Prof.B.Balasubramaniyan-Sandhya Srinath(Violin)-Srinath Balasubramaniam (Mrdangam)-Vivek Chellappa(Kanjira)
1.shrI mahAgaNapatiravatu - gauLa - tisra triputa
2.shrI sarasvati namOstutE - Arabhi
3.kamalambA samrakshatu mAm - Anandabhairavi - (R)
4.sarasvatI manOhari - sarasvatI manOhari
5.tyAgarAjAya namastE - bEgaDa - (R,S)
5.brhannAyaki - andhALi
6.mInAkshi mE mudham - gamakakriya (R,N,S)
..
..
Had to leave after item 6
B.Balasubramaniyan @ SSVT Maryland - Dikshitar Aradhana Prog
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arunk
- Posts: 3424
- Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41
vidya/dhanyasi,
I would be very surprised if the act of putting talam of tisra triputa vs. m.chapu for a krithi would make it musically very different for a given rendition. In other words, if an artist has learned it say in t.triputa - he/she should be able render it exactly the same way but putting the tala as m.chapu (and vice versa). In fact, if his/her laya is strong, he/she should be able to render without showing any tala
.
But off late, I am going off in the deep-end where I think this whole act of putting tala is overblown (as in - it has its role, but it could be overblown in interpretation)
As has been argued many times here before, in most krithis there is no unambiguous correlation between the stress points perceived from the visual kriyas of a tala to those in the song. Given that, if the cycle of a line in a song is say a multiple of 8 - one should be able to visually show the tala as any one that has a multiple of 8 (or 4 for that matter) and render the krithi the same way. Although, there, some may involve some extra mental work - but perhaps due to the affinity we develop to the structure of the tala angas themselves (of the tala one learns the krithi in) - more than to that of the structure of the laya in the song.
Another example, *any* catuSra rUpaka tALa song should also be as effectively renderable in rUpaka cApu, and thus tisra Eka. So to presume that one putting the tala for one of those MD songs as catuSra rUpaka is somehow better or "truer"- that I would argue as overblown, and somehow accentuate the role of tala beyond what is practically necessary.
Arun
I would be very surprised if the act of putting talam of tisra triputa vs. m.chapu for a krithi would make it musically very different for a given rendition. In other words, if an artist has learned it say in t.triputa - he/she should be able render it exactly the same way but putting the tala as m.chapu (and vice versa). In fact, if his/her laya is strong, he/she should be able to render without showing any tala
. But off late, I am going off in the deep-end where I think this whole act of putting tala is overblown (as in - it has its role, but it could be overblown in interpretation)
As has been argued many times here before, in most krithis there is no unambiguous correlation between the stress points perceived from the visual kriyas of a tala to those in the song. Given that, if the cycle of a line in a song is say a multiple of 8 - one should be able to visually show the tala as any one that has a multiple of 8 (or 4 for that matter) and render the krithi the same way. Although, there, some may involve some extra mental work - but perhaps due to the affinity we develop to the structure of the tala angas themselves (of the tala one learns the krithi in) - more than to that of the structure of the laya in the song.
Another example, *any* catuSra rUpaka tALa song should also be as effectively renderable in rUpaka cApu, and thus tisra Eka. So to presume that one putting the tala for one of those MD songs as catuSra rUpaka is somehow better or "truer"- that I would argue as overblown, and somehow accentuate the role of tala beyond what is practically necessary.
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 02 Nov 2008, 21:37, edited 1 time in total.
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vidya
- Posts: 234
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:26
Arun,
As you yourself have reasoned here it is not really the issue of 'putting tala'.
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5099/misra-cha ... ra-triputa
1.Because in this case it gave a different musical feel to it. The tempo and the marga all make difference (the chitratama, atichitra tama stuff)
2.Because the syllable spread and the spread of lyrics are in line with the melodic and stress points in the kRti.
3.Ofcourse the easiest approach would be to actually listen to a rendition of this particular composition say as rendered by Brindamma and compare it to another rendition in mishracApu
and see which one resembles the gait of a Dikshitar composition better and where the music, lyrics and the tempo flows better. I prefer this approach to generalizations.
As you yourself have reasoned here it is not really the issue of 'putting tala'.
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5099/misra-cha ... ra-triputa
1.Because in this case it gave a different musical feel to it. The tempo and the marga all make difference (the chitratama, atichitra tama stuff)
2.Because the syllable spread and the spread of lyrics are in line with the melodic and stress points in the kRti.
