, though, is embarrassing behaviour, alcohol or no. I can be embarrassing without it!

I've encountered a naivete about the stuff in several musicians; "it's only fruit juice, we don't touch anything like whisky," they proclaim, knocking back wine and seemingly oblivious to the fact they are getting drunker by the minute. There were some senior people involved in one such scene. Their behaviour was more childlike than bad.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 16 Mar 2008, 11:49

Translation here for Nick:

Hello SIr, Your people were floating in the river water ( alcohol) the whole night. Go see for yourself if they have come to the river bank . ( come out of the hang over)

The next time I would cringe if I have to go ask for rooms for the artistes.

Rather I woudl book someother hotel .

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Mar 2008, 12:25

Thank you for that.

(Yes, my wife is a Tamil speaker, but always out of the house on Sundays, else I wouldn't have troubled you).

I do feel that it is the resultant behaviour that matters. If they were just quietly consuming, then so be it --- unless, of course, you had to pay the bill!!!!

My imagination is stretching to carnatic musicians trashing hotel rooms, throwing TVs out of the window, etc, in the style of rock bands of the 1970s

Thankfully, it is quite a stretch!

money · Post by **money** » 16 Mar 2008, 14:10

Why pick on artistes and musicians? They are as much human as those in every other field .
Disgusting behaviour from any set of persons is as reprehensible.
One will be embarrassed to book rooms for such persons from any walk of life.Proper decorum,etiquette and decency is expected from any public person.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 16 Mar 2008, 21:11

Yes , from any person it is expected. And even more when they throw tantrums claiming themselves to be the guardians of the divine musical form . i. e. carantic.

Nobody woudl compalin if a ghazal singer or cine singer or western musicians go tipsy.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 16 Mar 2008, 22:32

There is no excuse for drinking alcohol irrespective of what profession, career or belief one follows. One becomes what he thinks about, eats about, hears about, looks about and hears about. Let us not isolate those who claim to be guardians of divine musical form only.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 16 Mar 2008, 22:51

There is no such thing as a moral book or an immoral book.
Books are well written or badly written. That is all
The Picture of Dorian Gray -Oscar Wilde
Life is like a Cow Pasture.
You walk through it with your head down ,to avoid the crap.
And end up never finding the gate.
Anon
Ganesh Murthy
That Hotel Chap who told you stories about the night was not a good chap.
Take it from me.
There is absolutely nothing wrong in the artist drinking all night , having a hangover and checking out in the afternoon instead of the morning.
AFTER GETTING YOU CLOSE TO DIVINITY THE PREVIOUS EVENING.

Everything else you feel about Guardianship of CM is just crap.
You would be a decent man if you understand what has happened , or will happen the next time you arrange a concert.
I recommend a reading of SL Bhairappa's Vamshavriksha in Kannada- or a translation of it in English, if available.
Human behaviour is much more complex than what you , with your milk teeth, make it out to be.

And in my short tenure as organiser , I have seen rich artists making issues over a couple of hundreds of rupees and some very simple minded accompanists offering to return the excess amount from the sum offered for transport saying - It cost me only 65 Bucks from where I started from - I will not need the extra 235 Bucks you are giving me.
Ah ! Kalpagam Mamis Concert was all the more sweeter for such experiences.
Now what was the simple minded Mridangam Vidwans name ?
I will recollect it for another day .
Angels.All of them.Angels.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 16 Mar 2008, 23:17

CM is patronized by a society that considers the consumption of alchohol as a vice. More so if the artists (their demigods) indulge in such habits.

onga alunga rathiri thanni aathula medhanghaanga

This actually means "Your men were floating in a river of alcohol in the night".

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 17 Mar 2008, 02:50

I use neither alcohal nor cigarettes and therefore, if I were an artist, I would not be having this problem, whether I am performing in Chennai or elsewhere. But looking at the situation at a wholistic level.....

what I do in the privacy of my house ( hotel room, in this particular case, as that is my assigned domicile and hence my house) is none of any body's business. No one has the right to pass any moral judgement on my activities or behaviour. Did I perform in the concert to the satisfaction of the public ? Did I misbehave at the concert ? Was I drunk ( like some famous artists of yesteryears, who are considered demi gods by connosseurs of this music) at the time I was on the concert stage? Am I constantly in a inebriated state through out the day? While in the hotel room, did I cause any social disturbance?

