Concerts

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 May 2008, 23:52

Why all this "cannot be done away with"?

The fact that none of these things happen in all concerts shows that they can all be done away with.

--- the sponsors get their name in the newspaper and sometimes in the programme details at the hall. They very often, especially if they happen to be finance companies, have a banner, sometimes even on-stage. They only attend a very few of the events that they sponsor, and it is not often that I have seen them given any momento. They probably do not want such a thing anyway; why would they want their money, which they have given philanthropically for the love of music, and economically for a little advertising, spent on themselves. No need for speeches on account of sponsors.

--- no need to garland artists, or to buy them shawls.

Why not just increase their pay? they cannot eat shawls, and cannot even wear them in this climate; garlands are a complete waste of money, protocol demanding that they must modestly remove them straight away.

There is plenty of opportunity for this kind of ceremony in those events which are functions with music attached, celebrations, releases, honouring of individuals, presentations and so on, and there are plenty of those to go around, so those who want speeches, shawls and garlands need not feel cheated.

---but if we must... have a very few words of thanks to artists (and there are concerts I've been to where I have never found out who one or more accompanist was!) and mention of sponsor, then, as Arasi and Shankar say, before Mangalam is the best, and perhaps only suitable, place for them.

I don't even mind an introduction, so long as it is just that; a welcome and an announcement of names --- but no biographies, please (preceded by the obligatory words, "abc needs no introduction...") and no speeches.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 31 May 2008, 01:28

Why should this happen before the mangaLam, Nick? After the concert is over (after the mangaLam is sung) is the perfect time for these activities - people who do not want to stay and have to leave for other reasons may chose to do so without disrupting anyone, and more importantly, without feeling any sense of 'incompleteness' that one certainly feels when constrained to leave before the concert is over! And nothing declares the end of the concert like the mangaLam does! And guess what, even speeches can go on- who really cares at that point?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 31 May 2008, 02:09

nick.. you mean you don't want to hear one more time about that 1930s weddding kutchery where TN Rajarathnam was playing todi for 6 hours standing up without even a cup of coffee... c'mon... don't be such a spoil sport

manvantara · Post by **manvantara** » 31 May 2008, 02:12

I agree with Nick - I have never understood the idea behind presenting shawls in Madras! And the garlands - let us leave those for the temples.

I think it is best to leave the artiste to conclude the program - with their kritis and mangalam. No need for a vote of thanks or any speech at that point. Often, I find that a concert leaves me in a certain mood (depending on which kriti/raga I liked the best) and I would hate to have that interrupted (so to say) by a speech.

A short, crisp welcome of the artistes (*without* the "abc needs no introduction"!) is usually sufficient.
All too often, the person welcoming the artistes feels it mandatory to praise the artistes sky high and also narrate some anecdote (which might be interesting, but can we hear that later, outside the auditorium please?). I think that the welcome should take no longer than 2-3 minutes.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 31 May 2008, 02:24

It is an established custom throughout the world to praise, recognize and to a give a vote of thanks to singers and organizers. Positive reinforcement is the phrase for that. Audiences need to hear this and perhaps we can include one member from the audience to speak also to represent the rasikas. We all like to hear good things about us from others. I do not see anything wrong with that.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 31 May 2008, 02:46

No, it is not an established custom throughout the world. Anything but.

It happens where committee members get together to enjoy the sound of their own voices, or where someone thinks its smart to emulate a TV program, for instance, but it does not usually happen where serious music is being presented.

Did you ever hear of an opera being interrupted by speeches? Or some woffler "proposing a vote of thanks" (note the very specifically committee language there, nobody in real life, outside a committee room ever "proposed a vote of thanks") to the guy who has just conducted a Mahler symphony for past hour or so?

Music is our positive reinforcement. Woffle is not (although I seem to do quite a lot myself online!). Applause is positive reinforcement, speeches are not.

And yes, I'm very happy to have that suggestion corrected to after mangalam

Or even better, going back to my original position: Zero tolerance for speeches!

(and why, oh why does this ridiculous language of mine spell speak with ea but speech with ee?

