Link between temple architecture and Carnatic Music

10yearslate · Post by **10yearslate** » 11 Mar 2008, 10:33

Hi,

I am interested in the consideration of the arts, specifically Carnatic music, in ancient temple design and architecture.

Thought points could include Rangamantapams, musical pillars etc.,

Look forward to your views/ contributions.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Mar 2008, 11:08

Here is a small video clip of tones by striking the granite musical pillars at the Purandhara Mantapa (16th century ), Hampe, Karnataka.

http://www.acoustics.org/press/147th/Pillars4.WMV

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 11 Mar 2008, 11:27

Thanks for the video link vasanthakokilam.

The musical pillers are from the ranga manTapa in the Vijaya ViTThala temple in Hampe. Purandara manTapa is a different mantapa altogethe located on the banks of Tungabhadra

You can see the Purandara mantapa in the following link:

http://karthiklg.blogspot.com/2005/10/j ... -past.html

Sorry for the digression though

-Ramakriya

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Mar 2008, 12:15

Thanks Ramakriya for the correction.

That blog is quite wonderful. Excellent pictures.

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 11 Mar 2008, 15:14

ramakriya wrote:Thanks for the video link vasanthakokilam.

The musical pillers are from the ranga manTapa in the Vijaya ViTThala temple in Hampe. Purandara manTapa is a different mantapa altogethe located on the banks of Tungabhadra

You can see the Purandara mantapa in the following link:

http://karthiklg.blogspot.com/2005/10/j ... -past.html

Sorry for the digression though

-Ramakriya

ramakriya- Excellent blogpost---- Many Thanks!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 11 Mar 2008, 18:27

We know of how the legendary Smt. Balasaraswati firmly established the traditional mArgam in bharatanATyam to the temple architecture/visit to a temple! BUT, this is a wonderful question - I am glad that 10yearslate has posed this - considering that music (CM) and dance were mainly temple arts, is there any evidence that the 'halls' for these performances were specially designed? I mean, with special attention to the acoustics, 3-dimensional space etc., like the opera halls in Vienna..

10yearslate · Post by **10yearslate** » 12 Mar 2008, 06:41

Thanks all for the enthu responses.

I am glad Shankar-ji thinks this to be an under-asked question. This was precisely my reasoning for raising it.

Apropos the musical pillars, there are some views that the musical pillars as seen at various sthalams are 'accidental' and not by explicit design. However I intend to explore this some more.

Apropos the rangamantapams, this was a later adjunct to purpose built temples. If you look at the early rock cut temples (Sittannavaasal, Mamallapuram etc) these dont have RMs. However later temples such as Brhadeesvara, Nagesvara etc have them. This is reflective of the position of the temple as a hub of social as well as religious life.

THe other question is whether there is agamic sanction for RMs.

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 12 Mar 2008, 15:27

This is fascinating! I was reminded of the musical pillars that are adjacent to the 1000 pillar mandapa in the Meenakshi â€“ Sundareswarar temple complex http://www.madurai.com/meena.htm
Links to temple layout http://www.madurai.com/layout.html

Built by the Nayaks, the Sangita Mahal located on the first floor of the Tanjore Palace is also renowned for its acoustics. Furthermore, the performance venue is a historic link to the dancers and musicians who codified the â€œtraditionalâ€

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 12 Mar 2008, 16:54

Musical pillars are there in Nellayappar temple in Tirunelveli and also in Suseendram temple.

nigamaa · Post by **nigamaa** » 12 Mar 2008, 20:16

Hi,

Music and geometry share a common heritage, so it is no surprise at all to find this depicted in sacred architectures of all cultures. The musical instrument called lambdoma was developed to analyze and play such correlations and is available from
www.lambdoma.com.

cheers

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 12 Mar 2008, 22:25

It would be interesting to discuss about musical instruments as seen in sculptures - That would give an idea of evolution of instruments.

I will later post a sculpture of a Veena without a 'koDa' -(resonator) ; I don't know what it was called though! Does it qualify to be a veena?

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 13 Mar 2008, 02:32

ramakriya wrote:It would be interesting to discuss about musical instruments as seen in sculptures - That would give an idea of evolution of instruments.

I will later post a sculpture of a Veena without a 'koDa' -(resonator) ; I don't know what it was called though! Does it qualify to be a veena?

-Ramakriya

How to insert an image here?

-Ramakriya

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 13 Mar 2008, 03:04

Instructions visit

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2716

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 13 Mar 2008, 03:06

Thanks Suji Ram

This is from the wall of the hoysalESwara temple in haLEbeeDu, karnataka (1110 AD)

Notice the resonator-less veeNe; The flautist is not seen completely.

I do not know if they were meant to be two musicians, or represent Krishna, and Saraswati though.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 13 Mar 2008, 03:07

deleted

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 13 Mar 2008, 03:31

I am wondering if the koDam got chipped off.
How would one get sound out of this instrument without it.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 13 Mar 2008, 21:29

knandago2001 wrote:How I wish I had heard it in the precincts of a temple! Items like mallari and mela praapti â€“ perhaps drawing from the music of the nagaswaram tradition - are also performed in Bharatanatyam.

knandago2001,
What is mela praapti , I googled could not find much?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 13 Mar 2008, 22:32

Rajesh,

kauttuvams and mELa prApti were part of the reprtoire that was used as invocatory items when dancing was not a stage-art form, but rather a part of the religious rituals of temples - nritya sEva and sangIta sEva were routine parts of the daily worship in temples.

