Role of parents in learning music- Child's view

[appu]

We have heard from parents, potential parents and others. Unanimously everybody seems to think NRI parents are approaching the music education all wrong. Let us hear from these wonderful kids who are asked to go through this. Do you enjoy learning Carnatic Music. Are you doing this strictly because parents want you to. Your thoughts could range from topics including soccer practice, karate class, Bal Vihar, music dance etc.

Please pen your thoughts. Of course you children are the future of this beautiful music. All the children who participated in the Cleveland aradhana. Did the experience enrich your knowledge of music and culture. Do you feel snippets of your performance should be uploaded on You Tube for the world to see. Would love to hear your response.

[arunk]

Lot of valid points (I am certainly not a big fan of hyped up marketing)

But IMO all of this is muddled in typical, tiresome moral high-ground squatting common with us carnatic rasikas (yes - rasikas more than the pros themselves).

Many of these kids will become rasikas (i.e. opposed to pros) about 20 years from now. At that time, they will find the permanent moral stiff upperlip of the then grayed out mamas and mamis (i.e. you and I) extremely humourous and and go "There goes the old sob again - does he/she knows anything better than to point out who else is doing what in the not so proper way"

In any case, the topic heading is highly sensationalistic and with downright ugly overtones. Besides all this does not apply to the angelic, divine, blessed children in India? Give me break! Atleast make it Submissive children and lets be an equal opportunity offender

Arun


PS: Partly delivered in jest - or may be not

[appu]

Arunk,

The title was more point in cheek. Given the previous topic of "Pushy NRI Parents, I came up with the title, just for contrast. I do not see any ugly overtones in asking the kids to express their sentiments.

[arunk]

Your request is fine, the wording of the title still comes off ugly. Hey - but to each his own

(also my views apply to both topics - perhaps more to the other one than this. To be honest I thought there was only one thread!!! I do remember vaguely thinking - I dont remember the title as this - LOL! )

[appu]

Once again to be fair to the topic and not deviate from the intent of the question, I shall edit the title to read Submissive children in music.

[arunk]

appu - that suggestion "submissive children" i made was in jest! I have trouble with asking the opinions of youth under the label "submissive" - that is where I thought it came off not nice. It implies (or could be interpreted as) you have already judged them as such while asking "is it really so?"

So if am renaming the title, I would use something other than submissive - something which does not label them

Again - just my opinion.

Arun

[sramaswamy]

appu

I think what you meant to ask the children a question

Children - Are your parents pushy?

You might get more children being submissive to the question

[suma]

appu,
recently in chicago an organization conducted children's day. i forgot what the category was called, but a guy had a bunch of chits in a hat. each kid would have to pick up one chit and go into the green room for 3 minutes. then the kid would have 1 min to talk about that topic in his chit in front of the audience and 2 seniors were selected as judges. it is not related to music but had leadership, best hobby for you and why, best and worst in your mom etc. while the kids are preparing in the 3 min's, the other kids would speak, so the audience was occupied.

i forgot what the topic was, but for this kid, it seemed like an opening to burst out her feelings. she declared to the world that her mom is pushy at her "sister" more and in her own innocent way kept on saying, "yes mom, u do that, you push di a lot, blah blah blah" until the audience burst into laughter not knowing how to react. it was so funny to watch a 9 year old melt out in public about her mom and sis.

[arasi]

Funny? I don't know. Why was such a question asked in the first place? Nothing good can come out of a quesion of that nature--and to give three minutes for the children to think about something as emotionally charged as that to share with the audience! I say that because a child who does not feel pushed or does not even 'feel' for no reason it is being pushed would have come out with the answer, 'no, my parents encourage me a lot, but don't push'.
I think that question was insensitive. While dealing with children, it is better to use positive words.
mridangam kid can comment here. He is a mature youngster on the forum.
As for the title of the thread, 'What do children think about the role of their parents in learning music?' sounds better to me...

[appu]

As for the title of the thread, 'What do children think about the role of their parents in learning music?' sounds better to me...

