Female singers singing in false voice.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 27 Mar 2008, 10:36

I always when I was younger wondered that Y there exists 2 type of voices for female.

One so thin and another flat. I thought the ladies with thin voices opted cinema and the flatter voices opted classical music.

Since I was influenced by sweet janaki and sweet susheela I always thought that thin those are the sweet and melliflouos voices and abhored classical singer's voice. Ofcourse, I was enlightened much later.

But Y the difference. False voice always existed or was it post 50????. y shoudl female play back singers always sing in false voice? y a good and sweet voice has 2 norms , one for cinema and one for classical singing.

I guess that this falsetto was started by Lata and all susheela and Janaki and Vanis followed suit.

Expecting members valuable input.

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 27 Mar 2008, 11:35

I think Lata and Asha have been singing with their natural voices,for more than 50 years. they did not have the necessity to develop false voices.i also think voice culture was not developed so scientifically, when they started singing for films .while speaking about Asha, her voice and her mode of singing, I cannot refrain from a reference to the legend OPNayyar,because of whose choice of songs , suitable to her voice, Asha skyrocketed to fame . people may think that this sort of heroworship of mine, may make me build a temple for OPN, just as some trichty fans did forKHUSHBOO!!! gobilalitha

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 27 Mar 2008, 12:11

no, lata and asha have not been singing in natural voices at all for a long time. generally female play back singers employ 2 shruti more than their natural voices. it is the order of the day. generally if it is normal for female to have between 4 and 6 female playback singers had 7 +.

It was once discussed by a famous musician in an interview. even anuradha sriram once was elaborating in an interview.

generally voice goes flatter i.e decreases in shruti as we age and this is a natural phenomenon. . but conversely it is the opposite to playback singers since they employ falsetto .

Listen to Ayega Ayega of lata and Suno Sajna of Lata . it woudl be like 2 complete voices.

there are many earlier songs of p.susheela where she has sung with her own voice. and she had gradually raised it to higher pitches.

i ll let you know that in the evening.

besides i am not trying to debate if falsetto is good or bad. that can be a different thread.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Mar 2008, 17:24

In the old mikeless days even CM singers (men and women) used a higher false voice to reach farther into the audience. One can get some idea by listening to the old vinyl LPs. And indeed some of them did develop voice problems in later years!

money · Post by **money** » 28 Mar 2008, 22:56

The female playback singers always suffer from an occupational problem of singing duet with male singers whose sruthi is by nature low.For falling in tune, they need to match the male sruti at the shadjam of next octave. thereby raising their sruti to 6.5 or 7.Singing way above ones natural sruthi does induce false voice.One can notice this at the struggles of Anuradha Sriram when she sings jugalbandhi with Sriram,inspite of her strength of a high pitched voice.
Inspite of this handicap, it seems far fetched that Lata and Asha and Susheela used false voices.They never needed the crutches of a false voice as they had tremendous voice range.
It is to thie credit that they maintained their voice quality inspite of this harsh load on thier voice.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Mar 2008, 02:29

True. Female support singers accompanying male singers have to suffer this too. KVN and Padma for instance. Nor is the support very effective.
On the other hand, dependent on the Sruti of course, do male support singers do better while accompanying female singers? Just wondering...

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 29 Mar 2008, 06:04

arasi wrote:True. Female support singers accompanying male singers have to suffer this too. KVN and Padma for instance. Nor is the support very effective.
On the other hand, dependent on the Sruti of course, do male support singers do better while accompanying female singers? Just wondering...