If the answers to the above questions are NO, then we need to ask ourselves...." what right we have to be the moral police" ?

My two cents....

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 Mar 2008, 04:42

Another 'not so' merry go round topic on the forum which crops up time and again.
Cool,
You are right. The same Oscar Wilde says 'details are ugly', somewhere.
Sam, you said it well too. It is none of our business to act as moral police about the behavior of artistes away from the concert hall. While we appreciate performers who behave in a dignified manner, we do not have the right to condemn their behvior when they have left the stage as performers and have gone back to their private lives.
If the rasika walks out of the hall feeling divinity after listening to a particular concert, great. But let us not mistake the artiste for a representative of Divinity. He does not think of himself as one, any way.
While stories like these are not pleasant to hear--and I presume the informer dramatized the episode as well (ellArum or Silar? a few or all of them?). Had a drink or drowned in it? Over slept because of fatigue or inebriation?
If it were a religious leader who preaches against drinking and other 'vices' who behaved this way, I can see the point in agonizing over this.
Religious beliefs and the way CM has been closely connected with religion somehow makes some of us take offense as if Divinity itself has been insulted when such incidents are reported.
There is a romantic notion in our society among some ( among artistes and hotel staff too?) about drinking. And Devadas was released eons ago!
A good concert is an enjoyable thing. You are free to savor it as an aesthetic or spiritual experience--or just as a mode of entertainment...

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 17 Mar 2008, 05:56

"If the answers to the above questions are NO, then we need to ask ourselves...." what right we have to be the moral police" ? "
Yes . I totally agree with shri Sam Swaminathan. Artistes also are human being. It is there personal weakness. Let us no discuss it. IMHO this thread is in similar lines with Good looking Carnatic Musicians wherein we go too personal . BTW I know the behaviour of few artistes when they visit abroad and the host's plight .

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 18 Mar 2008, 08:08

http://rapidshare.com/files/100369428/h ... m.mp3.html

This one is for CML and likeminded teetotallers who have managed to retain their sense of humor.
A short beauty clipped from a popular kannada program.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 18 Mar 2008, 08:23

Cool,
Obviously the singer had no hangover, the way he sang it--clear as a bell!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 18 Mar 2008, 09:01

cool

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Mar 2008, 09:42

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 18 Mar 2008, 10:56

Fortunately or Unfortunately,i have not tasted the sarakku,supposedly seeing things doubly and indulging in karnakadoora music(lalitha says whether inebriated or not, my normal singing in the bathroom is not much better), the holy cow I am, my only attempt at vice was a couple of thiruttu dhums(puffing cigarettes secretly, fearing detection by elders), while at college. another dose of humour injection gobilalitha

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 18 Mar 2008, 12:44

by elders, I meant (late)sri P.mahadevan, formerly, principal , Madura college,Madurai,)an authority on English literature, like sri Saranathan((Shakespearan authority, St. Joseph's college ,Trichy),I think gobilalitha

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Mar 2008, 13:48

my only attempt at vice ... ...

It's over-rated.

But I suppose I didn't think so in my youth

money · Post by **money** » 18 Mar 2008, 14:43

Ganesh Murthy has not mentioned if the organisers had to pay for the 'Teertha Yatrai" of the musicians.The organisers should not have any cause for worry if they did not pick up the tab.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 18 Mar 2008, 21:28

yeah, the organisers would foot the bill mostly. threy did. it was was like room rent and miscellaneous

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 18 Mar 2008, 22:16

The charge covers their dirty laundry being washed in public too, I suppose!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Mar 2008, 23:40

Very good, Arasi; very sharp

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 19 Mar 2008, 10:37

Heh Heh!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Mar 2008, 11:45

Good one Arasi.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 19 Mar 2008, 12:08

I fully agree with Sam that private life of anyone should not be impinged or commented by others - Remember the words of Prophet Mohammed - "let the one who has not sinned cast the first stone" (against the adulteress who was being hounded by a mob).

