How much are artists paid?

vigneshbal · Post by **vigneshbal** » 18 May 2008, 19:33

Hi all,

I find that there are a lot of organizers in this community.. Can somebody tell me what is the monetary compensation to the artists for a concert?

May be a 3 hr concert in chennai/elsewhere in India/Abroad? How much are accompanists paid? I was told that one senior artist demanded 1 lakh for a marriage concert in coimbatore.. can this be true? Do they charge so much?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 18 May 2008, 20:51

Several top artistes do not perform at a wedding, though the money is tempting. The reasons are obvious: not many rasikAs to hear them. Even those who have arranged the concert are busy with the wedding. A few who do sit and try to listen are denied the pleasure of good music because of all the din and the distracting line-up in the reception of what is called 'greeting the newly weds'.
A few wedding concerts I have been to have been exceptions to this rule. The only way for music lovers to have a wedding concert is to have a 'music alone' evening for family and friends who are rasikAs. It can be a simple affair or very elaborate. Keen listeners is the key. We had such an evening (not part of the wedding) when my son got married. Not easy, but can be done.
Our own Prashant had two veterans sing at his wedding, music lovers as the whole family happens to be. Nedunuri and Vedavalli!
I have heard that a few popular performers demand a bundle for wedding concerts. You lakh of rupees does not come as a surprise to me. In such cases, it is mostly a 'prestige' thing for the parents. Like flowers flown from abroad and such 'keeping up appearances' and 'I can do better than others' thing. arangETRam or wedding, it is 'showing off' in such cases.
The gist of it is, the payment varies tremendously. A good emerging singer might do her best. Instrumentalists too, and they would do it for an very affordable payment.
Whether aspiring artistes or veterans, they all need a good audience and less noise to perform to everyone's satisfaction. If you can manage it, set the stage as distant as possible from where the 'congratulating of the bride and groom' takes place!
Good luck!

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 19 May 2008, 09:03

arasi - small connection. Since Nedunuri Garu could not make it due to indifferent health at the time, the Malladi Brothers sang instead of him at my wedding. A very nice concert with a beautiful gauLa. We arranged their concert before the previous days' festivities and Smt. Vedavalli's concert the evening of my wedding, both as stand-alone events, thereby preserving the attention to the concert.

I was happy to be able to enjoy the concerts, and so was my wife, since she knew that if there was music by any one of these artistes during the wedding, my attention would have been quite seriously diverted from the mantrams

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 19 May 2008, 09:14

Anyone volunteering to divulge a very delicate info should not disclose artists' name.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 19 May 2008, 09:43

I agree. Renumeration is a touchy area and let's not discuss in a public forum. If any one wants to help vigeshbal in providing informatom, personal email will be a better choice.

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 19 May 2008, 10:20

Yes
That is wat i also felt. I was almost about to start the topic after getting a paltry (almost deplorable-unthinkable) sum for a concert in chennai recently. but self dignity prevents me from pin pointing people and organisations.
It is very sensitive and a matter for debate.
Instead of finding out wat the artistes are getting it would be better if the forum discusses the ways to achieve the long felt need for Unified action against such cases in Carnatic Circle. Who to bell the cat is the situation here in Carnatic music. I am sure if the same thing had happened to any of the Light Music artiste they would have taken to the Cine Musicians Forum and what i mean is there is a Unified Forum for such cases. Even in Carnatic Music it was started in Narada Gana Sabha but due to the usual problem of not able to bring the musicians together it died a natural death. In tamil jocularly we always say "coverchiya irukkumnu ninacha cover CHI nnu irundudu."

Anyway the best solutions would be to unite the musicians through some nice Fora as this and then decide on the minimum payment crieteria and a consensus can be reached based on the different types of requirement. like Sabha Concert Local (Local should mean within the city-Mylapore, Mambalam, RA Puram, Adyar, Indira Nagar etc, places like Nanganallur, Madippakkam, Tambaram, Pallavaram should not be included in this), Sabha Concert Outstation, Local marriage concert, Marriage outstation concerts, Temple concerts, Chamber concerts etc etc .. there are many categories in which the concerts are arranged.

I know the task is mammoth but a single positive and right step towards bringing in sustenance for the artistes (especially accompanists) will go a long way in strengthening the Carnatic System.

Mannarkoil J.Balaji

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 19 May 2008, 14:20

I think we have recognised that, by and large, Carnatic artists are paid peanuts even compared with Hindustani artists, and when speaking of the top names, the Northerners can command fees comparable to artists of other countries, and much less than the stars of carnatic music.

