Structuring a Korvai in the thani
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Thanks, Vasanthakokilam!vasanthakokilam wrote:Let me save some trouble for our Mridangam teacher...Here you go Thenpaanan
http://www.sendspace.com/file/g2oynm
-Thenpaanan
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Do you mean the pattern of the entire korvai?
--- well, it must be the same korvai, of course, but there are complex ways, eg different nadais, in which it can be changed
Do you mean the Tha Dhi Ghi Na Thom repeated pattern at the end of korvais?
--- it can be changed in ways that 'make sense', like having 7 beats, then 6 beats then 5, instead of 6 each time, or it can be the same calculation, but played with faster fingering and more ornamentation. The artists will follow; some of us audience members may get lost!
Changes according to calculation will be regular; from the first and second, the third will be predictable.
My teacher says: one should never play anything in the thani which the main artist cannot understand and keep talam to. Doing so tends to result in them not asking you to play for them again!
--- well, it must be the same korvai, of course, but there are complex ways, eg different nadais, in which it can be changed
Do you mean the Tha Dhi Ghi Na Thom repeated pattern at the end of korvais?
--- it can be changed in ways that 'make sense', like having 7 beats, then 6 beats then 5, instead of 6 each time, or it can be the same calculation, but played with faster fingering and more ornamentation. The artists will follow; some of us audience members may get lost!
Changes according to calculation will be regular; from the first and second, the third will be predictable.
My teacher says: one should never play anything in the thani which the main artist cannot understand and keep talam to. Doing so tends to result in them not asking you to play for them again!
Last edited by Guest on 05 Nov 2008, 15:16, edited 1 time in total.
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I'd like to second Kadalkkara's request. This is a fascinating "Thaniavarthanam 101 " thread, but without the audio samples, it is very hard to follow. Can the original poster Mridangam or anyone who happened to download these at that time and still has them please upload them somewhere again (Ideally, to a more permanent place like sangeethamshare.org. Alternatively, I would be delighted to provide space on shrutilaya.org, our NY Music Sabha, a non profit and non commercial organization).
Thanks
Sreenadh Jonnavithula
Thanks
Sreenadh Jonnavithula
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Here are two sets of files which should cover most if not all the mp3 files uploaded by Sri. Balaji.
With respect to uploading them to a more permanent place, I will let Balaji decide.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/l4gtzo ( Korvai )
http://www.sendspace.com/file/wd4ore ( korvai with Konnakkol )
With respect to uploading them to a more permanent place, I will let Balaji decide.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/l4gtzo ( Korvai )
http://www.sendspace.com/file/wd4ore ( korvai with Konnakkol )
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Are there "tha dhi gi Na thom" patterns and "tha ka tha ki ta" patterns in swarams too? I mean, something like a "ga ri sa ni da" will be a "tha dhi gi Na thom" but a "pa ma ri ga ri" will be a "tha ka tha ki ta"? Is that why people construct their korvais with the same "ga ri sa ni da" every time?nick H wrote:For students and onlookers (I think I'm an onlooker these days) it is important that the difference between Tha Dhi Ghi Na Thom and Tha Ka Tha Ki ta be, literally, spelt out. One is an appropriate korvai pattern, the other is not.
I guess to make out what kind of mridhangam pattern will correspond to a certain swara phrase, you should see what a mridhangam accompaniment plays as the phrase is sung. Is that correct?
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As far as I can tell (subject to my experience, that is). the korvais used by vocalists and instrumentalists follow exactly the same principles as those used by percussionists, although they are often short and simple, unless the performer is particularly into laya calculations.
I have heard, on a recording, BMK, taking the finishing lines of the previous swaras and combining them into the korvais at the end of the last swara. Masterful and beautiful! Maybe others do this too and I failed to notice. In fact I think I listened to that recording several times before realising.
I have heard, on a recording, BMK, taking the finishing lines of the previous swaras and combining them into the korvais at the end of the last swara. Masterful and beautiful! Maybe others do this too and I failed to notice. In fact I think I listened to that recording several times before realising.
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I have just brought the book 'Korvais made easy' I don't understand some of the terminology so to understand the tablesand math is a little difficult. I have learnt some konnokol and know quite a few korvais already. Is there someone who could write out a simple korvai and then relate it to the numbers in the book for example page 68 below or any other korvai Thankyou Glenn rogers from Perth Australia
TH BS SS AS PL
8 132 192 60 2
TH BS SS AS PL
8 132 192 60 2
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I think the word "easy" is for the person who is already a mridangam vidwan!
--- Rather like a set of log tables (in the days before calculators) was a simple and invaluable tool to the mathematician, but meant almost nothing to me.
I can see that it is quite wonderful --- giving the number of counts for krovais, even of different nadai combinations with the korvai, for different samum in any tala. Understanding how to use the tables would be only a start; composing the korvai itself is the next hurdle.
Hmmm.... I think I'll give my copy to my guruji!
--- Rather like a set of log tables (in the days before calculators) was a simple and invaluable tool to the mathematician, but meant almost nothing to me.
