Sri Kanthimatheem(Hemavathy) edduppu

KarnatikLover · Post by **KarnatikLover** » 08 Apr 2008, 11:31

Does it start at Sammam?

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 08 Apr 2008, 12:19

yeah it does

Karnaticfan · Post by **Karnaticfan** » 08 Apr 2008, 12:30

Yes. The eduppu throughout the kriti is samam(commencement of lyrics and talam takes place at the beginning of the Aadi Thalam), be it Pallavi or Samashti Charanam.

ParadEvate (DhanyAsi), AkhilAndEshwari (DwijAvanthi) of 2 kaLai Aadi Thalam, composed by MD are having Sama Eduppu. In fact most (to a great extent) of MD's 2 kaLai kritis are having sama eduppu throughout the kritis.

KarnatikLover · Post by **KarnatikLover** » 09 Apr 2008, 05:11

Thanks!

maithree · Post by **maithree** » 10 Apr 2008, 09:24

I was once told by a music scholar that all Dikshithar krithis are supposed to begin in samam. Any deviation from this does not conform to the sampradayam.

Any scholars around who can clarify this ?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Apr 2008, 20:44

maithree wrote:I was once told by a music scholar that all Dikshithar krithis are supposed to begin in samam. Any deviation from this does not conform to the sampradayam.

That sounded very broad. So I checked the volume 1 of SSP - that would be a firm indicator of sampradayam. Overwhelming (i dont have the %, but probably > 90%) # of dIkshitar krithis in Vol 1 are indeed in samam. But there are 3 which are not (i.e as notated in SSP):
1. kRSnAnanda mukunda - gaudipantu
2. cintatamAkandamUlakandam - bhairavi
3. ranganAyakam - nAyaki

So I would say to that the conclusion is incorrect. But one can see why someone may lean towards it. If Vol 1 is an indicator, it does seem like almost all his krithis begin in samam.

Arun

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 10 Apr 2008, 20:48

For Sri Krishnam in Thodi, swarams and nirval are usually taken at a 1 edapu

maithree · Post by **maithree** » 11 Apr 2008, 09:42

Arun,

Thanks a lot for the clarification.

KarnatikLover · Post by **KarnatikLover** » 12 Apr 2008, 00:54

What about Meenakshi Memudham? I think it starts after 1 beat as well

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Apr 2008, 05:26

I have not seen any notation for 'Meenakshi Memudham' but the MSS rendition starts on the samam. The niraval line 'Madura Puri' is 1/2 beat later from samam ( in 2 kaLai beat duration ).

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 12 Apr 2008, 05:31

VK- you are absolutely correct. It starts in samam in most modern versions.
But, MSS does not sing it in 2 kalai usually, no?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Apr 2008, 05:40

It looks like it is samam in SSP

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Apr 2008, 05:43

mahavishnu: I really do not know how to tell deterministically if something is 2 kaLai or not just by listening. There are some clues I use. The one usual clue is that it has a very relaxed tempo from a laya point of view ( which at best is a heuristic since someone can really sing a 2 kaLai song in a fast pace ). In this case, there is another strong clue. The Nirval line, Madura Puri Nilaye, the major stress is on 'Ye' and if you map that as the beginning of the 5th beat of the Adi thala ( like the arudhi in an RTP Pallavi ), then it becomes a 2 kaLai. It is nicely balanced with the 'ye' as the fulcrum, rhythmically.

Arun had stated before that typically a line of sahitya fits in an avarthana of the thalam. Not a golden rule to be strictly followed but another clue.

Also, if you keep a 2 kaLai song to 1 kaLai, stress points may not align properly and there will be some rough edges.

If anyone can educate us on what other things to feel to tell if something is in 2 kaLai, without looking at notations or clues from mridangist, that will be very useful.

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 12 Apr 2008, 06:27

I think 99% of musicians perform that song in 2-kalai, but it's not mathematically incorrect to sing it in one kalai

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Apr 2008, 06:34

mri_fan, are you referring to the way the artist keeps the thalam and not how they perform the song?