Unlike other professions, musicians always perform before an audience - viewers. When I was in Delhi a Bhagavatar came from Andhra to perform katha Kalakshepam. I attended the complete series. I was so impressed by the bhAva of the person that I actually prostrated before him.

Aruna Sayeeram had made a pertinent remark in one of her interviews - "when we sing, we must remember that those great personalities are singing through our medium".

When I prostrated before the bhagavathar, that was the spirit. However, let me assume for a moment, that later I find out that this person to be of loose character and a boozer. What would be the impression created in my mind? I would never again set my eyes on him.

Idolising is not very uncommon - everyone of us do it. But when that idol fails to stand up to that adulation, what results is a downfall for the idol - and of course, regret in the minds of public.

Therefore, musicians, in their own self interest, should be more scrupulous in their public conduct - a hotel is not surely that private.

How come some superstars have become CMs (not Carnatic Musicians)? - through proper cultivation of their image. Let the musicians take a cue from them.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 19 Mar 2008, 18:32

Remember the words of Prophet Mohammed - "let the one who has not sinned cast the first stone" (against the adulteress who was being hounded by a mob).

VGV sir, wasn't it Jesus Christ? Is there a similar story involving Prophet Mohammed as well?
Sorry for the digression from the main topic of this thread.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 19 Mar 2008, 18:36

mv,
Maybe, You are right. I wrote it from my memory - not always a very reliable source.

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 19 Mar 2008, 19:00

vgvindan wrote:I fully agree with Sam that private life of anyone should not be impinged or commented by others.

When I prostrated before the bhagavathar, that was the spirit. However, let me assume for a moment, that later I find out that this person to be of loose character and a boozer. What would be the impression created in my mind? I would never again set my eyes on him.

Idolising is not very uncommon - everyone of us do it. But when that idol fails to stand up to that adulation, what results is a downfall for the idol - and of course, regret in the minds of public.

Therefore, musicians, in their own self interest, should be more scrupulous in their public conduct - a hotel is not surely that private.

How come some superstars have become CMs (not Carnatic Musicians)? - through proper cultivation of their image. Let the musicians take a cue from them.

Sound.

arasi wrote:The charge covers their dirty laundry being washed in public too, I suppose!

Sadly, it often does.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 19 Mar 2008, 21:15

A Small Digression

I HAVE often been haunted with a fancy that the creeds of men might be
paralleled and represented in their beverages.
Wine might stand for genuine Catholicism, and ale for genuine Protestantism; for these at least are real religions with comfort and strength in them.
Clean cold Agnosticism would be clean cold water -- an excellent thing if you can get it.
Most modern ethical and idealistic movements might be well represented by soda-water -- which is a fuss about nothing.
Mr. Bernard Shaw's philosophy is exactly like black coffee -- it awakens, but it does not really inspire.
Modern hygienic materialism is very like cocoa; it would be impossible to express one's contempt for it in stronger terms than that.

Sometimes one may come across something that may honestly be compared to milk, an ancient and heathen mildness, an earthly yet sustaining mercy -- the milk of human kindness. You can find it in a few pagan poets and a few old fables; but it is everywhere dying out.

GK Chesterton

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 20 Mar 2008, 05:03

Great Coolji !!

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 20 Mar 2008, 09:40

Coolji,
Ramakrishna Paramahamsa in his typical style of fables, tells a story of a robber who donned the garb of a sannyasi to hide himself in a village from being caught. The villagers considered him to be a genuine sannyasi and started paying obeisance to him. This, over a period of time changed the thief-sannyasi's behaviour and he, in fact, became a true sannyasi.

So public image makes man think twice. Notwithstanding public image, one's own health should dictate against any such addictive substances.

The British played this game with some non-submissive tribes in East of India and other South Asian countries by introducing them to drugs and the consequences are plain. In all such areas, men have become physical and mental wrecks. (Now the elected Governments are playing the same game with their own populace.)