Taking arasi's recommendation, i edit the title to read as above

[kamakshi]

Hi,

I just wanted to add my two cents on being a kid, an amateur singer and dancer, who was born and brought up in America by NRI parents, who were anything but pushy. I think there exists a distinct line between pushiness and dedication. I’ve been singing seriously from around the time I was eight and dancing long before that ( I actually begged my parents to let me learn dance as no one has ever done that in my family). My parents used to drive me two hours to and from music class which was taught by an elderly mami. Most of the time, we would wind up just staying with the mami for both Saturday and Sunday. The music classes wouldn’t just be the stereotypical classes, but they would be intense sessions that lasted the entire day with me singing while the mami cooked or did her japas. She also was into all the madi/aachaaram, consequently, my entire family lived like that - waking at 4 in the morning, bathing early, virudham - the whole package. However, I always loved singing for the entire weekend. I would perhaps be singing a Shankarabharanam ragam and she would stop and be like ‘oh! I remember when TRS sir one day said"¦ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢ and I would learn so much from all those episodes she would narrate, or randomly she would wake at 3 in the morning and would say, ‘seekiramaa kulichitu ksheera saagara kathukko’ (bathe quickly and learn ksheera saagara) and if I remember correctly, that day I had nothing to eat for the class ran all day with me just repeating sangathis. At the time, it seemed like a huge pain, but today, I realize how solid that way of learning music is. Over time, I started learning in India and seeing my interest, my parents agreed to take me every year (this was my birthday and Christmas gifts all rolled into one ). My teachers there are some of the most wonderful people ever. Learning with TRS mama, there are days where I will sit through many groups of people who will come to learn and I would learn so many songs or pick up on many different approaches to alapanai or swara singing or just enjoy the funny anecdotes he would tell me. There were times when I was 9 and 10 when I would cry all the while singing complex kanakku swarams and TRS mama wouldn’t notice because he would have his eyes closed, but I never once thought of quitting. Sanjay mama would be just as intense leaving me pretty frustrated by the end (but I never cried ).

Regarding practice, until the age of around 9 my parents would tell me to practice, but after that, music became just one of those things I do - just like eating or sleeping. To this day, in college I sing around 2-3 hours a day and when I don’t I call my mother all frazzled and she will tell me that it’s ok, just one day, but I refuse to listen to her and continue to worry all day - what would my teachers say? Dance is similar fare - I enjoy practicing. Sometimes there are days I will just be listening to a certain song and spontaneously get up and try some abhinaya for the particular line. As much as I love to sing to myself informally, I also love to perform, but my parents never were pushy to get me good concert spots or call up so and so and pester them or whatever - it usually just falls into place. Actually, most of the time, even after so many years of practice, I am afraid to perform on stage and my teachers have to encourage me to get on stage and sing. My parents were never pushy in that respect. I think all the dedication they had early in my life was actually a huge blessing to me. My parents’ (and my gurus’ and the rest of my family’s) subtle but important role in my music and dance education was never a push and I really appreciate it.

[arasi]

Great to hear from you, Kamakshi!
You put us old-timers to shame! Wish I were as diligent as you are in learning music, in my younger days...

[sankirnam]

Learning music itself is a complex process, whether it is vocal, violin, or mrudangam (let us confine ourselves to Carnatic music for the sake of this discussion). The teacher needs to patient and able to assess the abilities of the student, the student has to be willing to learn, the parents have to willing to support, and a conducive atmosphere has to be developed at home. Of course, the success rate of these variables coinciding is indeed pretty high, as seen by all the young musicians in Chennai in the junior and sub-senior slots.

If this itself seems daunting (all the variables have to come together correctly to produce a future musician), then it is doubly complicated in the US. Like TNS sir said in my arangetram last year, kids in the US are just that much more busy with more extra-curricular activities and whatnot. Also, there is the cultural dilution factor.. the music is competing with so many other forms of entertainment. So actually I would say that it requires more diligence or a greater love for the art to actually desire to learn it properly and stick with it while living in the US or abroad.

Coming to the topic of parents... like I said earlier, their job is to support the child (whether financially or emotionally or otherwise) and provide the right atmosphere at home. The right atmosphere is one which allows the child to practice regularly without inhibitions. Parents also play a role later in the child's career when concert level is reached. Of course, when the child reaches "concert level" is something that ONLY the guru can decide. Parents will always be partial to their children... to any parent, their child will always be the best vocalist/violinist/mrudangist in the world. Only the guru can properly assess the child's capabilities and readiness.

