A few general questions on the violin

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 18 Jun 2008, 16:41

1. How much do violin cases cost?

2. How does tightening and loosening the bow affect the sound quality? Does it become louder when loosened or something?

3. Do we "bend" the stick (wooden part of the bow) and expand or contract the hair when we loosen or tighten a bow?!

4. Should we tighten the bow a bit more to apply rosin than for normal playing?

5. Can we get the string tightening/loosening (shruti-macroadjustment) pegs replaced?

appu · Post by **appu** » 18 Jun 2008, 17:35

1. Violin cases can be purchased as single or double violin cases. The cost can range from about $80 to $400 depending on the interior construction. Violins have to be maintained at a certain temperature and humidity to avoid the wood from separating. Good cases have a temperature control regulator and also a humidifier. These type of cases cost a lot more closer to the $400 range.

2. Tightening or loosening the bow hair has marginal affect on sound quality. Tightening or loosening the hair is individual preference. You want to find the spot that is most comfortable. Sound quality is strictly dependent on how you press down on the bow, the position of the bow on the string (flatter the better) and how close to the bridge you can keep the bow. Normal tendency is to let the bow come to the figure board of the violin.

Another thing that I have observed that affects the sound quality is not cleaning the excess rosin from the violin. The acid in the rosin gets to the violin wood after sometime and dampens the sound. Pay close attention to the senior violin vidwans ( not the younger generation) and also western violinists. Their violin always seems to have a clean new look. It is because they clean their violin before and after every performance and practice.

3. The bow is created with a certain bend. If the bend is lost due to overtightening of the hair, it is time to purchase a new bow. A good bow will cost you about $300.00. Normally music shops in the US will let you take home about 6 bows to try out at various price ranges. The bow that gives you maximum performance comfort is the one you retain.

4. Application of rosin should be just right. More rosin will definitely dampen the sound. Rule of thumb is to apply rosin in one clean stroke from the bottom to the top of the bow. Couple of extra gentle strokes at the bottom and the top will help.

5. Unless the pegs are broken their is no need to replace the pegs.

In a different link, I will discuss steps needed to maintain the violin in peak performance condition.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 18 Jun 2008, 17:51

What are the prices in India like? How do these humidifiers work? Do these (and temperature regulators) run on batteries or they need conventional supply (meaning we leave the violin to the environment's mercy during travel)?

I seemed to have overtightened my old bow badly. (It didn't "break" and some bend is still there, but I was asked to get a new one.) I have to buy a new one, when it's not even a few months old! OK, at least I've now learnt!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 19 Jun 2008, 01:26

Fascinating; I love to hear these practical details about instruments

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 19 Jun 2008, 15:35

hi srikanth ,

you can get a much cheaper one in india. if you are just a starter or in your beginning stage you need not buy a costly bow. you could buy for something like 400 rs. and dont you bother for humidifiers and all if you are having a basic violin. you could buy a good box in india for 1000 rs .

westeners buy violins for as much as 3 or 4 lakhs and that is when they look out for sophisticated cases . I have never seen even professional in india carrying such cases . hope it helps.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 19 Jun 2008, 19:00

Dear brother-member, srikanth1987,
1.Depending upon the size of your Violin you have to choose the Violin-case and it may cost above Rs.300/- in India.

2.Loosening or tightening the bow should be made basing upon the gauge of the strings used for different kinds of Shrutis between C & B, the space in-between the strings and the finger-board and the shape of the bow in which the space in-between the wood of the bow and the bow-hair co-ordinates.

3.The expansion or contraction of the wood and hair of the bow only influences the out coming music of the Violin.

4.Even though many of the Violinists do not know, there is a particular way of tightening the bow and applying rosin to the bow-hair by which the rosin could be applied evenly to each and every inch of the bow-hair.

5.Any professional Violinist-cum-repairer can easily guide you in the respect.