I saw a mELa prApti for the first time on a DVD featuring Smt. Vyjayantimala Bali called ArAdhanA - experts can dilate more on this, but it was a pure dance item, with tavil providing the rhythmic framework. Some of the movements actually mimic the movements of the men who carry the lord on a palanquin on their shoulders.

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 16 Mar 2008, 19:56

Perini (dance of male warriors) â€“ women musicians playing the mridangam â€“ depicted at the Ramappa Temple in Warangal, Andhra Pradesh
http://www.angelfire.com/hi/raj1/warangal.html

Dance and architecture of the Hindu temple
http://traumwerk.stanford.edu:3455/43/29

10yearslate · Post by **10yearslate** » 18 Mar 2008, 04:49

Knandago and all,

Thanks for your enthusiastic responses. Quite a few nuggets from there that I was unaware of.

The genesis of this has to do with a discussion with a senior student. This boy's interest and immersion in C-music as an art form was absolute, however he argued for separating the music from the religious aspect.

My view was that the two (I combined music and dance into one for this argument) are intertwined and inseparable. In support, I mentioned the rangamantapams in Chidambaram, Thanjavur and KumbakoNam where the 108 dance karana-s of Nataraja are in illustration of the panchakrtya-s, namely creation, preservation, destruction, embodiment and release.

From there I got a bit more interested and intend to make it the subject of a lec-dem at my local Carnatic music association.

Your contributions in illustration of the link between temple architecture and music/dance are eagerly sought.

Thanks again.

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 20 Mar 2008, 10:47

@10yearslate: Good Luck with the lec-dem.

More links to music from the â€œtemple repertoireâ€

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 20 Mar 2008, 11:39

The mike-less worlds of Koothambalams never said it all.

In the Intelligence tests conducted for Interviews in UPSC etc. there is one test - wherein a canvas with some smeared drawing/painting is presented - the features of which cannot be made out; and the candidate is expected to write whatever comes to his mind.

From whatever is the response, a psycho-analyst can make out the deep ingrained impressions of the person concerned. (with proper training and coaching, it is possible to fool the anayst also)

Sometimes I tend to feel that would it not be better if the musician introduces us into the true mood of rAga and leaves us to do our own rambling with words - rather than introduce words which are in any way either mis-pronounced or unintelligible to the majority of the audience? There the instrumental music scores better.

But who is that who can truly bring out the mood of the rAga in all its splendour- sogasugA mRdanga tALamu jata kUrci ninnu sokka cEyu dhIruDevvaDO?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Mar 2008, 20:23

Ink blot tests and rasikic (psychic?) interpretations? Interesting...

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 22 Mar 2008, 09:38

â€œPsycho-acoustics?â€

10yearslate · Post by **10yearslate** » 22 Mar 2008, 22:57

Knandago,

Thanks again for the new links.

One nugget that emerged from my reading is;
The Nataraja aspect of Siva is well represented not just in Thanjavur, KumbakoNam and Chidambaram but also in Madurai, Tiruk-kutraalam, Tiruppattur, Tirunelveli, Tirvaalangaadu etc.,

In apparent inspiration is the unusual sculpture of a dancing Narasimha on a pillar within the Tirumalai temple! If any respected readers have a photo of this sculpture, could you please post it.

Or equally, those intending to visit Tirupati in the near future might have a version of the Easter hunt for this murti!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 23 Mar 2008, 01:38

108yearslate:

In madurai, he is of course, the 'kAl mAri ADiya kanakasabhEsan' (pAdam varundum yenru pANDiyan vENDIDa, vEdanum mAlum kANA vimala malar pAdam, nI dayavuDan Endi nirtanam ADiDa).....

And here are the sabhais/ambalam where he dances

The five main sabhAs (panca-sabhA) are:
tEDarum tillaiyilE ponambalam koNDAn.... (cidambaram - kanakasabhA) GOLD

mADa mAmaduraiyil veLLiambalam koNDAn (madurai - rajatasabhA) SILVER

nellaiyilE tAmira sabhai kaNDAn (tiruNalvEli - tAmrasabhA) COPPER

IDillA kuTrAlam adil cittirasabhai koNDAn (kuTrAlam - citrasabhA) PICTURES

ezhil alangADutannil rattina sabhai koNDAn (AlankADu - ratnasabhA) RUBIES

Others are:

adrisabhA in kailAS
Adi citsabhA in tiruvenkADu
kanakasabhA in pErUr

It is interesting to note that the dance hall in cidambaram is the kanakasabhA, while the citsabhA of cidambaram is the garbhagraham (sanctum sanctorum) while the citsabhA in tiruvenkADu is the dance hall in that temple.