The other thing I failed to mention is that music is not something that can be learned quickly. It is not like math, which can be broken down into simple concepts which can then be learned and applied. Music is highly emotional, and it is not something that can be learned from pieces of paper or textbooks. If I show you a piece of paper with all the key sancharas of Thodi written down, can you sing a thodi alapanai from that? Definetely not. The assimilation process takes its own time.

In Chennai now we are seeing a spurt of youngsters (now age 10-17 yrs old) playing like prodigies (I'll just say that 3 such from the previous generation were Ravikiran, Shashank, and Mandolin Srinivas). Prodigies will only be formed when the conditions are absolutely correct. The atmosphere at home has to be absolutely dedicated to music to produce such children. In Chennai, which has been having the legends of our music giving concerts there for years, the likelihood of such conditions existing in homes/families there is much likelier than in the US. Of course, the eager parents in the US are also trying to see the latent talents in their children and keep them on par with kids in Chennai. As a corollary to what I was saying earlier, learning music while living abroad will just take that much longer because of the relative scarcity of concerts and dedicated gurus/established vidwans as compared to Chennai.

This phenomenon results in what we percieve as "pushy parents". I'll stop here, and I hope this is enough

[appu]

Very well said Sankirnam. Your statements show maturity far beyond your ears.

[Nick H]

There is a key element that just occurs to me in the 'pushy parent' syndrome, and it makes all the difference: the motivation of the parent concerned.

The worst kind of pushy parenting results from the desire that the children shall be points on the parents' score card. Parenting for the glorification of the parent. I have a feeling that that is the core ingredient of the kind of parenting that these two threads are all about.

[Narada]

Is Kamakshi real or is she Neel Kamal's sister ? 2-3 hours of music practice everyday in COLLEGE?!

[kamakshi]

nah I'm real...

[VK RAMAN]

kamakshi: your parents did condition you for what you are today from the early childhood. In India too, people do not feel any bad if they stand in line for hours to pick up grocery, or to get into public bus, or walk through garbage filled street or they are hazzled by a taxi driver or a coolie at the railway station. They are conditioned to that life style. CMLover somewhere in the same kind of topic used the abreviation "CA"?

[arunk]

perhaps it would be somhow more illuminating to find out from the professionals as to what their parents' role was during their early years?

Like sankirnam says to make it out as a professional requires a lot of hard work to bring out the talent. And this needs parent's help. But is it possible that many of us are tacitly presuming that for most if not all the professionals who made out (take top ones today and yester-years, those legends who are elevated to god status), this somehow happened out of their own, with parents providing a gentle, caressing touch ? I would not be surprised that this wasnt the case that many a time, a parent had to (gasp!) be pushy (in terms of pushing the child towards a lot of hard work when the child slackened)?

Arun

[appu]

I attended a violin concert once presided by Shri MSG in New Delhi. In his speech he mentioned the following. To attain perfection in this instrument one janmam (life) is not sufficient. The violin is an instrument that eagerly waits to produce a wrong note. So learning from great vidwans means nothing if the student does not practice for 5 to 6 hours each day. So when Kamakshi states that she practices 3 hrs, I am inclined to believe.

[keeravani]

"It is not like math, which can be broken down into simple concepts which can then be learned and applied." - Learning and applying concepts in math is about the same as learning music from sheets and reproducing it. Why beat down an equally (and in many ways more universal) valid art form?

Sankirnam, you kind of say that the art form is hard, and has a learning curve and hence needs the parents to push the children through it so that they reap the rewards later. Agreed. I am guessing that the main debate about the parents is not about them pushing their children to learn but if they have the "right" goals for their children (i.e making them able to emote and appreciate in the language of the art form) rather than telling them that performing at 15 and getting publicity is what matters. (i.e. "everybody seems to think NRI parents are approaching the music education all wrong.")

I am not trying to argue for either side - im just thinking that maybe people are not very peeved by parents who make their children practice 5 hrs a day but by ones that make a huge hue and cry about their child and making them perform and making them think that performance is what counts.