Imp.note: The price of any Violin or bow should be adjudged by its quality only but not by its brand-name. amsharma.

bala747 · Post by **bala747** » 21 Jun 2008, 23:10

As a "proud" owner of 10 violins, all of varying quality (from ones that probably are better used as matchwood to somewhat concert grade violins) I can add this word of advice on 2.

At a store, tune the violin to the Indian way (E, B corresponding to Sruthi 3) and play a few notes. Try a few bows with this sruthi, rather than the Western tuning of GDAE. What sounds good with the more tightly tuned Western violin would sound different when the pressure on the strings is more relaxed.

As for violins in India they are really hit and miss. I have a very good violin that cost me Rs. 1700 in India and an absolutely horrendous one that cost twice as much from there as well. I personally feel you really are better off buying a Chinese made violin, and nowadays China is starting to produce really good violins while Indian violins are really unpredictable in terms of quality (although to be fair I have heard some matchwood violins from China too but generally speaking they are better). Always play the violins with the strings tuned to Indian sruthis before buying. A good violin need not be the most expensive but the moment you play a note on it you will know it's the right one. It has this inexplicable tone to it that you immediately like.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Jun 2008, 01:30

Bala747,
Good to see your post (with helpful suggestions).

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 25 Jun 2008, 06:56

Thanks to all of you for answering all my questions in such detail.

Now I have one more question: how often should I apply rosin? Every time I pick up the bow from the case and tighten it? Or is it that after playing for so long (say 2 hours) I will have to put it again? (But in concerts I have not seen violinists re-apply rosin ... of course, it must depend on how much they applied in the beginning of the concert.)

As such, I play and if it sounds like rosin is not enough (I can tell

) I apply more of it.

greatkrishna · Post by **greatkrishna** » 25 Jun 2008, 07:19

From what I have seen, violinists use the rosin to clean their bow...violinists do this before the concert commences say for example just before they tune their instrument.

appu · Post by **appu** » 25 Jun 2008, 07:41

Rosin is not used to clean the bow. You must apply the rosin in one stroke before practice or as and when necessary when your bow has no rosin. A bow without rosin will skip producing the sound when played on the strings. Excess rosin is also a problem. So use it sparingly.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 25 Jun 2008, 10:20

Yes, too much rosin can make bowing very rough. Usually I apply two or three strokes of rosin (with perhaps a couple of extra strokes at either end) before a one to two hour practice session.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 04 Aug 2008, 15:03

My bridge broke off â€” a small piece came off it. The violin isn't sounding the same since.

Will a new bridge make it sound as good as before? How much do these bridges cost? All violins use similar bridges, or should I get it made specifically for my violin?

appu · Post by **appu** » 04 Aug 2008, 17:25

Yes you need a new bridge. Take your violin to a violin maker/repairer or shop and have them put a new bridge. They may have to make some adjustments like sand the base of the bridge if the bridge is too tall or find a bridge that is tall enough. You have to play on it in the store till you get the best sounf. Furthermore inside the violin through the "S" hole you will see a 2 inch lollipop stick called the sound post. Once the bridge is replaced the sound post has to be adjusted to get optimal sound. A good repairer should be able to do this in about 30 mins. Lastly now would also be a good time to replace all your strings and have the violin cleaned well so that any excess rosin deposits on the violin can be cleaned.

Hope this helps.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 04 Aug 2008, 17:44

Dear brother-member, srikant1987, In such case you have to change the bridge. In this respect I want to say my personal experience. In 70s I have purchased a very good Violin, Italian Miggini. Unlike many other Violinists as I already had an idea of a real tone since then I have started changing the bridges very frequently to get the real tone of it. But, believe it or not, I got it only after 12 years. Of, course, after that I did not play any other Violin at all in my concerts.
As the old bridge is broken you are compelled to change the bridge. Getting it fixed is another headache. But, fortunately enough, if you have an idea of the real tone, you must go on changing the bridges until you get the real tone. If not, you can very easily get satisfied with any bridge. Violin-bridges are not made specifically and you have to choose from the available ones. There are umpteen varieties of bridges and now-a-days a good bridge may cost above Rs.500/. amsharma.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 05 Aug 2008, 06:47

appu wrote:You have to play on it in the store till you get the best sounf. Furthermore inside the violin through the "S" hole you will see a 2 inch lollipop stick called the sound post. Once the bridge is replaced the sound post has to be adjusted to get optimal sound.

msakella wrote:you must go on changing the bridges until you get the real tone.

