are we too relaxed with shruthi????

[ganesh_mourthy]

When Hindustani concentrates more on shruti alignment, are we not too relaxed about this?? The excuse that we have is microtones or anuswaram, but i feel that it is been overtly used you may not know which are the swaras the musician is gliding on. It is usually a guess work and with experience that our ears believe as we familiarize the raaga. I have heard even those days Jambabaans singing out of shruti. Even these days veterans sing so often. When something like this is belittled in the north , it is well accepted in south. Should we not limit the amount of tiresome oscillations and to more soothing music?
I mean, more stress on to shruti alignment?

[vasanthakokilam]

Should we not limit the amount of tiresome oscillations and to more soothing music?
I mean, more stress on to shruti alignment?

Both Shruti alignment and oscillations are needed. Without oscillations there is no begada.. Without sruthi alignment, there is still no begada.

[ganesh_mourthy]

yes vasanthakokilam. yes. I accept.but what I am conveying here is overt use . sometimes you could see the musicians not aligning in even sa properly at times when all swarams are oscillated. do I need to mention some stalwarts of those days days and even these days going completely off track and still a big crowd puller.we have great level of tolerance.

[rshankar]

Both Shruti alignment and oscillations are needed. Without oscillations there is no begada.. Without sruthi alignment, there is still no begada.

I guess it would be bigaDA, and not bEgaDA if that were to happen!

[srikant1987]

Graces are not as such a cause of shruti misalignment. It lies with speed. And lack of practice, especially at slower speeds.

In fact, I find it difficult to get perfect shruti shuddham when I play the mOhanam varNam extremely slowly, but at a "normal" speed, I find it effortless.

There is no denying that when we play or sing faster, our shruti becomes more erratic. Only no one notices. A trained ear can notice shruti flaws in faster music, but it can notice even more shruti flaws in the same music played slowly. Our hands and mouth rely on our ears for shruti alignment during practice. So practising at slow speeds can increase shruti shuddham.

[uday_shankar]

Should we not limit the amount of tiresome oscillations and to more soothing music?

If you find Carnatic music often not so soothing and full of tiresome oscillations, that's a valid opinion. I share your sentiments completely . Let it be said that there's a great opportunity in Carnatic music for vidvans to fill the great void of "soothing" music.

But it's a free world and people are free to sing whatever they want and listen to whatever they want. So who's the "we" who dictates what "should" be limited ?! There's no "shoulds" in this world except that one "should" be true to oneself .

vk,
MMI sang with minimal oscillations and yet managed to bring out rAga swaroopa very well. Incuding begada. Often much better than others full of oscillations .

[sureshvv]

I have heard even those days Jambabaans singing out of shruti. Even these days veterans sing so often. When something like this is belittled in the north , it is well accepted in south. Should we not limit the amount of tiresome oscillations and to more soothing music?
I mean, more stress on to shruti alignment?

We like our Jambabaans(sic).

Many attending these concerts are not hearing just the music that the artiste is singing at that moment, instead in their mind they are hearing the artiste (or for some, their guru) as they were singing on their heyday.

[ganesh_mourthy]

many reasons to fend for shruti non aligment but Not a single for shruti alignment

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, ganesh_mouthy, That is why while the audience for Karnataka-music arer decreasing day-by-day the audience for Hindusthani-music are increasing day-by-day. Of course, our people are not ready to agree with. amsharma.

[vasanthakokilam]

ganesh_mourthy, I think you misunderstood. I am all for 100% sruthi alignment ( who is not? ). I was just pointing out you are setting up a false dichotomy between sruthi and oscillations. I would be the first one to join you in calling for maintining perfect sruthi throughout a concert thus producing peaceful and enjoyable music. I agree with Uday that every artist should strive for the quality level achieved by MMI.

Sri. msakella is the foremost master at discovering and documenting the oscillations in carnatic music ( http://sangeethamshare.org/chandra/AMS- ... -items.pdf ) and he is also a great advocate of Sruthi Suddham in carnatic music, having strived hard to perfect the sruthi box. So I defer to him to talk about this topic.

[sureshvv]

many reasons to fend for shruti non aligment but Not a single for shruti alignment

You misunderstand. I am not fending for "shruti non alignment". I am fending for the Jambabaans [sic!].

