sarangi for carnatic?

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 01 Apr 2008, 12:51

I wish we had adopted sarangi too for carnatic music as much as violin. Every time I listen to the sound of Sarangi it is almost like someone singing. Was there anyone playing carnatic sarangi. Y has it escaped the experimental hands of carnatic.

Mandolin , sax, guitar and even clarinet I have listened to . and even key board.

but Y no sarangi . greatly reproduces singing.

I thnk someone shoudl give life to sarangi with carnatic sounds.

I wish I were younger. Sadly I am old .

shadjam · Post by **shadjam** » 01 Apr 2008, 13:14

Isn't Dilruba adopted from Sarangi? I think they are similar in structure and use. Angamali Jose is famous for using Dilruba in carnatic music.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 01 Apr 2008, 13:25

I am afraid ., i have nto heard dilruba or anamali jose.

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 01 Apr 2008, 14:11

angamali jose was a permnanent artist of AIR, Tiruchi, the name angamali conjectures a picture of very holy Kaladi. sarangi was not used in even in tamil films,or hindi films. only OPNayyar used it for some of his memorable songs,which I am not able to recollect at once. probably coolkarni can help
me .. gobilalitha

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 01 Apr 2008, 14:31

i constantly listen to a jugalbandi of sarangi and Mandolin by mandolin srinivasan in dharmavati.

if someone wants the link i ll search and let you know this enening.

kalgada78 · Post by **kalgada78** » 01 Apr 2008, 16:34

Here is a piece by Angamali Jose.

http://rapidshare.com/files/104012639/0 ... a.mp3.html

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 01 Apr 2008, 19:46

ganesh_mourthy wrote:I wish we had adopted sarangi too for carnatic music as much as violin. Every time I listen to the sound of Sarangi it is almost like someone singing. Was there anyone playing carnatic sarangi. Y has it escaped the experimental hands of carnatic.

The answer I suspect is more anthropological than anything musical.
The sarangi in the course of its evolution ran into some serious image issues - it came to be strongly identified with dancing girls, mehfils and tawaifs. This association became so problematic so much that several Sarangi players had to resort to vocal to be taken seriously amidst the cognoscenti. That being the case in the North, one can imagine the 17-18th Century Carnatic nose crinkling at the very thought of such an immoral instrument being introduced. Perhaps the blank slate of the Western violin seemed more acceptable than the Sarangi. More so since the swarabat (played by Baluswami Dikshitar, Swati Tirunal etc) and dilruba were all there and in use. hmm If only Baluswami had listened to Bundu Khan

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 01 Apr 2008, 21:38

The biggest bear that has to be tackled by Carnatic instrumentalists is sAhitya.

In sahitya, the consontants (opposite of vowel, not the musical term

) present a challenge to instrumentalists. The pluck offers great scope for consonants in the vina and chitravina. By suitable "thu-thukaaram" consonants can be brought out in the flute. By breaking the bowing and/or fingering techniques, it can be brought out to some extent on the violin but it is still a little more amorphous than the plucked instuments or the flute. I'm no violinist or sAranga player but I've fooled around with both at various times and I think the sAranga owing to its unweildy nature, does not offer scope for much "fingering" techniques or bow control. The fingers are essentially just a slide. So it's double jeopardy - no pluck like the chitravina nor any fingering like the violin.

Depending on the style/school even violinists play somewhat amorphous sAhitya. For example, listen to an old recording of Shri LS (love his violin playing by the way) playing Bhairavi varnam "viriboni ninne kori" - "....eeeeyyyeeeooooeeee,eeeyyyeeeooooeeee..."). Now sArangi would be even more amorphous than that.

Bottom line - sArangi is purely akaara. I think Baluswami Dikshitar must have recognized the merits of having fingers and more bow control with the violin over sarangi.

As much as sAranga is a quintessential Carnatic rAga (that hamir kalyani can never become), the sArangi is a quintessential Hindustani instrument

. This couple is incompatible.

Needless to say, I'm no expert and violinists and/or sarangi players may have a better take on this matter My opinion is lightly held and fully convertible like the rupee or the mazda miata.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 01 Apr 2008, 22:34

DEAR KALGADA ,

woudl I find more in the rapidshare. ? i like that actually , i mean the link that you have sent.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 01 Apr 2008, 22:41

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/j ... rtist.351/

this is a beautiful RTP in Dharmavati . a good combination of mandolin and Sarangi.

U.Srinivasan and Sultan Khan

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Apr 2008, 23:20

Amanda Weidman in her book "Singing the Classical, Voicing the Modern: The Postcolonial Politics of Music in South India" makes similar points to what Vidya has written. She also mentions that there are indications that Sarangi was in use in Carnatic circles only to find itself disappearing for anthropological and societal reasons.