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 12 Apr 2008, 10:16

yeah, sorry for the vagueness. i meant keeping the talam

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 12 Apr 2008, 12:26

Just to add to the non-edapu songs I could remember

Annapoorne (Sama)

Akshaya Linga Vibho (Shank)

Sri Mathrabootham (Kannada) (the anupallavi, charam)

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 12 Apr 2008, 14:41

The pallavi of Cintaye mahalinga moortim (paraz) starts after 1/2 aksharam

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 12 Apr 2008, 18:28

mri_fan: Are you sure Akshaya linga vibho has samam eduppu?
I think the syllable "bho" was supposed to coincide with saman, in which case it would be 1/2 eduppu....

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Apr 2008, 21:34

Mahavishnu: I think mri_fan is also saying Akshya Linga Vibho is a non-samam eduppu.

In Misra chapu things get a bit more interesting. "(tha ki ta ) (tha ka) (dhi mi)"...The 'bho' of vibho is on the 'tha" of the "tha ka" and that puts the beginning on the "dhi" of "dhi mi". That will make the eduppu 1 beat before samam or 1.5 beat after samam. ( again, this is not based on any notations, just by feel. It will be good to get a verification from notations ).

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 12 Apr 2008, 23:04

VK, thanks. That makes sense now.

Sri Mathrubootham (again without notations) sounds like it starts with samam, but chintaye in the next line is 1/2 eduppu before. Of course all this is all speculative.

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 13 Apr 2008, 00:08

maha,

The pallavi is samam, but the anupallavi and charanam start off samam for Sri mathrubootham

tmohan · Post by **tmohan** » 26 Apr 2008, 16:20

MSS sings " mInAkShi me mudam dehi" in 2 kaLai but her "saroja daLanetri " is in 1 kaLai. This also has its fulcrum or arudi at 'tri'. However nirval or kalpanasvaram is not done at this place- hence still okay.

The only way to determine kaLais is just to follow the tALa from the beginning to the end, including tani Avartanam. By doing this we can get very good control over tALa, laya , the pulses etc.

Rendering songs of 2 kaLai in 1 kaLai is only to reduce the singing of long svara phrases/korvais. That is why we sing songs in triputa tALa in mishra cApu, those in tishra rUpakam or jampa tALa in kanDa cApu.

Regards
Mohan

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 26 Apr 2008, 17:36

tmohan,

how do you know that she renders sara saroja daLanetri " in 1 kaLai

my understanding is that she sings it at 2, based on the UN recording (at an edapu after 1 beat of adi tal, or 2 half beats, or 4 aksharams, depending on how you see it!)

just to add, in my experience the only time people EVER change the kalai of a song is in a pallavi, and the occasional varnam, but NEVER in a krithi...is this what others have noticed?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Apr 2008, 19:38

I find it useful to keep in mind the following in such cases: Laya is the same, thala may be different ( 2 kaLai vs 1 kaLai, triputa tALa vs mishra cApu etc. ).

tmohan · Post by **tmohan** » 28 Apr 2008, 13:41

mri-fan,

The song starts with the tALa, not after a beat.

Pl. carefully follow her niraval or kalpana svarAs(KS). The KS is at "sAma gAna vinodini" The interval between any two "sAma gAna vinodini" should be 8 akSharAs . There are some phrases where the edUppu is after 4 aKSharAs itself, corrsponding to 8 akSharas for 1 kaLai i.e one complete cycle which is alright . The same has been the case for the same song in some other recording.

"sama gAna vinodini" starts at pancamam. In the UN version, she creates her one sangati at tAra Shadjam as svarAKSharam. However, in the other recording, she starts in the pancamam only.

Regards
Mohan

ps: The tALa of many compositions in CM are something beyond just mathematics. So I don't feel comforatable if songs like "shankari shankuru candramukhi " are rendered in tisra gati Adi tAlam instead of rUpaka tALam. Perfect " takadimi " alligns with the pallavi. Still the caraNam gives scope for the tisra gati .

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 29 Apr 2008, 21:45

in sarojadalanetri, every line starts on samam only...