[cienu]

Many attending these concerts are not hearing just the music that the artiste is singing at that moment, instead in their mind they are hearing the artiste (or for some, their guru) as they were singing on their heyday.

sureshvv. Well said. I endorse your view on the above point completely I remember reading an interesting thread wherein Uday states that Semmangudi Mama/GNB sometimes used to miss their targeted Swarasthanas, but the audience used to adore them nevertheless

This is not to say that I disagree with Ganesh. After all "Sruti Mata Laya Pita" is what we teach our children when they commence learning CM. Somewhere down the line maybe we lose our way vis a vis Sruthi.

The following 3 links would surely be very interesting. The first 2 are articles by Gowri Ramnarayan in "The Hindu" and the last link is with reference to a reply by TMK. Please read them in the same sequence as below.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mag/ ... 290500.htm
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mp/2 ... 180500.htm
http://www.thehindu.com/mp/2007/11/17/s ... 470800.htm

[arasi]

Cienu,
Just in time!
What powerful statements in Gowri Ramnarayan's first article, eliciting TMK's response!
Anil Srinivasan and Gurucharan's efforts are indeed a new branching out (branching in??) in CM. An experiment worth watching.
Am I right in assuming that they did not include the sanga kAla piece that day? It is there on the CD and I thought it was very moving when I heard it....

[ganesh_mourthy]

vasanthakokilam, I am afraid , you have missed msakella sir's opinion on this. he has already answered. there is always a dearth of shruthi alighment in our music system. It is usually said that HM sing with shruthi, wheras CM sing along the shruthi.

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, ganesh-mourthy, A slight modification – while CM is sung along with Shruti HM is sung in Shruti. amsharma.

[knandago2001]

be it a performance of dhrupad or khayal, there is a necessarily measured progression from vilambit through madhya laya to drut during each phase of vistaar. my feeling is that this sequence gives the singer's voice and the listner's ear time to "warm up" to sruti. contemporary CM performance may not focus much by way of vilamba kalapramana, giving the impression of "a dearth of sruti alignment"

[arasi]

nandagopal,
And the very slow progression..does it help in getting aligned to the sruti more easily? As when a CM vocalist does his akAra varisai in a leisurely manner?
The other aspect is the format itself, which is densely packed with tightly knit lyrical passages, that too, a lot of them in succession.
That is why when a rAgam is sung at length, we hear the CM singer blending with the sruti more.
This isn't an anaysis but a lay rasikA's impression...

[srikant1987]

my feeling is that this sequence gives the singer's voice and the listner's ear time to "warm up" to sruti.

At last someone who agrees with me.

AlApanais are typically supposed to be vilamba kAlam-rich, which is why singing a long AlApanai helps in shruti alignment. However, when an artist attempts fast phrases and brighas too early in the AlApanai, shruti alignment maybe lost.

Also, these days many people sing just two or three Avartanams of slow svarams and are in a hurry to go to fast svarams and throw in some korvais. Even neravals are becoming rare and shorter, in the rush for korvais.

Slow practice is very important. The ear figures out mistakes better from slow music, and hence vocal chords and the fingers get trained more effectively in slow practice. Once trained in shruti like this, scaling up the speed is more of an exercise for the vocal chords and the fingers. Big, carefully structured AlApanais regenerate this training for the vocal chords and fingers, like a revision.

[cacm]

When Hindustani concentrates more on shruti alignment, are we not too relaxed about this?? The excuse that we have is microtones or anuswaram, but i feel that it is been overtly used you may not know which are the swaras the musician is gliding on. It is usually a guess work and with experience that our ears believe as we familiarize the raaga. I have heard even those days Jambabaans singing out of shruti. Even these days veterans sing so often. When something like this is belittled in the north , it is well accepted in south. Should we not limit the amount of tiresome oscillations and to more soothing music?
I mean, more stress on to shruti alignment?

