Tambura/Sruti-box question

[ragam-talam]

Hope rasikas can help me resolve this question:
Normally the tambura/sruti-box is set to Sa-Pa-Sa (except for 'madhyama sruti', when Ma is set).
But is it right to have the Pa sound be present even while singing ragas that don't have panchama? e.g. Abhogi

[mohan]

Common practice is to turn off the Pa for these ragas so only the Sa is sounding. Some people use the Ma setting but this tends to create a madhyama sruthi effect.

[arunk]

I am not sure it is necessarily wrong in all cases (i.e. in response to "is it right") - but it can be distracting to some singers/instrumentalists. IMO, basically with the sa-pa-sa of tampura there is so much sustain and overlap that the combo in general reinforce the "sa" - as opposed to pa sounding like the odd man out in such cases.

Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

Arun: What you say is also reinforced by the fact that the 2nd harmonic of Pa is the 3rd harmonic of Sa, right?

By the same token, even if you do not sound Pa, the 3rd harmonic of Sa, if it has sufficient amplitude, will be heard as the second harmomic of Pa.

This is all theoretical, I do not know if people actually hear these or not. I can not hear these 'swayambu' swaras though I have not methodically tried to listen for them.

[ragam-talam]

Some people use the Ma setting but this tends to create a madhyama sruthi effect.

Would they set the Ma for pratimadhyama ragas that are Panchama varjyam.
I suppose this won't create the madhyama sruti effect?

[mohan]

Would they set the Ma for pratimadhyama ragas that are Panchama varjyam.

No they wouldn't. That's why the common practice is to omit Pa and Ma completely.

[arunk]

vk - yes that is what I meant.

It is indeed possible to hear these. Pa can be heard (when focused upon intentionally) with just sa setting. Also, G3 can be heard fairly prominently - in electronic tampura boxes with sa-pa-sa. I can pick out pa and ga. For others like R2, and D2, I am not sure but i know what the combined effect (resonant effect?) of my voice+tampura *should* sound if I am hitting them correctly as I sing the note with the sruthi box on. Then if stop, I think I hear the "residual" sound in the tampura. But then it could be all my imagination But I do know others (e.g. Uday) can hear these and more fairly easily - and there is an explanation for it (see below).

A (mathematical) quiz question: Which major swara *cannot* be heard with just sa, or sa-pa-sa? Why? What is the condition for a swara to be theoretically heard?

Arun

[ragam-talam]

A (mathematical) quiz question: Which major swara *cannot* be heard with just sa, or sa-pa-sa? Why? What is the condition for a swara to be theoretically heard?

Is it dhaivatam?
On the rest of the questions - pass

[Suji Ram]

is it M2 ?

[vasanthakokilam]

I think it is M1 which has a ratio of 4/3.

Since all we have is Sa and Pa, the mathematical rule ( which can be dervied from first princples ) is that the denominator of the ratio ( 3 in the ma(M1) case ) should properly divide atleast one of 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128,256,512,1024 , 2048 etc. In the case of 'ma' that is not the case ( 3 does not divide without remainders any of these numbers ).

I just made up the above rule. Arun, please let us know if that is indeed correct.

Here are the ratios for all the swaras I got from some internet site.

sa = 1
ri = 256/243
Ri = 9/8
ga = 32/27
Ga = 81/64
ma = 4/3
Ma = 729/512
pa = 3/2
dha = 128/81
Dha = 27/16
ni = 16/9
Ni = 243/128
SA = 2

Let me stick my neck out and make another observation: Atleast one variation of each swara follows the above rule. So one should theoretically be able to hear with just Sa and Pa the following swaras ( if the above ratios are correct ratios and my rule is correct ): Sa, Ri, Ga, Ma, pa, Dha, Ni, SA ( Kalyani )

[arunk]

I think it is M1 which has a ratio of 4/3.

Since all we have is Sa and Pa, the mathematical rule ( which can be dervied from first princples ) is that the denominator of the ratio ( 3 in the ma(M1) case ) should properly divide atleast one of 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128,256,512,1024 , 2048 etc. In the case of 'ma' that is not the case ( 3 does not divide without remainders any of these numbers ).

This is correct. It is indeed M1, and the rule is for the denominator must be a power of 2. I had worked out the proof for this on arvindh's group long ago, but I find now that I cannot access it and I cant remember it

Anyone care to take a shot?

Arun

[arunk]

vk - some of those ratios are wild

BTW G3 is more like 5/4

Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

Arun, Are our two rules equivalent. ( I think so but I have to think if one is more permissive than the other ).

I did derive my rule by enumerating it for a few cases and then generalizing it. I will formulate it as a formal statement later on, if others do not beat me to it.

The starting point of the mathematicall construction is:

Sa Harmonic Sequence: X, 2X, 3X, 4X, 5X
Sa Octave Sequence: X, 2X, 4X, 8X, 10X

Pa Harmonic Sequence: 3X/2, 3X, 9X/2, 12X/2, 15X/2 etc.

