Sanjay at NGS on 8th Oct 2008- Papanasam Sivan Birth Anniver

grsastrigal · Post by **grsastrigal** » 09 Oct 2008, 19:42

After reading the review of Sanjayâ€™s US Concerts, I expected some vintage one but ended up with â€œanticipatory breachâ€

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 09 Oct 2008, 20:13

Your observations about the men in Sanjay's concert at Papanasam Sivan Birthday anniversary reflected the Indian functions in U.S which turns out to be a walking saree or jewelry shops.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 09 Oct 2008, 20:31

Maname KaNamum MaRavadhe- That is in Bhimplas I think.

After hearing DKJ-MSG combination for Sri Vallidevasenapathe, I have come to the conclusion that it is worth the Sub-Main / Main category

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Oct 2008, 20:39

Sounds like a colourful but resonable concert from Sanjay perpective. Especially with no RTP and with perhaps a time constraint from the sponsors. At any rate you can't expect him to hit a sixer everytime he goes to bat

Lakshman kindly explain the item 2
Polla Puliyiunum- MM Gowla (S)
and prehaps post the lyrics please.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 09 Oct 2008, 21:17

pollAp-puliyinum. rAgA: mAyAmALavagauLa. madhyAdi tALA. Composer: Papanasham Shivan.

P: pollAp-puliyinum pollAk-kodiyan ennai bhuvi tanil En paDaittAi shambhO
A: nallOraik-kanAvilum naNuga mATTEn nalladu sonnAlum kETka mATTEn
C: un nAmam en nAvAlum sollamATTEn uLLezhum kAma krOda madam sollamATTEn
ennALum mUvAsaiyai vella mATTEn en aiyan un AlayattuL sella mATTEn

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Oct 2008, 21:27

Thanks Lakshman

kedharam · Post by **kedharam** » 09 Oct 2008, 22:20

"A known song and Nata bhairavi with his rendering with â€œbhavaâ€

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 09 Oct 2008, 22:20

Lakshmanji,
thanks for the lyrics;
I feel some corrections may be there:
In anupllavi,I feel it may be nAnaNugmATTEn(nAn+aNugamATTENn- I will not approach)
In chraNam it must be defintely 'krOda madam kollamATTEn(I will not kill the kAma, krOda, madam etc which rise within me)
'madam koLLmATTEn'- will just mean the oppossite-I will not possess(or yield) to the kAma,krOD,madam etc.
The words are also rhyming-sollamATTEn, kollamATTEn, vellamATTEN and sellamATTEn.

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 09 Oct 2008, 22:27

There is 'RTP' in natabhairavi by MLV, in which she has taken all the ragas ending in' bhairavi' for ragamalika.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 09 Oct 2008, 22:44

Punavasu: You are right. It is not koLLamATTEn but sollamATTen in the book. The other words are as I posted them. Thanks.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 09 Oct 2008, 22:59

[quote="grsastrigal"]How could you describe a concert where Karaharapriya, Kalyani and Kambodhi rendered as â€œflash newsâ€

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 09 Oct 2008, 23:21

GRS your opening remarks about "anticipatory breach" and dehydration do not quite tally with your description of the items themselves, of which you seem to have enoyed almost all! Anyway thanks for the review - yes, 2 hours for a Sanjay concert is somewhat disappointing but an elaboration of Natabhairavi should have been very interesting - I agree with the posters above - DKJ and MLV have set very high benchmarks for this raga.

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 10 Oct 2008, 01:47

I have also noticed that natabhairavi seems to be favourite of Abhishek Raghuram. He takes it up for elaboration and provides a totally new flavour to the raga. Now I am almost sure that there will be no "anticipatory breach" to comments to the last statement

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Oct 2008, 02:21

Vijay,
What can I say except 'dito, ditto, ditto' to all that you say?
A concert lasting two hours has no room for an RTP . Add to it the speeches--which were an extra obstacle in this case. The long winding talks which make even the audience doze off, would have been an added burden for a jet-lagged traveler. Still, pros do prevail...

kedharam · Post by **kedharam** » 10 Oct 2008, 07:44

Art is a means of expressing emotions to the fullest. Sanjay most probably given the time constraints wanted to do justice to Sivanâ€™s composition â€œ'Sree valli dEva sEnA pathEâ€

s_hari · Post by **s_hari** » 10 Oct 2008, 07:57

I was in chennai on 8th & 9th Oct - 3 items that caught my eyes in news paper on 8th are - Saurav Ganguli retiring - Vidwan G.N.Desikan's death - and Sanjay's concert..