I agree with you. Technically UNLESS Sruti Suddham & Swarasthana Suddham are adhered to IT'S NOT MUSIC. In Physics terms it would be considered NOISE. Of course our music has various asprcts like the composition, imagination in Raga alapana, Niraval as well as complex rythmic aspects which make it very difficult NOT to disobey certain technical aspects. ULTIMATELY it is the audience which decides who is great etc & for the sake of our culture & music things are great at the current time compared to the "old" days when in terms of numbers & frequency of concerts only very few artists were able to attract huge audiences. Incidentally the same deficiencies apply to rythmn experts also; many of them force the main artist to slow down or speed up violating the rules.......MSS told me that she practised close to six hours "Ahara Sadhagam", Mysore T.Chowdiah practsed close to 18 hours a day for many years, and MMI is legendary in his adherence thru' practice as well as innate talent in the area of sruri & swarasthana suddham; In terms of today's artists I notice that T.M.Krishna, B.M.K, as well as Mandolin U.Srinivas, Chitraveena Ravikiran are up there along with yester year artists mentioned above......
I used to take "FOREIGNERS" TO CARNATIC MUSIC CONCERTS WHEN I WAS IN CHENNAI during 1954-1959 &quickly learnt that their reactions were quite different from mine; North Indian musicians many of whom i knew & know very quiclky pointed out the violations which distracted them from enjoying the otherwise superior aspects of our music. My own son (who was born in USA & IS VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE in music of the west) literally would run out of the room when I played vocal carnatic music except that of MMI, BMK & MSS. I happen to have several music students from University Advanced music class come to my house for lec/dem cum explanations to my house in Los Alamos regularly; I dare not play any carnatic vocal music except the above three + instrumental musicians....
The BOTTOM line to me is to discuss these nuances only with persons who are not DEFENSIVE and capable of OBJECTIVE DISCUSSIONS ON THE SUBJECT. I feel emotions+heat leads to very little light! May be we are better off just saying we like this aspect & don't care for that aspect. After all EVEREYONE who succeeds in Carnatic music has talents way above most of the population & hence are likely to know their deficiencies. The Senior Musicians of yester year most of whom I was very fortunate to know & discuss these aspects were very critical of their own performances.MMI told (some one who asked why he was singing "Vataphi Ganapathim" thousands of times.) that he was attempting his best to see if he could JUST ONCE render it in theDIVINLEY PERFECT way Dhikshitar HAD COMPOSED IT! & WAS YET TO SUCCEED.GNB used to discuss the performance with accompanists- the high & low lights- immediately after the concert..vkv

[cacm]

When Hindustani concentrates more on shruti alignment, are we not too relaxed about this?? The excuse that we have is microtones or anuswaram, but i feel that it is been overtly used you may not know which are the swaras the musician is gliding on. It is usually a guess work and with experience that our ears believe as we familiarize the raaga. I have heard even those days Jambabaans singing out of shruti. Even these days veterans sing so often. When something like this is belittled in the north , it is well accepted in south. Should we not limit the amount of tiresome oscillations and to more soothing music?
I mean, more stress on to shruti alignment?

I agree with you. Technically UNLESS Sruti Suddham & Swarasthana Suddham are adhered to IT'S NOT MUSIC. In Physics terms it would be considered NOISE. Of course our music has various aspects like the composition, imagination in Raga alapana, Niraval as well as complex rythmic aspects which make it very difficult NOT to disobey certain technical aspects. ULTIMATELY it is the audience which decides who is great etc & for the sake of our culture & music things are great at the current time compared to the "old" days when in terms of numbers & frequency of concerts only very few artists were able to attract huge audiences. Incidentally the same deficiencies apply to rythmn experts also; many of them force the main artist to slow down or speed up violating the rules.......MSS told me that she practised close to six hours "Ahara Sadhagam", Mysore T.Chowdiah practsed close to 18 hours a day for many years, and MMI is legendary in his adherence thru' practice as well as innate talent in the area of sruri & swarasthana suddham; In terms of today's artists I notice that T.M.Krishna, B.M.K, as well as Mandolin U.Srinivas, Chitraveena Ravikiran are up there along with yester year artists mentioned above......
I used to take "FOREIGNERS" TO CARNATIC MUSIC CONCERTS WHEN I WAS IN CHENNAI during 1954-1959 &quickly learnt that their reactions were quite different from mine; North Indian musicians many of whom i knew & know very quiclky pointed out the violations which distracted them from enjoying the otherwise superior aspects of our music. My own son (who was born in USA & IS VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE in music of the west) literally would run out of the room when I played vocal carnatic music except that of MMI, BMK & MSS. I happen to have several music students from University Advanced music class come to my house for lec/dem cum explanations to my house in Los Alamos regularly; I dare not play any carnatic vocal music except the above three + instrumental musicians....
The BOTTOM line to me is to discuss these nuances only with persons who are not DEFENSIVE and capable of OBJECTIVE DISCUSSIONS ON THE SUBJECT. I feel emotions+heat leads to very little light! May be we are better off just saying we like this aspect & don't care for that aspect. After all EVEREYONE who succeeds in Carnatic music has talents way above most of the population & hence are likely to know their deficiencies. The Senior Musicians of yester year most of whom I was very fortunate to know & discuss these aspects were very critical of their own performances.MMI told (some one who asked why he was singing "Vataphi Ganapathim" thousands of times.) that he was attempting his best to see if he could JUST ONCE render it in the DIVINELY PERFECT way Dhikshitar HAD COMPOSED IT! & WAS YET TO SUCCEED.GNB used to discuss his performance with accompanists- the high & low lights- immediately after the concert..vkv