I didn't understand. Should I have the bridge changed first, the sound post adjusted a bit, and play. Then the soundpost adjusted a bit more, and play again? Till I get a satisfactory sound? And every adjustment will take 30 min or so?

And Akellaji, you say I should change bridges many times. Can't I try two or three bridges this time itself? And if I decide later to change the bridge for a better tone, will they give a new bridge in exchange for an unbroken bridge at a smaller "exchange price", or is it as good as changing because you've broken a bridge?

appu · Post by **appu** » 05 Aug 2008, 07:24

srikant1987 wrote:I didn't understand. Should I have the bridge changed first, the sound post adjusted a bit, and play. Then the soundpost adjusted a bit more, and play again? Till I get a satisfactory sound? And every adjustment will take 30 min or so?

That is the correct order. You got it. Generally about 20 to 30 minutes till you get satisfactory sound. Sometimes you may get it in your first take, sometimes much longer.

A good violin repairer will do the job well the first time around.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 05 Aug 2008, 07:48

Dear brother-member, srikant1987, At the first instance you have to file the feet of the bridge to make it sit properly, then you have to file the upper side of the bridge so as to adjust it to the required height which enables you to play with your fingers with the required tension and then, lastly, you have to adjust the sound-post properly inside the Violin until you get the required quality of sound. If you wonâ€™t get the required sound you have to run for another bridge like going on changing the hotels every time until you find the best meal of your taste. How many hotels you have to change depends upon how soon you get a good meal of your taste only. Isnâ€™t it? The same applies in respect of bridges also. Every adjustment may take days or months or years until you get the true tone. No shop-owner wishes to exchange your already filed bridge with a new bridge at all. You have to change as many bridges as your pocket bears. amsharma.

martin · Post by **martin** » 06 Aug 2008, 03:13

msakella wrote:>>> I have purchased a very good Violin, Italian Miggini. <<<<

Ah! Does it have double purfling? That would be MAggini, da Brescia!

About violin bridges, I played a bit of violin in my twens and learned a thing or two about violin repair etc. and how to set a new bridge. The problem is not so much the price of the bridge, which can be bought at no great expense, with overlong feet and top, but finding the right man for the job and paying him for it. I do not understand previously made remarks about trying out various bridges until you find the one that works - and if I do, I don't want to know, i suppose!
For any violin, given certain strings and tunings, a certain bridge height etc. is optimal. Furthermore the feet are cut to an exact fit to the proper place on the bellytop of that one particular individual violin. Unless you recut the bridge to fit another violin, that bridge belongs with that violin and with no other. But then, having seen some Indian-played violins, maybe you go about it like sort through boxes looking for something close... Same with sitar or tanpura, you can not just simply 'compare' or exchange bridges, they have to be dressed to fit in each and every individual case.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 16 Aug 2008, 20:05

Now a little mundane question ... some people keep a cotton piece soaked in oil and dip their fingers in it and rub on the strings to make them smooth and facilitate gamaka playing. I think it's routinely coconut oil?

Has anyone tried anything else?

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 17 Aug 2008, 06:44

I was told to use Vaseline. Works fine for me!

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 17 Aug 2008, 20:13

Dear brother-member, srikant1987, To play efficiently on the Violin strings some people use some kind of oil. That oil may be either coconut oil or any other oil which helps smooth movement of the fingers on the finger-board. Some people use gut strings also and to make the move their fingers easily and smoothly they mix little talcum powder also along with oil and use. Some very slight cross lines are visible on the tips of their fingers of some people and they cannot play without applying some oil or other to their fingers. So, they are compelled to use some oil or other or vaseline to their fingers. Some people having no visible cross lines need not use any oil at all. amsharma.

manjunath · Post by **manjunath** » 19 Aug 2008, 12:38

Akella ji ! Namaskar !