I confirmed with Ram that sanjay is indeed singing in NGS.

after begada outline, ganasudharasam was sung and swaras were rendered at ganasudha and manam kulira. 2nd keerthana was more like Paras to me, even gentleman next to me asked is this paras, at the end of song. Kanada alapana was for about 5 minutes, there was a long karvai in tara stayi shadjam and he got nice applause from audience for this. Initial swaras were in 1 cycle avarthanam - mostly with 3 swaras.. Neraval for kambhodi song was nice and enjoyable, but no swarams. Nata bhairavi was sung is usual sanjay style - brigas, nadaswara pidis. srivalli devasenapathe was sung quite well, couple of times, he split sahitya as "devase napathe", but most of the time it was sung correctly. Kuraipu swarams were ending in rishabam. Korvai was like

G..RS.. GRS.. R.. SN RSN.. S.ND.. SND..
S.. GRSND.. N.. RSNDP.. D.. SNDPM
G..MP GMP.. M..PD MPD.. P..DN PDN..

M..GMPDP P-PDNSN DNSRS
GR.S GRS RS.N RSN SN.D SND..
S. GRSND RSNDP
(my notes is incomplete)

Thani was brisk and lasted about 15 minutes. Tail ender songs enjoyable too. Varadarajan provide able support and his violin was enjoyable also.

The speech ceremony was killing as always!! The function was "truly international" per sabha president - with cleveland sundaram and toranto venkatraman participation. Everyone praised sanjay, and wished him many more awards. Per plan, nalli kuppuswamy & doordarshan natarajan were to preside the function, and sundaram and venkatraman were called in last minute as replacements. Ashok mentioned that sanjay popularized many keerthanas of sivan. After one concert, ashok asked sanjay who's composition was karpagame in behag which he rendered, sanjay told him it is sivans! Sanjay also spoke quite well, and said many vidwans like DKJ, KVN learnt sivan's keerthanas from rukimi ramani and ashok directly. During his speech, sundaram kind of embarrassed sanjay by mentioning that sanjay also learnt from P.S.Narayanaswami

-hari

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 10 Oct 2008, 11:03

Thanks Hari - I think our friend kannama would be quite happy with your review!

Also regarding the split, while we are used to pillorying artistes for splitting sahithya incorrectly, is it not equally the composer's fault, if not more? In so many instances we find that the split seems to be, almost deliberately, at the "wrong" place. In this case, after a langorous PD,ND, for "Devase" and a long pause the song takes a turn in the other direction NDNS for "Napathe"...in subsequent sangathis, there is are some stresses/brighas on "Napathe". Splitting it "correctly" is actually quite awkward from a musical standpoint. I played DKJ's rendition just now and sure enough, he too splits it as "Devase" and "Napathe.

It is not my intention say whether one way or the other is correct. But perhaps the composer's culpability deserves a through everytime such a thing happens. At times, it is possibly the composer's intention to make things a little more difficult by splitting it counter-intuitively...but in many cases, correctly splitting the sahithya comes at the expense of musical aesthetics.

Purist · Post by **Purist** » 10 Oct 2008, 13:36

vijay wrote:Thanks Hari - I think our friend kannama would be quite happy with your review!

Also regarding the split, while we are used to pillorying artistes for splitting sahithya incorrectly, is it not equally the composer's fault, if not more? In so many instances we find that the split seems to be, almost deliberately, at the "wrong" place. In this case, after a langorous PD,ND, for "Devase" and a long pause the song takes a turn in the other direction NDNS for "Napathe"...in subsequent sangathis, there is are some stresses/brighas on "Napathe". Splitting it "correctly" is actually quite awkward from a musical standpoint. I played DKJ's rendition just now and sure enough, he too splits it as "Devase" and "Napathe.

It is not my intention say whether one way or the other is correct. But perhaps the composer's culpability deserves a through everytime such a thing happens. At times, it is possibly the composer's intention to make things a little more difficult by splitting it counter-intuitively...but in many cases, correctly splitting the sahithya comes at the expense of musical aesthetics.