[cacm]

I wish to add that when I mentioned Sruti & Swarasthana suddham in the case of MSS, MMI etc I had not mentioned Sarvalaghu Suddham as one of the criteria also I had considered. I feel ALL THREE are fundamental requisites. vkv

[Nick H]

Whilst I don't have a millionth of vkv's experience (nor do I have the ear or raga knowledge to notice the lapses, really), I would have thought this puts in a nutshell

Technically UNLESS Sruti Suddham & Swarasthana Suddham are adhered to IT'S NOT MUSIC. In Physics terms it would be considered NOISE.

I don't think it is too much to expect a professional musician to sing or play in tune, any more than it is to expect them to keep time. These are the most elementary components of music anywhere in the world.

[martin]

When we're in doubt about tala, we could refer to a metronome. Shruti alignment is a bit more complicated, as most people will notice deviations in laya, but perception of tones/intervals relative to Sa or each other seems to offer more room for varying interpretations of what exactly is 'in tune'. So, 'in tune' with what, or according to what? And to what standards, with what tolerance? Nowadays there is no no one easy answer to this. What experience I have is mostly based on practice of Dhrupad vocal. Within the Dagarvani there may be a very consistent concept of voice-culture and raga-svaroop and the guru would tell you if intonation is correct or not. One other aspect of voice-culture in Dagarvani is the use of timbre-modulation, using shades of colours on one vowel, which can be compared to the threads in jivari of tambura. This kind of inner shruti control depends on having a solid tambura accompaniment. As the Dagarvani realises this, they invest in tambura culture - it has to be perfect, requiring the voice to seek to blend in to the tanpura-sound. Without good tanpuras, no Dhrupad. You can imitate the form of Dhrupad using electronic tanpuras, but it will be like a lifeless corps without the sursadhana qualities.
Dhrupad may be an extreme case but it illustrates the point I'm making.
In general, very subtle musical styles need fluent, well trained and tip-top shape voices, so that the highest standards can be maintained. Using harmonium or electronic synthetic sound, one breaks away from the principles of Nada Brahma and the perception of AUM (excuse the poetic language but I hope it is clear). Singing or playing along with synthesized sound is mundane and devoid of any magic - which is what we normally call the manifestation of higher principles at work.
Seeing that the use of synths is now pandemic, I expect tolerances for intonation will be going down. It is the suppremacy of form over content in our time, which seems to favour diversive distraction - not a good climate for doing sursadhana.

[vasanthakokilam]

Brilliant Martin. You have elevated this thread to a new level.

>use of timbre-modulation, using shades of colours on one vowel

Neat. I have not thought things through at this level. I assume what you mean here is that the harmonics change at the utterance of this vowel, thus contributing to the change in timbre/color.

While on this topic and the topic of gamakas, one view that appeals to me is that the oscillations around a swarasthanas provide the "horizontal color' to the swarasthana. It is just a matter of speaking, contrasting with the "vertical color', the timbre provided by the hormonics which are integral multiples of the swarasthanas, vertically stacked. I guess we can term the gamakas as 'horizontal coloring' of the average pitch perception.

So, my view of quality of sruthi suddham in CM is maintaining that average pitch perception and color by carefully oscillating the notes within acceptable limits.

A high quality voice can bring in variations in both coloring, vertical and horizontal, at suitable places. That may be the difference between a good voice and a great voice.

[PUNARVASU]

I am confused about the concept of shruthi of a particular swaram; say, for example, take sAdharaNa gAndhAram-the gandhAram of thodi ; the sAdharaNa gAndhAram occuring in difeerent rAgAs is not one and the same;there is lot of oscillation in it in different rAgAs; the same can be said of any other swaram I think.
The rishabham is sAveri. I have heard experts say that in rAgam sAvEri, the sA itself is ri-'sAvE ri'. In such circumstances, how to say that the musicican is not aligning to the shruthi? If some one can explain it ,I will be thankful.
Is it the same in HM?