Is it that our musicians are expected to perform for devotion? Well, that's fine, but the physical body must be housed and fed.

I'd humbly suggest that a good first step towards a better future would be for artists to give up their sensitivity in talking about such matters*. 'Divide and separate' is a technique used effectively by British employers (outside the public sector where grades are known and salaries can thus be deduced) who encourage confidentiality on the matter.

We have to support our artists. At the same time, one is aware that as the cost of staging concerts increases, the number must surely decrease.

*I'd also admit that that is unlikely to happen. I'm sure there are plenty of issues about this even among the younger artists who might be expected to be less sensitive.

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 19 May 2008, 15:39

Unfortunately, in Tamilnad people are very crazy about cinemas, crores of rupees are involved in cinemas. the actors, singers, music directors , technicians are paid fabulous amounts. A cinema ticket costs rs 100 minimum in good theatres.can we expect such support for Carnatic music/ the percentage of carnatic music supporters will be not even 1percent of the population. The sabhas cannot pay more unless sponsored by banks or big firms.Another aspect , the accompnying artists should be paid directly by the sabhas,Not left tothe mercy of singers. gobilalitha

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 19 May 2008, 18:50

.Another aspect , the accompnying artists should be paid directly by the sabhas,Not left tothe mercy of singers.

That happens? I have no idea how sabhas work here, but I had always assumed that the individual presentation of envelopes meant individual, agreed fees.

Naive of me?

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 19 May 2008, 21:22

Perhaps it's time for the artistes to form a union, and demand decent payments.
I am quite serious about this. At least the juniors can do this, senior artistes may be ok with the status quo.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 May 2008, 22:40

r-t, I understand the reason you are bringing up the union stuff, but think hard before you ask for such a thing. Do we want musicians to go on strike during the season, or form a picket line in front of the Music Academy

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 19 May 2008, 23:39

Do people from other professions discuss about their remuneration in public? They why do that for artists?

I am sure if I want to organize a concert, and want to know the expenses, there are myriad ways to find out

-Ramakriya

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 19 May 2008, 23:52

IMHO, leaving aside the touchy subject of payment to musicians, Carnatic concerts in general have ceased to be moneyspinners.

Is it because there are too few Carnatic Musicians with a USP (Unique Selling Proposition)?

Or is it because the presentation of Carnatic Music as a commercial product in sabhas is not upto modern-day standards?

Or is it because of how some people feel (in the pretext that carnatic music is divine and best stays non-commercial) that musicians should stay poor by pricing their concerts low?

I think its a very good combination of all three reasons outlined above. Once each of the above three blocks are removed, carnatic musicians can earn as much (and possibly more) than any other genre of musicians.

Once musicians are paid more, they will start worrying about how to present better music, rather than counting the number of concerts they would have to play to break even with reasonable livng standards.

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 20 May 2008, 00:07

nick H wrote:I think we have recognised that, by and large, Carnatic artists are paid peanuts...

nick H wrote:I'd humbly suggest that a good first step towards a better future would be for artists to give up their sensitivity in talking about such matters*...

*I'd also admit that that is unlikely to happen. I'm sure there are plenty of issues about this even among the younger artists who might be expected to be less sensitive.

It might be easier to discuss a fee scale with a minimum fee for the artists, with senior and other star artists negotiating higher fees as appropriate.

For example, the Screen Actors Guild sets a minimum of $759 a day for actors (they have a couple of other scales for low budget productions)
http://www.sag.org/files/documents/Inte ... 0Sheet.pdf

How about it? The first-time main artist gets a minimum of Rs. 30000 a concert; accompanists get a minimum of Rs. 15000 a concert. Experienced and in-demand artists can negotiate a higher, more reasonable fee.

vasanthakokilam wrote:Do we want musicians to go on strike during the season, or form a picket line in front of the Music Academy

It shouldn't have to come to that, but if that will get them a decent wage, why not?

ramakriya wrote:Do people from other professions discuss about their remuneration in public? They why do that for artists?

Yes, they do (at least in terms of minimum pay) - see the SAG link above.

srkris wrote:Once each of the above three blocks are removed, carnatic musicians can earn as much (and possibly more) than any other genre of musicians.

I think it should be the other way around: once Carnatic musicians are paid a decent wage, the other factors you mention above will be fixed.

