I am planning to teach the following verses from paTTinatAr tirupADal tiraTTu as a virutam to some of my students for a forthcoming program.
While I understand the meaning of almost every line, I am at a loss when it comes to the line 'tuNi tarum kuppai'; don't know what the 'kuppai' refers to ? Is that an adjective to 'toNdu anbar' ? still does not make sense to me:(
Any tamil pandits out there who can help ?
சோறிடும்நாடு, துணிதருங் குப்பை தொண்டன்பரைக்கண்டு
ஏறிடுங்கைகள் இறங்கிடுந் தீவினை, எப்பொழுதும்
நீறிடும் மேனியர் சிற்றம்பலவர் நிருத்தம்கண்டால்
ஊறிடுங் கண்கள் உருகிடும்நெஞ்சமென் னுள்ளமுமே.
அத்தனை, முப்பத்து முக்கோடி தேவர்க் கதிபதியை
நித்தனை, அம்மை சிவகாமசுந்தரி நேசனை, யெம்
கூத்தனைப் பொன்னம் பலத்தாடு மையனைக் காணக்கண்கள்
எத்தனை கோடி யுகமோ தவஞ்செய் திருக்கின்றவே
thanks
Ramnath
( mod note: Can Ramnath or someone else provide the transliteration please. Thanks )
meaning for a paTTinatAr verse
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vidya
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Ramnath,
No, kuppai is not an adjective to thoNDanbar it is a generic word for cotton. This is how I'd understand the verse:
(soRiDum nADu- food giving nation) (thuNi tarum kuppai - clothe-giving cotton) (thoNdanbar - servitors). So food-giving nation, clothe-giving cotton and servitors - all being worthy of respect. kuppai is a variety of cotton as in kuppai-parutti. This is not a word that one would commonly find in Tamil dictionaries but is more commonly found in the nighaNtus/ lexicons.Also note that Siddhar padalgal would have some degree of colloquialism in the usage of words than other genres.
No, kuppai is not an adjective to thoNDanbar it is a generic word for cotton. This is how I'd understand the verse:
(soRiDum nADu- food giving nation) (thuNi tarum kuppai - clothe-giving cotton) (thoNdanbar - servitors). So food-giving nation, clothe-giving cotton and servitors - all being worthy of respect. kuppai is a variety of cotton as in kuppai-parutti. This is not a word that one would commonly find in Tamil dictionaries but is more commonly found in the nighaNtus/ lexicons.Also note that Siddhar padalgal would have some degree of colloquialism in the usage of words than other genres.
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erode14
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the keerai, kuppaimEni is also called "akkinichivam" (agni-sivam).
since, the verses come under the heading, thiruththillai, thuNi tharum kuppai, may be, the quality of natarAjA, who gives courage...
since, the verses come under the heading, thiruththillai, thuNi tharum kuppai, may be, the quality of natarAjA, who gives courage...
Last edited by erode14 on 18 Jul 2008, 00:49, edited 1 time in total.
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arasi
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PUNARVASU
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TransliterationRamnath Iyer wrote:I am planning to teach the following verses from paTTinatAr tirupADal tiraTTu as a virutam to some of my students for a forthcoming program.
While I understand the meaning of almost every line, I am at a loss when it comes to the line 'tuNi tarum kuppai'; don't know what the 'kuppai' refers to ? Is that an adjective to 'toNdu anbar' ? still does not make sense to me:(
Any tamil pandits out there who can help ?
சோறிடும்நாடு, துணிதருங் குப்பை தொண்டன்பரைக்கண்டு
ஏறிடுங்கைகள் இறங்கிடுந் தீவினை, எப்பொழுதும்
நீறிடும் மேனியர் சிற்றம்பலவர் நிருத்தம்கண்டால்
ஊறிடுங் கண்கள் உருகிடும்நெஞ்சமென் னுள்ளமுமே.