[srikant1987]

I find the tambura or shruti potti almost inaudible in concerts. Do they keep a separate microphone for it, or is it just what little of it is captured in other microphones that we hear?

It is a special feeling I get when I hear a perfectly sung Sa at any octave alongside the drone. I can listen to just that for several minutes.

[cacm]

When we're in doubt about tala, we could refer to a metronome. Shruti alignment is a bit more complicated, as most people will notice deviations in laya, but perception of tones/intervals relative to Sa or each other seems to offer more room for varying interpretations of what exactly is 'in tune'. So, 'in tune' with what, or according to what? And to what standards, with what tolerance? Nowadays there is no no one easy answer to this. What experience I have is mostly based on practice of Dhrupad vocal. Within the Dagarvani there may be a very consistent concept of voice-culture and raga-svaroop and the guru would tell you if intonation is correct or not. One other aspect of voice-culture in Dagarvani is the use of timbre-modulation, using shades of colours on one vowel, which can be compared to the threads in jivari of tambura. This kind of inner shruti control depends on having a solid tambura accompaniment. As the Dagarvani realises this, they invest in tambura culture - it has to be perfect, requiring the voice to seek to blend in to the tanpura-sound. Without good tanpuras, no Dhrupad. You can imitate the form of Dhrupad using electronic tanpuras, but it will be like a lifeless corps without the sursadhana qualities.
Dhrupad may be an extreme case but it illustrates the point I'm making.
In general, very subtle musical styles need fluent, well trained and tip-top shape voices, so that the highest standards can be maintained. Using harmonium or electronic synthetic sound, one breaks away from the principles of Nada Brahma and the perception of AUM (excuse the poetic language but I hope it is clear). Singing or playing along with synthesized sound is mundane and devoid of any magic - which is what we normally call the manifestation of higher principles at work.
Seeing that the use of synths is now pandemic, I expect tolerances for intonation will be going down. It is the suppremacy of form over content in our time, which seems to favour diversive distraction - not a good climate for doing sursadhana.

Dear Martin,
What I am referring to is not at the metronome level for Tala; Just a good so-called knowledgeable listener using his hands, fingers etc to judge layam;ONLY a few like PMI OR MALI pass the rigourous metronome test; I have tried it on concerts I personally recorded after feeling it was not "right" at concert itself when I returned home(most of the recordings were done at 7.5in on a Revox 15 inch spool by myself. I was quite surprised by the result.
Reg Swasrasthanam again I am talking about the very mundane SA-PA-SA on the thambura vs the performer; Tests with Oscilloscopes etc show the various instrumentalists as well as vocalists indeed differ in frequencies- in terms of the ratios which in principle are fixed ratios- on the ri1 ri2 type notes .etc especially. Actually a gentleman at Stanford did detailed experiments & showed the result I also found out-stated above. As you have written this is more complicated as it gets into micro tones, padantharam, in the case of MaLI RESULT OF HIS RESERCH STUDIES etc-.
Neverthless if one takes the time to study this problem I find the correlation between Good music just defined on the basis of sruti & swarasthana+laya suddham in simple terms seems to correlate well with obeying these rules! As I had written carnatic music is quite complex in terms of variables that constitute GOOD MUSIC I find that anyone obeying the SIMPLE tenets of good sruti,swarasthanam&laya suddam ELEVATES the music to a far higher level. vkv

[Nick H]

I find the tambura or shruti potti almost inaudible in concerts.

I often wish it were so.

The poor Tambura is hardly heard at all, but sometimes the electronic box is promoted to main artist.

[Nick H]

... But that is an aside.

I have had time just now for proper reading of this thread, and the links, and it has been fascinating.

[msakella]

Dear b/s-members, What kind of Shruti instrument should be used in a music concert and why? What kind of tuning of Tambura really helps the main artist to sing from his heart and the listener to relish well and why? In fact these things must be discussed at length face to face along with the respective demonstrations. Then only things will be decided in a proper manner. Until such time, I don’t think, these discussions end nowhere. Sorry for being very frank enough. amsharma.

