TNS@Palani Subramania Pillai Day Celebrations

[Sathej]

Shri Madurai TN Seshagopalan (TNS) - Vocal
Shri M Chandrasekharan - Violin
Shri Trichur Narendran - Mrudangam
Shri Purushothaman - Kanjira

Venue : Narada Gana Sabha Main Hall
Date : May 11, 2008

Am recalling details, including song list from memory. So any errors may please be excused and corrected.

After some good speeches by veterans like Shri Balamuralikrishna (who stressed on the vitality of singing 'unprepared' Pallavis), Shri TK Murthy, Shri Lalgudi G Jayaraman (address read out by his daughter) and a few others like Shri Murali, the concert started off at 7:30 PM (quite according to schedule, there being only a 10 minute delay).

Song List:

1) Manasa Guru Guha - Anandabhairavi - AS
2) Amma Ravamma - Kalyani - ANS
3) Vancha Thonu - Karnaranjani - A
4) Shri Subrahmanyaya Namasthe - Kambhoji - ANST
5) Ragamalika Virutham followed by Kaliyuga Varadan - Brindavana Saranga
6) Too bad memory. I forget what it was!
7) Mangalam and Shriyathkanthaya

TNS warmed up with a good Anandabhairavi. The next was a fairly detailed Kalyani Alapanai followed by the Krithi. The Swarams were well rendered too. Vancha Thonu was perhaps a request. The Karnaranjani Alapanai preceding it was very good. The Kambhoji was extensive with nice Swarams. After Swarams, TNS went on to do a Trikalam for the Pallavi line. The violinist's repartees during the Swarams were commendable. After a good Thani, TNS sang a Virutham followed by the Brindavana Saranga piece. The concert ended close to around 10:30 PM.

Overall a fine concert. To me, the Anandabhairavi and Karnaranjani Alapanais and Kambhoji Swarams were real high points.

Sathej

[ram]

6) Too bad memory. I forget what it was!

6) ERu mayil ERi (tiruppugazh) - suruTTi - catusra jampa (kanDa gati) - aruNagirinAthar (A)

[Sathej]

@Ram,
Thanks
Sathej

[madhavan]

Thanks Mr.Satej!
All the songs were TNS's masterpiece items and no doubt it was yet another excellent concert by the veteran.

Was there any audio-visual presentation about Palani Subramaniya Pillai?
I could not attend the concert due to personal reasons.

Madhavan.

P.S.: This is my maiden attempt, please excuse if any mistakes.

[semmu86]

yes of course they played some excerpts from palani anna's concerts at the mini hall from 4.30-5.30 ....there were two thanis and two pieces where accompanied gnb and madurai mani iyer

[Nick H]

I enjoyed the function very much, even though I missed out on much of the Tamil --- there was enough English to keep my going, and perhaps just one quote from BMK, that it was PSP who taught him the difference between tala and laya was enough in itself for me to have gone for.

I would have been most happy if a lecdem on PSPs technique, style and innovations could have been included. How I wish I had travelled to Bangalore a couple of months back for TS giving what I heard tell was a wonderful lec-dem. But we cannot have everything.

TNS is, I think, just not my sort of singer. I won't argue with those who proclaim his brilliance, for me to do so would be very silly, given my relative lack of experience. It is just one of those things where we cannot all be expected to have the same reactions. I can't say that I enjoyed the concert, but I will not presume to criticise it.

That is a small thing; I went in respect of my guruji's guru's guru, and can only thank the organisers for making that possible. Thank you all!

[srkris]

I went in respect of my guruji's guru's guru...

Thats a lot of weight

(P.S. Guru in sanskrit means weighty/heavy as opposed to laghu-->light)

[arasi]

Nick,
Your not raving about TNS's concert is understood. Not all the leading musicians have to be 'our sort' of singers. I don't think you should consider yourself to be less of a 'rasikA' simply because you don't appreciate a particular singer. Of course, it does not mean that the great ones are not good enough either!
After all, tastes do differ...