DKP amma and DKJ sir-is an example

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 29 Mar 2008, 07:00

I wish to point out an interesting example of GNB& MSS in their movie duets like Sakuntalai etc in which the reverse sort of happened! GNB whose strength was in the upper regions was forced to sing at the lower end in the movie duets & MSS of course was the unquestioned Queen of the upper reaches of the sonic spectrum. Many feel GNB CAME OFF WORSE because he was forced to a region which was not his forte....To me it reinforces the profound observation of Madurai Mani Iyer who said every one has a comfort zone dictated by their natural range & violating it usually leads to various difficulties! Shouting or false voices is not the answer by implication......vkv

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 29 Mar 2008, 12:22

it seems far fetched that Lata and Asha and Susheela used false voices.They never needed the crutches of a false voice as they had tremendous voice range.

without exception everyone used false voices. but still susheela or a lata managed it so well without much strain to be detected.

listen to azhaikkadhe ninaikkadhe by susheela in manalane mangayin bakyam. but later as she aged she adapted a voice above her natural shrudhi.

and agail listen to lata's ayega ayega. these are 2 examples.

and even nithyashree when she sings for cinema adapts a false voice . i have heard a song poova poova poova poova poove by her which is completlely above her natural shrudhi.

The female playback singers always suffer from an occupational problem of singing duet with male singers whose sruthi is by nature low.For falling in tune, they need to match the male sruti at the shadjam of next octave. thereby raising their sruti to 6.5 or 7.Singing way above ones natural sruthi does induce false voice

but still when they sing solo too they sing in the same voice where they dont have to adjust. But what happened over the years is that it is has become a norm for playback singers when they dont have to sing duet along with male playback singers. nowadays female singers sing at different convinient time as a separate track which is later joined by technology.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Mar 2008, 15:14

You guys are all using a terminology here that you seem happy with, and everybody knows what everybody else is talking about but...

Isn't 'false' a bit harsh?

False to me suggests artificial, or artificially changed or augmented.

Recording the voice and then playing it back through a processor that raises the frequency would be truly false. I don't know if that is what g_m is referring to in the previous post, but I do understand that recording studios routinely make small adjustments of pitch and tempo to fit separately recorded parts together.

Singing at a different pitch for a different market or audience would seem to be just that, it is not false, it is an adjustment.

Now, if anyone was to describe that high-pitched "little-girl" filmy voice as irritating I'd agree whole-heartedly!

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 29 Mar 2008, 15:37

dear nick.

no it is not harsh. actually it is quite often used. Falsetto is also used. but this is for men who is high voice range.

Besides I did not suggest that is it wrong or irritating. I just was trying to know wheer the difference started .i thought someone would throw light.

By the by I have heard many beautiful songs sung by them and I am a fan of Janaki who also employs a pitch higher than usual pitch for ladies.

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 29 Mar 2008, 16:43

No, nick H is mostly right. It is NOT necessarily false merely because of a change in pitch - a vocalist's range in pitch varies from each individual, and it is often more of an an adjustment. Of course, some of the very higher notes or lower notes in that adjusted pitch in which they are singing, may seem unusual, but, whether it is false depends entirely on the individual, and is not something that can be so easily generalised.

Punarvasu wrote:
arasi wrote:On the other hand, dependent on the Sruti of course, do male support singers do better while accompanying female singers? Just wondering...
DKP amma and DKJ sir-is an example

That is arguable, as DKJ was not necessarily better (while accompanying DKP) than when he was solo. vkv made a better example using GNB and MSS for this point.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Mar 2008, 17:57

Thank you, gentlemen...

g_m... my final line was an outrageously cheeky and personal judgement, hence the

s. Millions love this music, I don't.

I'm wondering if we have a vocabulary misunderstanding here: falsetto is one of those (from the Italian, I'm fairly certain) Western-classical technical terms for a vocal range. False just means fake.

But, if it is felt that the singing style is contrived or unnatural for that artist, then I can understand calling it false.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Mar 2008, 19:31

Falsettists is another way to describe those who 'sound' like a falsetto.
We could also say that they put on fake voices. Many find the effect pleasing while some of us find it irritating. There too, a Lata or Susheela do not sound that way while some modern day play back voices can be irritating, dependent on individual tastes...

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 29 Mar 2008, 21:28

Why is it a rule that the male and female singers have to be an octave apart when singing together? Why can't we imagine duets where they sing in harmony where they may be either a fixed width apart such as a fifth (sa and pa) or a fourth (sa and ma) or even a third (ga) and create interesting harmonies. Alternately they may sing different parts within the same octave with the male taking the lower part and the female taking the higher part of, say, a three-kattai (E) sruthi and come together on some middle note such as ma or pa occasionally. Please note that even when singing duets only the refrain is typically sung together, whereas the male and female singers are singing separately or in a back and forth style most of the time. Why is there such a strong requirement to be only an octave apart? Is it simply a matter of taste?

