singing with eyes closed....

carnaticpriya · Post by **carnaticpriya** » 14 Apr 2008, 21:57

My 9 year old child sings eyes closed with mild facial expressions and hand gestures.We get mixed responses when she performs on stage like this with eyes closed . Some advice not to sing this way and some ask to leave her the way she is.She feels , she is more focused when her eyes are closed and messes up and swallows a lot when i force her to sing with open eyes.Any suggestions?

shishya · Post by **shishya** » 14 Apr 2008, 22:12

carnaticpriya,

Until we hear from our vidwan members, here are my two cents. Singing with eyes closed is okay initially but if it becomes a habit during performances, it can distance her from the audience as there will be no eye contact. I am not talking about closing ones eyes while engrossed in music, but about closing eyes in order to focus.

I try to make my students to find a focal object that is straight ahead of them that they can look at while singing- such as a crease on the curtain or wall.

Alternately for students who cannot absolutely focus with their eyes open, I have asked them to close their eyes until they think they are ready to focus.

Singing with closed eyes can be beneficial initially but should not become a habit. It is one of the gAyaka dOshas.

Since your daughter is comfortable singing with her eyes closed, one way to wean her off the habit is to place her favorite toy or something in front of here and ask her to pretend that she is singing to her toy and ask her to focus on the eyes of her toy. If a toy doesn't work out, try a painting and use an object in the painting as a focal object.

My daughter used to keep a picture of baby Krishna in front of her to focus ... but it was more of a security blanket for her- that Krishna will help her sing her best. She has subsequently given up looking at the picture but as she thinks that Krishna is in her mind and still helps her sing well.

carnaticpriya · Post by **carnaticpriya** » 14 Apr 2008, 22:34

Shishya,

Thanks a lot for these wonderful hints. I am going to try that at home. The problem is only on stage when she gets too anxious.I truly believe that in addtion to wanting to focus and getting engrossed in music, her anxiety plays an equal role in making her close her eyes. The rendering is very neat when her eyes are closed and not up to standards with opened eyes. can you please advice what can be done in cases like this?

mahesh3 · Post by **mahesh3** » 14 Apr 2008, 23:04

I dont quite agree with the audience reasoning. Pithukuli murugadas is either 1/2 blind or fully blind, and I havent seen him be accused of not reaching out to his audience. Same with MC. Nevertheless, my point of view is that it is more important for a student to sing properly and learn the correct techniques of singing (with eyes closed or open) rather than prepare himself/herself professionally at this age. Today, most kids seem to be already trained in stage etiquette and all the other "quack" gimmicks, but most cant sing even the basics properly.

Carnaticpriya, my two cents is to just let your child be. In due time, all will be fine. It is more important to be natural in the learning stage....is my point of view.

shishya · Post by **shishya** » 14 Apr 2008, 23:05

carnaticpriya,

Making her focus on an external object will divert her from the anxiety. I would suggest giving her a small picture she can focus on. It's like creating white noise to block out regular noise. Although you should probably realize that most kids are anxious when asked to sing in public or in competitions, they just have to outgrow it and gain confidence I guess. Another thing to do is practice the piece many times like 20-30 times at least before singing it in public. That way she would have gotten very comfortable with the piece and will eventually at the end of 200th time or so will become second nature. There is simply no substitute for repetition. Be it Pattammal amma or Dr. Suzuki they all echo the same thing... practice, practice, practice.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Apr 2008, 23:11

Just an audience-member's thoughts from me...

There's a difference between singing for oneself and singing to an audience.

I've mentioned recently, in another thread, a friend of mine who sang beautifully ---to himself, and if you were more than six feet away you didn't get to hear. He has been TVG's student for a while and now sings out to his audience.

It's about communication: we need to see the eyes. A moment of reverie is ok, but only a moment. Its also about seeing that the singer has confidence, and is not put off by an audience.

Does she have a desire to sing to other people? There is nothing at all wrong with singing for oneself, but, if the answer is 'yes', then practice, confidence, practice, confidence...

If you will forgive the question: is she proceeding to the stage at her pace? or at her parents' or teacher's pace. Maybe she is just not ready yet. At nine, there are plenty of years ahead.

shishya · Post by **shishya** » 14 Apr 2008, 23:17

Mahesh3,

I respect your views on letting the child be and also on your point about connecting with the audience. I have myself advised some of my students to close their eyes in order to be able to focus better. Closing eyes is like a helping hand. She will need to learn to weane off of it sooner or later. I was just suggesting some tools for this. In the case of visually challenged, I would agree with you but it doesn't hurt to imbibe a good stage presence - assuming that the basics are well grounded. Carnaticfan mentioned that his/ her daughter can sing well with her eyes closed, which means that she has her basics right. Now maybe he/she can work on the easthetics of performance. Note that when I say performance, it need not be in a sabha, - it maybe singing for your own sake or for the Lord.