[vijay]

TNS evokes a lot of mixed reactions and although I consider him the greatest vocalist of all time, I somehow don't find it hard to digst a negative reaction to his music. But to Nick and everyone else who has an issue with his music, I would only request that they listen to his best from the 80s to mid 90s before forming a final opinion - I mention this not as a fan of TNS but to ensure that fellow rasikas do not miss out on a truly remarkable phenomenon as far as Indian Classical Music is concerned.

Of course, I know enough cases where even his best was deemed not good enough but at least they tried ...in particular I would recommend the Ramanamapravaham studio release with a Kaanada main, SAnkarabharanam from KGS in early 80s, Kamalambam in Kalyani released by Carnatica and a Music Academy Concert from the mid 90s faturing Pakkala Nilabadi as the main piece

[mridhangam]

Srkris

I was under the impression that the word GURU in sanskrit means "Dispeller of Darkness" Gu means darkness and Ru is one who dispels it. Am i wrong ?

J.balaji

[Nick H]

TNS evokes a lot of mixed reactions and although I consider him the greatest vocalist of all time, I somehow don't find it hard to digst a negative reaction to his music.

Substitute BMK for TNS in that sentence and it could have been said by me!

Yes, each to their own, and I'm glad we can live with each other's likes as well as each other's dislikes.

Guru; the teacher, the opener of the eyes --- I guess that is another interpretation of the dispeller of darkness?

[semmu86]

wow nick lovely interpretation... and by the way was it you the one with the majestic maroon kurtha in that fuction??

[Member_First]

Gu means Ga3
Ru means Ri3

[Nick H]

wow nick lovely interpretation... and by the way was it you the one with the majestic maroon kurtha in that fuction??

Well, I'm sure I heard it from my guruji... something like your parents give you eyes; your teacher opens them --- must be traditional, so others must know it?

And yes, I was wearing a dark redish/maroonish kurta and a vesti with a red stripe. I saw one non-Indian woman in the audience for the first part, otherwise, I don't think there were many foreigners there.

[arasi]

Nick,
You are 'with it', for sure!
Vijay expanded on what I had said, and said it so well as he always does. Your BMK comparison was right on the mark!

[ragam-talam]

I don't think there were many foreigners there.

Of course, you are not a 'foreigner' for us rasikas!

This reminds me of a funny incident that happened several years ago. There was a day-long function at Pittsburgh Sri Venkateswara temple. In the evening when I was walking out, I noticed one 'mami' dressed in full kanchipuram gear remarking to another lady (pointing to a white couple): "Look at these foreigners!" (or something close).
Truly a hilarious moment.

[Nick H]

But I might even have said the same had it been Highgate Muragan Temple in London! I'd probably have laughed at myself the next minute, though!

Culture transplants!

[ramakriya]

I don't think there were many foreigners there.

Of course, you are not a 'foreigner' for us rasikas!

This reminds me of a funny incident that happened several years ago. There was a day-long function at Pittsburgh Sri Venkateswara temple. In the evening when I was walking out, I noticed one 'mami' dressed in full kanchipuram gear remarking to another lady (pointing to a white couple): "Look at these foreigners!" (or something close).
Truly a hilarious moment.

Ha Ha - One of my relatives who had seen only the bay area crowd ( which means Indian/Asian looking faces in majority) visited a town in the Midwest, and exclaimed - "There are so many foriegners there "

All in jest.

Peace.

-Ramakriya

[Suji Ram]

They are foreigners and we are aliens!!!

[srkris]

I was under the impression that the word GURU in sanskrit means "Dispeller of Darkness" Gu means darkness and Ru is one who dispels it. Am i wrong ?

No, that is just the popular (creative) explanation but it is incorrect.

If you want a scientific/grammatical explanation for the word Guru, please read on:

1. Guru cannot be split into its constituent syllables gu+ru. It is derived from the sanskrit root 'gru' which means heavy/massive. The word gaurava is derived by vriddhi from guru, and means "important/venerable". Clearly gaurava does not have any relation to "dispelling darkness".