அத்தனை, முப்பத்து முக்கோடி தேவர்க் கதிபதியை
நித்தனை, அம்மை சிவகாமசுந்தரி நேசனை, யெம்
கூத்தனைப் பொன்னம் பலத்தாடு மையனைக் காணக்கண்கள்
எத்தனை கோடி யுகமோ தவஞ்செய் திருக்கின்றவே
thanks
Ramnath
( mod note: Can Ramnath or someone else provide the transliteration please. Thanks )
sORidum nAdu, tuNitarunkuppai toNdaranbaraikkaNdu
ERidunkaigaL irangiduntIvinai, eppozhudum
nIRidum mEniyar citRambalavar niruttam kaNdAl
URidunkaNgal urugidum nenjamennuLLamumE
attanai, muppattu mukkOdi dEvarkkadipathiyai
nittanai ammai sivkAmasundari nEsanai, em
kUttanaipponnambalattAdumaiyanaik kANakkaNgaL
ettani kOdi yugamO tavncheydirukkinRanavE.
In certain places like
துணிதருங் குப்பை, ஏறிடுங்கைகள் இறங்கிடுந் தீவினை, ஊறிடுங் கண்கள், தவஞ்செய்
due to the compound word, (sandhi) , I have used letters like 'n' instead of 'm'.
Hope this is helpful for those who can not read Tamil
Last edited by PUNARVASU on 18 Jul 2008, 02:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Ramnath Iyer
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rshankar
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So, is this how the name 'kuppuswami' is derived?erode14 wrote:the keerai, kuppaimEni is also called "akkinichivam" (agni-sivam).
since, the verses come under the heading, thiruththillai, thuNi tharum kuppai, may be, the quality of natarAjA, who gives courage...
Vidy and Sri Nagaraj - this is an awesome discussion.
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PUNARVASU
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rshankar,
sometimes the easiest way out never occurs to us; probably like the scientist who made two doors- big one for the big cat and small one for the small cat-to exit. Ofcourse I am not comparing myself to the genius!.
'Obvious' things are not so obvious sometimes.
sometimes the easiest way out never occurs to us; probably like the scientist who made two doors- big one for the big cat and small one for the small cat-to exit. Ofcourse I am not comparing myself to the genius!.
'Obvious' things are not so obvious sometimes.
Last edited by PUNARVASU on 18 Jul 2008, 19:32, edited 1 time in total.
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PUNARVASU
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There is also another herb called 'satakuppai'; it somewhat looks like a combinations of small saunf like things with lots of small bits and pieces of tiny sticks-'kuchis'. We make 'kashayam' out of it. It is available in the 'nattu marundu' stores, like 'dappa chetty' in mylapore. Since the discussion is on the word 'kuppai' I thought I will write about this.
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arasi
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vidya
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Folks I stand corrected on this - after verification with a few more experts/ poets .Thanks to Mr.Harikrishnan and Dr.Pasupathy of the santhavasantham group for giving insight into this. Sometimes one can't see the forest for the trees 
- First mI.pa.Somu in his siddhar pAdal tirattu volume 3 interprets it as 'kuppaiyilirindu thuni kidaikkiradu'. From kuppai - garbage heap they get their clothing.
- Second the word in verse two should be kattanai (ie karttanai) and not kUttanai to rhyme with ettanai,nittanai and attanai. kUthanai results in incorrect eTukai - For eTukai the time measure of the first syllable should be the same. so kUttanai is obviously incorrect here and the printed version of the book it is given as 'kattanai'.
Anyway what was the chief point I missed in here?
That, this verse was written by a renunciate -a wanderer who wears a kaupInam or a loin cloth. so kuppai as cotton and the kuppai keerai meaning does'nt work with the rest of the context. It is this renunciate lifestyle that is mentioned in the verse.He lists the poignant moments when even a renunciate whose needs are few and who normally has learnt to keep their emotions under check is moved emotionally. Otherwise why would Pattinattar a wandering mendicant who considered every material posession as a burden be thankful for clothing more so given the fact that all he wore was a kaupInam? So the sights/events that move a (Saivite ) renunciate emotionally(urukidum nenjam and uLLam) and wells their eyes with tears (URidum kangkaL) include:
- A kind stranger offering them food as they wander from place to place - the food that they obtain as alms.
