Indian - Western fusion music band

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Jun 2006, 02:10

I bumped into this web page today..

http://www.ece.osu.edu/~calyama/param/

There are five songs with carnatic fusion..

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 19 Jun 2006, 11:03

I ve heard them. I dont like them. I think they are a bit confused.. the guy who runs the show there is obviously very weak in chord theory.. everything is CFGD etc

Half baked knowledge is worse than no knowledge.. in that state, attempting fusion can only result in chaos.. and u end up abusing both the music forms you are trying to fuse.

Their newer guitarist Anup Menon is my friend , great guy and nice rock guitarist.
J

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Jun 2006, 11:19

Interesting comments Jay...I do not know anything to comment on the chords...so thanks for pitching in on that.

When I listened to it, I thought the percussion and drums were just too repetitive and on vAthApi there is a lot of scope for that female singer to improve...and I could not hear much vocal in 'Shantakaram'..For such slOkams words are very significant but she was getting drowned out by everything else. May be it is just a case of bad recording.

I thought the instrumental interludes on hamsadhwani was interesting..it sounded like it went well with the overall mood of the song.

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 21 Jun 2006, 09:12

Interesting comments Jay...I do not know anything to comment on the chords...so thanks for pitching in on that.

When I listened to it, I thought the percussion and drums were just too repetitive and on vAthApi there is a lot of scope for that female singer to improve...and I could not here much vocal in 'Shantakaram'..For such slOkams words are very significant but she was getting drowned out by everything else. May be it is just a case of bad recording.

I thought the instrumental interludes on hamsadhwani was interesting..it sounded like it went well with the overall mood of the song.

but the chords have nothing to do with hamsaduani
it seems they followed a trial and error approach to the song
i am not a carnatic purist or even a regular carnatic rasika for that matter.
heck i even like susheela raman. but even i could not listen to thier vatapi without cringing.. the second time she sings vatapi.. bass moved down to chinna nee.. chinna nee in hamsaduani.. give me a break.

forget carnatic music. they aint even good enough for light music. check out vaseegara. they killed such a simple song. check out the horrendous chords he plays for that really simple song.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Jul 2006, 22:31

Gave it a try...

Managed to get half way through Vathapi and gave up.

Now, people know that I know little or nothing about raga: So why did I keep getting the feeling this girl was singing out-of-tune? If she was singing off-sruti I'm sure one of your guys would have noticed... Her seeming inability to pronounce the entire word Ganapatim didn't help either (or am I more deaf than I think today: it happens

) .

Another thing... the repetition was boring.

If repetion was boring in real carnatic music it would never have got off the ground.

Although my anti-fusion stance is well known I'm also one of the few posters here who finds Susheela Raman listenable-to: but these guys I wouldn't listen again.

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 15 Jun 2007, 07:39

A week back i had a chance to listen AKC along with a nadhaswaram player in podhigai channel. i noticed the clarionet was not having the usual lever and cup arrangement for blocking holes , which is a unique feature for western wind instruments. it was like nadawaram and AKC played nicely with his fingers blocking directly the swara sthanams. He might hv doing it ever since he started playing. but only now it caught my eyes. interested to know more abt this.

shripathi_g · Post by **shripathi_g** » 15 Jun 2007, 09:50

Deleted

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 15 Jun 2007, 09:57

thanjavooran,

I'm skeptical of your observation but it's possible.

Here's a linke to a picture of AKC Natarajan from April 2007, playing in Bangalore:

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thsc ... 13/&prd=fr&

Clearly, the level and cup arrangements are all in place. I saw him in Cleveland a couple of years back and then too his clarinet had the levers and keys.

Might you have seen close up TV footage of the nagaswaram player's fingers and mistaken it for AKC ?

By the way, the "recorder" in western music has just holes like the Indian flute; but of course, it's not part of a true "classical" ensemble.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Aug 2008, 05:39

Sorry that this is a tangent.