The bottom line is this: if we think musicians should be paid better, we should pay them better. A simple way to begin is by artists getting together to insist on a reasonable minimum.

manvantara · Post by **manvantara** » 20 May 2008, 00:20

Back in 2001, when I was spending some time each week for a non-profit organization raising funds (worldwide) for children in India, a fund raising concert series was held and the artiste was Amjad Ali Khan. Everyone worked hard to get more people buy tickets (and attend the concert). It was only when the details were discussed after the concert (to see how much our chapter was able to raise), that I found out that the artiste had charged $10,000.00! To me, this sounded like a huge amount, considering I had heard of $2000 and $3000 for other (CM) concerts.

Amjad Ali Khan presented a two hour concert with his sons. In my opinion, his sons were not yet concert ready - they played correctly and well, but needed more time to go on stage. There was more focus on marketing and presenting them and making a big thing about how they are the nth generation of musicians in a long line of all time great musicians than actual music.
I felt very bad that he had charged this much, particularly when it was going to be a "fund raiser". And the organization had signed up 5 such concerts with him.

Just thought I'd write about this, since I was aware of exact amount of the artiste's fee.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 20 May 2008, 01:19

Sorry, but I don't think that helps here much.

1. He's a Northern Indian musician. We have long since recognised that they, especially the big names, get paid a lot more than Southern musicians.

2. You do not mention where the concert was, whether or not international travel was involved.

3. Doesn't he live (ok, I'm sure he has a base in India) at least much of his time outside of India, therefore must budget according to the cost of living of his home.

Frankly, being dissatisfied or feeling bad after the event is something that you should take up with the organisers, not take out on the musician. Your complaints about one concert, whether or not you had an involvement in it, furnish one example of a top-world-name Hindustani musician's fee, possibly for a performance in another country anyway. Apart from that peripheral fact, I don't see much there of relevance to a Chennai-based artist performing in their home, or other Indian city.

Mind you, I don't imagine many have ever been paid as much for an appearance, even abroad, and those that have are probably resident in America rather than India. I'm sure they wouldn't mind.

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 20 May 2008, 02:05

Perhaps a fair way of sharing an agreed fee for a concert ( assuming a total concert fee had been agreed) would be

Main singer 50%
Violin 30%
Mridangam 20%

If there is upa-pakkavadyam, then he gets 10% and this should come out of the main singer's share of earning.

Of course, the pakkavadyam artists can always strike their own deal when accepting a concert, when the above does not come into the equation.

This is just a suggestion, to get the discussion going....

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 20 May 2008, 03:01

My understanding is: famous singers get any where from 7 to 10K if they are on their U.S leg of tour plus accomodation, food and local transportion. New entrants probably fetch 1.5 to 3.00k.

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 20 May 2008, 06:57

My two cents worth ! Before we blame the sabhas and organizers for the paltry remuneration paid to Carnatic artists, let us consider other factors. There are only half a dozen or so famous Hindustani artists, whereras there are scores of renowned carnatic artists that visit and perform here in the u.s. and hence there are more number of concerts that rasikas will attend and support. Patrons of Hindustani music are willing to pay $100 or more per ticket for a Ravi Shankar or a Hariprasad to listen to repetitions of the same few ragas from their limited repertoire ! But we carnatic patrons grudge a $25 ticket as too much, perhaps because we have the opportunity for a dozen such concerts per year. Under such circumstances, how can we expect an organization to afford to pay a large remuneration for the carnatic artist. It is a question of supply and demand for the artists and affordability for the sabhas.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 May 2008, 08:40

Good point, Sundara Rajan. When there are a lot of major, minor and juniors artistes giving concerts year long, it is not easy for many rasikAs to shell out big bucks for a tickets if they are regular concert goers. I think the sabhas have to consider paying the artistes a decent amount of money. I suppose some mega stars demand and get what they ask for.
Sam has come up with the percentage of payment suggestion. I should not ask I suppose, but why are mrudangists paid much less than the violinists? Don't they support the vocalist equally? If the violinist plays rAgam, the mrudangist rests. When it is tani, the violinist gets his turn to rest. So, it i s more or less equal time.
A vocal concert can take place without a violin if such a situation arises. The violin alone as an accompaniment is not enough for a concert to go on.
Also, upcoming artistes are vulnerable, if organizers are not given to being generous with their payments. Even a paltry sum would do for them, since a chance to perform and the exposure that comes from it is important to them.
As with everything, an all round effort is necessary to make things better:
rasikAs who do not complain about reasonable ticket prices and do not insist on demanding value for money.
Organizers who respect and reward performers decently.
Artistes who are cooperative and are supportive of each other.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 20 May 2008, 08:55

arasi wrote:If the violinist plays rAgam, the mrudangist rests. When it is tani, the violinist gets his turn to rest. So, it i s more or less equal time.