The lesson is as plain as - hastAmalaka.
Thyagaraja in his typical style would say 'aracEti puNTiki addamuvale' - 'kaippuNNukku kaNNADi'

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 21 Mar 2008, 08:16

VGV
Just curious to know if Tyagaraja touched upon the subject of a stray irresponsible comment by a dhobi and Lord Rama's ways of handling the issue with his Wife.

What we are debating here is not what is personal / or what is open to public scrutiny..
What we are debating, is the importance one should give to a Hotel Managers remark and
the link between Practising CM and Personal beliefs , which we all assume , was the intention of the Trinity.
Hypothetically if one were to argue that even a listener is not worthy of listening if he does not meet the standards , every concert Hall would be almost empty.
I am not an artist myself, But I am still wondering the beautiful things that may have transpired while the artists were drinking and singing their way to bliss.

I have argued in the past ,against this selective prudishness and throwing up to scrutiny , the artists personal habits.
Just because they offer to come on stage and get to ones place for performing , it does not mean that they offer themselves for scrutiny.

Let us get to that after we spend reams and reams on their travails and sufferings in the process of acquiring a talent against all odds.
The fact that these quirks in their characters INTEREST US FIRST shows our own weaknesses.
Let us remember , the author of the original post has not yet posted a review of that so called divine concert.
If that Music was not worth discussing, It should be the same with what happened after that.
Let us remember that we live in a scoiety today so socially aware that a so called successful marriage of two generations ago would not pass muster by todays standards.

money · Post by **money** » 21 Mar 2008, 08:43

Coolji, cool as usual.You have summed up the feelings of many of rasikas succinctly.
I think we need the artistes more than they need us. Many of them inspite of their talketiveness retain a
streak of the child in them, which makes them very likeable.Personally I have found it a pleasure to move with them.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 21 Mar 2008, 13:28

coolkarni wrote:Just curious to know if Tyagaraja touched upon the subject of a stray irresponsible comment by a dhobi and Lord Rama's ways of handling the issue with his Wife.

Coolji... I think the "moral" of that story is that Royalty is held to a higher standard with respect to morals than their subjects although it may be unfair.

Suresh

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 21 Mar 2008, 18:04

I think there is a communication gap between what we are discussing. I do not want to confuse it further. My last post.

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 21 Mar 2008, 19:28

1. there were days when senior vidwans left the concert abruptly to perform sandhyavandhan in the evening. even during those times there were seniors who had to be stopped from going on drinking because it was late for the concert. there is no correlation between performance and these habits.
2. there were geniuses in the field who as time progressed were not able to bear the weight of their vidwath. i remember a great nadhaswara vidwan, a great flute vidwan and a great drama singer. they all died prematuredly only because of drinking.
3. notwithstanding the rigidity of the puritan angle the society does not take a teacher or a doctor striking. the same way it does not approve of a priest falling to bad ways. the same is applicable for a CMusician too. this is becuase they are considered barometers of the society.
4. since the musicians are always prone to vices scholars did not equate them to vedic scholars and reduced them one level down calling cm gandharva veda.
5. in the forum we have two extremes. VGV's school of thought of discipline and coolkarni's liberal attitude of 'game for any thing'.
6. what have habitual drinkers achieved other than spoiling the health? is there any statistics to prove that they performed better when they were drunk? in my opinion in course of time drinking creates an imbalance in the psyche.
i may not exactly fit in the most disciplined category but i would expect a cmusician to display extreme discipline whether in public or in private.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 21 Mar 2008, 21:12

Chalanata,

That was a good analysis indeed. Coolji to the "left" and VGV to the "right" extremes

Yes, I personally feel that we tend to judge the personal lives of Carnatic Musicians more harshly than other artists because of the Bhakthi Component in the music. For example Hindustani artists and Film musicians will never be subject to the same rigourous puritan benchmarks.

I agree with Nick that embarrassing behaviour is embarrassing behaviour whether it is induced with or without the help of spirits

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 21 Mar 2008, 21:27

Instead of left and right, can we have VGV as the advaitin, and Kji as the dvaitin?