Also it is with some trepidation i post this as I won't be surprised if some of you think "look what he has done to our music"

Please check the latest post on my blog regarding an amateurish attempt at adaptation of a carnatic raga into "main stream western music" in particular rock: http://sunson.wordpress.com/2008/08/25/ ... -mad-lion/

This is not a case of trying to play a carnatic song in a western instrument (as is the topic of this thread), or bringing say western into carnatic (like the nottuswaras), but a case of trying blend carnatic based stuff into western music itself - in particular rock music.

I invite you to widen your horizons although some of you may find it too loud and may need earplugs

! And yes - blame it on amplication and you will be right on here.

Arun

Mods - I did not want to start a thread. I also did not want to put it in a specific raga as I did not want to give it away here itself. Please move it as to something more appropriate as you please.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Aug 2008, 09:10

Arun,
You don't stop surprising us !
I got ready to listen to your music with ear plugs on the ready, expecting an explosion. I needn't have worried. The mad lion was mellow! I really liked it, but you should have gone on a bit more, I felt--just when I thought it was gaining momentum, you stopped.
Yes, we can hear simhendra madhyamam, but not to a degree which makes one feel that the rAgA comes in a western disguise. Your originality shows.
The way you had introduced it, I had a feeling it would border on hard rock! You have a fair idea about me to know that these impressions are from someone who knows no theory, but enjoys any good music. I still feel you should expand on the theme, but do not continue in the mad lion mode when it comes to yourself

I bet CML, VK and others will comment in a knowledgable way...

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 26 Aug 2008, 10:03

http://www.ece.osu.edu/~calyama/param/.

Misguided attempt - hard to see anything good maturing from this avenue. This is "apasanskriti". Suggestion to performers: please take a different track. Jai ram ji ki !

SR

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 26 Aug 2008, 13:37

Try cutting out the rhythm and playing much the same thing as alapana: I think it will sound naturally carnatic. But then I am probably talking through my hat, as I have no idea if the order of the notes follows the rule.

It sounds closer to carnatic music than rock --- to me.

SR... the musician is simply conducting an experiment here: he is not looking for concert bookings!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Aug 2008, 20:07

Arasi,

Thanks. You are the 2nd person (beside my sister) to call it mellow

- funny. But in my defense - i was going for 70s rock feel as opposed to later heavy-metal and death-metal feel.

regarding - "you should have gone on a bit more", I guess I would have if I had more patience and imagination

- I was quite surprised that I would even get this much done and so I stopped feeling satisifed. But I will continue to tinker with it.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Aug 2008, 20:12

nick H wrote:Try cutting out the rhythm and playing much the same thing as alapana: I think it will sound naturally carnatic.

But Nick that defeats the whole purpose

- but maybe you mean that the only thing that is making it "less carnatic" is the rhythm track? Quite possible although then it would just sound like a pale shadow of a carnatic piece in that raga

. Like I mention not all gamakas are captured, I also dont make effective use of certain phrases of the raga. And the transition to various anchor swaras for this chord progression - i think is not what you typically see in a carnatic piece in this raga. These kind of deviations are *perhaps* "legitimized" (or sugar-coated) by the rhythm track.

Arun

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 26 Aug 2008, 21:33

Arunk,

I tend to agree. That clip of yours is quite good and would probably excite rock/reggae fans. You could probably produce an entire album based on various carnatic scales (the more "vakra" the better, I would imagine).

Nick,

Understood it was an experiment but if you look at the webpage descriptions etc the group takes themselves very seriously. My personal opinion - strong reality check needed regarding "ranjaktaa" aspects.

SR

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Aug 2008, 22:05

thanks SR! I am not sure it would appeal to reggae but maybe rock and that would be

Yes while I was "air guitaring" to it, I had fantasies of an album etc.

!! "the more "vakra" the better" - perhaps you were referring to the fact that the melody there for a large part was a simple walk-up and down the scale? Yes I did realize it, but that is reflection of my (lack of) "composition skills"

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Aug 2008, 08:57

Arun, Good work. Enjoyed listening to it. We have discussed before about harmonizing indian melodies and we did not get too far. You have done it here. The chords fit in nicely. You asked for the first reactions on rasa and bhava. Here is a combined account of two people, one being me.