Are there instances of Indian film music where a non-ocatve difference between male and female singers has been attempted for an entire song or a significant part of the song? I only know of instances where the two singers are _briefly_ harmonizing but not in a sustained fashion.

-Then Paanan

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 29 Mar 2008, 21:32

vkv43034 wrote:....To me it reinforces the profound observation of Madurai Mani Iyer who said every one has a comfort zone dictated by their natural range & violating it usually leads to various difficulties! Shouting or false voices is not the answer by implication......vkv

I wonder how western singers manage this problem since their scores are set to absolute pitch rather than relative sruthi, which eliminates the luxury of sliding up or down in frequency to suit one's own voice.

-Then Paanan

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Mar 2008, 22:59

The soloists can ask for a change of key!

Otherwise, it is what they are trained for, and a huge range, especially the top notes, is an accomplishment in itself

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 29 Mar 2008, 23:03

wonder how western singers manage this problem since their scores are set to absolute pitch rather than relative sruthi, which eliminates the luxury of sliding up or down in frequency to suit one's own voice.

-Then Paanan
The two systems are quite different; In Western music Chords( in a simple way various frequencies being played simultaneously) are very crucial whereas in our system esp. Carnatic music Melody is King meaning one frequency follows another in time & even in a particular frequency slight variations are both necessary & essential from the base frequency -ornamentations- in the frequency itself; As a matter of fact both oral traditions as well as various ragas having developed over time from folk traditions etc . Things are more complex & as it would take too long & I am not sure how many would be interested in the detailed explanation I am leaving this in this simplistic situation......vkv

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 29 Mar 2008, 23:34

vkv, i am interested. you can elaborate a bit.

how many more takers? please show your names so that vkv could explain it with enthusiasm.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Mar 2008, 00:42

my final line was an outrageously cheeky and personal judgement, hence the s. Millions love this music, I don't

I am with you on that point Nick. I can only take so much of such a high pitched voice. The thing that does not go well with me is, certain emotional contexts in the cinema scene does not go well with such high pitched singing. Many times It is quite jarring with the transition from the scene before song to the song and from the song to the scene after the song. Given the high level of creativity that goes in to movie making and song making, this is one glaring thing that they do not seem to take into account.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 30 Mar 2008, 00:56

Reminds me of a film in which Sivaji Ganesan would speak in his sonorous voice and suddenly burst into song (not him and not T.M.Soundararajan-forget who it is). Anyway, the high pitched fine voice would go 'SingArap paingiLiyE pESu!' and make it all sound very strange.But then, when T.M. S sang for Shivaji, it was seamless!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Mar 2008, 01:39

But then, when T.M. S sang for Shivaji, it was seamless!

Yes, absolutely. In an interview, TMS mentioned about the thought process behind singing a certain way for Sivaji.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 30 Mar 2008, 02:15

vkv43034 wrote:
wonder how western singers manage this problem since their scores are set to absolute pitch rather than relative sruthi, which eliminates the luxury of sliding up or down in frequency to suit one's own voice.
-Then Paanan
The two systems are quite different; In Western music Chords( in a simple way various frequencies being played simultaneously) are very crucial whereas in our system esp. Carnatic music Melody is King meaning one frequency follows another in time & even in a particular frequency slight variations are both necessary & essential from the base frequency -ornamentations- in the frequency itself; As a matter of fact both oral traditions as well as various ragas having developed over time from folk traditions etc . Things are more complex & as it would take too long & I am not sure how many would be interested in the detailed explanation I am leaving this in this simplistic situation......vkv

Please give detailed explanation.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 30 Mar 2008, 05:19