Recently, I visited Hyderabad. When I was there in Chiran fort club I saw one boy around 14 to 15 years age performing there. When enquired, his name was Rahul and he is the Disciple of Akella . The secretary govt of Tamilnadu and Cricketer Mr.Laxman and family were also present on the day. I hope Some National Bank has organized this program. Infact I enetered the venue when he was playing vatapi, have enjoyed his Vatapi,Bantureeti,Nidhichala sukama and his lalgudi thillana's were superb selection. I missed some items.
It was a really tremendous performance at small age and I heard about this boy in Chennai last year. His accompenens on Mridingam, ghatam and Khanjira were also felt like a good team memebers .Please let me know if you are your disciple's performing at Bangalore or Chennai.

Regards
Manjunath

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 19 Aug 2008, 20:14

Dear brother-member, manjunath, Pranams. Yes. Vinay Rahul is my disciple. He is very talented and if practices well regularly in a disciplined manner he can come up.
No, I was not there when he was performing at Bangalore or Chennai. I am glad that you have listened to his performance and enjoyed well.

Regards,
amsharma.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 19 Aug 2008, 21:28

^^^

How guru-ly!

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 20 Aug 2008, 01:48

I repeat my question placed else where under "general discussions"....are any of you aware of good violin teachers who teach on the internet ? I am making this enquiry on behalf of a family, in the process of moving to Brisbane where, according to my friend Mohan, there are no violin teachers....If you know of some one, please advise....I would be grateful for the info....regards

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 21 Aug 2008, 09:29

Dear brother-member, martin, Yes my dear, my Italian Miggini also has double lining along with â€˜cat-feetâ€™ marks on the back and sides too.
As far as violin-bridges are concerned, as per my experience, each and every bridge will not suit each and every Violin in bringing out the required tone of it. More over, proper matching of the bridge along with the sound-post beneath it is also needed for this purpose. amsharma.

yadugiri_nivasa · Post by **yadugiri_nivasa** » 21 Aug 2008, 11:47

A post above mentions that Vaseline can be used as a finger lubricant. Will using Vaseline harm the quality of the sound, the wood or the strings in any way?

Also, in the US, I have seen a product called Fingerease for guitar strings. Most websites say it can be used for the violin also. Has anybody tried it? http://cgi.ebay.com/Tone-Finger-Ease-Gu ... 81280r9657

manjunath · Post by **manjunath** » 22 Aug 2008, 12:14

Namaskar Akella ji !

Great ! Like guru like Shishya. My friends also felt , Rahul is a talented boy and such people only fit in to classical music . I do not know exactly what he has observed from him. He says his fingering is excellent . Is fingering matters in performance?

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 23 Aug 2008, 00:47

Dear brother-member, manjunath, Along with many other things fingering also matter very much in performance. Only through a disciplined fingering and with much acquaintance of it our music comes out in the performance. amsharma.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 23 Aug 2008, 08:54

Vinay rahul is a vocalist?

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 23 Aug 2008, 20:11

Dear brother-member, ganesh_mourthy, In general, all the instrumentalists learn music on Vocal first and then on instrument which makes them efficient in ploaying the instrument. amsharma.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 03 Oct 2008, 08:34

OK, now I have another question.

I have tried some other violins, and now I realised that my finger board is at a somewhat lower height and a smaller slope, which is why even with my apparently somewhat short bridge, strings are much above the finger board. So the strings need to pressed quite hard.

Because I need to press hard, the "working string" comes down lower, and so (what with a shorter bridge) many times I end up bowing on some other strings also. That too wouldn't normally be a problem, but when the "pressing" carries over to the other strings, we get many odd notes sounded together. Well, I do hear the correct note much louder than any other, but I wish I could play just the right string, or at least prevent my fingers touching other strings when pressing one string.