Many a times 'thala' constraint has a role in split at convenient places
when split purely on sahitya is given a go by.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Oct 2008, 23:41

Vijay
Perhaps PS legitimately wanted us to break at devase. Maybe that is how he taught DKJ to sing this famous song

Meaning-wise devasE (To devas i.e., the daughter of Indra which is the devasena) na (not) patE (husband)
or The song is addressed to Valli's and not to devasena's husband.
As we know Valli is the dear sought-after sweet-heart of Muruga and her detested co-wife (chakkaLathi) was forced to get married to Muruga; an arranged marriage! Quite naturally PS is emphasizing the reluctance of accepting devasena into Muruga's fold as very nicely intonated by DKJ.

I hope sanjay Subramanian did justice to the ChakkaLatthi pOrATTam

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 10 Oct 2008, 23:54

I wasn't aware of such deeper meanings CML sir. Thanks!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 11 Oct 2008, 00:23

CML - how do you reconcile the whole pallavI - 'SrI vallI dEvasEnApatE, SrI subrahmaNya namOstutE'? The word is given as dEvasEnApatE in the publication, and not split in the way you say. I don't think the song has any other meaning other than the obvious!

However, I do agree that most singers do split is as dEvasE nApatE (Sri Gurucharan, and Smts. Ranjani and Gayatri being notable exceptions among the many renditions of this compositon that I have heard)

Subbudu's varNam in valaci is one example of a composition that plays on the SakkaLatti theme (annamE aruginil vA...), although, by all accounts, dEvasEna and valli (icca and kriya SaktI) co-existed peacefully.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Oct 2008, 04:20

Glad to see that CML is starting SakkaLatti SaNDaI here and opening the pandora's box elsewhere on the forum! A good sign that our friend is back in full steam--not only with his scholarly input but also with a wink and a smile

Oh, no! Did I say 'wink'? No! Not 'that' wink and not 'that' smile! The election is too much upon us that certain familiar words as I use them, make me jump!

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 11 Oct 2008, 05:16

subrahmaNya is
dEvasEnA pati- the consort(lord) of dEvasEnA ,AND ALSO
dEva sEnApati- the leader of the army (sEnA) of Gods.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Oct 2008, 06:12

Shankar/Arasi
What I wrote is partly in jest and partly serious. Yes we can reconcile the SakkaLathi SaNDai in the case of Valli and deivayanai; esoterically whatever shakti you may call them. First, musically the naTabhairavi is a truculant raga in this case as sung and popularised by DKJ. He particularly and forcefully emphasizes 'na patE' (not husband)with a taara sancaaram NR',S',,. He may not have meant it but the effect is dramatic (I bet devasena would object to it

Note that patE is in the vocative as are the other invocations to Muruga in that song. I agree the rest of the song does not sustain or justify the SakkLathi idiom. However the split sung by DKJ hits you like a brick. There is a beautiful very old 'nATTupuRa paaDal' on valli deivayaanai vaakkuvaadam which has not been set to music yet(would be nice as a dance piece!). It ends with Muruga becoming a paNDaaram a second time unable to bear the heckling by the two wives

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 11 Oct 2008, 06:40

so he followed the dictum-'kURAmal sannyAsam koL'

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Oct 2008, 06:48

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Oct 2008, 06:55

Arasi may recall the popular 1940;s gramaphone record by TA Nagaswamy Bhagavathar (in naTabhairavi ?)
reNDu peNDaaTikkAran paaDu mahaa thiNDATTaM...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Oct 2008, 07:37

CML,
Wish I had heard it! Anyway, what about those men who have 'two' fold trouble with just a single 'kaLatti'?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Oct 2008, 07:47