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 02 Apr 2008, 00:46

Uday,
Your post makes sense in the context of a) Why the violin etc and why not Sarangi in Carnatic , but does not answer corollary b) Why swarabat, dilruba but not the Sarangi. There seem to have been quite a few other Swarabat players in the samasthanams, subdominions etc as well.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 02 Apr 2008, 02:21

vidya, I think the anthropological argument makes sense but here's a weak try at another alternative:

1) Swarabat and dilruba are fretted instruments
2) Fretted instruments are easier for beginners and occasional practitioners (dilettantes) to play some tunes without sounding too discordant
3) Kings and princes are often dilettantes hence preferred fretted instruments
5) Subjects followed their lead
6) Hence no sarod (which can be thought of as a fretless swarabat) or sArangi in south Indian courts

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Apr 2008, 03:19

Wonder why the harmonium (sometimes horror-monium) stayed on in the musical drama circuit and in bhajanai groups while the sArangi didn't make it in the south.
As for the sArangi in CM concerts as an accompaniment, I have my reservations. Is it fast enough and can it respond to the nuances of the sangatis and complicated tALA patterns? Of course, I don't deny that it would sound more emotive than a scratchy violin. Still....

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 02 Apr 2008, 08:47

Sarangi has its own flipside. but it can be more emotive than any plucking instrument or a wind instrument. probably even better than a Violin.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 02 Apr 2008, 10:29

I dont know what Uday shankar means by amorphous . May be a flute and Veena have more perfect pitches. but has its own limitations.

The veena is more resonant , hence more gamakam sound. very apt for tanam playing . the consummate instument for tanam . but does nto go with the voice really though it was used those days. the human singing is very different from veena . . Chitraveena is more closer to voice or singing and emotive like voice since it has more sliding and still there is some plucking.

But another limittaion is veena is its speed. Say for instance veena cannot be an instrument for playing the speed that L.Subramanium reaches to play the ninnu kori varnam. You cannot make brighas in Veena like in a Flute. there are many limitations for veena.

Now for flute , one cannot play gamakams in flute like in veena . the meend of veena and violin will also be missing in flute. playing a tanamin in a flute is never as succulent and vibrationg as in a Veena.

Hence Violin has been the consummate instrument for the past many decades fpr accompanying.
A skilled hand can greatly reproduce the brighas and gamakams of voices. the speed. etc.

if Uday shankar complains of amorphous then none of the above insturment is good. the only best is keyboard or harmonium which does not even need tuning. but the output ? emotive???

Sarangi is good except the bow control is not there as in violin.

vk · Post by vk » 03 Apr 2008, 17:34

sarangi is indeed extremely emotive. I am reminded of the movie songs in umrao jaan. But i dont know how it would sound if carnatic ragas were to be played on it.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Apr 2008, 00:13

Sarangi has a wonderful sound. In my mind I think of slow, plaintive melody, and I also think of repetitive Lehera sounding almost mesmerising.

Am I right in thinking that it has very thick strings under considerable tension, thus making it a physically difficult and painful instrument to learn and play.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 04 Apr 2008, 01:24

nick H wrote:plaintiff melody, .

Nick,

I guess you meant plaintive..

I do not think that we have a case here for plaintiffs and defendants, or do we?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Apr 2008, 02:44

I think I was born to be a lawyer.

What odd tricks the brain plays!!!

Funny thing is I even needed the spell checker to get the wrong word right! Thanks; I'd better hit that edit button.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 04 Apr 2008, 02:46

Lol!!!

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 04 Apr 2008, 08:07

is there an option to edit what you have written already? my eyes tricking me ?

I see PLAINTIVE MELODY written by nick .

And Y shoudl rshankar make amendments ?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 04 Apr 2008, 08:46

rshankar made a joke about it and Nick edited it afterwards. See the time when Ravi posted and the time when Nick edited.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 04 Apr 2008, 09:22

someone tell me .

how to edit?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Apr 2008, 10:11

Look at bottom right of posts.

For other people's posts you see Report | Quote

For Your own posts you see Report | Edit | Quote

The clue is in the word 'Edit'

I rest my case

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Apr 2008, 11:32

ganesh_mourthy : I want to know how to edit
Nick, the lawyer: You want answers?
ganesh_mourthy : I think I'm entitled.
Nick: You want answers?
ganesh_mourthy : I want the truth!
Nick: You can't handle the truth!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Apr 2008, 14:44

I wish now we could return to the lovely plaintive sound of Sarangi

Let me ask again if I am right in thinking that it is a more than usually painful instrument to learn and play?

... If the witnesses will please answer the question!