Western Music has its scales to the middle "C" in the Piano which has an absolute frequency of 256 cycles and with the major & minor keys-white&black- the notes become:sa,ri,ga,ma,pa,dha, ni, &uppper sa which result in 12 notes just like our carnatic system- comprising the entire scale. In our music in principle there can be 22 separate notes between sa & and the upper sa which is twice the frequency; These can actually be detected by the ear.But these are used in the raga structure based on tradition, as well as the particular note needed for a particular raga again which we can hear clearly. In addition there is no need in our system for the lower "sa" to be 256 and only the ratios between various "swarams" have to be maintained. Actually only one in a million persons can detect absolute pitch! In our system slight oscillations & variations are considered as embellishments and would be considered wrong and not allowed in the western system. Micronotes as they are called are allowed in carnatic music. This puts the various notes used in ragas in our system as not exactly pure in the frequency sense. In western music they have to be absolute. This is one of the reasons "Chords" as they are called in westrn music where various pure frequencies simultaneously occur at any instant resulting in what is called Harmonic System and various harmonies result as a result of different notesbeing present at the same instant.. In our music at any instant in time only one frequency-like "ri" etc- can occur though the frequency may not be pure but consist of ever so slightly different frequencies on either side of the pure note. So the wetern musician has to take great care to produce the absolute frequency whereas our musician can relax a little bit on this point but he has to conform to what has traditionally been acceptable with emphasis on certain key notes as they have been allowed to occur resulting in emphasis on certain notes resulting in what can be considered Jeeva Swaras.
These are most easily demonstrated with an instrument; I will try to look for lec-dem where this point has been addressed. vkv

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Mar 2008, 08:14

The western scale has been 'tempered' too, to make this whole harmony thing work to the Western ear. This means that the intervals have been slightly adjusted from their mathematical values.

This is a complex subject that I can certainly not explain. vkv probably can, but I suggest that we might spend a little time with google before burdening him

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 30 Mar 2008, 08:25

Dear Nick,
I agree with what you have written. It is one of those "sticky wicket" situations to coin a cricketing analogy not easy to explain properly in a forum of this nature. Thanks for the input. vkv

money · Post by **money** » 30 Mar 2008, 22:23

GM says all female playback singers use false voices, so there may be something he is expressing which I have not understood.
There may be another aspect which may be giving the impression of a different voice of the singer.It is something which is generally not adopted in cm recordings.
The music directors do tamper with voices in film music by equalising and mastering techniques,so that they get the timber of voice they are looking for. ARR is a pastmaster in it.Some singers sound quite different .This can also happen inadvertently due to the sound engineers attempting some audio corrections which may end up in different tonal texture.
The cm recordings are more straight forward with less ofvoice tampering and so we may not be
experience it here.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Mar 2008, 23:18

Happily less common in Carnatic music --- but I have one BMK album which is unlistenable, and I notice echo or reverb being used on others.

GM says all female playback singers use false voices, so there may be something he is expressing which I have not understood.

That is what I was wondering too.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 31 Mar 2008, 00:35

REG: false voices & "tampering by sound engineers:
I have great difficulty in understanding what is exactly meant by "False Voice"; For example 1) I suggest we do not know most if not all of the singers to know what their"Real Voice" is. Both types of voices come & are generated by the same person.
2) To get to high pitches like S.G.Kittappa which were considered desireable at least in the days without amplification & higher pitches tend to propagate further etc. As a matter of fact THE LEGENDARY CARUSO himself had certain techniques which he had developed- it has been described in books etc- which enabled him to do what he did on stage & certainly it was not his"Natural Voice" in the sense that was the voice with which he would address his non-stage situations. One can see why because enormous EFFORT as well as TECHNIQUE based on practice is needed to generate the music to the best he can.
False voices fortunately are not needed in Classical Carnatic Music tho' some critics have observed Late Great Maharajapuram Santhanam with using false voice etc. I feel such criticisms are superficial as well as not correct as it is not obvious what is false and what is true voice, Ultimately it is the sruti alignment &swarasthanam which appeal to even a lay listener & I submit cine singers are better in this regard than many classical vocalists especially now a days. vkv

