Pushy NRI parents

manikand28 · Post by **manikand28** » 26 Oct 2008, 23:04

my take is : go to a teacher and let the teacher mould a kid. there are some excellent teachers everyehere and i feel it is perfectly alright to push kids to a healthy level. otherwise we will miss out on futur musicians. if 1000 kids are pushed and given proper encouragement 1 or 2 good 7 PM music academy musicians will be produced. we have to try. mix music with other activities too. School, music, + one sport + one activity chess.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Oct 2008, 05:29

Here is a current Case History.

Mr X was a recent immigrant to NA who had a 10 year-old daughter and he had a passion for CM though neither he or his wife had the opportunity to learn CM as children. He approached a local teacher of CM (who had a bloated ego due to her contacts in the music world at Chennai) to train his daughter. After a couple of lessons the teacher advised him that his daughter was 'unfit' to learn CM since her accent was bad and also her voice was not appropriate. Mr X was furious and decided to make alternate arrangements. His friend, a retired psychiatrist ( call him P) advised him to drop the matter and let the child develop her own personal interests which was in sports. Some other friends suggeested getting a CM teacher from India and putting the child through a rigorous training. He accordingly during the summer (there is no school) got a well-expereinced CM teacher from India to come and reside with him and do 'Gurukula vaasam' for the child. He was very hard on the child as well as the teacher asking them to spend in excess of 12 hrs per day on CM. The teacher told him that it would take 3 to 4 years to attain some maturity in CM which cannot be attained during the course of three months. Mr X would not give up and he insisted often physically 'beating' the child whenever she was slackening. He would wake up at 4 a.m and force the child to engage in voice training. He also coaxed her giving her some expensive electronic Toys, a pet dog as well as chocolates for a 'good' performance.The teacher spent some early time correcting the 'accent' of the child and she did succeed in it and she then proceeded to teach CM at an accelerated rate. She put the child through voice training and full-throated 'akaara saadhanai'. Since Mrs X was fully in agreement with her husband the child had no other recourse. About this time Mr X entered the child at a national music competition for pre-teenagers and wanted the teacher to groom her for the same. The teacher who knew the nature of the competition trained the child vigorously on an attractive kriti which she could execute flawlessly. The judges at the competition were from chennai who were greatly impressed and they awarded 'First prize' to the child and also commended the teacher for the 'excellent' training. Mr X has now set his goal at Cleveland and has started grooming the child. The teacher has gone back to India but is keeping in touch with the child through skype and telephone.

Recently Mr X did the navaratri rounds with the child and she impressed the circuit with her newly-learned kritis. The local teacher however is 'not impressed' (which Mr X labels 'jealousy') and is finding flaws in the performance which are partly true since the 'child' is attempting to sing like an adult through sheer imitation. Though Mr P had warned, Mr X has paid no attention. Mr P has observed psychological changes in the child such as unwillingness to play with other children, aloofness as well as some stuttering while making frequent eye-contacts with her parents checking for 'political correctness'.

Thankfully the schools have reopened.

The case is in progress!

Post Script: The experiment seems to have mobilized support among some members in the Indian community to attepmt the same with their own children since collectively they could afford the expenses, but the irony is that the teacher is now becoming comparatively too expensive and has shot up her price

Mr P is being rebuked as brain-washed for practising Western Medicine against the time-tested native Indian Wisdom

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 27 Oct 2008, 08:18

For crying out loud!

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 27 Oct 2008, 11:43

Wow... that's scary.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 27 Oct 2008, 13:40

That is just dreadful, and one wonders how anybody could be as simply plain stupid as those parents, who will quite possibly be wondering, in the future, what on earth they did to make their children hate them and why those children have not only forsaken 'their culture', but quite likely taken up with some of the less good stuff from their American culture. The story might very well turn out to deserve the subtitle, How we forced our pre-teenage daughter into sex and drugs with carnatic music.

The parents will soundly deserve every last bit of the backlash --- but it will pointless, because they will probably never understand why it happened. In fact, to draw from the palette of stereotypes, they may simply bemoan what god has sent them, but it is all in his hands, and what could they do.

The poor girl deserves none of it, of course; nor does the music and the culture deserve to have this done in its name.

CMlover, that is an eye-opening post; I had never thought of such extremes. It must make your heart bleed to see and know such cases.

