Taala tracking for instrumentalists

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 17 Feb 2008, 21:29

I invite readers over to this post here: http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4744, wherein some of us are wondering how instrumentalists (with the possible exception of Mridangists) keep Taala, a challenging task, considering that they do not have the advantage that the vocalists have, viz, free hands with which the beats in a Taala can be easily counted.

We had a discussion going, but it has stopped, so I want to revive it. This section of the forum seems to attract the most number of readers, and so, is likely to receive the attention of knowledgeable persons who may offer guidance and useful tips to eager students.

Please post your replies in the aforementioned thread instead of here, so that all responses are at one place.

Thanks!

money · Post by **money** » 21 Mar 2008, 04:39

They use the two feet for the purpose.Some of the instrumentalists say that they use their mind to keep track of the movements.Must be difficult initially.Human mind can get used to anything if trained properly and regularly.
Besides layam is an inbuilt thing.Most are born with it.For them it just flows.While some of us have to toil for it, they just use their imagination and get away!What unfairness.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 21 Mar 2008, 07:25

Besides layam is an inbuilt thing.Most are born with it

Correction.
Most, like me , are born without it.

Kamal Hasan in one of his interviews describes how difficult it is for an actor to keep using his hands naturally.And how they obstruct the flow of emotions , if the owner of the hand is not adept at using them.

My Misery too.Exactly the same.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 21 Mar 2008, 14:11

The discussion in the other thread has now taken off but in response to Money's observation...laya gyanam may be partly genetic but it can definitely be improved over time, I believe to concert level, in most cases...I am not laya killadi myself as many a hapless artiste would testify after watching me mess up the taalam...but I can say that it has improved considerably over the years...

That was a very interesting observation from kamal haasan...the movie buff in me will certainly look out for the hands next time I go to a theatre!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 21 Mar 2008, 22:44

It can certainly be improved.

Actually, I chose to learn a percussion instrument because I had more faith in my sense of rhythm than in my sense of pitch.

I was disappointed! But I learnt, and improved, in comparison to my starting point, hugely.

I also learnt how to tune mridangam and morsing, so pitch can be practised an learnt too!

Im A Skal Man · Post by **Im A Skal Man** » 22 Mar 2008, 02:15

Is it helpful to practice to a metronome or an electronic taal box?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 22 Mar 2008, 15:58

Many people say so.

It is a tutor to those who find constant tempo difficult.

It is a mirror to those who think their rhythm is more accurate than it is.

It is useful also to parctice at different tempos, just as that demand is placed on the accompanist.

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 22 Mar 2008, 20:41

I'm A Skal Man wrote:Is it helpful to practice to a metronome or an electronic taal box?

I'll give you a practical example of how a metronome helped me as a vocalist. When I tried to learn my first viloma misra chapu kriti from tape I found that I just could not get my mind wrapped around the beat. It was impossible to learn the song and the beat at once. So I took help of a friend and later a metronome to keep the talam while I learned and became comfortable with the gait and lyrics. Then I switched off the metronome and struggled to get the talam into my hand. But as some others have lamented on this forum, I was one of those who have to struggle mightily.

My experience playing mridangam with a metronome was much more difficult because I am absolutely a beginner in mridangam and just dont have the finger dexterity, plus my left hand seems to have a mind of its own.

On the other hand it gives you very clear indications about which combinations slow you down and which ones you speed up on (perhaps because you have it down pat).

To summarize, a metronome can help you but dont expect miracles. What I have learned is that beating your thigh raw a la SSI might seem excessive and even grotesque but has the side-effect of wiring the beat into your spinal cord in a way a metronome cannot. Or may be it is just we dont start out as youngsters practising to a metronome. I wonder how jazz and western musicians in general learn to keep the beat in their heads without shaking any body part visibly.

Good luck

-Then Paanan

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 22 Mar 2008, 21:54

I had ---and still have--- the same difficulty with misra chapu lessons for the mridangam!

The metronome really shines the spotlight on our mistakes. It is a hard master, inhuman in fact!

Even beating your thigh is only good if it is accurate; in learning, before that tala hand has become a discipline in itself, we can unconciously adjust it to fit our mistakes.

Whenever I have tried practice to a metronome, I find it very difficult, but I'm sure it is a difficulty that is good for me!

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 22 Mar 2008, 23:57

If you're using a metronome or talameter, it would be useful to pre-determine empirically the beat rate you find most suitable for each composition in your repertoire. Even one beat-per-min more or less than your optimum can be very disconcerting. Of course, this only works if the beat rate is part of the digital display of your machine.