I think the debate would be more interesting if the question is not about how heavy the backpack is, but what the school teaches.

[Narada]

im just thinking that maybe people are not very peeved by parents who make their children practice 5 hrs a day but by ones that make a huge hue and cry about their child and making them perform and making them think that performance is what counts.

Let's be honest here. I think most people realize at some level that not all these kids are prodigies and geniuses. Yet the mere fact that they are NRI and play/sing carnatic music guarantees them a certain amount of attention. (to quote Samuel Johnson, " .. is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all") "Prodigies" like this in Chennai won't find an opportunity to accompany a well known artist, or have senior mridangists or violinists accompany them. This naturally rankles.

So learning from great vidwans means nothing if the student does not practice for 5 to 6 hours each day. So when Kamakshi states that she practices 3 hrs, I am inclined to believe.

If true, I'm impressed. My observation is that these same NRI parents don't think about their "exit strategy" too much. While the kid is young, the stress is on performing and getting recognized as a prodigy. This gets both the kid and the parent a lot of recognition and social cachet. But once past this age, you will be looked down upon if your kid is not going to Ivy League; so the budding musician is expected to drop all this and focus on what really matters, doing well in college!

This is not unreasonable, as even a mediocre college graduate can make a better living than a rather good musician. After all, how many concerts per musician can, say, New York support? Once a year? How does the musician eat the rest of the time? If they are lucky, teaching. But that's about it ..

Anyway, a few random observations to stir the pot .. do carry on.

[kamakshi]

My observation is that these same NRI parents don't think about their "exit strategy" too much. While the kid is young, the stress is on performing and getting recognized as a prodigy. This gets both the kid and the parent a lot of recognition and social cachet. But once past this age, you will be looked down upon if your kid is not going to Ivy League; so the budding musician is expected to drop all this and focus on what really matters, doing well in college!

There is absolutely no need to drop everything and "focus" on studies. I am at MIT right now and I'm able to balance everything out as I have always been doing. I have many friends at equally presitigious colleges and equally good in studies who also are as dedicated to the arts. In fact, the Ivy leagues encourage students to keep up with their hobbies and passions and pick students who are capable of handling their studies while being as dedicated to some other passion such as music, sports, etc.

[sramaswamy]

kamakshi

We are thoroughly impressed with you (including your name). You are truly a role model. We wish you all the best in both your studies as well as arts.

[Narada]

Kamakshi, this is great. You seem to have the capacity to do justice to both your music and your career. This is something most of us can only strive for. I'll look forward to seeing you sing at some future event, hopefully. I've heard Suhas Rao on the Violin, who's also supposed to be at MIT..

But my comment was more directed at the 90%+ of kids who really can't do both, who are not prodigies but have "prodiginess" thrust upon them, in both music and dance.

[same]

Kamakshi Are you Mathura from Clevland:)

[Nick H]

Yet the mere fact that they are NRI and play/sing carnatic music guarantees them a certain amount of attention. (to quote Samuel Johnson, " .. is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all")

Not in London it doesn't; there are hundreds, maybe even thousands (?!) of youngsters learnng carnatic music and dance.

Whilst it is true that there are parents with dillusions about their childrens' abilities (and also in India, surely?) I think it is obvious to most that there are a small handful that stand above the rest.

We had maybe better drop this NRI tag too: the majority of these young musicians in London are of Sri Lankan origin.

[srikrishna]

Learning music itself is a complex process, whether it is vocal, violin, or mrudangam (let us confine ourselves to Carnatic music for the sake of this discussion). The teacher needs to patient and able to assess the abilities of the student, the student has to be willing to learn, the parents have to willing to support, and a conducive atmosphere has to be developed at home. Of course, the success rate of these variables coinciding is indeed pretty high, as seen by all the young musicians in Chennai in the junior and sub-senior slots.

If this itself seems daunting (all the variables have to come together correctly to produce a future musician), then it is doubly complicated in the US. Like TNS sir said in my arangetram last year, kids in the US are just that much more busy with more extra-curricular activities and whatnot. Also, there is the cultural dilution factor.. the music is competing with so many other forms of entertainment. So actually I would say that it requires more diligence or a greater love for the art to actually desire to learn it properly and stick with it while living in the US or abroad.