)

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 31 May 2008, 03:54

Change the World or India

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 31 May 2008, 04:18

LOL! @ Nick - you will do very well with GBS who held that 'ghoti' should be an acceptable spelling for fish!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 31 May 2008, 04:40

Now, Nick! And Ravi too...
Imagine the plight of the speach (!) loving speekers (!). You want to allot them the time (if at all), after the mangaLam. Who are all going to remain there, you think? The speaker, the commitee, the sound man, jamakkALam man and...?
I said speech before mangaLam because neither the artistes nor the audience stay steeped in the minute long piece. The artistes start thinking about catching the train, audience about their transportation and so on.
Silly as it seems, a timer for the vote of thanks might work! The same individuals if they were to speak on a TV program, go along with the time structure, don't they?
That is why I suppose we like the Season concerts. Very little time for speeches!
About sponsors: not all sponsors in small sabhas have banners with their names on. To recognize their generous gesture is to ask them to give a bouquet (no speech). I have seen this done in Bangalore. And the garland is usually a sandalwood one which you can take home with you. Shawls are another story!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 31 May 2008, 12:32

I don't think all speeches are bad. I particularly liked the late Raga Sudha SVK's brief "sabayorgale" speech when he would compliment the artists, encourage the positive aspects with the youngsters and then announce the upcoming event. Asthika Smajam Narasimhan is also quite entertaining with his reminiscences. I do feel that this privilege is habitually abused by some people and they need to be informed of that.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 31 May 2008, 15:00

I too do not mind the occasional speech/reminiscences. Of course it depends on how the concert is going (sometimes a speech can actually come as a relief!) and how good the speaker is...of course in Nick's case, not knowing the language must add to the irritation...

If we must have speeches, a relatively short one after the main piece, is usually OK with me (especially as it lets me slip out if I need to!) . Definitely not at the beginning...and preferably no more than 2-3 minutes...

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 31 May 2008, 15:03

SVK's speeches were certainly entertaining, if at times, scathing...Srinivasan of Indian Fine Arts is a clownish entertainer in his own right with his Cacophonix-ian attempts at singing..it is fun to watch some of the main artistes egging him on with an evil smile flashed in between winks!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 31 May 2008, 18:03

Yes, there are a very few speakers who are good to listen to --- even without understanding, one can often sense that something worthwhile is being said, one can see it in the eyes of the audience and the performers, for a start.

But it is such an exception, that I'm sticking with the No Speeches cry, knowing that then the best and the worst will survive!

V K Raman, it is not a case of changing the world or India; this is one issue where it is mostly a minority that maintain the custom. Show me an artist that likes being interrupted by speakers; I've seen a few look only a hairsbreadth away from audibly groaning --- but the speaker probably books and pays them, so it is very unlikely that they actually ever will.

As for audiences, the ones that want to listen are those at events I've mentioned before. Just plucking the last one I attended out of the air, the PSP Centenary, I could have listened to those speakers (especially those who spoke in English, of course (Blush)) for longer, and I would have loved to have a LecDem as part of the event.

I actually feel confident that this is one area in which change will happen. How often is it a youngster one sees at the mic?

Of course, tangentially, one has to hope that there are youngsters sufficiently interested in doing that work of organising and booking and running stuff for the next generation.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 31 May 2008, 20:37

While I can appreciate Nick's (and others') sentiments about not having long speeches, etc. I certainly hope we don't reach the day when our CM concerts become very formal affairs like western classical (and to some extent, Hindustani) concerts. That would be stifling indeed. The atmosphere at our concerts is very different from that at an opera or a symphony, and let it remain that way!
The crying babies, running chlldren, people walking out at thani, etc while distracting to the artistes and the serious rasikas, do create a certain atmosphere that's truly ours. Do remember, our concerts used to be held in temples where there were lots of distractions/noises around, and people those days took it all in stride.
The speeches can get tiresome at times, but they are all part of our 'ambience'.
Next thing you will be asking for those badges (worn at many of our functions) to be discarded with!!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 31 May 2008, 21:19