Also, I get the feeling I need to bow much harder to get the same loudness on my violin, though I like its tone very much. Could it be a consequence of the fingerboard being lower?

I also observed that the fingerboard is lower - unfortunately - because the thing on which fingerboard is rested (the thing made of the violin's own kind of wood apparently) is also lower where it intersects the violin.

-

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 04 Oct 2008, 15:14

Isn't bumping allowed?

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 04 Oct 2008, 17:14

Dear brother-member, srikant1987, In general, irrespective of the place or caste or creed the parents are held very high as they always feel the responsibility in looking after the welfare of their kids. And even among them mother is still higher in this respect as she always remain vigilant of her kid right from the moment of its birth. In our Indianity Guru is held more high even than the parents. But, most unfortunately in our fine arts, the students suffer a lot for the inefficiency and irresponsibility of their teachers. Had your teacher taken each and every care while teaching you wouldnâ€™t have felt all these incovencies you are now facing while playing the instrument. However, at this juncture, it is very easier and convenient to explain all the things in detail in person than writing them here running for pages. amsharma

Sundar Krishnan · Post by **Sundar Krishnan** » 06 Oct 2008, 20:01

â€œsrikant1987â€

Sundar Krishnan · Post by **Sundar Krishnan** » 06 Oct 2008, 21:15

I would like to know some aspects of the Violin instrument, and itâ€™s tuning procedure, octave ranges etc.

A) I wish to understand the foll info given in one of the links I suggested in my previous msg : http://www.dalemfg.com/acousticaladjustment_026.htm. It states so :
â€œThe ideal frequency is 322 Hz. (Other frequencies that resonate with carbon ?? are 300, 285, and 262 Hz.) This is the (final finished product) frequency that we eventually want the Top Plate to be at, when mature.â€

Sundar Krishnan · Post by **Sundar Krishnan** » 07 Oct 2008, 23:59

Under Pt : C) of my previous message no #38, I would request you to consider the foll as appended :

In C) Contd ...

Has it got anything to do with a possibly different â€œideal freqâ€

Sundar Krishnan · Post by **Sundar Krishnan** » 14 Oct 2008, 19:36

14th Oct, 2008

Since the main topic of this thread is a general one on Violin, can we discuss on Sympathetic Resonance in Violins ?

To start with, let us for now, discuss wrt the foll 3 types of violins only, all full-size violins :

a) Standard ie, Traditional, 5-String Non-Electric Accoustic

b) 5-String Electric, with good quality Piezo-electric Transducers, but with NO Resonating Chamber - eg, most violins from Jordan Music co

c) 5-String Electric, with good quality Piezo-electric Transducers, but ALSO with Resonating Chamber

**********

I think, we can understand the discussion better if we also state the tuning that we have in mind for the 5 strings, for that particular discussion in that posted message.

I am not an expert, but here are some tuning possibilities : (pl correct them if I am wrong.) :

T1) :
(String 0 : Mandra-pa2 = G2 = 98 Hz) - (String 1 : sa3 = C3 = 130.8 Hz) - (String 2 : pa3 = G3 = 196 Hz) - (String 3 : sa4 = C4 = 261.6 Hz) - (String 4 : pa4 = G4 = 392 Hz)

T2) :
C3 = 130.8 Hz, G3 = 196 Hz, C4 = 261.6 Hz, G4 = 392 Hz, C5 = 523.2 Hz

T3) :
G3 = 196 Hz, C4 = 261.6 Hz, G4 = 392 Hz, C5 = 523.2 Hz, G5 = 784 Hz

T4) :
E3 = 164.8 Hz, B3 = 246.9 Hz, E4 = 329.6 Hz, B4 = 493.9 Hz, E5 = 659.3 Hz

T5) : European - CGDAE ? :
C3 = 130.8 Hz, G3 = 196.0 Hz, D4 = 293.7 Hz, A4 = 440 Hz, E5 = 659.3 Hz

Experts could add more tuning possibilities like T4, T5, ... and correct any mistakes in the 5 Tables that I have suggested above.

