how would you find the pitch of someone playing or singing?

sureshjm · Post by **sureshjm** » 03 Oct 2008, 21:35

how would you find the pitch of someone playing or singing . if one wants to sing along or of a violin learner wants to tune his violin and play along how to find the pitch set?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Oct 2008, 21:40

usually singers hum or sing explicitly their AdhAra shadjam, pancamam and tAra shadjam to enable the accompanists to finetune their equipments....

sureshjm · Post by **sureshjm** » 03 Oct 2008, 23:33

that is Ok for the accompanying artists. what if you want to sing along listening to a recoriding or play instrument along with a recording.???? how would you find and set it then ?

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 04 Oct 2008, 00:08

Say, your instrument is tuned for C pitch.
Next listen to a recording- if you can hear the Shruti box/drone you can quickly find if it is above or below your pitch. You may not have to go far from C for male singers since they range from B-D. You just tune up and down accordingly to match the Shruti
You can buy a small electronic pitch detector (Korg)

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 04 Oct 2008, 02:35

unless you are naturally born with the ear for identifying different sruthis/notes (Lalgudi had this gift), you will have to use a pitch pipe or sruthi box and match the sruthi to that in the recording.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 04 Oct 2008, 09:30

Why is singing along a problem?

For instruments, play a few seconds of the song, and remember the shadjamam for the recording and tune your instrument for that shadjamam. Then play the recording again and play with it.

DrKashyap · Post by **DrKashyap** » 04 Oct 2008, 12:17

sureshjm wrote:how would you find the pitch of someone playing or singing . if one wants to sing along or of a violin learner wants to tune his violin and play along how to find the pitch set?

Dear, you have to have this minimum natural talent to learn sincere music. Or you can practise them repeatedly under the supervision of knowledgabe well wisher. As such it is the matter of performance & not the matter of discussion which can be put in word-form.

kamalamba · Post by **kamalamba** » 04 Oct 2008, 14:04

Dr. Kashyap

I think sureshjm is not asking how you align yourself (which the vast majority of people can do) but how would you know what sruti the other person is singing / playing (without the aid of any other instrument; i.e. whether it is 1 Kattai , C , B...etc).

I believe this is what sankirnam was refering to "Lalgudi's ability..."

Correct me if I am wrong sureshjm.

Kamalamba

sureshjm · Post by **sureshjm** » 04 Oct 2008, 15:23

kamalamba ,

you got me precicely.

Alignment is what kashayap is saying I guess and that comes naturally for anyone if 2 people are playing same notes or song. Say for instance if 2 students practice veena together one would tune his veena first and then the other would have enough time to tune to the other persons Sa as he is plucking the string . easy and done. and then they woudl start playing. here there is enough time or may be both can even opt to tune with the electronic tuner.

but it is a different story if a student praticing an instrument wants to practice along a song that he has in digital format. the singer would right away would start mahaganapathim. here where is Sa and where is Pa for a dabbler. And morover as someone was discussing earlier we hardly llisten to the tambura sound in our carnatic music .

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Oct 2008, 15:39

You can find out by trial and error.

It is one of those things where thinking too much about it does not actually help; it is the doing that helps.

Have to admit, that on some of those occasions when accompanists are sitting on stage for an ever-changing progression of instrumental/vocal performers, there have certainly been those for which my attempt to select and fine-tune the right morsing from the box has been more error than trial!

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 04 Oct 2008, 16:05

@ sureshjm
Doesn't my suggestion help?

You should have some idea of the song if you're going to practice with a recording of it. For example, you would know that the 'hA' in mahAgaNapatim (first sangati) is at pa. sa should then follow. If the pa you have mentally noted is getting distorted as the singer traverses octaves with the composition, you should pause the song after figuring out the pa and tune your instrument in silence before resuming the song again.

sureshjm · Post by **sureshjm** » 04 Oct 2008, 16:45

srikant it really helps. thanks. just sometimes poeple would have differnet methods I thought.

DrKashyap · Post by **DrKashyap** » 04 Oct 2008, 18:11

Ah! I moved in somewhat different direction then!

For this, I think better to take some time ( 1-2 min) for tuning a shruti box first, because without a precise drone, it becomes increasingly difficult. Only the trial & trial can help approximate perfection.