peNDATTi illAthAn pADu orE koNDATTaM

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Oct 2008, 08:26

Coming back to Vijay's point about splitting words and the fact that composers sometimes contribute to it: yes, it happens sometimes--even with mahA composers. If the singer is sensitive to the lyrics, she will try and avoid it, but sometimes one cannot. It also depends on how you heard it sung in the first place, or how it was taught to you.
For example: This afternoon, I was humming 'kshINamai' and as I came to the anupallavi, I stopped. I was singing it this way: vANa nATaka alankARa vEDa--and repeated it again. Hold it, I said! I had to continue with 'purANa yagna japatapAdula phalamulu'. Not the other way, with vE...da' hanging in the air! Then I realized that a mahA vidwAn had taught me that particular song, and that was how he was taught too, perhaps! And his guru was a composer that we all admire. This was a composition by none other than tyAgarAjA, and my guru's guru who would have been most sensitive about sAhityA, sang it that way, perhaps!
As a lowly composer, I have this to say. Yes, the words fall in place as it were, as the song comes out of you. However, there are a few compound words in a couple of my songs which bother me because I have to labor to make them flow as one word!
From the vocalist's point? Yes,being sensitive about the sAhityam enhances one's rendering. However, little sacrifices have to be made, in order to highlight other aspects of one's singing--necessary at times, because the momentum of the music can mean more at that point. My only problem is when someone sings the line, chopping it into bite-size chunks in a meaningless fashion, just to accomodate a tAlam demo!
Coming back to Sanjay, he is one of those musicians who invests a lot of emotion in his singing. That bhAvAnubhavam (was it Cienu who has introduced this apt word in our exchanges?) he shares with his audience makes very little difference when it comes to singing it a la DKJ...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Oct 2008, 08:29

CML,
You mean, for the one who has double the trouble?

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 11 Oct 2008, 12:37

grsastrigal wrote:3) Kantimati-Kanada ( R S)

This was the crown of the concert. I never heard a Kanada from Sanjay so far. In a slow pace he brought the entire beauty of this and Kantimati was the apt Kriti for that day, being the ending of Navrathiri.....

In a lighter note, Ghatam vidwan came in Yellow shirt, Durai Mamaâ€™s Mridhangam is covered with Blue and the Carpet on the stage is Green and other guys sitting around the artists wear different color shirt, it resembled me of Pothys or Cheenai silks ??. (May be indicating Dussera festival !!!)

In a lighter note, Sanjay turned his head towards Cleveland Sundaram when he sang the words "Tamravarni vada karai" in this kriti in a nod toward Sri Sundaram's native place, which was sure appreciated by Ashok Ramani who got the meaning.

I was hoping somehow Sanjay would pull out a song with a reference to Lake Ontario so that Toronto Venkataraman would not feel slighted. If Sirkazhi Sivachidambaram could sing "Lord Muruga London Muruga" at the London Murugan Temple, surely someone of the caliber of cmlover could oblige Sanjay by penning a song on Canada... maybe a version of "O Canada"?

ram · Post by **ram** » 11 Oct 2008, 13:46

harimau wrote:In a lighter note, Sanjay turned his head towards Cleveland Sundaram when he sang the words "Tamravarni vada karai" in this kriti in a nod toward Sri Sundaram's native place, which was sure appreciated by Ashok Ramani who got the meaning.

I was hoping somehow Sanjay would pull out a song with a reference to Lake Ontario so that Toronto Venkataraman would not feel slighted. If Sirkazhi Sivachidambaram could sing "Lord Muruga London Muruga" at the London Murugan Temple, surely someone of the caliber of cmlover could oblige Sanjay by penning a song on Canada... maybe a version of "O Canada"?

A different take on this: Since Sri Toronto Venkataraman said at the function that he and Sri Cleveland Sundaram always go together (like Sri Nalli Chettiar and Doordarshan Sri Natarajan

), there can't be two separate songs for them. So the reference in the lyrics was towards Sri Sundaram, while the rAgA itself was referring to Sri Venkataraman (kAnaDA = Canada)

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 11 Oct 2008, 14:58

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 11 Oct 2008, 16:12

Maname Kanamum = Bhimplas, indeed.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Oct 2008, 20:53

Ram,

During the season, when those who come from Canada and those who hail from the copper hued riverside and pretty paddy fence hear the song, they will be pleased, indeed. Love for one's habitat and that of one's ancestors has a beautiful expresssion in tamizh: maN vADai. Just as childhood memories of the smell of the earth after the first drops of rain...

Ragjay · Post by **Ragjay** » 11 Oct 2008, 21:25

Mahesh I have posted a concert of DKJ in the company of Lalgudi Jayaraman and Vellore Ramabadhran. There he sings the Natabhairavi piece as a main item and it is an extraordinary rendition as a main item He also sings a raga alapana of Saranga Malhar and informs he did sing the alapana so that all may hear Lalgudi Jayaraman play and goes on to praise him and he sings the arohana and avorhana of the raga and Lalgudi Jayaraman plays along with him and talks about this creation of HMB and it is followed by a brilliant exposition of the raga by Lalgudi..Jayaraman The concert is posted in sangeethamshare .org...... Bye Ragjay

vinayo · Post by **vinayo** » 12 Oct 2008, 01:05

Ragjay , Can you pl give us the link for the DKJ_LGJ concert?