Now these higher order harmonic sequnces need to be normalized back to the first octave such that the ratio value is between 1 and 2. That requires that the above ratios are divided by 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64 etc. That is where the rule originates from.


I copied the ratios from another site. The Ga ratio of 80/64 vs 81/64 had been well debated. That 1/64 has been a bone of contention from olden times in the western musicological circles too.

[arunk]

I copied the ratios from another site. The Ga ratio of 80/64 vs 81/64 had been well debated. That 1/64 has been a bone of contention from olden times in the western musicological circles too.

I would be surprised if we find as much support for 81/64 as for 5/4! I think 5/4 is quite well established as the ratio for the natural major third. It is the 3d most prominent ratio after the fifth (pa:3/2), and the fourth (ma:4/3).

Also think of it this way: If it is 81/64. then knowing if we hear the exact G3 in a tampura is near impossible. The 64th harmonic of that Ga will match the 81st harmonic of sa! With 5/4 - things are much simpler and also explains why it can be quite prominently heard (after pa) in a tampura

I don't know where this 81/64 comes up - may be a cycle of fifths/fourths kind of thing.

Arun

[arunk]

Irrespective of the evolution of the ratios in the western system from older tunings, for carnatic, G3 is most certainly 5/4 i.e. about 386 cents and thus lower than 400 cents implying flatter than E for a sa on C on a keyboard following equi-tempered tuning. The 81/64 is about 408 cents thus would make it sharper than that E key.

The major third being 14 cents lower than the corresponding keyboard key is the biggest discrepancy for any note between the equi-tempered tuning and the natural tuning. This is also one big reason why playing say Sankarabharanam "scale" on keyboard can feel "off" particularly when hovering steady on that all important swara. But that is just one big reason

Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

This is definitely a case of me over-interpreting the content of the article from which I copied the ratios. I should have stopped with answering your questions

Anyway, here is the link to the article: http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/22_srutis.htm

[vasanthakokilam]

Arun, I browsed through the above link and it is quite confusing as to how those ratios are derived. As you correctly guessed, it does refer to the cycle of fourths and fifths, but in the context of Indian Classical music. See if you can shed some light on the content of the article when you have some time.

[mohan]

here is the link to the article: http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/22_srutis.htm

I recently received an email from people who had commented on the article and wanted to contact the author (S Vidyasankar). You can read it http://rapidshare.com/files/116440575/C ... sankar.pdf

Also if someone can contact S Vidyasankar, please alert him about this email document.

[arunk]

vk - I would take a pass. There was a time I was excited about all these ratios, the cycles etc. That time has passed. I am not sure I can get into it enough now to understand the intricacies of the article (again) and be able to explain things.

Also as you know, my interpretation of the 22 sruthis is quite different from this which also makes me less inclined to do it

Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

I understand, Arun. No problems.

[beginner]

My simple understanding about the 22 sruthis is :

Sa - 1
Ri - 6 (based on term shatsruthi)
Ga - 3
Ma - 2
Pa - 1
Dha - 6 (based on term sharstruthi)
Ni - 3

- total : 22

[martin]

Madhyam is indeed an evasive swara as a harmonic. The Ma can be coaxed to sing from the pancham string Pa7, the seventh harmonic sounding as Ma. Theoretically Sa 21 (between shuddh ga Sa20 and tivra ma Sa22) would be close to Ma but not in the 4/3 ratio to Sa. So no shuddh ma in the harmonics of Sa can be found

[msakella]

Dear b/s member, ragam-talam, While having a delicious meal we should not get any kind of unpleasant taste. In the same manner, while listening to music also, any unpleasant sound badly affects the music. Most unfortunately, many of our Karnataka musicians sing along with Shruti but not in Shruti. In fact, while singing the raga Abhogi not only the Panchama but also the Svayambhoo-svara, Antara-gandhara emanating from the Mandra-shadja string of the Tambura, must be avoided. But, even though the Panchama string could be reduced to Shuddha-madhyama, pitiably enough, there is no such provision in our Tambura to avoid this Svayambhoo-svara, Antara-gandhara. Generally, Svayambhoo-svaras disappear if the note is shifted to the next higher octave. Even such facility of shifting the note to the higher octave is not possible in our conventional Tambura. Apart from all these it will give a soothing affect if Chatusshruti-dhaivata is also included in Shruti while singing Abhogi which is not at all possible in our conventional Tambura. That is why, since last 20 years I have been using an Electronic Tambura which is designed by me and in which, in Tambura section, 3 octaves, Mandra, Madhya and Tara-sthayis are incorporated to have any one of them either with Panchama or Shuddha-madhyama or devoid of both of them and in Drone section, Shadjas of 4 octaves, 2 octaves each of Panchama, Madhyama, Antara-gandhara and Sadharana-gandhara and one octave of Shuddha-dhaivata and Chatusshruti-dhaivata. While tuning it --- Tamburas of Madhya-sthayi with all Shadjas and Tara-sthayi with Shadja and Shuddha-madhyama along with the Drone of Chatusshruti-dhaivata for Abhogi or Shreeranjani or Bageshree, Tamburas of all octaves with only Shadjas along with the Drone of Antara-gandhara and Chatusshruti-dhaivata for Hamsanandi, Tamburas of Madhya and Tara-sthayis with only Shadjas and Shuddha-madhyama for Hindola, Tamburas of Madhya and Tara-sthayis with only Shadjas along with the Drone of Chatusshruti-dhaivata for Ranjani, Tamburas of Madhya and Tara-sthayis with Shadjas and along with the Drone of Shuddha-dhaivata and Sadharana-gandhara for Shubhaali, Tamburas of Mandra and Madhya-sthayis with Shadja only and Tara-sthayi with Shadja and Panchama along with the Drone of Antara-gandhara for Shankarabharana and Kalyani and with occasional Chatusshruti-dhaivata in Drone for Mohana are required.. While tuning it the volume levels of Tamburas and Drone also vary according to the taste. Not only singing music along with it but also tuning this Tambura with occasional modulations is an art. The musician who is very sensitive either in singing music or tuning it can only make a very good show with it and others definitely fail either in tuning it or singing music along with it but deliberately declare that this instrument is not fit at all for singing Classical Karnataka music. Once, at the end of his scintillating music concert, Shri Mangalampalli Balamurali Krishna, the music veteran, while answering to the questions of the listeners, he himself queried ‘While singing a Karnataka music concert, if I sing in Shruti people tell I am singing in Hindusthani style, if I sing with Bhava they tell I am singing Light-music and then I do not understand in which way shall I sing the concert?’ amsharma.