Well, it doesn't quite turn out that way. The violinist has to accompany even as the main artiste sings Ragam, Neraval and Swaram and also play during his solo turns. The 15-20 minutes of 'rest' for a violinist during the Thani more often not is lesser. And even during the Thani, when there is a Upa pakkavadyam, the Mrudangam gets period of 'non-playing.' Am reminded of TMK writing once in his site that sometimes a violinist ends up doing more work than the main artiste.
Sathej

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 May 2008, 09:09

Sathej,
You set me right, although I have heard a few concerts where the violinist
barely played and the mrudangist and the upa pakka vAdyam more than made up for barely any action from the violinist!
Of course, when a violinist is good, a concert is elevated no end...

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 20 May 2008, 09:42

i dont know about other people, but it irks me when we have some of our topmost carnatic musicians being paid paltry sums compared to middling north indian musicians.. we had a ghazal concert here in LA recently by some Hindustani musician (I dont remember the name) and tickets went for upto 10k for a seat!
This would be unthinkable in a carnatic concert, sadly.
I can only be happy when we have our vidwans, like UKS sir, for example, who is a vidwan's vidwan (vocalists, violinists, and even hindustani artists try to emulate his hardwork and discipline) being paid on par like such.

Plus, mrudangam should have equal pay with violin. Or, the fee should be split 1/3 each person. Can you have a concert without mrudangam? absolutely not. I cannot fathom why mrudangam should be paid less than violin or the vocalist. The concert is a team effort, after all. Try giving a concert without a violin or without a mrudangam and see how successful it is.

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 20 May 2008, 09:51

another thing most of you may not be aware of: out of all the three (violin, vocal, mrudangam), mrudangam is the most expensive and time-consuming. It costs a lot of money to buy the instrument and then maintain it daily and repair it for concerts.

This should also be factored in.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 20 May 2008, 09:58

Well, in the ideal case all artistes on stage ought to get the same remuneration, as it is a team effort. But arguments could be given for and against it. As for concerts without violin/Mrudangam, it is indeed very odd. But, I remember having read somewhere in this forum, that TNS once sang without Mrudangam in a remote location (the Mrudangam artiste could not make it somehow) and I think MC on the violin had to make up for the role of Mrudangam with periodic stresses on the bow (or something to the effect). I am not sure when and where this happened. Remember having read about it somewhere here in the forum.
But, all said and done, accompanists are no doubt very essential to a concert and ought to receive a fairly proportioned remuneration.
Sathej

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 20 May 2008, 10:32

sankirnam wrote:i dont know about other people, but it irks me when we have some of our topmost carnatic musicians being paid paltry sums compared to middling north indian musicians.. we had a ghazal concert here in LA recently by some Hindustani musician (I dont remember the name) and tickets went for upto 10k for a seat!
This would be unthinkable in a carnatic concert, sadly.
I can only be happy when we have our vidwans, like UKS sir, for example, who is a vidwan's vidwan (vocalists, violinists, and even hindustani artists try to emulate his hardwork and discipline) being paid on par like such.

Plus, mrudangam should have equal pay with violin. Or, the fee should be split 1/3 each person. Can you have a concert without mrudangam? absolutely not. I cannot fathom why mrudangam should be paid less than violin or the vocalist. The concert is a team effort, after all. Try giving a concert without a violin or without a mrudangam and see how successful it is.

Dear Sankirnam,
I can say we have only ourselves to blame!
Having both arranged & lost tons of money for over 50 years in Carnatic music I can tell you of one concert tour I arranged- in '71 when Lalgudi-Ramani- Raghvan performed in a POINEERING tour of North America - where EACH artist got one third of the proceeds. The same was true of the '73 tour of Sheikh Chunna Moulana Sahib & '75 tour of TVS& PARTY.
wHILE WE ARE GOOD AT CRITICISM WE ARE NOT GOOD AT BACKING IT UP WITH FINANCIAL SUPPORT.
Highly educated & sophisticated persons simply cannot do the simple fourth form Arithmetic; Also the cynicism is so vast that people have difficulty believing that persons can lose money & still keep arranging these things! I can understand these views in India but it is NO DIFFERENT HERE. vkv

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 20 May 2008, 10:43

Mr. VKV sir, thanks for your insight! Unfortunately I am only 21 and hence not in a position to change anything...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 20 May 2008, 10:54

The difference between Hundustani and carnatic on the world stage is that a few HM musicians have established them selves as world stars, and get paid on that basis. Almost no CM musicians have.