2. The english words 'grave' & 'gravity' are derived from the same root 'gru' (since english is related to sanskrit). Again clearly this means heavy or important.

3. Guru (the teacher) was originally meant to be the important man (the big man) or the heavy/weighty guy in terms of knowledge.

4. This word guru is earliest found attested in the Rig Veda (mandala 1, hymn 39) and there also it refers to something heavy.

5. Among the navagrahas/celestials/planets Jupiter is called guru since it is "the massive one" or heaviest/biggest one. The indian/sanskrit name of jupiter is Brihaspati (brihaspati means "the big lord").

6. Brihaspati is also the name of a rishi who is said to have been the perceptor (guru) of the devas. Here we can see the link between the two meanings of the word guru (i.e "the big/heavy guy" and "the teacher").

7. Another related word is gariSTha (again derived from the same root gru) which means heaviest or most venerable.

So it is clear that there is no ignorance (so-called gu) or its removal (so-called ru) involved as far as the constructon of the sanskrit word guru is concerned. Sanskrit is not an agglutinative language to simply join phonemes/morphemes like that.

[arasi]

srkris,
Thank you for your 'heavy' explanation with references. I am not in the dark anymore about the meaning of the word

[ragam-talam]

I was under the impression that the word GURU in sanskrit means "Dispeller of Darkness" Gu means darkness and Ru is one who dispels it. Am i wrong ?

No, that is just the popular (creative) explanation but it is incorrect.

Check out here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru
for other viewpoints:
"According to the Advaya-Tãraka Upanishad (verse 16), guru is composed of the syllables 'gu' and 'ru', the former signifying 'darkness', and the latter signifying 'the destroyer of that [darkness]', hence a guru is one characterized as someone who dispels spiritual ignorance (darkness), with spiritual illumination (light)."

"Another etymology of the word "guru" found in the Guru Gita, includes gu as "beyond the qualities" and ru as "devoid of form", stating that "He who bestows that nature which transcend the qualities is said to be guru".

[srkris]

Check out here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru
for other viewpoints:
"According to the Advaya-Tãraka Upanishad (verse 16), guru is composed of the syllables 'gu' and 'ru', the former signifying 'darkness', and the latter signifying 'the destroyer of that [darkness]', hence a guru is one characterized as someone who dispels spiritual ignorance (darkness), with spiritual illumination (light)."

"Another etymology of the word "guru" found in the Guru Gita, includes gu as "beyond the qualities" and ru as "devoid of form", stating that "He who bestows that nature which transcend the qualities is said to be guru".

Yeah, as I said, these are creative (and scientifically/grammatically incorrect) explanations.

Something does not become true merely because somebody said it or it is found in some fancy literature. It should have a strong grammatical backing, else it can only be a "my grandmother told me so" kind of explanation.

[Nick H]

Hmmm.... very interesting, and it is true to say that when I used to teach some simple lessons to very small children, i certainly felt the weight of the tradition and that line of great gurus.

Words are lovely things to play with, and to be creative with. Probably we can learn from this kind of word play in many languages.

However, it is nice to be brought back to earth (by gravity, I suppose!) too

[kjrao]

I am really surprised by the explanation given by srkris for the word GURU. It is just like trying to explain the word PARAMATMA . It can only explain how the word might have originated and not how it has been used in different contexts. What is expected of a GURU by a spiritual seeker can be found in GURU STOTRA.

[arasi]

Suji,
I like that one

[ragam-talam]

Something does not become true merely because somebody said it or it is found in some fancy literature. It should have a strong grammatical backing, else it can only be a "my grandmother told me so" kind of explanation.

Perhaps you can provide your sources?

[vasanthakokilam]

..perhaps just one quote from BMK, that it was PSP who taught him the difference between tala and laya was enough in itself for me to have gone for.

I have my own half-baked ideas on the difference between laya and tala which I would like to cook further. What did BMK say?