10yearslate · Post by **10yearslate** » 23 Mar 2008, 07:04

Shankar-ji, excellent korvai of the sabha-s.

Of course w.r.t pANDiyan vENDIDa, the PANDiyan in question was VaraguNa PANDiyan, who desired the difference.

To add to your list,

Tiruppattur-Gauri-Tandava sabha
Ganjanur-Mukti Sabha

I may be wrong, however I recall that the Tirunelveli sabha was the Agni sabha, unless we are talking different temples in Nellai.

10yearslate · Post by **10yearslate** » 14 Apr 2008, 17:22

Another nugget that came about in my readings was that the Malai-kkovil in Kudumiyamalai (near Pudukkottai) and Satyagirisvarar temple at Tirumayam have inscriptions on musical notations in the Pallava-grantha script.

These notations seem to indicate they were for a stringed lute called the parivadini or Vidya-parivadini and were enunciated by a Gunasena.

Do any of the knowledgeable members know more about the parivadini?

By the way, the Tirumayam and Kudumiyamalai temples are rock-cut temples going back to about the 7th/8th Century.

10yearslate · Post by **10yearslate** » 17 Apr 2008, 04:31

Would anyone have images of the Navaranga Mantapa at the Vidyasankara temple in Sringeri?

Most Navaranga Mantapas or Ranga Mantapas tend to have four central pillars. This one has twelve pillars, each marked with one sign each of the zodiac, and are thus called the rasi pillars.

On the floor of the mantapa is a circle with converging lines to indicate the direction of the shadows cast by these pillars.

An unusual fusion of architecture and astronomy in a rangamantapa. I wonder what connection this had with the arts.

10yearslate · Post by **10yearslate** » 21 Apr 2008, 07:28

I came across a very good book called 'Bharatha KhanDada devalayagaLu-Indian Temples (Temple Architecture)' by Asoori Shrinivasa Ayyangar in Kannada. This is a six volume set, each volume concentrating on one of the shaDvarga devalayas.

Unfortunately I just have the first volume. This is doubtless an out-of-print book as what I have was printed in 1978.

If anyone has the rest of the volumes, I would like to get in touch with you.

10yearslate · Post by **10yearslate** » 06 Sep 2008, 03:51

The lecture on this topic is on the following weekend (13 Sep) in Melbourne, Australia. If you happen to be in town, it would be great to have you there. Link is below.

http://www.cmcmelbourne.org.au/

Soundar

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 06 Sep 2008, 06:46

Soundar,

Good luck! Is there some way to share your presentation after the 13th? I'd be very interested!

If you ever come across a book called ''CHOLA Sacred Bronzes from Southern India" published by the Royal Academy of Art, London (Feb 2007) have a look-see - it has some references (sangam and other 'period') poetry that go with the sculptures - some of which have been set to music. Maybe relevant to your interest here.

10yearslate · Post by **10yearslate** » 06 Sep 2008, 07:35

Shankar-ji,

Thanks for your wishes. Of course, I'd be delighted to share it with all, assuming of course it does not get savaged by the knowledgeable Melbourne audience first!

Apropos your earlier post on the pancha sabhais, I imagine the following is the saahityam of a composition. Could you share the name/composer etc?

tEDarum tillaiyilE ponambalam koNDAn....

mADa mAmaduraiyil veLLiambalam koNDAn

nellaiyilE tAmira sabhai kaNDAn (tiruNalvEli -

IDillA kuTrAlam adil cittirasabhai koNDAn

ezhil alangADutannil rattina sabhai koNDAn

-Soundar

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 06 Sep 2008, 08:28

Yes, Soundar, you are right - that is a passage from ANDavan pitchai's 'ADavallAn yemmai ALavallAn, oru IDu illAn yengum enrum uLLAn' that has been tuned in rAgamAlikA...

Ravi

10yearslate · Post by **10yearslate** » 07 Sep 2008, 07:40

Thank you Ravi. I also heard Smt Sudha's version in Musicindiaonline. Pretty encyclopaedic list of the Nataraja sthalams I must say.
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/pUO ... As1NMvHdW/

This made me think, is there a similar song listing the other forms of Sivan, namely KalyanaSundarar, MeenakshiSundareshwarar (may not be limited just to Madurai) and Bhikshatanar.

10yearslate · Post by **10yearslate** » 15 Sep 2008, 06:33

Ravi and everyone,

I'm glad to advise the presentation went off well on Saturday evening. I was particularly heartened by the presence of some of the guru-shreshta-s of Melbourne through the entire presentation, and their kind words at the finish.

It went for about forty five minutes, therefore I may be unable to post the video on youtube. I will advise when I have been able to post it on some hosted domain or the like.

Soundar

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 15 Sep 2008, 07:35

Soundar:

Great to know that! Do you have a slide show that you used? Maybe, you could post that!

10yearslate · Post by **10yearslate** » 15 Sep 2008, 07:43

Ravi,

It was a powerpoint presentation. However posting this file itself may not be much use, as the ppt was the basis for verbally elaborating on the bullet points-therefore it would be better to see the video itself.

I will upload at the earliest and advise!

Thanks for your continued interest.

Soundar