Once she gets used to singing with eyes closed for 5 years, it maybe very difficult to unlearn that habit.

Another point is that as we all know that when God closes a door, He opens another one. In case of visuall challenged musicians, we have heard of extraordinary capabilities. Maybe it is these capabilities that allow them to connect with their audience. Having said that, most musicians do close their eyes when they sing but in a general parlance they don't "have to" close their eyes in order to be able to sing - which seems to be the concern for carnaticfan's daughter. I hope you appreciate the difference.

manvantara · Post by **manvantara** » 15 Apr 2008, 01:10

carnaticpriya, as nick asks, is she proceeding to the stage at her pace? I think that if you bring up this issue, it might become all the more problematic for her and it might be best to leave it aside for some time.
Back when I was in school, when I used to attend vocal classes, I used to be terribly shy the moment my parents told someone I was learning and asked me to sing! I would refuse and the more my parents asked me to, the more I'd withdraw, until they gave up completely, which put me at ease. I'd practice nicely at home and my parents were fine with that. It took me quite some time to sing in front of others.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 15 Apr 2008, 01:45

All the above posts have good suggestions:
Let her focus on something to divert her from looking at all the people in the audience.
Let her practice all she can.
Let her learn at her own pace, and feel confident before she gets on the stage--and, does she want to?
My question is: what does she think? If she says she is afraid that they would criticize her singing, ask her again. Does she want to take more time before she gets on the stage? If she is ready, would any of the above suggestions appeal to her that she would try them? I
am assuming she loves music and loves to sing. But does she like to perform? If so, does she think she is ready? Is she willing to practice rigorously so that she would be confident to sing before so many people?
She is only nine!
Many seasoned singers close their eyes every now and then when they get immersed in the music or when they are concentrating. We as rasikAs do it too. Constant closing of the eyes can make the concert a dull affair for the listeners. Our closing our eyes may signal to the performer that we are dozing off!
My personal experience last season.: He was very good in his singing. I was enjoying the concert, but after a while, I got tired listening to him. Yes, he had his eyes closed during most of the performance!

carnaticpriya · Post by **carnaticpriya** » 15 Apr 2008, 04:17

arasi,shishya,nick and others,

i have spoken to my child a lot about all these. She is not sure if she likes to sing for herself or others.All she knows is that she just LOVES to sing and likes it when people appreciate her at the end .She is a very matured child who welcomes every song with immense interest and learns and tries to perfect it to 100%.Her teacher is very supportive and feels getting her on stage few times a year is only going to help her get over her anxiety.She gets to sing on stage just 5 or 6 times a year and most of the time it is not more than couple of songs.We have been very careful not to push her beyond this..My daughter says her only hope is to sing the way she sings at home on stage too.She feels she can manage to do that by letting her be herself and she does feel pressurized when people suggest that she can't sing with closed eyes..

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 15 Apr 2008, 04:56

Carnaticpriya:

Kudos to your daughter. Let her be herself.

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 15 Apr 2008, 05:49

Another practice of some of the singers is to swing their heads too much .many vidwans are famous for this habit. Is it a physical necessity, gobilalitha

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 15 Apr 2008, 05:53

Let her close her eyes and sing. When she is older and more confident she will be able to change this practice on her own!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Apr 2008, 07:19

Carnaticpriya, The clearest description of the goal has already been stated by your daughter when she said "hope is to sing the way she sings at home on stage too". This is a common problem for almost everyone, not just for her. So she can relax realizing that it is a more or less universal reaction to "feel" different in a stage setting in front of all those people. She herself has adopted this method of closing her eyes.. good for her.

That is her own solution and she is in a comfort zone that way. Asking her to open her eyes without an alternate solution does not do any good. If there is an alternate solution, then her need to close her eyes may actually fade away.

One such alternate solution is a technique that is taught to Actors, Golf players and public speakers etc. It is to focus on the process rather than the end result. ( it does have a bit of Bagavad Gita vibe to it

). Actors are asked to focus on the little sub parts that go into the acting and not the final outcome, golf players are taught to focus on the 5 stages of the actual swing and not really on the final act of hitting the ball, public speakers are taught to focus separately on the very act of producing the modulations in the voice. Once the focus is on the process, your mind is busy with that and it does not have much bandwidth to worry about silly things like what the audience reaction is etc.