Of course, different cultures have similar and different ways of screwing up their children. One British comedy series even had a running sketch on the hyper-critical high-pressure father.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Oct 2008, 20:00

Nick
The real tragedy is that this case is touted as a success story among the local Indian community. No doubt some parents may resort to our old stone-age-time-tested corporeal punishment (even starvation ) for 'behaviour modification' . We do have the Laws and social support agencies in the West who will act but at times the treatment is worse than the cure!
This is a complex issue; but then Who's to Bell the Cat!

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 27 Oct 2008, 22:27

The roles of the two teachers is also disheartening to read about. The first one writes-off the child's ability to learn and judges her unfit. The second one collaborates in the abuse for the sake of .... what? Earning a few dollars?

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 28 Oct 2008, 01:55

CMLover - thank you for your input in this very sensitive issue. I hope, the entire discussion will bring some change in the attitude of those parents who in the name of love for music end of up making wrong steps in the life of their kids.

manikand28 · Post by **manikand28** » 28 Oct 2008, 05:08

This is indeed an eyeopening story. but I am not sure how much is true, I have a feeling parts of it may be exxagerated. I am not sure what relation the poster had to parents to get all those details. The local media may be glaringly admitting to success of prizes won. Well, i will discount the western Mr P also. I listen to some very conservative talk shows and they say old says in US where kids were spanked turned out perfectly alright. Yes, extreme is bad, but these days political correctness in US is just too bad. Unless you are strict, kids will not learn. But physical torture, yes should be banned. How do you think China wins all those medals in Olympics? They send kids at age 3 to boarding school and it is only practice, practice, and practice. If any country does that they will be top medal winner in Olympics or any sport/arts/games/studies etc. How much we want to sacrifice for what is the question.

Let us not always say pushy parents are bad. How do you think many National spelling bees champions are all Indians. It is just because of pushy parents. No IQ. Sheer perseverance and hard work

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Oct 2008, 06:02

The story is 100% true. There is no exaggeration Professional integrity forbids revelation of other intimate family details. Suffice to say that CA goes hand in hand with WA.

Generally Indian culture is more tolerant of these practices. They sincerely believe that these are done in the interest of the future of the child. It used to be the norm in SI in the olden days. Perhaps it is still rampant but they are looked down upon in the West and the parents are legally liable and in extreme cases will lose custody of the child.

Please do not justify and equate with Olympics Training under authoritarian regimes since we know a lot on the physical and psychological damage to those medal winners.

As Nick correctly points out many among us will take refuge under the Karma Theory than trust modern Psychology and for them the end justifies the means. If so, Case closed!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Oct 2008, 06:36

CML, The troubling part of the story for me is the mention of "beating". Everything else can go either way ( 10+ hours of practise, the "carrot" of electronic gadgets etc. ). On the subject of "beating", how reliable is that information? Definitely, they would not have done it in front of others. I am not implying you were writing falsehood, but if the information came from secondary sources, what is your assessment on the % chance that it actually happened?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Oct 2008, 07:01

CML,
Sorry, the case is not closed. I need to say the following. After that, I will shut my trap.
A professional presented a case here. That's all. Life CAN be stranger than fiction.
A beating hand is not a guiding hand. Aggressive pushing is not gentle persuasion. And that is a mantra for parents.
Spelling bees are not for all. The bullying we find in the previous posts--if it enters the realm of children who take part in such competitions, their growth is impeded. Competitions, if they are healthy, are fine. If they mean excluding the child from taking part in all other normal activities, then it is not healthy.
A true genius of a child might want to be immersed in music without the parents even asking him to do so. Even then, he should be encouraged to pursue a few other activities outside of music, so as to savor his childhood.
To imagine one's child as a genius, whether he is just gifted, or not even so, is being unkind to a child. If it is a performing monkey that those parents have in mind, they are in the wrong track.
A well-endowed child, even when his parents pay little attention to his gifts, has a better chance than a child who is pushed to the limits by his parents.
To make one's child the instrument for realizing their own unrealized dreams are the worst kind among parents.
bhArati guides the child and encourages him in being an ideal child in the song ODi viLaiyADu pAppA: nI oru kuzhandaiyai vaiyyAdE pAppA! (don't you go about chiding another child, my little one! Do play in harmony).This wisdom imparted to children is also meant for those parents who are not fully evolved as adults when it comes to wisdom in child rearing...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Oct 2008, 09:34

Well done Arasi:
You have succinctly captured the spirit of the post. Genius is born and not created.
There is nothing wrong in exposing a child to a musical environment. If there is a natural talent it will automatically manifest and all attempts should be made by the parents to foster the talent. The motivation ought not be on winning a competition to show off to one's frienda and relatives.
Lord Sri Krishna has beautifully commanded
karmaNyEvAdhikArastE mA phalEShu kadAcanana
wherein the karma refers in this contexts to providing the exposure and opportunity for the child by the parents without any expectations of winning competitions or contests.