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 21 Mar 2008, 22:17

I feel VGV comments have not been fully understood. He was neither left or right. Just read his post no#26 . The following lines make his views very clear

I fully agree with Sam that private life of anyone should not be impinged or commented by others

Therefore, musicians, in their own self interest, should be more scrupulous in their public conduct - a hotel is not surely that private.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Mar 2008, 22:36

VGV is more liberatarian then, the space where left and right curves back and meet together.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 22 Mar 2008, 00:29

VGV's school of thought of discipline

In the precincts of Integral Coach Factory at Perambur, there is a board with a quote of Pt. Nehru.
"In the chains of discipline the bird of freedom soars" (or words to that effect).

The word 'freedom' or 'independence' is translated as 'swatantra'.

Swatantra - means 'self regulation' - it is neither 'freedom' nor 'independence'

That is the purport of the quote of Pt. Nehru.

Anyone who is not self-regulated (swatantra), will always be 'paratantra' -regulated by others - ie dependent. We are all born swatantra but become para-tantra by our choice.

Kindly do not take this as sermon - As the word 'discipline' was used here, I wanted to clarify what it means to me.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Mar 2008, 00:35

Shall we say then 'Swatantra' gives you the freedom to be yourself.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 22 Mar 2008, 00:46

can we have VGV as the advaitin, and Kji as the dvaitin

nirvANa SaTkam

manO buddhi ahaMkAra cittAni nAham
na ca SrOtra jihvE na ca ghrANa nEtrE
na ca vyOma bhUmirna tEjO na vAyuH
cidAnanda rUpaH SivOhaM SivOham

na ca prANa saMjnO na vai panca vAyuH
na vA sapta dhAturna vA panca kOSaH
na vAk pANi pAdau na cOpastha pAyU
cidAnanda rUpaH SivOhaM SivOham

na mE dvEsha rAgau na mE lObha mOhau
madO naiva mE naiva mAtsarya bhavaH
na dharmO na cArthO na kAmO na mOkshaH
cidAnanda rUpaH SivOhaM SivOham

na puNyaM na pApaM na saukhyaM na duHkhaM
na mantrO na tIrthaM na vEdA na yajnAH
ahaM bhOjanaM naiva bhOjyaM na bhOktA
cidAnanda rUpaH SivOhaM SivOham

na mE mRtyu SankA na mE jAti bhEdaH
pitA naiva mE naiva mAtA na janma
na bandhurna mitraM gururnaiva SishyaH
cidAnanda rUpaH SivOhaM SivOham

ahaM nirvikalpO nirAkAra rUpO
vibhurvyApya sarvatra sarvEndriyANAM
sadA mE samatvaM na muktirna bandhaH
cidAnanda rUpaH SivOhaM SivOham

Spirit of Nirvana Satakam

I have no name
I am as fresh breeze of the mountains.
I have no shelter,
I am as the wandering waters.
I have no sanctuary,
Like the dark gods.
Nor am I in the shadow of deep temples.
I have no sacred books,
Nor am I well seasoned in tradition.

I am not in the incense mounting on high altars,
Nor in the pomp of ceremonies.
I am neither in the graven image
Nor in the rich chant of a melodious voice.
I am not bound by theories
Nor corrupted by beliefs.
I am not held in the bondage of religions.
Nor in the pious agony of their priests.

I am not entrapped by philosophies
Nor held in the power of their sects.
I am neither low nor high,
I am not the worshipper nor the worshipped.
I am free.
My song is the song of the river
Calling for the open seas,
Wandering, wandering.
I am life.

Life has no philosophy
No cunning system of thought.
Life has no religion
No adorations in deep sanctuaries.
Life has no god
Nor the burden of fearsome mystery.

Life has no abode,
Nor the aching sorrow of ultimate decay.
Life has no pleasure, no pain,
Nor the corruption of pursuing love.
Life is neither good or evil,
Nor the dark punishment of careless sin.