Coming to the topic of parents... like I said earlier, their job is to support the child (whether financially or emotionally or otherwise) and provide the right atmosphere at home. The right atmosphere is one which allows the child to practice regularly without inhibitions. Parents also play a role later in the child's career when concert level is reached. Of course, when the child reaches "concert level" is something that ONLY the guru can decide. Parents will always be partial to their children... to any parent, their child will always be the best vocalist/violinist/mrudangist in the world. Only the guru can properly assess the child's capabilities and readiness.

The other thing I failed to mention is that music is not something that can be learned quickly. It is not like math, which can be broken down into simple concepts which can then be learned and applied. Music is highly emotional, and it is not something that can be learned from pieces of paper or textbooks. If I show you a piece of paper with all the key sancharas of Thodi written down, can you sing a thodi alapanai from that? Definetely not. The assimilation process takes its own time.

In Chennai now we are seeing a spurt of youngsters (now age 10-17 yrs old) playing like prodigies (I'll just say that 3 such from the previous generation were Ravikiran, Shashank, and Mandolin Srinivas). Prodigies will only be formed when the conditions are absolutely correct. The atmosphere at home has to be absolutely dedicated to music to produce such children. In Chennai, which has been having the legends of our music giving concerts there for years, the likelihood of such conditions existing in homes/families there is much likelier than in the US. Of course, the eager parents in the US are also trying to see the latent talents in their children and keep them on par with kids in Chennai. As a corollary to what I was saying earlier, learning music while living abroad will just take that much longer because of the relative scarcity of concerts and dedicated gurus/established vidwans as compared to Chennai.

This phenomenon results in what we percieve as "pushy parents". I'll stop here, and I hope this is enough

[srikrishna]

``It is not like math, which can be broken down into simple concepts which can then be learned and applied. ''

On a serious note, I have found my musician friends confuse this issue time and again. First of all, I do not think one should compare one field with another; each field is as deep as any other; the depth that one perceives is only limited by one's imagination. I have had an issue with people saying that math can be taught but music is much more difficult to teach and so on. The math that is taught in high schools is very much like sarali varasai and janta varasai in music. To provide long lasting contributions to any field requires a level of creativity and commitment that can only be seen in extra-ordinary individuals such as Saint Tyagaraja or a Gauss.

On a lighter vein, I would think children want their parents to be (1) good chauffeurs, (2) ATMs and (3) sufficiently interested in music to the extent that they would satisfy (1) and (2) but be ignorant about the intricacies of music so that they do not place any hurdles in their way of learning from their guru . I saw a video on youtube where Sanjay Subramaniam mentions something similar to (3).

[arasi]

You can count prodigies on your fingers.'Talented, gifted, has a great flair' are the words we need to use with most of these youngsters. And it is great to be talented, gifted or have a great flair for the arts. Not many are endowed that way at all. It is better to be all the above than a prodigy, I would imagine.
Gifted, having immense interest, keen on spending hours on practice, encouragement from parents--all these make an ideal combination...

[vasanthakokilam]

Kamakshi, this is great. You seem to have the capacity to do justice to both your music and your career. This is something most of us can only strive for. I'll look forward to seeing you sing at some future event, hopefully. I've heard Suhas Rao on the Violin, who's also supposed to be at MIT..

But my comment was more directed at the 90%+ of kids who really can't do both, who are not prodigies but have "prodiginess" thrust upon them, in both music and dance.

Narada: I am glad that you acknowledged that Kamakshi is doing great. But where do you get the 90%+ number? If that is just a gut feel, please state so. If all you are saying is 90% of them do not become music professionals, that is obviously true.

I have some statistics from a dance school near me. 6 to 8 students go through arangetram every year. This usually happens in the senior year. 80% of them go off to top ranked colleges. 80% of those students keep up with the dance to the extent they participate in professional dance programs around the country organized by the dance school ( where they get paid some money for participation).

[appu]

Sankirnam, From your above post I understand you play the mridangam. Are you performing in the music season. Would like to hear you. Are any of our other young artistes performing this music season. Please post dates and times. Let us all attend and encourage these youngsters.

[sankirnam]

Appu, I sent you a private e-mail a few days ago, please check your inbox.