[Sathej]

If I remember correctly, BMK did not elaborate on the point, just made a reference.
Sathej

[Nick H]

Yes, that was the entire mention, no details.

He began by saying he could only speak about PSP for minimum 80 minutes, but had been given only eight. The event and the speakers were well discipled, and nobody exploited 'possession' of the microphone, so there was not time for detail.

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks Sathej and Nick.

[cacm]

Dear Vasanthakokilam,
I would very much like to hear your ideas on the difference between Laya & Thala. Always eager to learn, vkv

[mridhangam]

In simple terms .. Tala and Laya can be termed thus. Tala is just a meter. Laya is the immense Possibilities within the meter.

J.balaji

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks very much Balaji.

My thinking is probably included in the general principle you have stated. For whatever it is worth, here it is. These half baked ideas are not from any specific source, so please feel free to correct me if I am using the word 'laya' too loosely or incorrectly. This is sort of a 'from the first principles' point of view, so it is really KG stuff. Most of these observations are based on the various discussions we had on rhythm in this forum and also based on personal observations of the variety of laya patterns in various compositions of the Trinity, especially Thyagaraja.

A composition has laya built into it. It is the rhythmic structure of the song consisting of stress points of various magnitudes. The stress points can be a major emphasis or a minor emphasis and there can be different gradations of the major and minor emphasis. Silences of various durations also add to the color of the rhythmic structure. The emphasis points can also fall on a point when there is silence.

In this view point, laya is the rhythmic structure and pattern that is built into the song. So Laya refers to the internal representation of the rhythm

Thala is the external representation of the laya. Laya patterns varies a lot and a direct one to one external represenation would be too unwieldly. So thala provides for a aggregate and abstract representation of the laya to mark the beats and the cycles at the macro level. The cycle of the thala is obviously used for fitting in logical sections of the lyrics of the composition.

Here are some examples where laya and thala have different but related characterizations.

1) If you analyze the various Desadi thala songs of Thyagaraja and others, they all have a very similar internal rhythmic structure. ( Raghunayaka-Hamsadhwani, Manavyala-Nalinakanthi ,Bantureethi-Hamsanadham etc. ). Stripped of all complexities, the laya of these songs can be described as: An alternating Major and Minor stress points with occasional heavier emphasis on the second Major Stress. This is normally fit on top of Adi Thala with an eduppu of 1.5 beats.

2) There are a lot of songs that are the 1/2 eduppu Adi thala songs. The laya of the song itself is much simpler. It consists of two parts of four stress points each. Each part has two Major and two minor stress points. The first stress point that is encountered in each section is a minor stress point. A noticable feature/pattern of such a laya pattern is, the two halves are bridged together with first part finishing on the first major beat of the second part, then a small pause and then the second part starts. The same thing is noticable between the second part and the first part.

3) In the above category, each part can have an alternating Major and minor stresses or you can have one major stress and 3 minor stresses or a combination of both.

4) But no matter what, the differences in laya patterns are, they are all considered Adi with 1/2 eduppus.

5) Other possibilites where the laya structure is different from the thala structure is, the song's natural rhythmic pattern may be 3 + 3 + 2.. That is {Major, Minor, Minor}, {Major, Minor, Minor}, {Major, Minor} but it will still be considered Adi thala of 1 kalai or 2 kalai. Nadopasana-Begada comes to mind where in many sections of the song, the built in laya is 3 + 3 + 2.

6) There are of course songs whose laya structure may match exactly the thala structure. For example, the laya structure can be 4 + 2 + 2 for Adi. In those cases, more than the music it is the words that get aligned that way. Of course, the words do add a lot of weight to the manifestation of the rhythm.
RTP's tend to be this way too in the initial sections with the mid point /fulcrum point getting a big stress ( arudhi ).

7) The internal laya structure, many times focusses at the sub-beat level, in different combinations. That is why the laya possibilities are much more than the thala structure.

8) Songs can intentionally lay out a laya structure whose stress points do not match the beat points of the thala. That has definite aesthetic appeal. There is a certain amount of tension created by such syncopation and then when the laya stress point comes back to alignment with the thala beat point, there is resolution.