Let a thousand flowers bloom in the CM garden: Not artificially made but on their own accord!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Oct 2008, 13:23

Arasi... words of wisdom, further underlining the difference between the supportive parent and the pushy parent. Even "pushy" is far too gentle a word for the scenario that CML describes.

Narada · Post by **Narada** » 28 Oct 2008, 18:20

The situation CML describes is appalling. Even more chilling is his report that this seems to be regarded as a "success story" by the rest of the Indian community. Fortunately, though, I doubt if the average kid raised in America is so easy to push around. The scenario described will probably work only for new immigrants, with the child raised in India until recently.

Anyway, I wanted to broaden the topic to pushy CM teachers. While they won't go as far as beating the kids, abuse can be verbal and psychological as well. We are having issues with a certain star musician who consented to teach our son on Skype and seems intent on getting him to arangetram in one year (in time for said musician to come to the US with that excuse and tour). We're letting it run along for a little longer, on the theory that at least someone is able to make him pay attention. But we are noticing a distinct drop off in interest in music on our son's part, and may pull the plug shortly.

MKM · Post by **MKM** » 28 Oct 2008, 20:09

Reg: teachers... I have come accross atleast two teachers who after observing the new student for a couple of classes politely suggested that the parents should look into exposing the child to music first by taking him/her to concerts, playing classical music around the house and such before pushing him into classes. Ofcourse the parent was furious and ended up finding a different teacher who was willing to teach the kid.

Now there are two angles to this.

Teacher's point of view: Parents are bringing the child to classes to feel that they are exposing the kid to "classic culture" while they have NO idea what it is all about and don't appear to be getting into it for the sake of the art. Kid doesn't show much natural talent or interest. Not sure whether they will sustain for long. Given that and the fact that life these days is overwhelmingly busy both for kids and adults, why bother wasting everybodies time!! Money is not an issue for me.

Parent's view: Yes.. I didn't have the luxury of being exposed to classical arts as a child. Why should my child not have what I didn't. No teacher can tell whether my kid can be good at it or not... I don't need to take my child around to programs , it is the job of the teacher to get my son interested. How can our culture spread if we don't teach our youngsters?

I am interested to see the reactions of rasikas community

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Oct 2008, 20:24

Perhaps we can attempt an in-depth analysis of the Psyche of parents who
'Push' their kids. First there is no malice in their hearts. Most of them are genuine lovers of CM. Many may sincerely believe that their kids should enjoy CM as much as they do and even be able to perform- an opportunity which was denied them as a child through the conspiracy of the Fate. Many also have the ill-conceived belief that the stamp of approval should come from their peers with an objective proof which is winning a competition. I believe women are more susceptible in this respect in comparison with men. I am sure financial rewards are not even in the horizon. The relative affluence in NA is also a contributory factor. Yet again CM can be seen as an insignia of distinct cultural identity in a 'foreign' environment. If the kid is able to perform to an appreciatve crowd in the home country, especially before the elders it will be lasting proof that they were not corrupted by the 'foreign' culture. Just to digress I may mention performing the upanayanam ceremony with a great pomp back home for their boys which is a meaningless adjunct for kids living in the West (though I agree it is an entirely different can of worms

Whatever we are discussing here, I suspect is applicable mutatis mutandis to bharatanATyam as well though it is entirely a 'ladies phenomena'. While I have no right to comment on the subject, of late what I have seen of the lavish expenses on arangetram which would easily sustain a thousand families back home living in penury for almost a whole year! The irony is most of the kids stop dancing right after the arangetram

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 28 Oct 2008, 20:56

CML, does NOBODY related to Mr X see Mr P's viewpoint?! This child may be in danger!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 28 Oct 2008, 21:04

Brings to mind a story , narrated by Hariprasad Chaurasia at an IIT Chennai Concert in the mid 80s ....
How his Father - a Pahalwan - felt let down when he learnt that his Son was pursuing a soft career like Music .
How he had to practise at a friends place for years , to keep away from the ears of his Dad.All that before his celebrated association with Annapurna Devi.Years ,when he was an obscure Flautist hoping to make it big in the tinsel town ,that is Bombay.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Oct 2008, 21:26

Dear bilahari

Mr X is quite aware of P's view points. However the recent 'success' as well as the spate of support from friends have convinced him that he is right! Since the schools have reopened there is no immediate hazard!