ragam-talam,
I am for 'atmosphere' too. A rapt (at the least, interested) audience is ambiance enough for me. The temple, with all the sounds--even an occasional child's voice is fine by me as well. I do feel though that the temple atmosphere differs from other distractions we speak of. In a centuries-long tradition of concerts in a temple, devotees praying, the chant of the priest, decorated gods and the smell of camphor do not distract. They do provide a rich atmosphere. A 'sAmiyE SaraNam aiyappA' chorus is an exception. On the other hand, human occupations of sharing gossip, stepping on toes, explaining the intricacies of the rAgA while the singing is going on and inane speeches which do not praise the artistes as much as speak of one's own connections with the music world and luminaries at length, is not an ambiance provider for me--sorry!
Agreed. There are a few-only a few-good speakers. We like to hear them. Good organizers need not be good speech givers either. If something has to be said, let the etiquette be that it lasts no more than three minutes. We all seem to more or less agree on that.
As Nick points out, bad speakers THINK that they are good and go on and on. They are oblivious to the facial expressions of the audience.
The artistes, specially the established ones, are screaming within when such speakers labor over what a printed page says of them which the audience has already read. The speakers go on in a 'self important, 'I am privy to it and am eligible to pronounce it' sort of way...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 31 May 2008, 23:13

Do remember, our concerts used to be held in temples where there were lots of distractions/noises around

And someone was explaining to me that the original meaning of kutchery was 'court' --- from the royal patronage of the music.

We adapt to the environment, and despite my stubborn and inflexible online persona, I am pretty adaptable too: I never expect the same ethos at a temple concert, or a wedding concert as a concert-hall or chamber concert. In both of those places, there is a blend of religious and social activity of which the music is simply a part. Similarly, many of the London arangetrams that it was my pleasure to attend were almost as important as international family get-togethers as musical events.

But a proper concert is a proper concert, and I don't think that being expected not to interfere with the enjoyment of others is a call for stifling formality. Part of that, in Western music, is a kind of snobbery --- and although we may not express it in dress code, I'm afraid that exists here too. It is even part of the explanation for the pre-thani departure, the not staying for music that is seen as being less worthy, after the main item.

Bad behaviour is bad behaviour. It does not, as Arasi says so well, add anything to the atmosphere of a concert.

Whatever next: a shrug of the shoulders, and the assertion that "we are like this only"?

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 31 May 2008, 23:36

nick,
Long time back, I raised a query as to how Mridanga (or Tavil) becomes an 'accompaniment'; there is no svara without laya.
AFAIK, in HM, tablA has been given due place.
Who has dictated it otherwise in CM?

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 01 Jun 2008, 05:12

nick H wrote:But a proper concert is a proper concert

Yes, but what's the definition of proper concert? Hopefully not prim and propah!
People seem to want to studio quality music at a concert. That's just not CM, in my opinion.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Jun 2008, 06:42

I have a question. In the same manner as a concert takes place in a concert hall, plays are enacted in auditoriums as well. I have been to two dramas in Chennai in the past forty years! If I remember correctly, there wasn't much of treading of toes or talking. No exodus either. Some laughter in response to funny lines, yes. Even when it comes to dance performances, I don't see much movement (of the mouth too) among audience.
Same culture, same situation...

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 01 Jun 2008, 08:17

Arasi,
vizhikku virundenRAl vizhi moodAmal pArththukkondiruppOm
sevikku uNavendRAl vAi moodAmal pEsikkoNdiruppOm
iyal isai nAtaka rasikargaL nAngaL
iDu engaL piRappurimai.

(All in good humour!)

I typed this in TAMIL using QuillPad-typing in Tamil;but did not know how to send it to this site.bec it asks for a valid e-mail address.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 Jun 2008, 11:15

Arasi, I think you have hot that nail on the head again.

We don't have to define anything, or argue about fine points. We just need people to be polite to one another and to the artists, and we do not need to be bored with irrelevant talk!

I do not see that anyone can seriously argue with either of those points, particularly if they claim to be music lovers.

On the one hand, the music is divine. On the other, it seems, it is perfectly all right to chat through it.

Chennai can learn a lot from London, and, I'm told, many other foreign places --- where Tamil audiences sit quietly, and with attention, through their carnatic concerts.