The average westerner has heard of Ravi Shankar, and thinks that that is Indian music, period. If they are keen they may have heard of two or three others, but only the real enthusiasts will ever have heard of carnatic music itself, let alone be able to name a carnatic musician.

The status of carnatic music on the world stage, along with the financial aspects, will not change unless this does. We have no 'stars' that sense.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 20 May 2008, 11:39

Main artiste and the accompanists getting equal remuneration is not fair. Of course accompanists are essential but they are still accompanists. The main artiste is the protaganists and he leads the show. A concert is being organized keeping the main artistes in mind and they choose the accompanists who match their skill . It is never like " the mridangam artistes X has agreed to perform for our sabha so let us go get a good singer and violinist for a show" . It is the main artiste would be the first choice and later comes the accompanists. I quite often see music schedules in dailies where the accompanists are not mentioned. And quite often there is last minute change in the accompanists and it is an acceptable compromise for the audience but unacceptable when the main artiste itself is changed.

The accomapnists are important but the main artistes role is pivotal and he shoulders the show. He chooses the songs , he chooses the raagas and he has to read the pulse of the audience and order or change the songs and sing impromptu. He heeds to the last minute audience requests and every time it is the main artiste and the accompanists can be frivolousto these issues and he only accompanies . Quite a few times I have listened to concerts where the main artiste was too good but with a very average accompaniments. ( A BMK conert 5 years back I remember) . The concert was still good and BMK carried the show and it was like a one many show. But definitely could have been better with a better accompanist.

But imagine a concert with not so good main artiste and excellent accompaniment . I have listened to a few concerts like that and it is catastrophic(A concert of a rich NRI during the season was one that i remember ).

Now the second topic is violin or mridangam.

The violinist work is important and he shoudl be as knowledged as the vocalists or even better both in ragam and talam.

But mridangam is a different entity. Once, I had doubt with a ragam during a concert and I asked a famous veteran mridangam artiste sitting near to me , the name of the raaga being sung and he shrugged his shoulder and said he does not knw. ( the raaga was huseni and that is a popular song). He is an A grade artiste in AIR.
So what is understood and I was told is a mridangam artiste need not know a raagam or raaga lakshanam the very core of the concert.

But both the main artistes and violinist need to know all the raaga lakshanams and shoudl have ample knowledge on kandam , tisram . ekam etc. ....

The violinist faces another challenge when the main artistes sings apoorva raagam and even sometimes sings a small alapana for it. Now the violinist has limited time to grasp it and reproduce it. But this woudl never affect the mridangist.

Some voices have more gamakam and some voices and schools woudl have more brighas in their singing style. The violinsts have to immediately modify their fingerings.

I have sometimes observed the main artistes using frequencies slightly lower than the usual sound of the note and violinists using the right note meaning discrepency and hence he has to adjust immediately .
Maharajapuram school uses tinges of Ni for mohanam is another example and the violinist has to quickly adapt.
The main artistes would have practiced a RTP in a rare raga for days and that is sometimes going to be really new for the violinist and that is another challenge.

sankirnam wrote:another thing most of you may not be aware of: out of all the three (violin, vocal, mrudangam), mrudangam is the most expensive and time-consuming. It costs a lot of money to buy the instrument and then maintain it daily and repair it for concerts.

This should also be factored in.

The cameraman usually owns some of the equipments which is also very expensive and without the camera man there could be no entertainment movies . Does it mean that cameraman of Jackie Chan's movie be paid equal to Jackie since Jackie does not bother to maintain any costly equipments?

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 20 May 2008, 19:57

I feel that the organiser in North America has to treat EVERY ONE of the artists as EQUALLY important for the success of any concert. It has nothing to do with the abilities, conventional pecking order, or who is better than whom. The GREAT GNB did exactly that; LGJ & Palghat Raghu have attested to this publicly. I myself have taken the fantastic Ghatam Vidwan Late Alangudi Ramachandran to a hotel in Luz Corner ( it still exists there) and we shared a Masala Dosai & Coffee when I found out that he was paid Rs.FIVE (HE HAD TO PAY THE Auto-Rikshaw fare out of it). The concert was in Music Academy too! I wasmaking Rs. 85 myself at that time.....
There WAS & is only one GNB not just in music but for fairness. It is incumbent esp. in North America for any one organising concerts to make sure they are fair as it is the livelihood for these artists. This is a PERSONAL statement on my part and I am not representing any organisation. vkv

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 20 May 2008, 22:15

sankirnam wrote:Mr. VKV sir, thanks for your insight! Unfortunately I am only 21 and hence not in a position to change anything...