In defence of some of the view points among the immigrants I have to admit the failure of the Western (psychiatric) approach to solving domestic and social problems among other cultures. While pharmaco/surgical therapy (medications and procedures) is resoundingly successful the psychological approach is not attuned to cultural values. In fact 'psychoanalysis' is almost unheard of in India. A relative of mine who is an Internationally recognized Transcultural Psyachiatrist recently confessed to me the failure of the Western approach in solving domestic problems among Indians/Muslims. In fact the moslems trust the solutions through 'shariat/family' laws to the conventional western-approach-based alternatives. Compared to other branches of Medicine Cultural/Anthropologicl/Psychology is still in its infancy.

We could still say
Human Mind is the Last Barrier of Science

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Oct 2008, 21:44

Let me add on my part that I don't fully subscribe to our nIti shastra which states:

rAjavat pa~ncavarShANi dasha varShANi dAsavat |
prAptE tu ShODashE varShE putraM mitravat AcarEt ||
(Treat the child like Royaty till five and then till ten like a slave and like a friend after sixteen)

suma · Post by **suma** » 28 Oct 2008, 22:02

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFL0w1ruiCM

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Oct 2008, 22:48

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Oct 2008, 22:50

Thanks Suma. That is a much needed comic relief in this otherwise depressing thread.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Oct 2008, 23:08

bilahari wrote:CML, does NOBODY related to Mr X see Mr P's viewpoint?! This child may be in danger!

Viewpoints are one thing, there can always be differences there. But physical beating can not be tolerated. CML, that is why I want to know how reliable is your information that the parents beat this child to make her learn CM. It changes the discussion completely in a very depressing direction.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 28 Oct 2008, 23:10

Narada wrote: Fortunately, though, I doubt if the average kid raised in America is so easy to push around.

sometimes it is the other way, parents being pushed around ! : )

I just thought I should make a note here about an instance(quite funny or not so funny) about Indian teachers. While we parents and teachers raised in India have a different way of speaking and commanding, the kids raised here are not used to that scenario.

when my child starting learning mrdangam, a few classes later he said -why does the teacher shout at me! But it was a normal class, a normal tone according to me and I had to convince that- it is the way we speak and it is not shouting. Off course now, one year later he tries to impress the teacher. And hopefully will continue.

As for me pushing, no chance!!,
Bribing none -at the most a candy for practicing

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 28 Oct 2008, 23:25

How about this mother - lighter side
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmdAF4ihedM

carnaticpriya · Post by **carnaticpriya** » 29 Oct 2008, 00:15

I hope Mr X reads this thread and changes his methodology!. My child is about the same age as Mr X's daughter. The day after the pattu classs, she perfects the new song her teacher has taught and she just practices two different varnams and krithis every day to 100 % perfection. .I have always felt that she is well prepared for her next class. We have never pushed our child and the result......My child says," amma, can i sing one more song today"?. She also loves to listen to the audio and wath the video of the artists in the web. It is important to keep the healthy interest in the children alive by not pushing them to the extent of beating a child

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 29 Oct 2008, 00:43

VK
The proof comes from none other than the teacher herself who herself was not in agreement with the approach. She has heard him even justify stating 'aDiyAtha maaDu paNiyAthu' . She however felt that the child was a bit too playful and lacked attention (maybe mildly hyperactive in clinical terms which is not uncommon among regular Indian kids)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 29 Oct 2008, 00:53

Suji

As for me pushing, no chance!!,
Bribing none -at the most a candy for practicing

That is wrong too! It is psychological coercion (a la Skinnerian Operant Conditioning)!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Oct 2008, 00:53

OK, got it CML. It is indeed depressing to hear such stories in this day and age!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 29 Oct 2008, 01:20

cmlover wrote:Suji
As for me pushing, no chance!!,
Bribing none -at the most a candy for practicing
That is wrong too! It is psychological coercion (a la Skinnerian Operant Conditioning)!

Ok true.. besides giving cavities : )

It's true that, that kind of conditioning is bad esp when done on a regular basis or forced upon.