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Mar 2008, 00:43

Good points VKV. Extending your point but in the opposite direction, the legendary classisist and traditionalist Sri. MDR may be said to have sung in a 'false' voice since his normal speaking voice is a kattai or so higher than his singing voice. (His lec-dem is the evidence for that.) And we all know that there is nothing 'false' about MDR.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 31 Mar 2008, 00:51

Dear Vasanthakokilam,
In a lighter vein what if the kattai is higher or lower between friends?!......You have made the point better than I am capable of. Do you teach how to be concise & precise?. I certainly would attend such a course!...vkv

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 31 Mar 2008, 04:36

VKV,
Surely, you scientists do a lot better than some of us! and VK is a pro at that.
As for M. Santhanam, it was more 'crooning' than singing in a false voice, I would think. May be it came across as such because of his powerful voice which was quite a contrast to the mellow effect he was after?

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 31 Mar 2008, 06:41

Dear Arasi,
I agee with your descrption M.S. "crooned" but I still would like to know what a false voice is? Every one else seems to know what it is....vkv

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 31 Mar 2008, 07:10

I think what people are referring to is the fact that the singing pitch is MUCH higher than the talking pitch. An example I know is Vani Jayaram - when she speaks (I think that this voice/pitch is assumed to be 'true'), the pitch is MUCH lower than her singing pitch (which is assumed to be 'false').

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 31 Mar 2008, 09:00

Dear rshankar,
Thanks very much for clarifying; Why should the talking pitch and the singing pitch be the same? Is it mandatory that they be the same?It looks like an arbitrary requirement to me.....
Various famous musicians esp. GNB used to sing at different kattais at different concerets & various parts of their career; MMI for example preferred to sing at a higher pitch when the accopmpanist was MSG. In general Vocalist tend to sing at lower sruthi at later years in their career. It appears to have very little effect on their ability to captivate & communicate. In cases like Vani Jayaram I suspect she was preserving her voice- I believe higher pitch requires more effort- for good reasons. vkv

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 31 Mar 2008, 12:03

The western classical 'voice' is something brought about by much training. Even popular artists who sing 'normally' may very well undergo training in diction, clarity, projection and breath control.

Isn't such training a part of Carnatic music also?

I know someone who used to sing very nicely, the only trouble was that you could not hear him from more than six feet away. His singing was great for his own meditation, but not much good for performance. He has been learning with TVG for some years now, and all that has changed; he has learnt how to sing with some strength, projection, and sing out to an audience.

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 31 Mar 2008, 18:12

nick H wrote:The western classical 'voice' is something brought about by much training. Even popular artists who sing 'normally' may very well undergo training in diction, clarity, projection and breath control.

Isn't such training a part of Carnatic music also?

I know someone who used to sing very nicely, the only trouble was that you could not hear him from more than six feet away. His singing was great for his own meditation, but not much good for performance. He has been learning with TVG for some years now, and all that has changed; he has learnt how to sing with some strength, projection, and sing out to an audience.

Systematic training in Carnatic music by which I mean the practice of teaching sarali, janta, sthayi, and thaatu varisais, is equivalent to practising the scales in Western Music. Alankarams are the practice of the various standard thalas (though the majority of those thalas are not used in practice) of which I dont know the equivalent in Western Music. Geethams are the introduction to ragas and note embellishment techniques which may be considered equivalent to primers used in Western Music (though I dont know if there is one standard in WM corresponding to the more or less standard set of geethams that everyone seems to learn in CM). Varnams are full-fledged pieces in their own right and I don't understand the logic of teaching varnams in CM _before_ keerthanas, the former can be quite long, complex, and formidable for the novice student.

Diction and clarity training vary from one school to the next. Some schools (the Dhanammal school for instance) are noted for paying minute attention to the actual curves of note embellishments. Other schools (notably some Andhra schools) are very particular about diction, splitting words correctly, and so on.

However I am not aware of *systematic* methods of teaching projection or breath control. The overwhelming method of teaching in these respects is simply imitation and each teacher approaches the question in their own way. Particular teachers may have ideas on how to create better voice for particular students but there does not seem to be a collection of such ideas or a syllabus of practice that would go towards building a systematic approach. I have never been to a music college : do the CM colleges that exist today have particular courses or exams for voice production? I think they only test your intellectual prowess but I may be mistaken.