[martin]

I find the tambura or shruti potti almost inaudible in concerts. Do they keep a separate microphone for it, or is it just what little of it is captured in other microphones that we hear?

It is a special feeling I get when I hear a perfectly sung Sa at any octave alongside the drone. I can listen to just that for several minutes.

I noticed that a lot of soundtechnicians in theaters were ICM is performed (in europe) have their own ideas about what exactly the audience should be able to hear. Often this does not include the tambura. For instance when I accompanied Sultan Khan and Zakir Hussein in Paris, the technician, when asked about his, simply told me that the tambura is there only for the soloist and nobody else needs to hear this. He is not alone in thinking such apert nonsense. The technician should actually capture the complete soundscape on the stage and lift it to the hall so that all may hear in undistorted proportion.

[cacm]

Dear b/s-members, What kind of Shruti instrument should be used in a music concert and why? What kind of tuning of Tambura really helps the main artist to sing from his heart and the listener to relish well and why? In fact these things must be discussed at length face to face along with the respective demonstrations. Then only things will be decided in a proper manner. Until such time, I don’t think, these discussions end nowhere. Sorry for being very frank enough. amsharma.

IF THE MAIN ARTIST is capable of it, PROPERLY TUNED THAMBURA CANNOT BE BEAT. Just the "TIMBRE" a word used in previous discussions in this thread of the Thambura combined with the PERFECTION of MMI, MSS, or Harikesanallur Muthiah Bhagavathar & others whom I have not heard myself ( they used more than one Thambura) elevates the listening experience to a far higher level even before the concert itself starts & when the Swarasthanam also is perfect its close to if not PERFECTION ITSELF! vkv-

[martin]

Dear b/s-members, What kind of Shruti instrument should be used in a music concert and why? What kind of tuning of Tambura really helps the main artist to sing from his heart and the listener to relish well and why? In fact these things must be discussed at length face to face along with the respective demonstrations. Then only things will be decided in a proper manner. Until such time, I don’t think, these discussions end nowhere. Sorry for being very frank enough. amsharma.

Your question surprises me, as these values have been established already a long time ago. It is only because too many musicians choose the easy way out and move away from these cherished artistic values that quality in music is declining.
They used to say: ' having good tanpuras is half the concert won' , these days hardly anyone cares. This should be addressed in discussions, not what kind of instrument and how it should be used because this has already been established but is not sufficiently put into practice.

[srkris]

Martin.. you and msakella are probably saying the same thing...

[srikant1987]

It seems that earlier people would have tanpuras start droning 15-30 minutes before the scheduled commencement of the concert, so that the sabha's atmosphere was filled in its relaxing and soothing tones, and in order to let it sink in the keen listeners who came before the scheduled time (and the artists).

[msakella]

Dear brother-members, It is true that the values have been established long long ago but how many people are truly conscious enough to follow them. None of the CM musicians is following consciously.
To tell the fact I hate the conventional Tambura and I use only the Electronic-tambura which I have designed myself. At any time and at any place (but not in Music Academy, Chennai) I can prove that this conventional Tambura has its own umpteen disadvantages and my Electronic-tambura has its own umpteen advantages to make the artist sing from his heart and also to make the listener enjoy the music with his heart. But to prove this there is no other way than a demonstration at all. A piece of sweet answers all the questions than weeklong discussions in a seminar upon it. Now-a-days nobody prefers to go by walk to Varanasi but prefers even to fly if his pocket allows. But he must have sense. amsharma.

[knandago2001]

just intoning the adhara shadja while playing on the tambura is such a wonderful experience.. pausing to let the feeling soak in... resuming again to see if the voice merges with the sruti... for me it reinforces both concentration and commitment. singing in vilamba kala provides ample opportunity to appreciate the nuances of "tuneful music". it would not have been possible for a musician to have sung a raga for days on end without delineating / ignoring vilamba kala - names like begada subramania iyer (patnam), todi sitaramaiyya, sankarabharanam narasaiyya and tyagaraja's rendition of devagandhari come to mind. padam singing with its long drawn-out kaarvais and consequent demands on breath control is another case in point. the 4-kalai pallavis and varieties in slower tempi are now nearly obsolete. contemporary CM performance song lists are a testimony to what is not sung or "avoided". on the contrary improvisation in HM performance not only pays attention to the logical progression of tempi but also through the mandra, madhya and tara sthayi pattern of elaboration (asthayi antare ka bharna). both khayaliyas and dhrupadias sound most tuneful when they are singing in the vilamba kala. even they may "slip" during fast passages or during the execution of certain alankars (gamaks, gamak taans for example) in fast tempo. there is no dearth of theory to fall back on.. it is the practice that counts.. the kriti nadopasana in begada is a wonderful illustration of oscillations, flat notes, rare prayogas, beauty of vilamba kala and most of all the recognition that core values of good music are remarkably similar in CM and HM