Life gives no comfort
Nor does it rest on the shrine of oblivion.
Life is neither spirit nor matter,
Nor is there the cruel division of action and inaction.
Life has no death,
Nor has it the void of loneliness in the shadow of time.
Free is the man who lives in the eternal.
For life is.

http://www.kriyayogalahiri.com/message/ ... age-23.pdf

nirvANa SaTkam - with meanings may be downloaded from http://www.celextel.org/

pancA-Sat pITha rUpiNi - These 50 seats are the alphabets. All the words are nothing but the permutations and combinations of these 50 letters. - So is 'advaita' and 'dvaita' - they are mere play of words. What is 'manO-vAcAm-agOcara', how could it either be 'dvaita' or even 'advaita'?

'vaidAraiyum angu vAzhavaippon' - He protects him too who abuses Him. (tiruppugazh).

Mods may kindly move this to appropriate forum

PS : The Satakam Slokas have been updated. Corrections are welcome.

tilt · Post by **tilt** » 22 Mar 2008, 01:17

I am not knowledgeable in carnatic music and its ties to religion or morality (although I sing it in addition to singing blues, jazz and classic rock). I am also not qualified to talk about Hinduism or religion (though I am born into a Brahmin family) nor am I qualified to make moral judgements on others, but I have an observation to make and a question to ask:

Observation: Music performances or plays or movies are just forms of entertainment and performers are basically entertainers irrespective of the genre of music. As long as their public performance does not suffer I frankly do not care if they are permanently inebriated or intoxicated, even on stage. If their performance is worthy of my prostrating at their feet after a performance, I shall still do so even if I knew that they were despicable people in terms of character; because it is their performance on stage for which I am showing respect at that moment.

Question: What makes carnatic musicians different from an other type of entertainer, say like a Sivaji Ganesan or a Silk Smitha that some people cannot accept the fact that they are known to like alcohol or drugs?

I notice that someone here had brought up the issue that we do not bother about it so much if a Hindustani musician were to do the same thing, probably because of the Bhakthi aspect of carnatic music. Is it mainly that most of the carnatic songs concern some god or the other?

Think of Saigal, think of MKT Bhagavathar, think of Kannadasan, think of Sivaji Ganesan, think of Jimi Hendrix, think of Kurt Cobain, think of Eric Clapton, hell, think of The Beatles - each and every one of them was either almost always drunk or gambling or smoking or doing drugs or basically being what some people might consider "of bad character". Did that in any way affect their art other than the fact that some of them probably died earlier than they should have?

If an artiste puts up a good performance for me, I am happy and respect that artiste and the art. What they do outside of that art is no concern of mine and I have no right to stand in moral judgement of anyone.

I know I am very new to this forum, but I felt strongly about this and thought I had to put my thoughts forward. It is not my intention to antagonise anyone here or presume to know more than anyone else here.

Thanks and cheers

sridhar_ranga · Post by **sridhar_ranga** » 22 Mar 2008, 02:02

vgvindan wrote:
VGV's school of thought of discipline
In the precincts of Integral Coach Factory at Perambur, there is a board with a quote of Pt. Nehru.
"In the chains of discipline the bird of freedom soars" (or words to that effect).

The word 'freedom' or 'independence' is translated as 'swatantra'.

Swatantra - means 'self regulation' - it is neither 'freedom' nor 'independence'

That is the purport of the quote of Pt. Nehru.

Anyone who is not self-regulated (swatantra), will always be 'paratantra' - dependent. We are all born swatantra but become para-tantra by our choice.