The task here is to figure out how to teach that or how does one learn to do that. Also I do not know how to translate that principle of 'process focus' to CM singing. especially for a young person like your daughter. I thought I will throw this in here so others can suggest ways on how to implement this principle in singing. You said she is quite mature and so may be you can think of a way to have her focus on the process. That may simply mean for her to be more aware of her singing and remove some of the automatic elements so her focus is on the very act of singing rather than the environment. As an out of the box idea, if you give her an in-ear monitor so she can hear herself better, would that make a difference? That is relatively easy enough to try the next time. Talk to the sound people ahead of time before or after the main event.

I understand it is not a huge problem that needs solving but since this is a fairly common problem, I thought I will expand the scope a bit so everyone can benefit.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Apr 2008, 13:20

carnaticpriya, your subsequent post removes all worries from my mind! It sounds like your daughter has a lovely attitude to music, and that your support of that is wonderful.

Apart from the good, practical ideas people here have suggested, I'd say just to give time, plenty of time.

Her joy in singing is what counts the most

Member_First · Post by **Member_First** » 15 Apr 2008, 13:40

On the lighter side:

The rasikAs would sing ' pArvai onDRE pOdum'.

Serious side :

To have a mirror infront and see for actions while singing and try to correct wherever required

carnaticpriya · Post by **carnaticpriya** » 15 Apr 2008, 19:32

I have shared these great suggestions with my daughter. She wants to take some time before she can try what shishya has suggested , like focusing an object in the hall. Regarding,"process focus" that vasanthakokilam has suggested, she feels she probably is already doing it. (she is not sure though, but she says when she sings, she tries to remember to get every notes, tiny nuances and anuswarams right) - of course only with her eyes closed!

vasanthakokilam,
Is what she is doing is the process focus or it is much more?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 15 Apr 2008, 19:57

The very fact that so many on the forum are eager to help her with their suggestions is an encouraging thing to her, no doubt.
Yes, Nick. That she enjoys music--in singing and in listening to it is the most important thing. The quality of being a rasikA is the ultimate

mahesh3 · Post by **mahesh3** » 15 Apr 2008, 20:42

Another thing I commonly see is that parents r way too impatient to get results...endlessly talking into a child's ear is only going to make them ever more anxious, self-concious and mistake-prone. The best parents are those that enable.....again, its a case-by-case basis....some kids need only a nudge, others need a lot of forcing to learn carnatic music...but for the gifted ones - a small nudge there, an extra class there would help..however, complex analysis and pointed directions of simple daily occurences such as practice and sadhakam can be avoided. Carnaticpriya, not saying that you are one such parent but by your own descriptions, your child seems to be doing fine. Allow her to proceed at a leisurely pace, and you will be very happy with the long term outcome...Best!

Shishya, thanks for your comments. Your suggestions are probably more useful than mine in general, and not specifically to this case. In general, I was only sharing my views...I have absolutely no first-hand experience in this type of thing other than watching how my nephew learns and also watching the dynamics of kids and their parents in local music concerts in NJ. Most of the time, I think kids are much better behaved than their parents.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 15 Apr 2008, 20:53

'Most of the time, I think kids are much better behaved than their parents'.
Like some of the Little League parents...

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 15 Apr 2008, 22:14

nick H wrote:It's about communication: we need to see the eyes

I don't know about this. There are visually impaired rasikas who enjoy music just as there are visually impaired musicians who communicate just fine through their music.

Also, some musicians look anywhere but at the audience (the late S Balachander being a classic example), with no impact on the audience's ability to relate to their music.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Apr 2008, 23:48

Yes, I'm sure you are right, and after writing that I started to think that many accompanists concentrate on the main artist and barely look at the audience.

The blind, musician or audience, is a special case -- and we understand when we communicate with them, that that particular vector is unavailable.

Then, many halls are of sufficient size that we cannot see much of the eyes anyway.

I suppose, in my personal dream world, a concert audience consists of just a few people sitting close to the musicians in a small hall. But this is seldom possible, and of course I enjoy the more usual situations too.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 16 Apr 2008, 00:36

Such an interesting topic ! And so many wonderful responses.

Amongst present day musicians I think Bombay Jaishree closes her eyes while singing for long periods of time during her concerts. I think she sings fabulous whether eyes open or closed and it has never impacted me as a listener

I personally feel that the artist may be trying to target the perfect "swarasthanas" when singing with eyes closed. This maybe just a habit, like for example Krishna's gesticulations may put off some people but most would enjoy his music and music alone.

Overall I feel that maybe with a little bit of confidence the child would start singing more with eyes open rather than closed.

I would also suggest that as a parent you listen with your eyes closed. If all other things are in place,musically, then I would suggest that this "habit" is just a passover.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Apr 2008, 03:20

Ha ha, yes... there are artists whose music is wonderful but whose 'dance' I prefer not to see!

But, just as the brain can often make adjustments (some, at least) for a very imperfect sound system, it can also concentrate on the music and focus out the bits our very personal likes and dislikes would wish were not there.