Maybe the fact that they pay a comparatively very high price for their tickets has something to do with that. In some ways I do not think it is good for music that Chennai gets so much for free!

(but I'm not arguing to change that!)

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 01 Jun 2008, 11:53

Just to add perspective, concerts in the west are not always prim and proper affairs...I am, of course, talking about rock concerts! I guess a lot depends on a certain shared understanding of decorum which is probably lacking in the CM audience. Those who are in the auditorium to gossip and network are unlikely to appreciate the viewpoint of "rasikas"...and vice versa...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Jun 2008, 23:18

Vijay,
Said it like Vijay: 'A certain shared understanding of decorum' it is! Nick is nodding his head emphatically to this.
Yes, let's leave the gossipers and networking gents (?) out of it. They may not learn, but let them be alerted of the trouble they cause. Hopefully, they would move to venues other than concert halls!

Punarvasu,
Your verse was fun too.

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 03 Jun 2008, 02:14

what do vocalists or violinists do with shawls after they receive them? I mean, most mrudangists can convert the shawls into "clepes" or covers for their mrudangams, but what can vocalists or violinsts do with them? Probably stitch them into dresses for their kids, haha.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 03 Jun 2008, 02:42

sankirnam wrote:Probably stitch them into dresses for their kids, haha.

Oh yuck! Poor kids! How about drapes? Much better use than outfits for the kids.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Jun 2008, 07:20

They can give them to elders in the family.
Ravi, you also see shiny gold-thread woven stuff used as shawls which are suitable for dresses for little girls. Only thing is, they may 'disintegrate' when you wash them! Also, they won't pass the grade when it comes to current fashion...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Jun 2008, 10:00

Here is an idea. Like store gift cards, let there be store gift shawls, exchangeable for goods of one's choice for a predetermined value. This way we can still keep the tradition of honoring the artist with a shawl but the artist is not stuck with a closet full of shawls.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 03 Jun 2008, 19:18

I've often wondered if some of the artists have 'arrangements' with shops!

Also, they won't pass the grade when it comes to current fashion...

Organisers? Are you listening? More Denim shawls please!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 03 Jun 2008, 19:42

LOL @ NIck!

Nick,

In these days, when children's fashion trends (I specifically mean those of pre-teen girls) are being set (by and large) by the likes of Limited Too, Justice for Girls, and Juicy Couture, I think the organizers will find that just denim shawls will be deemed OMG! boring! A mix and match is likely to be more successful - but the bottom line is that there is no pleasing the ultra-fickle young these days!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 04 Jun 2008, 02:03

nick H wrote:More Denim shawls please!

Has any CM artiste performed wearing trousers/jeans? Or even kurta/pyjama?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Jun 2008, 00:16

A few have been known to performm in saris!

And I should be very surprised if kurta/pyjama or salwar kameez had never been seen on a concert stage. Would a Chennai audience find it so terribly shocking, do you think?

I only ask... I'm terribly old-fashioned in both my dress sense and my dress preference --- I'll probably still be wearing a vesti in Chennai when all the Mylapore Men have long-since left it behind.

Although it probably wouldn't surprise anyone to know that I have also, at times in my lfe, utterly ignored "dress code".

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Jun 2008, 00:20

rshankar wrote:LOL @ NIck!

Nick,

In these days, when children's fashion trends (I specifically mean those of pre-teen girls) are being set (by and large) by the likes of Limited Too, Justice for Girls, and Juicy Couture, I think the organizers will find that just denim shawls will be deemed OMG! boring! A mix and match is likely to be more successful - but the bottom line is that there is no pleasing the ultra-fickle young these days!

I'm glad to say that I can't match your expertise on this. In fact, even using Denim as my example probably makes me sound very old-fashioned.