In effect, I have myself partly answered the query (B) of my Msg No 38, dt 38 2008-10-06 20:45.

If ALL the 5 Tuning schemes are correct, I would like to know (or atleast guess) the tuning scheme(s) adopted repsectively by LJR, MC, MSG and by L Subramaniam on the Electric Violin.

**********

Q1 : What is the "Std Pitch Length"

Sundar Krishnan · Post by **Sundar Krishnan** » 26 Oct 2008, 18:46

26th Oct, 2008

Wondering why no one has answered.

I am sure we must be using all these techniques - Barriolages, Arpeggios and Vibratos - and many more techniques while playing Carnatic Music in Violin.

Let me make a wild guess (I could be wrong, I am only learning), and hope there will be more fruitful discussions :

Could Gamakas and Kampitas be the equivalent CM names for Vibrato ?

"msakella"

martin · Post by **martin** » 28 Oct 2008, 02:32

Seeking a resemblance between gamakas/kampitas in ICM and vibrato in WCM is a bit farfetched...
especially as 'vibrato' in general is a murky subject. As regards baroque music (1600-1750) and Historically Informed Performance, I can see a clear resemblance however between 'andolan' and vibrato. Andolan as far as I know is slow and deliberate oscillation between a main pitch and a very close variant pitch. In baroque singing, string- and windplaying, vibrato is applied sparingly and deliberately as an expressive embellishment, on certain notes in certain places. Not as in romantic or post-romantic playing styles where vibrato is seen as a constant enlivening of almost every tone, in some cases to such excesses that every tone is subject to a nervous fluttering or howling and pitch becomes uncertain. As a deliberate expressive embellishment, as baroque vibrato or andolan, it is mostly done on longer notes, and both the width of the pitch-variation as the movement as the dynamic element have to be mastered for it to have optimum musical effect. Again within the confines of the baroque styles, not so much one, uniform kind of vibrato is called for, but rather a family of possibilities, such as on a long note, with an initially slow but gradually intensifying oscillation, building up tension before it is relieved by what follows. Shorter notes can be played more 'biting' , quicker and more vehement but still well within limits of intonation etc. It depends on the context and the mood one tries to bring out. Generally, in some traditions vibrato and andolan are used specificly and intended, in others it seems to be an acquired taste as to tone-production and as such is in a different ball-park.

Sundar Krishnan · Post by **Sundar Krishnan** » 28 Oct 2008, 08:59

27th Oct, 2008

Martin (and other members),

Thanks for yr reply on different forms of vibrato in WM.

Indeed the Vibrato Demo link in Cello : http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/thesounde ... o/vibrato/
that I posted in my earlier msg describes vibrato as :
"... Vibrato can be fast or slow, wide or narrow."

***************

You may observe that you have used the word : "oscillation" variously as "deliberate oscillation ...", "intensifying oscillation ..." etc while describing vibrato / andolan.

So, too, similarly, do we find the use of the words : "oscillations and shakes" in CM discussions often - for eg, in :
http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/22_srutis.htm :

... If Indian music were to be based on straight notes, without any modification of the notes by means of oscillations and shakes (kampita & gamaka), or by means of varying the stress on the note (spurita or pratyahata) etc, then the question of choosing one of the two values for a semitone is a tough problem ...

[See PS below.]

Similarly, "msakella" has described nicely the different types of Gamakas and Kampitas in the link I gave in my earlier msg :
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=633/grahasruthi-bedam/page/8/ - (Msg No 191) :

... While the oscillation of a note in relation with its adjacent (either upper or lower) note is Kampita, the note which starts oscillating from its second upper note up to the original note only is Lalitha-gamaka and the note which swings between the second upper note and the immediate lower note of a particular note is Sampradaya-gamaka ... .