I would be extremely interested to know if there are such schools in CM that have systematic methods for projection, range, and generally, voice mechanics. If someone can say more about what TVG teaches for voice projection and strength, please do so. That would be valuable information indeed.

-Then Paanan

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 31 Mar 2008, 21:10

Thank you, that is fascinating. On the one hand, I am amazed that so many singers sound as good as they do, and on the other I am sadly not surprised at the dependence on the microphone of carnatic performers.

Some carnatic performers have really strong voices that seem to come from deep within their chests; I had always assumed that this was a matter of training. I've noticed that weaker teachers tend to have weaker-sounding students, and, of course, the opposite.

I've noticed too that some have a slightly nasal back-of-the-throat delivery; again I'd thought this down to the training of their particular school.

I guess I've misinterpreted a lot. But I guess one has to do some learning, before one can really appreciate what's going on, and, of course, that I have never done.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 31 Mar 2008, 21:26

does nick mean to say that WM singers are mic independent. what I have observed mostly is they chose to sing in those days in a perfect ambience for music and a hall structure perfect for musical performances. especially the opera.

Unfortunately, you dont find that here in Carnatic. they sing every where ..in temple. ,in a school class room. ,
in marriages amidst the cacophonous conversations, even in the roads with a small pandal where the vehicleas pass by,

but comparatively HM performance are more choosy and strict about the place they perform .

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 Apr 2008, 00:17

Not at all, G_M, not at all. I meant that remark in isolation, not in comparison.

It's true that our world would have to be a little more ideal before we could do away with the mic --- the audiences would have to learn to shut up, for a start!

I'm sure also that there are pro arguments; maybe if a singer doesn't have to work so hard just to be heard, they can put more into the subtlety of their performance.

It is a big subject, amplification, its pros, cons and quality. We've done it in other threads; I'm sure we'll do it again, but I certainly didn't mean to derail this thread by mentioning it.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 01 Apr 2008, 12:40

Dear nick and all ,

Actually the word false voice was not coined by me , it is been around for some time and we continue to use it since i think there is no equivalent to it . let me knwo if there is one for that .

Actually, I bought a varnam teaching CD somtime back for my cousins where the teacher asks the students to give up using false voices. ( and of course I have heard it a few other times also . ) / The equivalent fo this in tamil is Kalla kural .

Ask any fairer sex to sing a song ( those not carnatic trained ) amd u would notice that they take off with a shrill voices and the prevailing idea is singing in shrill voice is sweeter for the general public. the more shrill the more sweeter ( actually the more irritating) this shrill voice as the ideal voice by virtue of cinema influence.

My athai woudl sing any song in shrill voice alone and takes pride to say that is how her voice is . ( god given shrill voices)

I think by now I have thrown some light about my esoteric term FALSE VOICE.

compare these 2 songs by susheela one sung in 1949 and another 18 years later and listen for yourself the the shift in pitch . it has actually raised where in the place it has to lower by age.

( incidentally , I love susheela's voice and hence you can understand my idea that i am not trying to comment derogatory of their voices but only trying to say that there exists 2 completely different voices and one is not natural but artificially kept alive even as one ages . )

listen to these 2 songs of susheela the first of which sung in 1949 and the other 18 years later. the pitch has gone up actually.

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/q4m ... As1NMvHdW/

http://www.raaga.com/playerV31/index.as ... 664&bhcp=1

These are by Lata Mangeshkar.

the following was sung in 1949.