[sbala]

We need some of our musicians to boldly move away from the Ariyakudi format and give concerts with just 2 or 3 ragas. Keep the Ariyakudi format but let it not be the only form of presentation.

[srikant1987]

Yes, some people are trying to do this. But giving just 2-3 ragas in a concert would be a huge deviation, and people may not attempt it just yet.

[martin]

Martin.. you and msakella are probably saying the same thing...

In all clarity and kindness, I don't think so. I love the tambura and msakella wrote furtheron that he hates it :/ So it looks like we could not disagree more.

[martin]

Dear brother-members, It is true that the values have been established long long ago but how many people are truly conscious enough to follow them. None of the CM musicians is following consciously.
To tell the fact I hate the conventional Tambura and I use only the Electronic-tambura which I have designed myself. At any time and at any place (but not in Music Academy, Chennai) I can prove that this conventional Tambura has its own umpteen disadvantages and my Electronic-tambura has its own umpteen advantages to make the artist sing from his heart and also to make the listener enjoy the music with his heart.

Even if electrodigipuras were absolutely perfect soundwise and could give instant satisfaction, for this very reason I would not want them. Give me the real experience and not a convenient shortcut that eventually leaves you emptyhanded. Daily tuning of tambura is a blessing for the musician as, over time, it stimulates our capacity for sursadhana, which is, according to standards that I will at least try to adhere to and keep up, just what the music demands.

To go as far as to write that you hate the conventional tambura is quite a statement. Do you mean a particular, perhaps neglected and mistreated instrument or all of them generically? It would seem to me that then you are probably not capable of evoking the beautiful resonances from the tambura that I hear when I play. But then to condemn the instrument does not seem right to me. I positively believe that my tanpura - or any instrument given in my care - can easily win the appreciation over any digithingy, from especially the most demanding musicians. Not the sloppy ones, they will definitely prefer the box.

For more information follow the link:

http://www.martinspaink.mimemo.net/
For accessing an article about fine-tuning of tanpura's, follow:
http://www.medieval.org/music/world/martin_est.html
or at Ashish Sankrityayan's Dhrupad-website:
http://www.dhrupad.info/articles.htm
debate on tanpura: http://omenad.net/articles/tanpura_debate.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambura#India

[srikant1987]

OK, since we have come to a debate between Tamburas and Electronic shruti boxes anyway, what do tamburas cost like?

Upon enquiring, I found that electronic shruti boxes cost more than Rs 1000. I agree that their task is vital, but it is also simple; this is a huge price for them. We can buy small keyboards for that price!

[cienu]

OK, since we have come to a debate between Tamburas and Electronic shruti boxes anyway, what do tamburas cost like?

Upon enquiring, I found that electronic shruti boxes cost more than Rs 1000. I agree that their task is vital, but it is also simple; this is a huge price for them. We can buy small keyboards for that price!

The electronic shruti boxes which cost Rs 1000/- are extremely basic models. Those that are compatible for concerts would cost anywhere between Rs 3500/- to Rs 6000/-.

[ganesh_mourthy]

well, here I have to intrude, however trivial my notion may be to the conventional minds. msakellaji writing there is not explicit as it used to be usually. But I could understand what he is trying to say.
Coming to the point, what is the Pa sound doing when singing a raga without Pa like a ranjani or HIndolam. you cannot quickly switch to Sa Ma Sa with a tambura where it is cumbersome. But I wish we could do it. A good tambura box comes to rescue.

[Music]

How is sruti handled in western classical vocal music? I would think they maintain their accuracy in pitch based on the piano that is played along. However, the piano does not continually show the sa-pa-sa notes like our tambura/tanpura. Then how do they manage pitch perfection in WM while we find the tambura/tanpura indispensible in Indian classical music and yet see sruti lapses in our performances?