Dear Sankirnam,
YOU are in the IDEAL POSITION to change the MESS created by the previous generations! Tho' some good things have been done by those generations (to which I belong ) the REAL HOPE is only with this generation of youngsters whose baggage is far less....vkv

srutishree · Post by **srutishree** » 21 May 2008, 05:36

Ganesh_mourthy (comment #29) has hit the nail on the head. In-depth knowledge of raagams is expected from a violinist, but not from a mrudangist. This is not to belittle mrudangists, but just to say that a violinist is expected to be more knowledgeable (in the swaram, saahityam, taalam, and raagam aspects) if s/he is to make a difference to the concert.

Sri VKV -- I wouldn't say that the previous generations left a mess, to be cleaned up by the present generation! It is just that anything can be improved over time, and having an ideal situation where the vocalists and accompanists are paid equitably is a matter of evolution.

ram · Post by **ram** » 21 May 2008, 06:40

My 2 cents. This is just to clear the misconception about a mrudangam artist not needing to know anything about swarams, ragams etc. This is not to take away anything from the hard work and toil that the violin artist needs to put in.

1)

srutishree wrote:Ganesh_mourthy (comment #29) has hit the nail on the head. In-depth knowledge of raagams is expected from a violinist, but not from a mrudangist. This is not to belittle mrudangists, but just to say that a violinist is expected to be more knowledgeable (in the swaram, saahityam, taalam, and raagam aspects) if s/he is to make a difference to the concert.

Oh boy! The balance might be tilted to the violinists side but not so much as portrayed. Knowledge of swarams and ragams on the part of the mrudangam artist can enhance the quality of a mrudangam accompaniment by unimaginable amounts. This is what has probably contributed a lot to the greatness of the "truly great" mrudangam vidwans.

2) Knowledge of an average rasika about melodic accompaniment is generally much more than percussive accompaniment. In other words they can identify bad melodic accompaniment very quickly but almost never identify bad/mediocre mrudangam accompaniment. Even mediocre and bad percussion support tends to get hailed sometimes as "great" and "one of the best they have ever heard", so much so that a mrudangam artist who is able to keep the basic rhythm intact and go along with the song is considered to be very good. Many out there don't even understand the importance of exploiting the harmonic drum that a mrudangam is and how much it can raise the level of percussive support. They just tend to get impressed by whatever they can understand of the mathematics that is involved.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 21 May 2008, 08:48

ram wrote:2) Knowledge of an average rasika about melodic accompaniment is generally much more than percussive accompaniment.

That holds even for a few artistes themselves! Flaws in percussion are rarely noticed and even if noticed, accepted. But a poor melodic accompaniment seldom escapes notice.
Sathej

srutishree · Post by **srutishree** » 21 May 2008, 08:48

Sri Ram,

I fully agree with you. In fact, you spoke my mind in para 2 ("Knowledge of an average rasika ....." etc.).

To digress, I get the impression that vocalists are more fastidious about their choice of violinist, than about their choice of mrudangist. This is probably responsible for the expectation that laya-expertise is more important in a mrudangist than knowledge of raagam.

Again, this is only a generalisation, and as you say, some of the mrudangam legends could have equalled or bettered the vocalists in their delineation of raagams, swarams, etc. (I've heard Vellore Sri Ramabhadran sing, and it was just great.)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 May 2008, 08:50

Ram,
Well said. PMI, Pazhani and their ilk and now UKS, GuruvAyUr Dorai, Vellore Ramabhadran, MannarguDi Easwan and others. It is not possible to play the mrudangam the way they did (do) without their knowledge in music.
Coming down the heirarchy, in two house concerts we had, in the one in India, the violinist was called off for a job interview at the last moment and was unable to come and she suggested a few substitutes.The one who was free, could not play! On the other occasion, here in the US, all my trouble to find a violinist finally yielded a lone one, and he did not play either! Both vocalists braved it, and as luck would have it, both percussionists were very good. The remuneration was the same for both the violinist and the mrudangist. The mrudangam artistes did all the work and one wished that they got paid more!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 21 May 2008, 09:53

I would go one step further than Ram and say that poor rhythmic accompniment is as bad as, if not worse than, mediocre violin....or for that matter a shoddy performance by the main artistes. It is not without reason that some us scout around for "good combinations" during the season...or attend a concert just to listen to UKS, KRM and several others.