But, talking of fashion for the very young, I am not sorry to see that the Frilly Party Frock seems to have died a death.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 05 Jun 2008, 00:24

Many CM artistes do wear northern kurtAs with vEshTi.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 07 Jun 2008, 19:59

Apparently, audience behaviour is subject to much discussion in the West as well. A Microsoft blogger narrates his experience here:

http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archi ... 26237.aspx

And the comments in the aforementioned blog post follow a tone very similar to that in this thread.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Jun 2008, 20:38

Girish-a,
Hilarious situations, annoying moments and some good solutions too.
Yes, the cell phone menace (loved the sports arena one: answer that phone and say you are on your way out!).
Yes, the problem is universal. However, the percentage of such behavior is minimal in a classical concert hall in the west. Still, look at the spate of responses!
The only thing in defense of the coughers I would say is that they are elders who grew up loving the music and simply can't stay away! Give me those any day to the 'can help it' distracting elements...

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 07 Jun 2008, 22:31

arasi wrote:... the percentage of such behavior is minimal in a classical concert hall in the west.

Perhaps so (though experiences vary), but you might find this book review (and the book reviewed) interesting:

"Concertgoers, Please Clap, Talk or Shout at Any Time" by Bernard Holland, New York Times 08 Jan 2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/08/arts/ ... 8audi.html

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Jun 2008, 22:39

Ha Ha, girish-a --- so I guess that just about finishes my expection of better behaviour from Indian people listening to Indian music, then? Oh well...

But I'm not so hard as to expect people not to cough. It's nice if they can make an effort, but I spent five of my music-loving years with a chronic chest problem. I wouldn't have liked to have been banned from the concert halls for it. I agree with Arasi, it is a can't-help-it more than a plain rudeness.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Jun 2008, 22:53

gn, that was a fascinating and enjoyable article, and one that underlined the thinking alredy expressed here that music should not sterile, that audiences should not just be stiff and dumb.

In this respect, I think the carnatic concert has a good balance. The audience is expected to react, but it is not expected to interfere. Whilst there are, of course, those whose clucking is a little too frequent, or whose sabash is a little too loud, and one suspects that they want as much attention as the performer is getting, the murmurs, sounds and words of approval are a part of our concerts.

It is very simple not to do that which disturbs one's neighbour.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 07 Jun 2008, 23:11

Live and let live, I say.
The CD generation of today seems to demand squeaky clean quality in their music, so they can't bear even a whiff of disturbance. Those who are used to noise-laden tape music and have sat in concerts of yesteryears where there was more of a festival atmosphere, are a bit more forgiving of all this.
Perhaps they should provide a sitting gallery in studios where these puritans can sit and listen to recordings in pristine quality. Oh no, some of the people there may cough/sneeze/belch... Ah, they can put on headphones and sit in their world.
Not me, though.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 08 Jun 2008, 00:00

Here comes my school and I wish there are many like you ragam-talam without telling the society how to live, love, learn and leave legacy.

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 08 Jun 2008, 01:25

Late vaiNika chitii bAbu used to wear Indian pajAmA and kurta on stage while playing his vINA

bala747 · Post by **bala747** » 11 Jun 2008, 20:57

Actually people getting up and leaving is not as big an issue to me as people in front seats yelling requests at the artistes to sing some tukkada they have heard five thousand times from the same artiste or others. (Jagajjanani and Kurai onrum illai come to mind). Maybe I am being fussy but I don't really think the artiste on stage is a jukebox you slide a coin into to play your song.

But having said that, I remember MMI's concerts when half the audience would yell out "Eppo varuvaro! Eppo varuvaro!" and cheer (not clap but cheer!). But I would suppose that is because back then the only way to hear Eppo Varuvaro was to go to an MMI concert so it can be justified, but in this day and age with so many concerts available on CD/DVD?

Just my $0.02.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Jun 2008, 00:18

VK RAMAN wrote:Here comes my school and I wish there are many like you ragam-talam without telling the society how to live, love, learn and leave legacy.

If you actually enjoy speeches... well,I guess someone must, occasionally, apart from the guy doing the speaking, so I wish you joy of them; they'll be around a few years yet

However, if you support the bad behaviour of children with no manners, be they 8, 80 or any age in between, then I, and many others, don't.

Bala, I guess that must be an annoyance to those who have attended many more concerts than I have --- we tend to focus on different things, I suppose. I'd rather let an artist move, self-willed, through their own performance, but there is room for requests sometimes.