Im A Skal Man · Post by **Im A Skal Man** » 27 Mar 2008, 05:14

Thanks for your thoughts Nick and vainika,

I recently recorded a track of handclaps to a click track. This has been helpful in keeping a consistent meter but also keeping track of stresses and the beginning of the cycle. I'm hoping this will help internalize the rhythm as I continue practicing veena. It might get tedious to do this for various speeds and taalas. I really have trouble memorizing melodies and paying attention to rhythm at the same time. They are almost like skills that need to be learned separately and then put together later.

It seems like music naturally speeds up and slows down, and that's part of what gives it feeling--being in control is another matter though.

I think most Western tunes have shorter rhythmic cycles with repetitive melodic patterns, usually in 4/4 or 3/4, so following the pulse can be a bit easier. (There are definitely exceptions though). The main thing is playing feeling, accenting different beats, and layering rhythm. That said, I fumble the rhythm on the most basic Ramones riff.

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 27 Mar 2008, 08:54

With the cd/dvd technology improving constantly , is there an equipment, a video screen attached to a player, where by playing a cd, you can see a hand keeping thalam...clearly showing the first three fingers ( in the case of adi talam) and then the thattu and the veechu etc etc. I may be just day dreaming here...but in my case I always find it easy to look at some body maintaining the thalam which helps me to (a) keep the tempo at the steady rate (b) assists greatly at times of a eduppu other than samam, say 3/4 edam etc. Watching the hand and the fingers makes the job that much easier than the thalam meter....

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 27 Mar 2008, 09:12

Sam - perhaps it is a marketing opportunity for you to explore!

Maybe the tech wizzes can make an online graphical guru who puts tala for you and allows you to set the tala and speed. Cricket fans maybe familiar with the 3d commentary available on cricinfo: http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/cricinf ... t/site/3d/

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 27 Mar 2008, 13:59

Skal Man, All I can say to your experience of these difficulties is, Yep! That's carnatic music! I share your feelings and difficulties entirely, I'm sure many others do too.

Whilst our music is said to be the most rhythmically complex in the world, this is based on the enormous range of rhythm cycles, and their additive structures, as well as the odd-number beats that are hard on the 'foreign' ear.

In practice, the majority of the music heard in most concerts can be compared to 4/4 or 3/4 (Adi or Rupaka). The complexity is not so much in the underlying structure as in the overlaying patterns and stresses of the music. It is this that causes outsiders to listen and ask, "How can you even follow the beat in this, let alone know the beginning and end of the cycles?", and I have to confess that I sometimes still find myself not able to.

It is also this factor that, to my ear and mind (dead-horse-flogging warning), makes it so annoying when audience members insist on noisily putting talam --- putting a "stress noise" where it does not come in the music destroys the beautiful subtlety, and rhythm is followed (which can be done silently anyway) at the cost of the music itself.

The graphic hand would be great. I have no knowledge of computer animation, but apparently it is something in which India has a high place in the world: lets hope someone helps us out with this!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Mar 2008, 19:57

First of all I am in the same club. This is from a vocalist's perspective - and I am just a beginner/intermediate level student.

When I have to concentrate even a wee-bit on tala by mind starts thinking ok got to make sure that swara falls on that count, or starts mid-way between those two beats. This seems like attention away from the singing part, and I "muzhuppufy" (approximate/smudge) the sangati. Actually what happens most often is the singing starts being less natural and becomes more contrived. In fact, if I then re-sing a part of the song without putting the tala, it really feels like a huge burden is off, shackles are broken, and I relax more, and I sing more naturally and more intent (at least according to me

! But then I am sure then that a external reference point be it someone else or a tala meter would tell the true story about the rhythmic-flow part

I am fairly sure that the fundamental problem here is not that tala keeping is somehow unnatural, against the grain to natural singing (good heavens!), but is simply that I am not 100% super-confident of the tune and its flow itself or lets say control of your voice to the tune I want to deliver. No matter how sure I think I am, if this is happening, then I need to get way more confident. To get to that "supreme confident" level lots and lots and lots practice is needed. Once I get that, I think then I don't have to divide my conscious attention to two things and thus reduce the overall efficiency of both (?).

BTW, that animated tala keeping - yes I have wondered about the technical feasibility of it

. Hmmm....