1. Gave the impression in a couple of places that it is classically based.
2. More in the category of film based modern music with a big western orientation with a tinge of classical
3. Sounded joyful and bold. Mostly positive emotions.
4. The song has a connected sequence of various rasas: Initially some contemplation, brainstorming through alternatives - which way to go, this way or that way etc.- a moment of clarity which leads to a final resolution and "Ah! got it!" kind of elation. ( highly subjective, of course ).
5. It has scope for expanding each of these small sections further. What you have is the introductory movement which summarizes the whole thing. The middle movement can be an expansion and elaboration of each of the small sections of the first movement . The last movement can be a variation on the intro theme with a similar climactic ending thus keeping with the boldness bhava.

Thanks for sharing the piece!

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 27 Aug 2008, 09:30

Arun: That was very enjoyable.. Look forward to more!!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Aug 2008, 17:17

Thanks vk and nandagopal!

vk - enna sir idu? film music'nu solliTTELE

?

But again, I see that the "default" association is one that is positive rather than sad/serious/sombre as I associated with or expect with g2, m2, d1 and n3. Interesting ...

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Aug 2008, 21:00

Arun, no need to worry

. That 'film style modern music' impression was felt by the other person in the room and it is in the vibe of 'quality film score' like what John Williams, A.R. Rahman or Ilaraja might employ!!

My take is that it gives off that impression mainly because the synthesized sound has an 'orchestral' color to it rather than a single guitar. It can be due to a variety of factors including the quality of my laptop speakers, compression etc. Also, to get to your stated goal, it can sound a bit raw and rough. So, a worthwhile experiment wil be to keep the music the same but change the instrument and/or add distortions ( you wrote you are considering it ) to substitute some of the 'sweetness' with some 'rawness'.

Couple of examples come to my mind. I know of one relatively unknown 'hard rock band' whose sound has that quality: very rough and raw with a base of good quality melody which tangentially touches on Indian classical. I got curious and wrote to them and they did say they are very familiar 'indian sounds' and they will not be surprised if it showed up in their musical thinking. Even outside of such bands, the sounds of main stream eminent blues rock guitarists like Clapton and others of that ilk can be co-opted to a similar purpose you have in mind.

To be sure, no suggestion implied here to follow others' style. You are approaching this with a lot of originality and keep going in that vein.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 27 Aug 2008, 23:13

very nice Arun,
To me it sounded a melodious (mellowdious) fusion- of East and West.

Try something in nATakurinji..

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 27 Aug 2008, 23:35

Suji,
I tend to agree with you on its being a melodious fusion. You clarify the point I was trying to make. It is not a hodge podge of 'borrow a bit here and there' sort of stuff by which con'fusion' is created. It is original, and knowing that it comes from Arun, it cannot be a patchwork quilt.
After VK's creation of the rgA vasanthakokilam which you played very well on the violin, this again is innovative stuff. VK goes into detailed observation, as one can expect of him. Funny, what sounded like denouement to him was 'getting into gear' for me, and I needed to hear more of it!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Aug 2008, 23:59

vasanthakokilam wrote:sound a bit raw and rough. So, a worthwhile experiment wil be to keep the music the same but change the instrument and/or add distortions ( you wrote you are considering it ) to substitute some of the 'sweetness' with some 'rawness'.

Yep. I can follow what you mean. But I think this was perhaps a subconscious choice. Maybe I was leaning against a Led-Zep type of edginess, and more towards a Pink Floyd type of feel (say Time), as that reflects my preference. In any case, I always have a tendency to reduce the treble too much. If you compare this with say that Dont Fear the Reaper bit, you can the edginess in the guitar - more treble, not necessarily more distortion.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Aug 2008, 00:00

Thanks suji and (again) arasi

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Sep 2008, 20:22

one more (albeit the end result is certainly not even as carnatic as the earlier one)

http://sunson.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/ ... fty-eight/

"Enjoy" (i.e. if that is even possible

)

Arun

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 25 Sep 2008, 10:16

Hemavati, yes ? Nicely done. I have transferred it to a CD. Perfect to listen to on a weekend drive on a curvy road

.