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/_5I ... As1NMvHdW/

the following was sung around 70. this is my all time favorite of lata ( Nick sure shoudl listen to this once whether he likes it or not)

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/-qf ... As1NMvHdW/

this was sung in 1995 that is 46 years after her first hit . but she takes strain to keep the pitch higher . It is for popular demand and they have to struggle as they age.

http://www.raaga.com/playerV31/index.as ... 078&bhcp=1

( end note: if you ask me, though I feel that this is an artificial voice I liked and listened to many of them . they manage d to emulate so well without any strain to the listeners ears. but I am afraid, these days female play back singers mostly sing in ear piercing shrill voices sometimes. Lacks the versatality of Janaki or Lata or susheela.

by the by some body if you find time please try to find what raaga this cine song is . a lovely song.

http://www.raaga.com/playerV31/index.as ... 259&bhcp=1

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 01 Apr 2008, 19:25

shrilled and or muffled may be two other terminologies for kalla kural

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Apr 2008, 20:40

And 'poik kural' for 'kaLLak kural' has been in use too.

cooldudesaksham · Post by **cooldudesaksham** » 01 Jul 2008, 22:56

I dont know much about singers of the south, for I'm basically from the north, but from my exposure, S Janaki and Vani Jairam use head voice and falsetto much more often than their northern counterparts.
About Asha and Lata, its not that they never use falsetto/ head voice. Nor is it that they always use it. One thing that is certain is that Asha uses it much much more often than Lata, who resorts to head voice or falsetto very very rarely (something like 1 in 5000). Lata had a better upper range than Asha, which is a well known fact!

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 02 Jul 2008, 07:43

I always when I was younger wondered that Y there exists 2 type of voices for female.
There are many types of voices. Even the shruti alone varies quite a bit â€” just like among men. Not many men sing at MDR's pitch for example. (I can't even sing his Shadjamam without difficulty.)

One so thin and another flat. I thought the ladies with thin voices opted cinema and the flatter voices opted classical music.
In Carnatic music, there isn't so much stress on natural pitch and other voice characteristics, as long as you have control over more than two octaves â€” regardless of where the two octaves start measuring from.

But higher-pitched voices tend to be preferred in movies especially for females â€” the extent of this preference has varied over time, but it's always been there.

False voice always existed or was it post 50????. y shoudl female play back singers always sing in false voice? y a good and sweet voice has 2 norms , one for cinema and one for classical singing.
Please write "why".

No, it is not false voice that playback singers sing with. It is virtually impossible to sing for minutes together on a "false voice".

It maybe that film music has chosen higher-pitched singers preferrably, but it chooses NATURALLY high-pitched singers. No one is made to sing artificially unless the situation of the song in the movie calls for it. For example, singing for a child.
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And like nick H says, this preferrence could originate out of there being many more instruments in film music, and some of these instruments may have very limited pitch range, so the singer's voice needs to fit in.

cooldudesaksham · Post by **cooldudesaksham** » 02 Jul 2008, 11:52

No, it is not false voice that playback singers sing with. It is virtually impossible to sing for minutes together on a "false voice".

This aint true! Sunidhi Chauhan has sung many songs in a false voice, solos and duets. While performing live too....

It maybe that film music has chosen higher-pitched singers preferrably, but it chooses NATURALLY high-pitched singers. No one is made to sing artificially unless the situation of the song in the movie calls for it. For example, singing for a child.

Many a times, it is to match upto the male co-singer's scale. Otherwise, the composer wants the singer to sing the song in the scale which he had imagined while composing it. Sunidhi naturally has a heavy, husky voice apt for item numbers and fast, disco songs. Her false voice is thinner and thus, 'sweeter,' apt for romatic numbers.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 02 Jul 2008, 13:47

oops this topic has revived again. a bone of contention. it shows more the love and craving for the singers than analysing notions. ok at least people who say that it is natural voice of female singers . can you at least accept to the fact that pitch lowers as you age. y has it never lowered for female singers ever . probably they are exceptional mortals gifted to sing in the same pitch from 20 to 80.gosh. listen to some of the music india links that I have given links to compare. I have listened to kuch na kaho ( 1942 a love story) of lata mangeshkar where she sings in screaching voice where she has to match young manisha. lata fans excuse. when they try to sing with the same high pitch when they dotage it is awkward. excuse my language.

quite often children at home ask " why that akka singing has such a old voice" . Jiya jale for preeti zinta in dil se and konja konja neram in shivaji for nayan tara are 2 instances where kids got those doubts. singers struggling to match the voice of those 20+ heroines. probably kids cannot understand and extol anything legendary singers do.