I was north indian vocalist but later I did play sarangi actively for few years, so I know the pain of accompanist, esp when you have to accompany diff artist instantly with diff pitches with diff thaats ( in all tuning 41 sarangi strings on a labile skin)

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 04 Oct 2008, 21:32

sureshjm, in Mahaganapathim, many singers also pause at the tAra shadjamam at dEvasutham (it ends in high Sa). This would be a good point to align yourself as well. The few times I have tried this alignment, I have used points in the composition where there is a stop on sa/ pa. But it's really difficult!

sureshjm · Post by **sureshjm** » 04 Oct 2008, 21:44

yes, that now you know where is Sa in Mahaganapathim it becomes easier. but not with all the songs.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 04 Oct 2008, 22:13

It is a bit trial and error esp for songs you don't know anything (like me). I have learnt several compositions from recordings.
If you are off-Sruti while playing along you will notice soon. One must know atleast the rAga and mUrchana(though both may not be necessary !)

I usually change the Sruti of the singer/instrumentalist to match the Sruti I am playing/singing in

Occasionally I encountered Srutis neither D# nor E but somewhere in between

sureshjm · Post by **sureshjm** » 04 Oct 2008, 23:05

Suji Ram wrote:I usually change the Sruti of the singer/instrumentalist to match the Sruti I am playing/singing in

how would you change that to your playing. probably you do with some software?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Oct 2008, 23:30

This gives me the opportunity to ask one of those been-bugging-me-for-years basic questions that everybody else probably just knows, but the answer could be handy in this thread:

What are the conventions for starting and ending alapana? What, if anything, can we tell from the beginning and end notes or phrases.

I was at a concert with an English woman one day, years ago, and, as I raised my hands to clap for the alapana, she asked how did I know that was ending there? Well, just as a western classical audience member knows the end of a symphony, one has the experience of the phrases used --- but, technically speaking, I have no idea.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 05 Oct 2008, 01:10

sureshjm wrote:
Suji Ram wrote:I usually change the Sruti of the singer/instrumentalist to match the Sruti I am playing/singing in
how would you change that to your playing. probably you do with some software?

You can use Audacity software- free available online.
This way I fix my Sruti and change the recording's. After a while you get the hang of guessing pitches.
And once you learn you can move on to playing independently.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 05 Oct 2008, 03:32

Do you all find it easier to adjust to a male or female shruti? The higher the shruti goes, I find it increasingly difficult to discriminate.

As for alapanais, don't they usually start with madhya shadjam, go up to tara shadjam and even tara panchamam, back down all the way to mandra sthayi for a few concluding phrases (always the sign the alapanai is coming to an end), and then stop at the original madhya shadjam (though some singers like a final twirl of going from mandra sthayi all the way to tara sthayi and back before concluding)? Also the speed of the alapanai always decreases towards the very end as they "set up" the gradual transition towards the sa.

Thanam also has interesting concluding patterns, with phrases ending in tara shadjam, madhya panchamam, and madhya shadjam, shortening into just Sa-Pa-Sa, then a nom-tha-nom-tha... in decreasing speed, and then it's over.

For me, the trouble is still in identifying when a thani is going to finish. I cannot for the life of me discriminate between mohras and farans and the last korvai. All I know is that all the percussionists play together, really quickly, and then the violinist picks up his violin and then it's over.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 Oct 2008, 06:54

For a long time, I thought there is a 'wink and a nod' system going on among the artists for that..

We have had several discussions where that secret was revealed but it is still not quite easy.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 05 Oct 2008, 07:12

I tried cracking that code by reading all the relevant threads in our tala section but unfortunately nothing permeated my admittedly thick skull.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Oct 2008, 08:23

I am willing to admit to having some knowledge of mridangam --- but there are certainly concerts where farans, mohara and korvais have suddenly gone by without my identifying them.

On detecting the sruthi for recorded music, I forgot the obvious: one can often hear the sruthi box! In fact, it is quite often too loud. Even if it is of modest volume during the songs, there is sometimes a few seconds 'lead in' before the artists start

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Oct 2008, 08:57

I think Nick keeps saying that the shruti box is too loud in our concerts too often contradicting our earlier thread that we dont hear the shruti or tampura sound at all in our concerts.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Oct 2008, 11:25

Suji ram ,

I tried my hand on audacity. but coudl not do anything really. little confused . can you tell me how to load a song and change its pitch?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 06 Oct 2008, 00:37

ganesh_mourthy wrote:I tried my hand on audacity. but coudl not do anything really. little confused . can you tell me how to load a song and change its pitch?

Once you select a portion (or all as in Edit -> Select -> All), under Effects you can select "Change Pitch ..". It brings up a dialog in which you fill in how much you want to adjust (I do it by entering it in semitones)

Arun