Kids do like small rewards and they do grow out of it. Most important to understand is- is the child enjoying while practicing. If so, a reward won't hurt.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Oct 2008, 01:43

Right on Suji. After a while, you have to offer them rewards to get them out of their practise sessions. "Enough now..Let us go for ice cream"

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 29 Oct 2008, 01:53

vasanthakokilam wrote:Right on Suji. After a while, you have to offer them rewards to get them out of their practise sessions. "Enough now..Let us go for ice cream"

It has already happened for piano lessons though I wish it was for beating the drum too

Just for fun I quote:

Enough! come and have your dinner (for piano)
If you don't practice you'll starve today ! (for mRdangam)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Oct 2008, 02:13

Suji,
This thread 'is too much with us!'. Since I agreed to shut my mouth after my say, no more ruminations on the subject on my part.
However, kidding around with friends is fine: VK, away from the gloom of the subject matter, let's celebrate childhood. I recently met a couple of young people who have gone through tragic events in their lives and yet keep their enthusiasm for life and for other human beings bubbling and buoyant. The reason? Though they lost their dear ones early in life, the nurturing by their loving parents shows--in their words and deeds. Hurray for sensitive parents!
Suji,
If I know it, CML is a 'candy man' too--when it comes to friendly persuasion

suma · Post by **suma** » 29 Oct 2008, 04:18

VK RAMAN wrote:How about this mother - lighter side
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmdAF4ihedM

nice video

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 29 Oct 2008, 06:41

I agree with Arasi that we should end this depressing topic on a cheerful note.
What is better than the verse of Bharahti, the eternal lover of children, but without words but through the magical hands of LGJ
http://sangeethamshare.org/tvg/UPLOADS- ... .11-MB.mp3
(Perhaps Suji accompanied by her child will give her own interpretation or even VK will turn a new phrase in Dayanithi

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 29 Oct 2008, 08:33

Suma, thanks! I love Goodness Gracious Me!

Although I was never pushed as a child, I have witnessed the disastrous consequences of the same all around me growing up in Singapore, where more than 70% of my friends were caned by their parents if they didn't meet their expectations. And they were lofty expectactions! One of my friends' father used to chide my parents for not attending How-to-raise-an-Einstein parental coaching sessions as soon as I was born, and used to cane my friend multiple times every time he failed to get a 100 in any subject, all the way from 1st grade. One stroke for every mark less than a 100. Another parent used to drop off my friend in school and while in school, used to go around the class inquiring about each of our grades in exams (also in 1st grade!), and was rumoured to be keeping a table of everybody's scores on the fridge at home, pitting our marks against her son's. Of course, it didn't help my school used to rank every student from 1st grade onwards... Incidentally, both of these friends got into "gifted education" programs in third grade (by vigorously preparing for and passing a national exam) and both of them fizzed out dramatically by sixth grade. But that is essentially Singapore's (and Asia's?) academic culture.

Singapore argues that such a rigid and competitive environment is necessary to ensure we churn out the best who can compete with the best in the world and maintain our economy. But those who get left behind in the lurch (as early as sixth grade, during the first national exam) have very, very few means of ever getting back on track. As a result of such early childhood pressure, parents feel compelled to ensure their children don't just do THEIR best, but are very simply THE best at everything.

Is this where natural selection is taking us?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 29 Oct 2008, 09:52

That is the traditional Asian psychology (including Indian) which many still cling to. We have yet to see an Einstein coming from that part of the world

I myself will not be surprised if this particular girl child turns out to be the future MLV. But the real tragedy will be that her domestic life will also turn out to be like that of MLV

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Oct 2008, 15:46

Is this where natural selection is taking us?

A very sad form of un-natural selection

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 29 Oct 2008, 16:40

While on this topic of pushy NRI parents, let's not forget those innumerable pushy RI parents too!

In fact, one can argue that several talented artistes were moulded thru the efforts of their parents who made sure they woke up at 4am and did saadhakam for 3-4 hours every day. Does this count as being 'pushy'?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 29 Oct 2008, 18:45

A well-known abbreviation
RI = Rigorous Imprisonment

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Oct 2008, 03:03

r-t, I am sure there are as many guilty RIs in this respect, perhaps it just just not stand out so much on home ground, and I am sure many artists have stories to tell. I remember being told about practice by one man who said that his father/teacher used to threaten him with a knife! I find it hard to conceive of how fear can lead to artistry.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 30 Oct 2008, 03:51

Will CA turn into PA (parental abuse) when those children grow up and they get their freedom from parental control and parental money? I am concerned and will those parents turn to Police protection or put up with PA as did their children put up with them?