[ragam-talam]

Thank you, Sharma-sir.

[martin]

vk - yes that is what I meant.

It is indeed possible to hear these. Pa can be heard (when focused upon intentionally) with just sa setting. Also, G3 can be heard fairly prominently - in electronic tampura boxes with sa-pa-sa. I can pick out pa and ga. For others like R2, and D2, I am not sure but i know what the combined effect (resonant effect?) of my voice+tampura *should* sound if I am hitting them correctly as I sing the note with the sruthi box on. Then if stop, I think I hear the "residual" sound in the tampura. But then it could be all my imagination But I do know others (e.g. Uday) can hear these and more fairly easily - and there is an explanation for it (see below).
Arun

Some time ago I wrote a text in defense of real tanpura against electronic upstarts in which I dealt with harmonics and fine-tuning. These matters that are mentioned in the above quote you'll find back in the text.
kind regards, martinuddin


http://www.martinspaink.mimemo.net/
For accessing an article about fine-tuning of tanpura's, follow:
http://www.medieval.org/music/world/martin_est.html
or at Ashish Sankrityayan's Dhrupad-website:
http://www.dhrupad.info/articles.htm
debate on tanpura: http://omenad.net/articles/tanpura_debate.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambura#India

[martin]

(...) The major third being 14 cents lower than the corresponding keyboard key is the biggest discrepancy for any note between the equi-tempered tuning and the natural tuning. (...) Arun

The minor third is even a little bit 'more worse' with 300 cts whereas natural is 316

[saranya]

I have one question in this regard. We have sa ma pa sa in a normal, manually operated sruthi box. If we need to start a song in madhyama scale, we will close pa and open ma. This ma is prathi madhyama or suddha madhyama?

If the raga of the song that we need to sing in madhyama scale is a suddha madhyama raga what we will do and if it is a prathi madhyama raga what we do? I dont know whether this question is correct or wrong. I am just a beginner. Kindly pardon me if I am wrong.

[cienu]

Hello Saranya,

When we say that we are changing to Madhyama Sruthi , it means Shuddha Madhyama.

This link below will help you. We had discussed in great detail earlier.

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4878

[arunk]

thanks martin for those enlightening posts (on this and other thread(s))!

Arun

[martin]

thanks martin for those enlightening posts (on this and other thread(s))!

Arun

You're too kind - it may not amount to much, but I feel that it is important to share information, you never know when something clicks in for a reader somewhere. I met with a good many persons who sit tight on any knowledge they might have as if it is their own. I did not like that very much so I try to do better.

[saranya]

Thanks Cienu. I understand that the ma is suddha madhyama. So for suddha madhyama ragas if the artist wants to start with madhyama sruthi, its possible. What the artist should do if a song in prathi madhyama raga need to be started with ma as the base instead of sa? I think prathi madhyamam has higher frequency than suddha madhyamam.

[vasanthakokilam]

Saranya: It is a valid confusion.

Setting the base sruthi to Suddha Madhyama has nothing to do with whether the raga has S.M or P.M. or No madhyama. Switching to "Ma sruthi" is equivalent to this. Consider some one who normally sings at 1 kattai and now they want to sing at 4 kattai. This is normally done for songs that do not go into the higher octave. So for such songs one can afford to start at a higher pitch and not exceed their voice range limitations. it provides a nice variation.

Theoretically speaking, I do not see a reason why someone can not switch to Panchama sruthi, Gandhara sruthi, dhaivatha sruthi etc.

[saranya]

Thanks. Now I got it.