- For clothing all they need is a piece of loin cloth or kaupIna that they pick up on the street from essentially a garbage dump. So thuNi tarum kuppai that provides them with that minimal material need.
- When servitors are worshipped with folded hands thus causing thIvinai to be warded off
- The celestial dance of Siva
- Those whose body is smeared with holy ashes
So thuni is clothing here but kuppai is what it is - the obvious meaning.
- First mI.pa.Somu in his siddhar pAdal tirattu volume 3 interprets it as 'kuppaiyilirindu thuni kidaikkiradu'. From kuppai - garbage heap they get their clothing.
- Second the word in verse two should be kattanai (ie karttanai) and not kUttanai to rhyme with ettanai,nittanai and attanai. kUthanai results in incorrect eTukai - For eTukai the time measure of the first syllable should be the same. so kUttanai is obviously incorrect here and the printed version of the book it is given as 'kattanai'.
Anyway what was the chief point I missed in here?
That, this verse was written by a renunciate -a wanderer who wears a kaupInam or a loin cloth. so kuppai as cotton and the kuppai keerai meaning does'nt work with the rest of the context. It is this renunciate lifestyle that is mentioned in the verse.He lists the poignant moments when even a renunciate whose needs are few and who normally has learnt to keep their emotions under check is moved emotionally. Otherwise why would Pattinattar a wandering mendicant who considered every material posession as a burden be thankful for clothing more so given the fact that all he wore was a kaupInam? So the sights/events that move a (Saivite ) renunciate emotionally(urukidum nenjam and uLLam) and wells their eyes with tears (URidum kangkaL) include:
- A kind stranger offering them food as they wander from place to place - the food that they obtain as alms.
- For clothing all they need is a piece of loin cloth or kaupIna that they pick up on the street from essentially a garbage dump. So thuNi tarum kuppai that provides them with that minimal material need.
- When servitors are worshipped with folded hands thus causing thIvinai to be warded off
- The celestial dance of Siva
- Those whose body is smeared with holy ashes
So thuni is clothing here but kuppai is what it is - the obvious meaning.
Last edited by vidya on 18 Jul 2008, 21:22, edited 1 time in total.
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arasi
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Vidya,
Thank you for your research. I cannot go against what the scholars say--and yet, your previous post with the meaning cotton for 'kuppai' still appeals to me. These were men who did not go scavenging in city dumps or picked at the garbage. They existed far from the madding crowds, living a life in communion with Nature. If they were given alms of food when they did meet with the villagers or townsmen, surely, they would have been given pieces of cloth too. By local weavers too? Walking by cotton fields would have made this particular mendicant sing about it too. Rice to eat and a piece of clothing, however minimal, coming from the fluffy seed heads of the plants he would have seen. This impression of mine breaks the rules of grammar perhaps, but then again, is that how a poet's or mendicant's mind works, grammar first on their minds...
Thank you for your research. I cannot go against what the scholars say--and yet, your previous post with the meaning cotton for 'kuppai' still appeals to me. These were men who did not go scavenging in city dumps or picked at the garbage. They existed far from the madding crowds, living a life in communion with Nature. If they were given alms of food when they did meet with the villagers or townsmen, surely, they would have been given pieces of cloth too. By local weavers too? Walking by cotton fields would have made this particular mendicant sing about it too. Rice to eat and a piece of clothing, however minimal, coming from the fluffy seed heads of the plants he would have seen. This impression of mine breaks the rules of grammar perhaps, but then again, is that how a poet's or mendicant's mind works, grammar first on their minds...