3.Ofcourse the easiest approach would be to actually listen to a rendition of this particular composition say as rendered by Brindamma and compare it to another rendition in mishracApu
and see which one resembles the gait of a Dikshitar composition better and where the music, lyrics and the tempo flows better. I prefer this approach to generalizations.
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arunk
- Posts: 3424
- Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41
vidya,
perhaps you missed my point. For a given rendition from a musician's repertoire, I argue that that particular professional musician will be able to it render that krithi, exactly the same way as either as t.triputa or m.capu. In fact he/she should be able to render it in sankIrNa eka, as well as khaNDa rUpaka too
But I will concede that if one always approached it from t.triputa vs. always approached it from m.capu, differences may be there with varying interpretations and some of that would be due to affinities to the different tala - but I wonder if that is any different from 2 patantras interpreting the same krithi *and* in the same tala.
Arun
perhaps you missed my point. For a given rendition from a musician's repertoire, I argue that that particular professional musician will be able to it render that krithi, exactly the same way as either as t.triputa or m.capu. In fact he/she should be able to render it in sankIrNa eka, as well as khaNDa rUpaka too
But I will concede that if one always approached it from t.triputa vs. always approached it from m.capu, differences may be there with varying interpretations and some of that would be due to affinities to the different tala - but I wonder if that is any different from 2 patantras interpreting the same krithi *and* in the same tala.
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 02 Nov 2008, 22:35, edited 1 time in total.
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srikant1987
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23
You mean miSra Eka or sankIrNa Eka?arunk wrote:In fact he/she should be able to render it in sankIrNa eka, as well as khaNDa rUpaka too
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(Because you could have theoretically meant performing kriyas every time 7/9th of a beat in the song is over.
)
Last edited by srikant1987 on 02 Nov 2008, 23:26, edited 1 time in total.
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srikant1987
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23
@ arunk
But singing kalpana svarams or maybe even neravals will probably be harder for something in tiSra tripuTa than for something in miSracApu.
But singing kalpana svarams or maybe even neravals will probably be harder for something in tiSra tripuTa than for something in miSracApu.
Last edited by srikant1987 on 02 Nov 2008, 23:33, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Ah.. my favorite topic: The aesthetic significance of the thala angas and kriyas. It brings back to memory all the wonderful discussions in that thread that Vidya refers to. In that thread, there were no firm conclusions but we were leaning towards the opinion that the built-in laya pattern in a particuar rendition of a composition can be used to more logically assign a thala name to it and hence a particular manner of keeping the thala.
I think Vidya is making the same point. There are two ( or more ) different ways of rendering the same krithi and the laya structure of the Brindamma way of rendering matches Tisra Triputa and it matches the rhythmic feel of other MD compositions in TT. I am just stating my interpretation of what Vidya stated, correct me if I am wrong. I have not listened to enough versions to know such patanthara differences.
TT Vs MC discussion provides scope for some distinction but beyond that, I am also leaning more towards what Arun stated. Outside of compositions musicians as well as mridangists do not seem to treat the angas with much significance in niravals, kalpanaswarams and thani. The compositions with the same thala designations have a wonderful variety of laya patterns that are not easy to map to strictly anga patterns.
The angas seem to be an attempt at abstraction: capturing some commonality by leaving out details. This is one of those necessary uncertainties in any standardization that can not be fully eliminated: the opposing factors of compactness vs precision.
I think Vidya is making the same point. There are two ( or more ) different ways of rendering the same krithi and the laya structure of the Brindamma way of rendering matches Tisra Triputa and it matches the rhythmic feel of other MD compositions in TT. I am just stating my interpretation of what Vidya stated, correct me if I am wrong. I have not listened to enough versions to know such patanthara differences.
TT Vs MC discussion provides scope for some distinction but beyond that, I am also leaning more towards what Arun stated. Outside of compositions musicians as well as mridangists do not seem to treat the angas with much significance in niravals, kalpanaswarams and thani. The compositions with the same thala designations have a wonderful variety of laya patterns that are not easy to map to strictly anga patterns.
The angas seem to be an attempt at abstraction: capturing some commonality by leaving out details. This is one of those necessary uncertainties in any standardization that can not be fully eliminated: the opposing factors of compactness vs precision.