Some random musings: I think that tala keeping is more a reference, a time keeper - sort of like a speedometer on your car. You don't have to constantly be checking against it - am I under speed? am I over speed? what is my speed now? what is my speed now? But you need to check (i.e. divert some of your attention) against it optimally to confirm that you are going on track. When you are supremely confident about the tune and its flow/internal-rhythm (which should come with lots of practice), then I wonder if the tala keeping also becomes more steady without jitter, without any excess conscious effort (no "self micromanagement")? Also, then, the times you have to check against it goes down - and you may find that you are on track almost always. I am not 100% sure but I think this is what professionals attain. They don't really have to keep every beat. The tala flow is "in them" along with the tune all the time - just like the sruthi. And thus tala keeping is treated like same way like the sruthi in terms of a reference. And yes they do go off sometimes (like sruthi) - but in general their grasp of the flow of the song is solid that they dont have to consciously think of it all the time like we beginners may be doing.

Arun

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 27 Mar 2008, 20:16

I think that tala keeping is more a reference, a time keeper - sort of like a speedometer on your car. You don't have to constantly be checking against it - am I under speed? am I over speed? what is my speed now? what is my speed now?

True when your are driving alone. But when you are playing in tandem with others (say like fighter aircrafts flying in formation) then you need to be in sync with others.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Mar 2008, 20:17

rajumds - ah - I argue that if you are super sure about your formation, then you dont have to be constantly checking "am I in sync, am I in sync", and thus not watching where *you* are going - right?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Mar 2008, 20:33

BTW, that animated tala keeping - yes I have wondered about the technical feasibility of it . Hmmm....

When I saw the post about this yesterday, I said to myself 'Hmmm.. I am sure Arun is thinking about this..'

In the past few years, computer programs for animations have become cheaper and mainstream, so this should be possible without any coding from scratch. I will see if I can find anything that will help here.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Mar 2008, 20:42

- I actually meant I have thought about it quite sometime ago

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Mar 2008, 22:55

Well here is a prototype: http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/tala_counter/

Let me know how it is. It does only Adi tala with obviously not "standard hand gestures" using stuff i picked off the net but that can be fixed. We need hand models (not the George Costanza types - any seinfeld fans? ).

I think can be easily extended to other talas. Also the first time around the timings may be off as the browser would take a bit to download the images. I would think eventually you can just download all the files on your computer and run it and that way avoid any network lags. And then may be you can run it from your phone

Arun

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Mar 2008, 00:16

If you could make beats 5 and 7 the same as 1 I would find it clearer.

I quite like the closed hand as an easy approximation for "the sound of one hand clapping"

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Mar 2008, 01:49

ok - version #2. I made beat 5 and 7 same as 1. Again, the url is http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/tala_counter/

Also with sound now, although on Firefox it will need quicktime plugin (you can choose not to install in which case it will run "silently". Also there will be an initial delay as the sound files get pre-loaded (they arent that large).

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Mar 2008, 04:01

probably spending way too much time on this, but I added misrachapu and khandachapu. Now I can see where *I* screw up most

.

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 28 Mar 2008, 04:56

what a great idea! kudos

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Mar 2008, 06:23

thanks mri_fan

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 28 Mar 2008, 06:24

Great prototype application Arun! Adi tala worked fine for me but am having problems with the images not loading for the chapu talas. (using IE 6)

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Mar 2008, 06:32

i think it takes a while to "prime the browser" - i.e. for it to load all the images. I wonder if its loading is sometimes prematurely cut off due to advancement of time (and hence a re-request for a new image). But it did work for me from IE 6 (chapu talas).

One possibility - slow it down as much as you can and see if it finishes. Once that is done (and browser cache has the images), then you can speed it up.

I will to have find a way to pre-load all the images. But it would have to wait till Tue - as I am heading to cleveland early tomorrow morning.

Arun

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 28 Mar 2008, 06:39

Arunk,

In playing around with it, I'd like to suggest the speed increase for misra chapu for each click of the faster button be decreased...I think it increases much faster than the other two thalas, and the only two reasonable speeds are a little out of the range of most songs (too fast + too slow)

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Mar 2008, 06:55

ok, i adjusted it now. I hope it is better. Of course the algorithm was sort of ad-hoc

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 28 Mar 2008, 06:56

Arunk.....this is exactly what I have written above....and it looks very good....I am sure you can make some interesting improvements to it and believe me, this will help me a lot. For a starter, I used your 2nd version to sing a song ( in my mind, though) which starts 3/4 idam....man...works like majic.....this is great...thanks a lot Arunk....keep working on it...

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 28 Mar 2008, 06:57

Sorry mate...one more request...can you please add rupakam ?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Mar 2008, 06:57

i added it - but couldnt find the "right images" and what I chose didnt quite seem right. A few more days.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 28 Mar 2008, 08:10

Working fine now! Will add a link on www.carnaticcorner.com over the weekend

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Mar 2008, 12:02

Arun, I just saw this. Wow, a lot of progress in a few hours. Works very well for me. And cute and subtle gestures for the Chapu thalas as well. Great job. Thanks Arun.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Mar 2008, 15:03

Arun, that's amazing, particularly done so quickly.

