arasi wrote:In times when maDisAr is for models to wear in ads and for actresses on TV serials to sport, and when salwar kameez combo is as decent as a madisAr as opposed to modern day blouses for saris, one has to accept that it all happens in the natural passage of time. MD himself might have thought of his introducing HM rAgAs into CM as an innovation, an excercise for making new inroads. If so, he might be mighty disappointed to be thought of as a conservative when it came to rAgA exploration...
The treatment of HM ragas in CM is distinctly different from the treatment of the same ragas in HM.
That is why I said Sri Deekshithar clothed these ragas in madisar.
If you want a rendum-kettan way of rendering HM ragas, turn to your current city of residence, viz., Bangalore. The Karnataka style of rendering HM ragas is farther from the CM style yet without quite being the HM style.
arasi wrote:We don't bat an eye when sindhu bhairavi or a dES is presented in a concert. How did old timers react to them, I wonder.
Thanjavur Sankara Iyer did mention once that his "Rama Namame Thudi Maname" in Desh didn't get a very warm reception...it was his first composition. Perhaps musicians felt that he should have turned his attempts to a traditional Carnatic raga.
Interesting post, Harimau.
Wonder if that was the reason he switched to CM rAgAs. If only someone who knows TSI can ask him about it...
Again, how old was he then? My very first effort was in my teens and it was in mAlkauns--hindustAni rAgAs (and of course, film songs influence) must have spurred me to sing it in mAlkauns!
harimau wrote:Thanjavur Sankara Iyer did mention once that his "Rama Namame Thudi Maname" in Desh didn't get a very warm reception...it was his first composition. Perhaps musicians felt that he should have turned his attempts to a traditional Carnatic raga.
There isn't much hype over his composition in Charukesi either, which makes me wonder if it suffered a similar fate, as the Desh initially did. I suppose Charukesi is the sort of attempt musicians would have preferred though.
Last edited by Vocalist on 23 Feb 2008, 16:18, edited 1 time in total.
Regarding the Jonpuri or Patdeep, Bageswari RTP; these ideas are not new.
There is a Flute Mali concert with Jonpuri - RTP at sangeethapriya
Last year, TN Seshagopalan sang a superb Bageswari RTP - "Somasundareswara VamaBage Sri" .
TV Sankaranarayanan used to regale audiences with RTP in small ragas - Hamsanandhi, Thilang, Behag, Ranjani, Surya ?. ...
The problem with these small raga RTP is - it looks like a Thukkada and does not the grandeur of a pallavi. With concert time limitations, 2 hrs 30 min, the artists have to rush for a small pallavi.
I prefer RTPs in big ragas - Kamboji, Thodi - I am tired of these big ragas - like Curd rice for dinner.
I would assume Sanjay Jonpuri would have been very good. I have heard Sanjay render an excellent slokam in Jonpuri - Janathi Rama Thava nama Ruchim followed by a moving presentation of Dasaratha Sutha ... (that too when his voice was strained due to chest cold).
Sanjay's rendition of Jonpuri Thirupugaz - Malasai Kopam (of Alathur Brother's fame) is also very good.
Mukthi Alikkum (Navroj) is another Alathur Brothers' classic.
Coolji, Thanks for the upload of Patdeep, it is so good to hear first thing in the morning..., and now I wonder how would it be to listen to Sanjay's version. Can't wait to hear. Please someone upload the same. Thanks.
Annamalai - these are "small ragas" only in CM. Bageshri, Jonpuri, Behag et al are some of the biggies in HM. The point about Sanjay's RTPs in these ragas (Bageshri and Patdeep at least) is that 1) the CM flavour is not lost and 2) They are elaborate affairs - typically the longest item (minus tani) in the concert.
Small or Big...
The fact that it is Unchartered territory ,matters the most.
That is what is Hindusthaniish about the whole affair.
This particular effort by Sanjay, is indeed a stupendous one.
Patdeep at its best.
I agree with cienu. Like people have mentioned, I don't suspect for a minute that Hindusthani ragas will displace hardcore Carnatic ones, but they do enrich our music. Hindusthani ragas that have been incorporated into Carnatic music, like Dwijavanthi, are such an integral part of our music... Why must we deny them entry?
thanks cml
I have incorporated this link in my original post with Shivanand patils track.
Karthik.
Thanks.I Stand corrected.
Sigh !
SD Burman..
Will there be another , like them ?!
Last edited by coolkarni on 02 Mar 2008, 06:28, edited 1 time in total.
CML, I am still trying to get a grasp of the personality of Patdeep. So far I have gotten as far as 'It has got shades of Karnataka Devagandhari and Kapi' and I have not yet quite integrated it into a separate identity. I was looking for any of that in that Ilaraja film song I could not detect any. Is that really Patdeep?
VK
Note that Patdeep is the shuddhamadhyamam version of madhuvanti. Perhaps that will help if you know madhuvanti well enough. Ilayaraja takes a lot of liberties and hence it will be difficult to pin him down!
CML, I did not anything approaching it from the madhuvanthi direction either.
BTW, if it is patdeep and Ilayaraja has taken liberties with it, how did you even latch on to patdeep in this song? I have to admit that I can not find even the well known ragas in film music in such 'interpreted' creations.
Yes CML must have very keen ears to detect Patdeep in that clip. I myself would have struggled if the raga had not already been identified...BTW, one need not take "liberties" for it to sound different...it could be perfectly within the grammar yet sound totally different if rid of the gamakas.
Then again, a film musician is only concerned with a catchy melody and not about the character of a raga (raga bhava) - it is possible for a musician to coin an entirely original tune which just "happens" to fall under some scale.
Guys
My raga sense is low-ranking. I once heard IR in an interview mention that in addition to all the 72 melas he has composed in a number of HM ragas and this song was mentioned as of Patdeep. Now I have a special fascination for this raga which allies to several CM ragas (abheri, gowrimanohari , etc.,) but has a unique appeal. I wonder whether this is one of the ragas which Tansen used to light a failing lamp! Coolkarnii can tell us the story.
I am amazed at the versatility of Sanjay who has fully imported this raga into CM and hope more compositions will surface. Reminds me of MD importing Sohini into CM which has become a key CM Raga! Waiting for Ramraj to get well to prod him
Yes Arasi, I too think it was Deepak. IIRC Tansen was asked to sing this raga by a rival who knew it would cause him to overheat and die. Tansen had his students sing Megh(?) to counter its effects but it didn't work and he perished. BTW is this raga still in vogue in HM? And is it related to CM Dipakam? GNB's Kalalanerchina is certainly a scorching rendition!
I believe Charukeshi was popularized in HM in the latter part of the 20th century, and more and more Hindustani musicians started playing the raga. There's a raga import happening the other way round - from Carnatic to Hindustani, rather than the other way round, as we have been discussing so far.
Raga Patdeep, instantly brings to memory an incident . One of the living genius / legends, composed a Tillana on the spot, ,extempore on stage in this raga ,acceeding to rasika request and drew a huge approbation !
I'm sure this "brilliant rasika" group will guess this artist right !!
rajesh_rs wrote:I believe Charukeshi was popularized in HM in the latter part of the 20th century, and more and more Hindustani musicians started playing the raga. There's a raga import happening the other way round - from Carnatic to Hindustani, rather than the other way round, as we have been discussing so far.
I think there are several ragas like Hamsadhwani, Kiravani, etc that have been adopted by Hindustani music from Carnatic. These ragas are mainly the scalar ragas and unfortunately they have avoided adopting some of our traditional Carnatic classics like Natakurinji, Begada and Bhairavi and Thodi.