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 12 Oct 2008, 08:39

It takes a ram to spot kamAs in ,,,,,,,, and CANADA in kAnaDA.

arsi, true, call it maN vADai or maN vAsanai; the very mention of it brings nostalgic memories.
jananI jaanma bhUmischa swargAdapi garIyasI- mother and motherland are greater than heaven and so is the place of one's birth.

Ragjay · Post by **Ragjay** » 12 Oct 2008, 09:46

It is alredy posted but the moderators feel it requires audio refinement and this was also my specific request. Once it is done the same will be notified... Thanks for the request.....Since one is not allowed to post it in this thread as per our norms I am not in a position to oblige you. More of such concerts which are not in circulation are to be uploaded. It is my intention to share all that I have after conversion so that all the rasikas can enjoy...Bye Ragjay

harigiri · Post by **harigiri** » 12 Oct 2008, 21:48

grsastrigal wrote:I don't understand why 4 persons were sitting around Sanjay doing nothing. In fact, they were disturbing audience attnetion by smile, occasional chat.

Even TM Krishna follows the same trend. In those days, in the absence of recording facility disciples used to sit next to guru during concerts to watch the fine distinctions. But now it has become a fashion.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Oct 2008, 22:15

One plays the tamburA. The other three--would have been the four Sishyas who are singing in a series of concerts, at present. To closely listen to their guru, as in the old days, I guess...!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 12 Oct 2008, 23:23

Well I like to see a stage full of Tamburas, students and even rasikas...it lends a nice atmosphere...which is one reason Academy concerts are so special...

Ramaprasad · Post by **Ramaprasad** » 13 Oct 2008, 02:30

Shishyas and others sitting on stage behind the artist is not new, you will all agree. Nobody seems to have made any fuss in the past. Please count the number of persons on stage sitting behind SSI in the link given below. This is just a randomly selected example.

Vijay
I agree with you, as long as they all behave with dignity befitting a concert stage (and also, don't get up during thani !!!)

http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/semmangudi.html

Ramaprasad

kannama · Post by **kannama** » 13 Oct 2008, 05:08

Nice point vijay. Yes, the review by s_hari was exactly the sort of thing I enjoy. We need to see more such reviews here.

The original post was an example of the sort of "review" (I'll wash my mouth at this point) that gets my goat. I only hope grsastrigal was trying to be funny in his/her original post. If not, (s)he was borderline rude and most certainly disrespectful.

The points that "grs" makes about the color on the stage convinces me that one who can't talk cogently about music talks about the quality of food in the cafe and the colour of clothing that mamis and mamas are wearing. That was the point I made in the other thread. If one can't talk in depth about a cover drive on a pitch that has variable bounce, one can only talk about the scoreboard and the facilities in the stadia.

"grs" does ask a reasonable question though on why people sit behind the artists. This is part of our sampradaya. It is like asking why can we not see Bombay Jayashri give a concert, clad in jeans and a kurthi!

Agreed, if the students distract the main game, it can be an eyesore and a mark of disrespect.

The students are there to assist the guru. They are also there to learn to sit in a spot for 3 hours. Classes with the guru are often an hour only these days. And at practice at home, students can often get up and move around. At a concert, they are forced to sit for 3 hours. Not really easy, according to most students that I have spoken to. They are there to also learn. A student once told me that it isn't really easy to move from a planned/set concert repertoire to one that involves a repertoire-change midway; a repertoire-change that is based on sensing audience response. How does a student sense audience feedback. How does a student learn to dynamically model a concert based on who the receivers are? This was the only known way to impart that training. This was used this as a means of delivering experiential learning to students who are about to embark on a career in music.

ratnam · Post by **ratnam** » 27 Nov 2008, 17:56

I am soory none of the reviewers wrote of his Kambodi rendition. I enjoyed it. I am looking forward to Charsur hosting the performance in their website for free downloading.Kudos to Sanjay