sridevi · Post by **sridevi** » 30 Oct 2008, 04:51

To push or not to push... That is the question:

Here is my personal experience.
My mother is a veena artiste, one of those unlucky ones who did not become famous but nevertheless was well trained vainika, performing here and there and teaching. I think when I was born, she (probably) had dreams of me being the next " baby Gayathri " the veena prodigy. However I was more intent on vocal music and or violin ( I have not learnt the violin till date - ) In order to coax me into learning the veena, she tried a lot of tricks and treats, including telling me that my voice was unsuitable for vocal music. The battles were fought , incessantly. My father was as neutral as he could be. ( He was not into music at all.. but supported my mother to a certain extent in her pursuits)
Long story short.. I struck a deal with my mother - I will do the junior exam in veena and then it is up to me to decide. Exam came and went. Did surprisingly well but did not make much out of it. After that I tried to pursue vocal music. But then when I wanted to hone my skills as a vocalist I was always in a place without a proper guru. And this saga continues till date ( well sort of ).
My mother has heard me sing now, and is pleasantly surprised that my voice is not as bad she thought it would be and of course commends me for pursuing music amidst the other things that make up life.
Now the question is
Would I be singing , seeking refuge in Music if she had not pushed me the amount that she did?
The reason I ask is because, I have a brother. While she tried teaching him the veena , it did not work and she gave up on him (wrt learning music ) way sooner. Today, my brother has a ear for music in general but is not a fan of CM or any classical art form. He cannot sit through a concert in it's entirety. Does he regret not having learnt music, I dont think so. I dont know for sure either. Do I regret not going for music as seriously as I do now, much earlier - Yes.. sort of. But I am glad that my mother pushed me till she thought I would snap and then let go. Later on, I came to music on my own. I am not sure what would have happened if she had continued to push me ( would I have snapped and lost it ?)
or if she had stopped way earlier, I probably would not have had the urge to dwelve deep into CM.

Ultimately, I think as parents we should sort of have an idea as to when to draw the line with our child. When to hold back and when to gently push or coax. But as CML and other elders on this forum have opined, it is never ever right to abuse a child, physically or emotionally to the extent that Mr/Mrs X have done with their child.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Oct 2008, 05:16

ragam-talam wrote:While on this topic of pushy NRI parents, let's not forget those innumerable pushy RI parents too!

In fact, one can argue that several talented artistes were moulded thru the efforts of their parents who made sure they woke up at 4am and did saadhakam for 3-4 hours every day. Does this count as being 'pushy'?

Caning and Beating - Criminal acts in this day and age. That is child abuse
Emotional blackmail - 100% Condemnable as a parenting technique
Excessive promotion of the child - Pushy. Hold the nose and turn away. It is their prerogative.
Waking up at 4 A.M for 3-4 hour sadhakam - Parent's decision. We do not have any basis to pass judgement on their parenting methods. Nor do psychologists of any stripe

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 30 Oct 2008, 06:16

Caning..Brings to mind another story.Pandit Kishren Maharaj was asked , in one of the Doordarshan interviews about his formal education.
And his Reply ?
When I was in primary school , one day my teacher rapped me on my knuckles for some error..That day My Dad deiced Formal education was not worth the risk .Since then , all my life , I have taken extreme care of my fingers and here I am , answering your questions.

n a totally different setting , Ken Rosewall's Dad has gone on record saying how the 6 year old Ken would arrange his Dads Shoes and Sporting gear even , the previous night so that the Dad would not have an excuse the next day , for the 4 AM training session.The sight of the tiny tot at his bedroom door in the morning would force him to make that extra effort to help his son out.

At the end of the day it all boils down to one thing I guess,
A Magnificent Obsession.
It has its own Pains and its own rewards.

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 30 Oct 2008, 07:16

very lovely,educative examples . almost all our very senior vidwans of cm and hm used to start saathakam and riaz from very earlymornings, including gurukulavaasam .gobilalitha

fuddyduddy · Post by **fuddyduddy** » 30 Oct 2008, 07:59

is there anything like pushy kids? my kids, aged 8 and 5, want me to perform on stage and make me practice at all odd times... they attend all the local concerts and after every concert pressurize me so much by saying that they want me to be singing like that!! i dunno which is better - pushy kids or pushy parents

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 30 Oct 2008, 08:22

fuddyduddy,
I look at the smiley in your post and know how heart-warming that kind of 'pushing' can be. Great that they attend concerts. They think you can do anything