Mrudanga vidwans need to have knowledge of krithis to enhance the sangathis...while their focus is usually on the rhythmic structure of the kriti, due emphasis also needs to be paid to sahithya and raga bhava....as Ram astutely points out, the Mrudangam is a melodic instrument. A rock drummer can probably get away by thrashing the hell out of his drum kit...but if a mrudanga vidwan does that..."yaarum pottuka matta!" as UKS once said!

I am personally of the opinion that the compensation split should reflect some sort of a "first among equals" status for the "main" performer...so I'd probably go with 40:30:30 as a rough thumb rule....

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 21 May 2008, 10:04

I think Arasi here is speaking of some exceptions about the US concerts.

by the by, if some percussionists learns raga then it is out of their interest and logically their ears are tuned to since they share the stage seat. Listening to a song a few times is Ok for the percussionist to play according to the mood that the song is set. but knowing raaga and its lakshana does not in any way elevate the percussion and it is simply an exaggeration.

What I am trying to say is, it is impossible for a main artiste or a violinist to participate without understanding tala , but very much possible for a percussionist to follow and accompany without even knowing the arohana and avorahanam of the raagam that the artiste is singing or playing.

Alll shoudl be paid equally from main artiste to morsing is simply the LEFT idea.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 21 May 2008, 11:36

Sorry, g_m, but even id what you say is completely correct, I still would not accept it as reason to underpay a team member that makes a vital contribution to the totality of a concert.

I feel you are also jumping to a conclusion based on a rather small sample. Your mentioned mridangist may not have known raga, very many not only do, but their performance, and thus the concert, is enhanced by their greater knowledge. Many percussionists are even prepared for their work by having a pretty good idea of what song may be about to follow as they listen to the alapana.

In the really good concerts, every player is indispensable; obviously not in the sense that the program couldn't have happened without them, but in that it would have been a markedly different performance.

Carnatic music is team work; accompanists are not faceless members of an orchestra playing from a score, but vital contributors to the whole.

I know there are those who feel they would be getting better music from a literally-solo (alone) performance: let them go to their chosen musician's house and pay him to sing alone!

The very word concert means a number of musicians playing together. Maybe the word kutchery does not have that connotation (someone will tell us!), but even if it is not in the Tamil etymology, I do think that the culture is changing in favour of recognition of the team.

There may be a 'main artist' on stage, but there are not 'second-class' musicians there.

ram · Post by **ram** » 21 May 2008, 11:39

ganesh_mourthy wrote:but knowing raaga and its lakshana does not in any way elevate the percussion and it is simply an exaggeration.

Alll shoudl be paid equally from main artiste to morsing is simply the LEFT idea.

Knowing a raga and its lakshana helps a lot in mrudangam accompaniment and enhances the way you play for songs. It just takes your accompaniment to the next level, if you could term it that way. Lets even leave the raga part behind for the moment; you can commit blunders while accompanying if you are not sensitive to the swaram corresponding to the sahityam being sung at some places - blunders that might appear "great stuff" to many out there, but blunders that will remain blunders.

An example where knowing a raga helps you in accompanying effectively is while playing for compositions that you have never heard before.

I will stop here as it is difficult to explain all this in writing.

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 21 May 2008, 12:45

The mridangam plays a critical role during the singing of niraval - particularly in the slower tempo - providing anchor to both the vocalist and the violinist!

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 21 May 2008, 20:08

Thanks Nick, you've expressed my feelings exactly... a concert is a team effort and hence it is almost a crime to underpay one of the artists

Kutcheri means "court" , as concerts were usually held in the darbar or court of kings and wealthy sponsors, usually lawyers in 19th/early 20th century chennai

I think the first thing that needs to change is the perception that mrudangam/violin are accompanists. It is rooted in the language as well, "pakkavadyam", but as far as the concert is concerned, the 3 artists (vocal, violin, mrudangam) are like 3 legs of the stool, all contribute equally to the success of the concert. People are always saying that vocalist is the main artist. If that is the case, then let him/her try giving a concert without violin and mrudangam. It wont be successful. None of the 3 above (vocal, violin mrudangam) can stand by themselves, they all depend on each other, so I think it is wrong to say that one is "main" and superior to the others or what have you.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 21 May 2008, 20:19

sankirnam wrote:Thanks Nick, you've expressed my feelings exactly... a concert is a team effort and hence it is almost a crime to underpay one of the artists

But these sorts of inequalities are omnipresent, not just in the music industry - it takes a team of cardiac surgeons, anesthetists/anesthesiologists, nurses, OR techs, and cardiologists to function in a seamless fashion to perform an open heart surgery for instance. A goof up by any one could impact the life or the quality of life of the patient in question (the 'negativeness' of this outcome should certainly be more than that of a failed concert), but they are not all paid equally. In fact, to expect all of them to be paid equally would be naive.