9) Eduppu ( starting point ) when described in terms of Thala is quite a confusing topic. But expressed in terms of laya, it is quite simple and straightforward.
The song starting point can be characterised as follows.
a) Starts on a minor stress point
b) Starts on a major stress point
c) The first stress point after the start is a Major stress point
d) The first stress point after teh start is a Minor stress point

Summarizing the above, one can say, the song starts on the stress point, before the stress point or after the stress point without really defining which point in the thala cycle the song begins. That captures the essential laya nature of the Eduppu.

These are fairly easy concepts to grasp. Mapping these to thalas eduppus:
The Desadi thala songs fit into the category d.
So are the 'Before the thala begins-Atitha' eduppus. They also belong to category d.
The 1/2 eduppu songs belong to category c.
(Assuming we count thala beats starting from 1, say for Adi thala)
If a song starts right on an even numbered beat of the thala, then it can be loosely considered to be item b ( endaro mahanubavalu-Sri )
If a song starts right on an odd numbered beat of the Adi thala, then it can be considered to be item a

Mapping the eduppu from the primitive laya point of view to the structure of the thala can get complicated. There are composer who more or less obey the rule that the mid point of the thala is important and provide extra emphasis on that 5th beat of Adi. In such cases, the song obviously can not start on any beat. The stress structure ( laya ) of the song has to be overlaid on the Thala ruler so that it meets this Arudhi ( e.g 5th beat in Adi ) condition.

[srkris]

Something does not become true merely because somebody said it or it is found in some fancy literature. It should have a strong grammatical backing, else it can only be a "my grandmother told me so" kind of explanation.

Perhaps you can provide your sources?

Yeah its just grammar. I have already mentioned the root is gru. For all etymological explanations, the best way is to trace the root.

What is the meaning of gurutwam? It means "being massive/heavy".

[Nick H]

I'll presume, if I may, to disagree with VK --- at least for the purpose of learning and debate!

Tala is everything to do with the anatomy of the rhythm. This includes the structure, the number of aksharas, their division into angas and, in any particular song, the edippu, the number of cycles per line and so on.

Laya is the personal sense of timing without which those immense possibilities Balaji speaks of cannot be presented as anything other than mechanics and repetition.

At its simplest (and I have yet to achieve even this) it takes laya to present a korvais calculation, with correct stresses, whilst also being aware of the tala. Frankly, any of us could present a korvais, ariving correctly at the sammam, simply by counting.

Actually, maybe the first baby step of laya is to be able to count and keep the counting regular and even; I know there are some who find this difficult, even though their hearts can do it all day, but the next steps seem to me to be so far above the mechanical.

This leads me to the suggestion that a song does not have laya!

The composer almost certainly did; the performer may have, but the song itself has a structure already pre-determined.

The performer may even work within that structure to add emphasis and expression by, for instance, shifting the eddipu slightly, but catching up by syncopation. Hard to do without laya! Isn't this, by the way, part of the skill of neraval singing?

[arasi]

VK,
As is the case with me, I do not understand half of what you say because of my ignorance on the subject! Still, I try to understand at least part of it by reading through.

mridhangam and Nick make sense too. Knowing that tALams are not my forte, I would like to add my experience, merely as a composer:
moi (to a professional vocalist): I have no idea what tAlam the song has come in. May be, there is no tALam there at all!

The vocalist: Why do you say that? It is there!

moi: Really? What is it?

The vocalist : (demonstrates): See?

There have been a few cases when neither of us 'see'! Then the vocalist says, 'let's see!'.

All I know is that a song is born with 'a flow'. It is an internal rhythm, flawed as it occasionally can be. I cannot describe it as you pros can. Still, it is very much there. In my case, easily the Adi tALam (apologies, Rajesh!).