[cacm]

How is sruti handled in western classical vocal music? I would think they maintain their accuracy in pitch based on the piano that is played along. However, the piano does not continually show the sa-pa-sa notes like our tambura/tanpura. Then how do they manage pitch perfection in WM while we find the tambura/tanpura indispensible in Indian classical music and yet see sruti lapses in our performances?

In Western music the scales are defined on the basis of absolute pitch. For exAmple middle C in the piano is 256cycles ( SA for us) & all the major & minor scale notes are then defined by specific ratios. The great difference in our music is the pitch of SA can be set to any value by the artist & once that is chosen all the other ratios have to be preserved. In a way it follows the general tolerance & individuality which appears to characterise the general approach to things in India.
Actually while C is 256 cycles only one out of ten to twenty thousand persons can detect what is called PERFECT PITCH! So the muddle involved in our music tends to average out all possible deviations on the part of the performer &listener as other things like micro-tones, quarter notes, padantharam are invoked & the ultimate test if the listener finds it pleasing! vkv

[srikant1987]

Western classical music is predominantly instrumental. And being a keyed instrument, the piano doesn't miss shruti, the way a violin or a gottu vadyam would. Tthere aren't any notes "in between", say, an E and an F, or a D and a D#. And then again "perfect pitch" is used in Western classical music — but like vkv said, only one in thousands of people can sense it. No, it isn't common among performers of Western classical music either.

[VK RAMAN]

where do we keep balance between shruti? Does music take over shruti or shruti take over music?

[Nick H]

from my imperfect knowledge...

Western orchestras tune to a note played on an oboe before the start of a concert. I heard tell that they do so because it produces the most harmonically pure note (or should that be simple?) I recall being surprised at this, as I would have expected to flute to have the purest (least harmonics) note.

Exceptions must surely be made when a large keyboard instrument, that would take a long time to tune (88 notes on a piano), is included, but outside of concertos for piano, harpsichord, pipe organ, tuned percussion, etc, this would not be common.

I imagine that the oboe, being a double reed instrument that produces a sound in exactly the way a nadaswaram does, must be sensitive to pressure and technique of blowing, so the oboist must be trusted to produce the correct note! (afterthought: I've just remembered that tuning forks have been around since long before digital meters)

Whilst 'absolute pitch' ('A' = 440 cycles per second) is the foundation of modern Western tuning, I have heard that most orchestras actually tune to a slightly higher pitch, as they find that their audiences react better to a sharper sound. Only those with 'perfect pitch' would be aware of that; to others, the orchestra is simply playing in tune: no wrong notes!

'Perfect Pitch' is not the same as having a very accurate sense of pitch. Accuracy simply means the ability to know that an artist (or one's self!) produced a note that was wrong, according to the scale of intervals in use. To a western musician with very accurate pitch (and most instruments require it), a piece played with A=450, but all the intervals and multiples correct, is just fine. (as long as everyone else is playing the same notes!)

A person with perfect pitch is able to remember not only intervals, but actual notes at a given frequency. They are able to identify, in the above example, that the whole song or performance is slightly sharp. If they are performers, they will produce a reference not for you with the accuracy of a tuning fork. They will know that an orchestra is not tuned to perfect pitch, and it may bug them. From what I have heard it is more of a nuisance than a gift to many such people

Another factor to be taken into account when comparing Western music with Indian (H or C) is that the Western scale is 'tempered' so that chords sound right and sweet to our ears; it is not strictly mathematical. I think that if a scale of CDEFGAB is played on the vina, and played on a guitar string tuned to match at C, the other notes will not coincide. If I 'play' successive notes, 1234567, on an electronic sruti box, they do not all coincide exactly with CDEFGAB on my digital meter.

However, my small morsing experience was that, with a manual knob-tuned sruti box, the artist might have told me "this is 5" --- it would be somewhere around F to A! As the more high-tech boxes took over, if the artist said "5", I could confidently tune my morsing to "G" and it would be correct.

[martin]

(...) Coming to the point, what is the Pa sound doing when singing a raga without Pa like a ranjani or HIndolam. you cannot quickly switch to Sa Ma Sa with a tambura where it is cumbersome. But I wish we could do it. A good tambura box comes to rescue.

When this kind of concern for ' convenience ' takes the upper hand it always gets me wondering if you people are impatient by nature or just lazy... what's the big deal here? Tuning pa to ma (or the reverse) is done in a few minutes, since when is everybody so rushed that his should be a problem?