Thanks!

SR

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 25 Sep 2008, 18:23

Thanks SR! I hope (the scale behind) hemavathi was reasonably discernible from the tune itself rather than the clue for it originating from elsewhere

Arun

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 25 Sep 2008, 18:49

Nice. Keep it up.

Did you try throwing a C# major somewhere ? The notes would fall within Hemavati and may add some variation to the B-minor and B-minor 6th ?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 25 Sep 2008, 21:51

Yes - did try. Actually IIRC, C#maj7 fit somewhat better. The trouble was - initially I got those 2 chords, and I was stuck in a do-loop

- I decided to coin the melody based on that - thinking as I come up with a progression, I will adjust the melody accordingly. But then I was very hooked on the "spacy", "dreamy" feel - and could not bring the other chords into that umbrella (but that could be me - stuck in a groove err... rut).

As I commented on my blog - the melody itself gave me a lot of trouble "tying loose ends" and bringing closure. I was getting frustrated - but not as much as others members of my family, who were getting quite sick of hearing it

;)

Arun

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Sep 2008, 02:31

Arun,
I like it--perhaps more than your previous creation? It ought to be good, because anything which doesn't say, 'this is what I am', but gets several interpretations to it AND is pleasing to listen to on top of it, has to have some merit to it. I did not hear hemavati but some other rAgA! Will wait and see if someone else hears it that way. I am waiting for the number puzzle to be solved by experts.
To me, a mere rasikA and not an expert, this was a spontaneous effort. At least, it seemed so to me. Not a deliberated piece at all.
Wonder why your family did not give you much credit. Anyway, your daughter would gain by the experience--seeing her father in a creative mood. Fodder for her own creativity in the coming years. She is already a rasikA, we know that

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Sep 2008, 04:34

Thanks arasi. Hemavathi swaroopa is indeed quite subdued - IMO a bit part of the meditative feel of classic hemavathi is the purvanga of the scale - particularly r and ga, and also by ma - in the madhya stayi The tune I ended up creating concentrates more on the dha ( in general more on the uttaranga part I guess). I do cover the purvanga part but it is not dwelled upon a lot, and that too in the "middle sthayi".

I did not imply that my family did not give me credit

- actually my daughter liked the tune a lot. But for a while there 90% of it was done, and the last 10% was agonizingly out of reach. So for many days, they were hearing the same parts again and again and again, as I battled with it. They just wanted me to "finish it"

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Sep 2008, 09:26

Arun: I enjoyed this piece very much. Congratulations.. Good work.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Sep 2008, 22:31

thanks vk!

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 26 Sep 2008, 22:52

arun,
It was very nice. Was able to make out hemavati.(pAmbin kAl pAmbaRiyum.):)

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Sep 2008, 00:25

thanks

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 27 Sep 2008, 04:03

akkam pakkattu Sila prANigaLumtAn...

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 27 Sep 2008, 13:06

arunk wrote:I hope (the scale behind) hemavathi was reasonably discernible from the tune itself rather than the clue for it originating from elsewhere

Yes, it was 100% clear from about 1:25. Where else should it originate from ?

SR

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 27 Sep 2008, 16:08

arasi wrote:akkam pakkattu Sila prANigaLumtAn...

akkam pakkattu Sila pr(a)yANigaLumtAN-(who travelled on Route Fifty Eight):D
Obviously they should know which route they are taking.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Sep 2008, 19:56

Sangeet Rasik wrote:
arunk wrote:I hope (the scale behind) hemavathi was reasonably discernible from the tune itself rather than the clue for it originating from elsewhere
Yes, it was 100% clear from about 1:25. Where else should it originate from ?

SR

I had included a "guessing game" as part of that post - i.e. guess why the tune was titled so. Thinking that hemavathi may not be that obvious in that tune, I had left clues in the title itself. So I was implying if the clue in the title (i.e. route 58) gave the first hint or whether the tune itself. I was hoping the tune itself - and I am sort of glad it was so

Arun

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 27 Sep 2008, 22:02

Heh, heh...I see. No I did not realize the implication of Route 58 at all. Clever ! I thought the "Route 58" was a reference to a real road. I did not read the discussion posted below your piece. I just read it now and it looks like the "gUDhatattva" was understood already by persons in that discussion.