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 04 Apr 2008, 15:24

No, actually it is not as plaintive as we have been projecting it thoughout this thread.

It can suit any mood. go to musicindiaonline and listen for yourself some of the audio clips/

there are many in the you tube also. just type sarangi .

By the by , I think Nick is showing great interest . Do you want to learn Sarangi, Nick?

I wish there is someone to teach me

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 04 Apr 2008, 20:15

ganesh mourthy, I agree with most your previous post except the following statement:

Sarangi is good except the bow control is not there as in violin.

That's incomplete. There is also no "finger" control in saarangi. You need both. In the saarangi, pretty much some two fingers (typically the pointer and middle finger) are used to slide up and down the board. Thus "crispness" of sangatis is compromised. I think you need one of the following for crispness a) pluck (vina and chitravina) b) thuthukaram (flute) c) a combination of fingering and bowing (violin).

This doesn't mean I don't like the saarangi or that I think good music cannot be produced on it. I just though experimenters like Baluswamy Dikshitar must have preferred the violin over it for these reason.

The plaintiff rests his case and plaintively begs that this does not devolve into a "plain tiff".

My last post

.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Apr 2008, 23:30

No! I do not want to learn sarangi --- just to enjoy it when it should come my way

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 05 Apr 2008, 02:37

Uday,
People who are fond of tiffs are not looking for plain tiffs. They like spicy ones:)

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 05 Apr 2008, 03:21

from classical to cine to mosquitto - besh

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 05 Apr 2008, 03:26

VKR,
We are still with the sounds of sArangi. I suppose you meant to post in the other (insect in concerts) thread!

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 05 Apr 2008, 06:13

in the forum discussions, both valuable and not so valuables are discussed. T.o get a little respite from the issues of serious substsnce, people resort to some sort of fun, in their postswithout being obscene or hurting others feelings. I am one such indulging in appuswami seetha patti(courtesybhagyam ramaswami, contributing in kumudam and ananda vikatan) type of humour. I request members to bear up with me gobilalitha

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Apr 2008, 08:02

no tiffs here, Arasi.. people like contradictions and it is healthy as far as it is not hurting. to be considerate is something one has to take care in here.

People see life differently. Artiste and decorum was an instance. Of course, I have to voice my opinion.

but , since healthy debates are seen as tiffs , I think , I better keep mum ,

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 05 Apr 2008, 08:15

It was all in jest, g_m. We kid around a bit here. This kind of banter is not meant to be taken seriously. We are all for healthy debates, by the way...

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Apr 2008, 08:35

I told that in jest too.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Apr 2008, 10:44

Tiff? what tiff?

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Apr 2008, 12:34

whariff???/

See , Nick is oblivious of these tiffs. He just wants serious stuffs

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Apr 2008, 13:21

Indeed.

So I shall move on to the delightful prospect of flower girls playing the sarangai

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Apr 2008, 13:24

flower girls woudl carry flower and they dont play sarangi.

by the by did anyone try to listen to the musicindiaonline.com link that I have posted earlier.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 05 Apr 2008, 18:02

Nick,

As a 'wanna-be' lawyer, you should be interested in the 't(ar)iffs' these 'tiffs' can generate, and not just any odd 'stuffs'!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 05 Apr 2008, 20:29

How are we to establish that we are not a 'tiff'ing lot when levity reigns or a jest is supposed to be just 'joke' oriented? What if we do Monty Python's funny walk (oh no, not snakes again!) to identify ourselves as RasikAs instead of wearing teeny badges? That would be the day!

Hope this quip doesn't send shock waves and give people the jitters

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Apr 2008, 20:32

Hmmm, yes indeed.

There's my hourly charge, plus of course the daily flower bill

And by the way, although, like music, it always interested me, and was a one-time ambition, I never was a lawyer!

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Apr 2008, 20:55

I think quite many edit what they say .

quite often I see last edited. I wish , I am able to see what do they write and later edit before I log in.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Apr 2008, 23:05

But we *only* do it when you're not looking!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 06 Apr 2008, 01:03

Sarangi is a good instrument no doubt, but we are indeed fortunate that the violin has become ubiquitous in CM, thanks mainly to the Dikshitars and their disciples.

http://showtimemagazine.ca/blog/?p=120

The violin is a smooth, versatile, and sophisticated instrument. In this era of generally uninspiring vocalization in CM (of the "sweat-blood-and-produce-rubbish" variety), the violin in many ways provides a saving grace and often redeems the classical nature of the performance. In this department CM certainly "scores" over HM. The unfortunate use of harmonium as accompaniment detracts from the generally high quality of HM vocalization. When listening to HM I sometimes have to fiddle with the filtering options on my receiver to try and get rid of the harmonium.

SR