[vasanthakokilam]

Arasi: What you are saying is that inherent and internal rhythmic structure which I am terming as 'laya' rather than thala, just to distinguish between thala and laya. ( may be I am wrong about using the word 'laya' in that context )

Nick, terminologies differences aside, let us consider this situation. There is no mridangam, no one is putting thalam etc. Someone is singing a song. There is rhythm in that song, everyone feels it. That is what I am calling 'laya'. One then tries to measure that internal laya with an external ruler called Thala and pick the one that aesthetically best matches the internal rhythm. That is why I am calling Thala as the external aggregate and abstract representation of the laya.

At this point we can leave out the techniques and practise of mridangists themselves ( korvais etc. ) or what a singer does with niraval and kalpanaswarams ( and korvais come there also ) since that is an ocean. I am sure the word 'laya' has specific meanings there in those contexts. But first I want to limit it to the song and its interent rhythmic structure and see if the word 'laya' applies there.

[Suji Ram]

my understanding of tAla and laya is beat vs tempo. I think I follow what Nick says here.
VK your analysis is interesting when it comes to how compositions are thought about by composers.

[Nick H]

VK... I certainly can't argue with that!

At it's most basic and essential, I'd say that Laya is rhythm sense.

It is what enables your singer as mentioned to sing that song with correct timing, and express its flow.

But... if it was inherent in the song, anyone would be able to get it right, and I am sure you will have experienced music lovers, even students, singing something in a way that they feel expresses the song, but should you try to keep talam with them you would find it a hopeless task. The song, for them is a sort of alapana with words, and the way they enjoy each phrase and note may be very valid for them, but it is completely lacking in laya.

Perhaps Arasi has plenty of laya --- and her words have natural rhythm, which it then then takes someone with knowledge of tala to codify.

...which is accordance, I think, with VK saying that the laya is on the inside, and the tala is the expression.

[Nick H]

Suji Ram,

Laya is the interval between two successive kriyas

says Dharmala Ramamurthy in his Theory and Practice of Mridanga.

It's certainly easy to equate that to tempo. Increase the interval, the music gets slower, reduce it, it gets faster.

But I don't think it properly defines the word as it was used by BMK in his speech, or in our discussion. It is where it begins.

There is a collection of scholarly papers somebody gave a link to recently. One of them discusses the the ten elements of tala (I just remembered) and their usage in modern day and terms.

Just now I can't make the link work.

[vasanthakokilam]

laya is on the inside, and the tala is the expression.

Yes.

Adding some words around that basic principle:

1) laya is inside and inherent

2) Thala is the abstract expression of the laya. I am using the word 'abstract' with a precise meaning. "Abstract' means 'leave out details', 'capture certain main aspects of it', 'model', 'summary', 'at a different level of detail', 'a different but equivalent external representation possibly leaving out details' etc.

3) If we buy into the above distinction, then we can talk about 'laya cycles' vs 'thala cycles' as different but related entities. A laya pattern cycle can be smaller than the thala cycle or it can cross over thala cycles. In the above long post of mine, I have provided my examples for such things.

4) This also implies that a particular thala cycle can express many different laya pattern cycles.

[ragam-talam]

Yeah its just grammar. I have already mentioned the root is gru. For all etymological explanations, the best way is to trace the root.

What is the meaning of gurutwam? It means "being massive/heavy".

Thanks.

http://www.experiencefestival.com/hinduism_guru
"The word Guru comes from Sanskrit guru 'weighty, grave' (compare with Latin gravis). It means "with weightage (a big importance)".

Also it is often (correctly from spiritual point-of-view) interpreted as being derived from two root words Gu (meaning darkness), and ru (dispeller or remover)."

[diogeneb]

It is indeed heartening to know TNS gave a good concert. His concert on 07/05/08 at Rama Seva Mandali, Bangalore was nothing to write home about. His voice and shruti were both out of sorts.

[ANU]

TNS's voice was very much out of sorts on the PSP day too. Maybe Sri Subramanyaya Namasthe with its low pitch brought out the worst. But he showed his genius and terrific imagination in the 1st speed swaram for this song.