SR

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Sep 2008, 22:04

Arun, I did not catch on to Hemavathi since I am not familiar with that Raga. While listening to it, the tune that I was reminded of was from the middle of the film song 'ottahathai kattikko' ( sorry for the film reference again in the context of your compositions

). I did not know what raga that song is in. Search revealed it was Dharmavathi. Later on I learnt from other's posts that it was Hemavathi.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Sep 2008, 19:45

vk - I always thought oTTakattai kaTTikkO is in dharmavati. But not sure if the adaptation included both ni's - to make it more ambigous. Hemavathi and dharmavathi differ w.r.t Nishadam - in carnatic context that can affect the intonation of other swaras introducing more melodic differences. But in non-carnatic contexts, such differences may not be as pronounced thus leading to more varied opinions from listeners. Of course there is also the case of more liberal adaptation w.r.t introducing foreign notes.

As a related case, check out this (much much) earlier blog post of mine: http://sunson.wordpress.com/2007/07/10/ ... natic-raga - is it (closer to) dharmavathi or hemavathi or something else? Check out the discussion also w.r.t what some people thought.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Sep 2008, 00:57

Arun, I now realize the ambiguity in what I wrote. I meant to write 'later on i learnt from other's posts that your piece was in Hemavathi'.

Anyway, your blue oyster cult blog is very interesting. First I thought you put that together and thought 'Way to go Arun, this sounds quite Blues Rockish with a carnatic aesthetic'

The discussion on that piece is quite instructive and nicely fits in with our own prior topic on grahabedam. The one issue that still interests me is the issue of 'what is in the music that can transmit the inherent shadjam'. In many cases there are uncertainties no doubt but that seems to be limited to a few possibilities and not to the full set of possibilities which is interesting in itself.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Mar 2009, 21:02

I found this on youtube - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGCIbn5ZT0g - I liked it. I liked how the western strings (particularly the cello) accentuate the mood

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Mar 2009, 03:55

another western piece with a tenuous carnatic connection: http://sunson.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/ ... spiration/

Arun

rajesh_rs · Post by **rajesh_rs** » 19 Mar 2009, 06:39

vasanthakokilam wrote:Arun, I did not catch on to Hemavathi since I am not familiar with that Raga. While listening to it, the tune that I was reminded of was from the middle of the film song 'ottahathai kattikko' ( sorry for the film reference again in the context of your compositions ). I did not know what raga that song is in. Search revealed it was Dharmavathi. Later on I learnt from other's posts that it was Hemavathi.

True, the second part of the song is set in Hemavathi. I played the song thinking it was Dharmavati, but ended up lapsing into Hemavathi soon after.

rajesh_rs · Post by **rajesh_rs** » 19 Mar 2009, 06:40

arunk wrote:another western piece with a tenuous carnatic connection: http://sunson.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/ ... spiration/

Arun

Was waiting for your next post for ages and realized you had taken a break. Nice to see you come back with a bang. Shri ragam, very well done. The Floydian influence is evident!

And yes, the nice cello-violin piece by V S Narasimhan is lovely. I looped this several times once and fell in love with this rendition of Mokshamu Galada. I emailed VS Narasimhan, he's apparently in Chennai and does take lessons.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 19 Mar 2009, 06:50

Simply superb Shri with the beauty of plain notes. I could relish the first 3 minutes more. Thank you. msakella

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Mar 2009, 19:57

Thanks rajesh

akalla garu - thanks and I am honored to receive compliments from someone of your stature

! And yes, the first 3 minutes "closer" to Sri than the last 1.5 minutes. I would say it moves farther and farther from Sri from start to finish, close (first part) => farther => much much farther

Arun

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 20 Mar 2009, 08:22

Dear brother-member, arunk, I am not at all great except in hight (5ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢- 11"