Excellent

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 28 Mar 2008, 16:32

Thanks Arun .

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 28 Mar 2008, 18:15

Arunk

Nicely done. Thanks for sharing.

-Then Paanan

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 28 Mar 2008, 21:21

Excellent stuff Arun! I propose that this be installed in the Music Academy for the benefit of errant vidwans, hand genstures and all! How about adding an "uh oh" when the tala slips!

money · Post by **money** » 28 Mar 2008, 22:32

Any instrument based talam or talometer as some name it, is an unkind and heartless taskmaster.Time and time again one is forced to conform to a time deadline when he is just not ready or just not in a state to meet- to its inhuman precision.
I am told even masters in talams find it difficult to put talam by hand to match the talometer consistently.It takes some time before it is possible to stabilise into some synchronisation with it.Even then at some point one does miss a beat or two, if one were to do it without looking at the instrument.The purveyors of laya only can throw light on this.
Perhaps the best layam is the one kept with hand without thinking about it.
The instrumentalists are doubly handicapped - one by the inability to keep time with hand or foot, secondly the need to keep time using an instrument which always seems to mock at him.Phew.Those lucky ones who always know where the off stump is.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Mar 2008, 23:09

For practice: an inhumane master is probably just what is wanted.

For performance, the talam putter, if a performer has asked for one, or has chosen to watch a particular set of trustworthy-looking hands, has a knife edge to walk..... As I understand it, he should put talam accurately, but he must also adjust for the performer.

If my teacher asked me to put talam whilst he practiced something he would tell me off for listening to him --- just concentrate on the tala. I could seldom do it for more than a minute or two.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Mar 2008, 23:35

Those lucky ones who always know where the off stump is

Nice analogy, in space in contrast to time which is the case with laya.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Mar 2008, 06:57

thanks everyone. Will get back to this in a couple of days.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Mar 2008, 01:03

It does only Adi tala with obviously not "standard hand gestures" using stuff i picked off the net but that can be fixed. We need hand models (not the George Costanza types - any seinfeld fans? ).

Good reference Arun..Yes, I know that episode, quite a funny one. That Costanza can't get a break, except when he acts exact opposite to his instincts ( that is another episode of course ).

Nick H wrote
In practice, the majority of the music heard in most concerts can be compared to 4/4 or 3/4 (Adi or Rupaka).

Let us include Khanda Chapu and Misra Chapu. What would their time signatures be? 5/8 and 7/8 ?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 31 Mar 2008, 12:11

Those time signatures are to be found in Western folk music, and yes, I guess that is how they translate, although it does not convey the 2+3 or 3+4.

Simply serving the point I was making, I quoted adi and rupaka is being the most often performed. Of course there are programs when they do not constitute the majority.

I'm open to correction on that, of course: I'm certain Adi is the most common, but which, out of khanda, rupaka and misra takes second place?

thathwamasi · Post by **thathwamasi** » 31 Mar 2008, 19:17

yeah 5/8 and 7/8 are the right time signatures. Just for reference, Johann Sebastein Bach has composed in Sankeerna Chapu. The famous "Jesu Joy of man's desiring" is 9/8

.....

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 31 Mar 2008, 21:12

Gosh, I never knew that! There's a popular jazz piece in Khanda --- called Take Five!

I've heard sankeerna in some E. European folk, and it clearly followed the 4+5 pattern as well.

But, I think I've only heard it once here, but had it not been for a better informed audience member putting talam I might well have failed to identify it

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Mar 2008, 22:28

How about Nadai ( sub-beat ) variations? How common is that in WM ( classical, folk or Jazz ). I have heard of people talking about triplets ( thisram ) but not much else.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 01 Apr 2008, 03:36

a related post on a blog a while ago: http://sunson.wordpress.com/2007/07/31/ ... ern-music/

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 Apr 2008, 18:42

I thought I'd posted! Seems to have disappeared...

Anyway, Enjoyed your blog arunk, although I sadly couldn't get clip 3 to play.

The two "khanda" songs both seemed to me to fit khanda quite nicely.

triplets and quadruplets are common in Western music; just about any measure of "-plets" can be accomodated, and probably have been. What I don't think happens in Western music is nadai change, where the beat remains the same, but the tempo appears to change due to compressing or expanding the pulses over fewer or more beats. I guess it is not really necessary, as the Western musician has the freedom to alter tempo as a tool of expression.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 01 Apr 2008, 21:07

Thanks nick. I dont know why clip #3 didnt play for you. The link is good as I am able to play it.

Arun