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 21 May 2008, 20:46

rshankar wrote:
sankirnam wrote:a concert is a team effort and hence it is almost a crime to underpay one of the artists
But these sorts of inequalities are omnipresent, not just in the music industry -

In fact, to expect all of them to be paid equally would be naive.

While unequal payment is common and will likely continue, underpayment (which to me is the bigger problem) can be eliminated by collective action.

muthukumaran · Post by **muthukumaran** » 21 May 2008, 20:58

While the payment details must remain private, the main bane with CM is "quantity over quality". During the season, the comparison is violin, not how well an artist (vocal, violin, mridangam) performed but rather "how many" each artist got. Hindusthani musicians keep their quantity down and bargain for higher prices and get it. That is why many CM musicians get very well paid when they perform in the North since the appearances are few.
In NA, there is another twist. The main artists feel it is only because of them that the concerts happen and the organizers don't challenge the notion. The main artists will cut every corner to pocket whatever they can out of the paltry amount paid by the organizers. There are many violinists and mridangam players of Indian origin in NA who are in high paying jobs and have had some training back home. They are willing to play for free in most cases and can provide the absolute minimum support. The main artists grab such people. As for kids being trained in NA, most are very ordinary but are again willing to play for free and the main artists give it also a "philanthropic" angle by claiming that "they are encouraging youngsters". In the end, the concert is a disaster but ironically all are happy!
I don't want to sound cynical, but this system will never change and I can only warn artists like Ranjana Swamy and Rohan Krishnamoorthy to join the crowd or else...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 21 May 2008, 22:40

Rshankar's point is perfectly true about many teams having differing pay. I have no idea what the difference in pay of the anaesthetist to the heart surgeon is, though I am sure he is not underpaid. I have also never heard anyone speak with a he's-only-the-anaesthetist attitude! Least of all the surgeon, though I'm quite certain that you'll find egos in that profession that make the vainest musicians look like saints!

But gn.sn42 makes the counter point. Whether we can, or should, expect equal pay to all on stage is doubtful, but the pay can be equitable if not equal.

Until the audience acknowledges the team-nature of the endeavour, I don't believe that there is any chance. Whether they ever say so or not, the actions of those who run away from the thani, or chat through the violinist's alapana say that they do consider these people to be second-class musicians. I think that is very sad.

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 22 May 2008, 05:07

While reading these posts, a question comes up in my mind;of late, there is this trend of many 'pakkaaadyam artists, mainly violinists, learning vocal and switching over to singing. They are very good also. Of course this can not be possible unless they have an innate ability for that. But the trend is more obvious now.
Does it mean that the pakkavaadyam players are turning into main performers? This trend may occur in the upapakkavaadyam players also(if they are good.)
Will there be a time when we have more of main performers and less of of pakkavaadyam players?
Just a question that arose in my mind.No offence meant to anybody.

pranathi · Post by **pranathi** » 27 May 2008, 14:55

My humble opinion is music is divine, the music that is showered by any artiste can not be measured by money. Having said that, most of the time, not so popular artistes but still excellent ones have not been receiving what they truly deserve. It is the responsibiltyof a rasika to donate whatever is in his limits , to sabhas so that the right amount of money goes to the deserving artiste.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 27 May 2008, 16:00

dear pranathi,

Music is indeed divine. But the concert music, the bargaining by artistes for their remuneration, and even after there are litany of discussions about their pay , does their music still retain its divinity?

When someone sings selflessly, only for the Almighty and not for the mortals , oblivious of money that woudl be divine music.

But what is the concert music for ? it is purely for the audience.

If the music platform is divine and so are the artistes , let me humbly put, every work is divine. Let us not quarantine music alone. Seyyum thozhile dheivam

pranathi · Post by **pranathi** » 27 May 2008, 16:06

Dear Ganesh,
What you say makes sense. But many deserving artistes have to bargain because they are paid lower than what they deserve. And, let alone music, pay packages are being bargained by everyone in every field from teaching to software, because they think they deserve better salary. So why point only musicians?