Kindly do not take this as sermon - As the word 'discipline' was used here, I wanted to clarify what it means to me.

may be a digression but couldn't help thinking of elders in my family saying that we all live in a state of pAratantryam - that of subservience to God, and live because of His will, and exist for His pleasure, as His "SEsha"

Sri

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Mar 2008, 02:06

uLLadai ArAyappOnAl,
uLLAngai nellik kani pOl
Edum oLirvadillai--Am,
kaip puNNukkuk kaNNADi
tEvaiyA enRAl, aduvum uNDu!

kadai kadaiyAy SonnAlum
kAdil vizha vENDumE?
avaravar pOkku avarukku
enRAlum, aDuttavar nOgAdu
Sollum Sol oru kAl payan tarum

Aga, manidAbimAnamillA madam
Sila nEram madattiRkum iDam tarumO?

avai aDakkam avarkku vENDum
namakkO avarinum avar tarum
iSai inbam onRE vENDum--tavira,

avar avar deivam avarukku--
rasikattanam maTTUmE namakku

Translation:
If we begin to analyze things
nothing is as crystal clear
as an amla fruit in hand

If you ask, do you need a mirror
to see a wounded hand,
Yes, that too might be necessary

Even if we go to great lengths
to relate things by way of stories,
will they be heard? I doubt it

Each to one's own ways
But to say in a way without hurting
might help, who knows?
Thus, do beliefs which lack compassion
give rise to ire sometimes?

All we expect is that they are civilized,
have stage manners and decorum
Not the rest--we desire only the joy
that their music brings

Each to his own god,
appreciation of music alone
is ours...

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 22 Mar 2008, 05:35

arasi wrote:If you ask, do you need a mirror
to see a wounded hand,
Yes, that too might be necessary

I guess you could think of an X-ray, MRI, CT scan or even an arthroscope as a 'mirror'.....

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 22 Mar 2008, 06:11

It does not take much to get a tag of bohemian in these parts I guess.
Just have to walk to one of the dimly lit bylanes, light a cigarette , cup it in the hand to ensure the lips dont touch it, take a few furtive puffs and BE SEEN BY THE NEIGHBOUR MAMI who has come to the Grocery next door , for a late night top up, of Coffee Powder.

It is this secretive moral value we, as a society ,attach to these things ,that gets troublesome in later years.That is my simple liberal philosophy.I think less of my mean teetotaller friends/contacts than my licentious good hearted ones.
With good reason.

When I was Twelve, MY Grandma who had come to Jamshedpur to help out my Mom with the birth of my younger sister, was one day aghast to see My Dad teaching me Poker on a very cold evening , in the warmth of a medicinal dose of Brandy in hot water.

Seeing her nearly faint , I remember my Dads words which comforted her: Look Atthey, This brat is going to learn these things one day or the other.I cannot prevent him from doing so and I wont be there near him always.The next best thing I can do is to take the sheen of such activities by doing it in front of him and teaching him to evaluate things for what they are .Nothing more Nothing Less.
Throughout my Adult Life I have lived upto his expectations and have seen the wisdom of his words.

A good sprinkling of American Indians who come home do invite me for a drink which I have always refused.Some have left bottles which we, as a family ,we drain it down the bathroom outlet.

My point has always been that at some time point in the rasikas evolution , we start getting interested in the artist more than his art.And we go in search of his Fountainhead.The wonderful things we hardly care for, which mold the artist over decades and decades.

To be incited by an activity like the one that started this thread , shows more about the poster than anything else.And is not in the spirit of the Pursuit of Art.

An artist with all his trials and tribulations , if he can still perform for a group and make them feel divine , he has passed my test of decorum.

Here are some snippets which may help in understanding my point of view.
Found this in an old journal of mine[
Humphrey Trevelkyan on Goethe
It seems that two qualities are necessary if a great artist is to remain creative to the end of a long life:he must on the one hand retain an abnormally keen awareness of Life , he must never grow complacent , never be content with Life,must always demand the impossible and when he cannot have it, despair.
The burden of mystery must be with him day and night.He must be shaken by the naked truths that will not be comforted.This divine discontent , this disequillibrium , this state of inner tension is the source of all artistic energy.Many lesser poets have it only in their youth.Some of the greatest lose it in middle life.Wordsworth lost the courage to despair and with it, his poetic power.
But more often the dynamic tensions are so powerful that they destroy the man before he reaches maturity.
MAY SARTON[quote][/quote]

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 22 Mar 2008, 08:11

arasi wrote:avar avar deivam avarukku--
rasikattanam maTTUmE namakku

So wonderfully put Arasi