If you haven't yet read these two discussions / links, I request you to read the relevent parts, and then, perhaps, you could throw some more light on Vibrato vs "Gamakas and Kampitas" in CM.

Rgds

**************

PS : I would also like to understand the terms :
- spurita or pratyahata ??
- prayogas ??

Thanks in advance.

...

raguanu · Post by **raguanu** » 28 Oct 2008, 14:15

Sorry Sundar, I don't have any video for you now. Perhaps you could watch some Ganesh-Kumaresh concert videos, they employ a wide variety of techniques like Spiccato etc. in their playing.

Speaking of Gamakams, Ornamentation in South Indian Music and the Violin (pdf) by Gordon N. Swift is a detailed study from a western point of view. I like the classification of gamakams in three wide categories; Slides (Jarus), Deflections (nokku, kampitam etc), Fingered Stresses (Ravai, Sphuritam etc).

From the same paper
Sphurita - Stress from below on repeated tones
Pratyahata - Stress from above on repeated tones.
(Both are classified as fingered stresses)

Prayogam means application/usage (correct me if i'm wrong). Prayogas generally referred to musical phrases. For instance, In Raga abcd, "Ga ma pa dha" is a rare prayogam ... meaning that this kind of phrases are rarely used.

Sundar Krishnan · Post by **Sundar Krishnan** » 28 Oct 2008, 20:59

Thanks "raguanu" for the article.

I know the literary meaning of "prayog" in Sanskrit / Hindi.
I just wanted to know some real non-trivial examples of the use of "prayogas" in CM.

Is the word "prayogas" used in CM only to mean "rarely used swara pattern" ?
...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Oct 2008, 23:40

Is the word "prayogas" used in CM only to mean "rarely used swara pattern" ?

No, just "usage" as raguanu points out, at least in the non-technical sense it is commonly used.

raguanu · Post by **raguanu** » 29 Oct 2008, 18:22

Sundar Krishnan wrote: I just wanted to know some real non-trivial examples of the use of "prayogas" in CM.
Is the word "prayogas" used in CM only to mean "rarely used swara pattern" ?

Proyaga (Usage) is often used to refer to Musical phrases (or Swara Patterns), often to point out a particular special technic/element/nuance that exist in the musical phrase.

Here's an example (Translated from Sangeetha Saram, Tamil, Vol 3, p 130)

Atana
...... In Arohanam Gandharam and Dhaivatam are Varjam ... (snip)
The annya-swaram Sadharana Gandharam is employed in sancharams like ggrs, mpgampa. Another annya swaram - Kaisiki Nishadham comes in Prayogas like pddnnS, pdnp.

And here's some more from the same book

on Pandhuvarali

pdma, dSndpma - these two are 'Vishesha Prayogas'.

Sancharams like 'nndnSaSS',' nSGRGMGR', 'Sandpmgm', 'pdpmggrSa' portray the Raga-Swaroopa clearly.

On Purvi Kalyani

Sdpmgr, SdSa - these are 'Ranchaka Prayogas'. The Prayogam 'pdS' is very rare. In the Prayogam 'gmdmgrsa' Dha sounds a little low in pitch.

On Shanmuga Priya

'nSRGRS', ndpmpdn, dnSRiSa - there are 'Raga Ranchaka' Prayogas.

I think that pretty much makes it clear. Both Sancharam and Prayogam refer to musical phrases. A Sancharam sounds like 'a musical phrase', where as Prayogam sometimes mean the 'application' of a particular element in the musical phrase (along with the musical phrase, ofcourse).

Sundar Krishnan · Post by **Sundar Krishnan** » 03 Nov 2008, 10:37

Thanks "raguanu" for citing examples.

I will take some time to "digest" all that you have cited.

It is easy to understand the word Vishesha as special.

However, there are 2 new Prayoga terms : "Ranchaka" and "Raga-Ranchaka" - this is because I don't yet know the meaning of "Ranchaka".

Thanks.
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