I can see that it is quite wonderful --- giving the number of counts for krovais, even of different nadai combinations with the korvai, for different samum in any tala. Understanding how to use the tables would be only a start; composing the korvai itself is the next hurdle.
Hmmm.... I think I'll give my copy to my guruji!
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Hello, I know this question is maybe off the topic, but I am hoping someone can help. I have been studying the North Indian pakhawaj for over 10 years, and about a year ago I became very interested in kanjira. Are there any recordings of the great kanjira players from years past available? Either solo or accompaniment?
Thank you.
Thank you.
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
The recent thread on the iOS based mridangam instrument by member Sridhar Rajagopal led me to revisit this great thread ( http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22000).
As a few people had written in this thread, the audio files uploaded by Sri. Balaji are not accessible anymore. I had uploaded the set a couple of times to this thread from my archive. Now I can not easily locate my own copies.
Can someone who has all the files, please upload them to a more permanent place like dropbox or archive.org and post a link. That will be awesome. This thread is one of our 'all star' threads figuring Mridangist Sri. Mannarkoil J Balaji's educational and explanatory postings on the construction of Korvai and Mohra. His writings are that much more useful and educational with his audio files.
Thanks.
As a few people had written in this thread, the audio files uploaded by Sri. Balaji are not accessible anymore. I had uploaded the set a couple of times to this thread from my archive. Now I can not easily locate my own copies.
Can someone who has all the files, please upload them to a more permanent place like dropbox or archive.org and post a link. That will be awesome. This thread is one of our 'all star' threads figuring Mridangist Sri. Mannarkoil J Balaji's educational and explanatory postings on the construction of Korvai and Mohra. His writings are that much more useful and educational with his audio files.
Thanks.
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
I second with vasanthakokilam. It would be great if someone re-uploads the explanatory files to a more permanent place and post the links back on this thread.
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Recently for practitioners of Percussion instruments and also for vocalists i have made an easy chart with jaati and kaarvai legends for practising.
Please email me at mridhangam@me.com for the chart which would be a word file.
Mannarkoil Balaji
Please email me at mridhangam@me.com for the chart which would be a word file.
Mannarkoil Balaji
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Namaskaram to all. I am a new entrant to this forum. I learned mridangam for three years and have covered the basics of adi, Rupali and Misra chaps talas in the process. Sri Mannarkoil Balaji's posts have been very helpful in my understanding of korvais.
This was the korvai I was taught in adi talam:
Thith tham kitathakatharikitathaka thalanguthom
Thakathom tham kitathakatharikitathaka thalanguthom
Thith tham kitathakatharikitathaka thom
Thakathom tham kitathakatharikitathaka thom
Tha ki ta thom (1 1/2 avarthanam)
Tha thi gi na thom
Tha thi gi na thom
Tha thi gi na thom||thith
Each round of this korvai lasts for two avarthanams. Could someone please explain the classification of this into poorvanga, madhyanga and Uttaranga and the mathematics of the same?
This was the korvai I was taught in adi talam:
Thith tham kitathakatharikitathaka thalanguthom
Thakathom tham kitathakatharikitathaka thalanguthom
Thith tham kitathakatharikitathaka thom
Thakathom tham kitathakatharikitathaka thom
Tha ki ta thom (1 1/2 avarthanam)
Tha thi gi na thom
Tha thi gi na thom
Tha thi gi na thom||thith
Each round of this korvai lasts for two avarthanams. Could someone please explain the classification of this into poorvanga, madhyanga and Uttaranga and the mathematics of the same?
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Sorry, that was a typo. Rupaka not Rupali.
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Sir
The Korvai mentioned by you does not fall under "Lakshana" korvais discussed here. That one comes under the category of "lakshya korvais" and hence it is not possible to split the purvanga and utharanga.
Probably thaki ta thom tha dhi gi na thom, tha dhi gina thom , tha dhi gi na thom could be taken as a utharanga and the preceding portion could be taken as a purvanga.
J Balaji
The Korvai mentioned by you does not fall under "Lakshana" korvais discussed here. That one comes under the category of "lakshya korvais" and hence it is not possible to split the purvanga and utharanga.
Probably thaki ta thom tha dhi gi na thom, tha dhi gina thom , tha dhi gi na thom could be taken as a utharanga and the preceding portion could be taken as a purvanga.
J Balaji
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
The resurrection of this thread prompted me to find the mp3 files that Sri. Balaji provided and uploaded them to Google Drive.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
The file name has the number of the post where that Korvai snippet was transcribed. Unfortunately the post numbers are not displayed. When I have time, I will provide the mapping of files to posts and even better place the link to individual mp3 in the respective posts. Feel free to beat me to it if you have the time, motivation and energy ( I can edit the posts easily if I have the mapping of mp3s to posts )
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
The file name has the number of the post where that Korvai snippet was transcribed. Unfortunately the post numbers are not displayed. When I have time, I will provide the mapping of files to posts and even better place the link to individual mp3 in the respective posts. Feel free to beat me to it if you have the time, motivation and energy ( I can edit the posts easily if I have the mapping of mp3s to posts )
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Thanks sir. But what is the difference between Lakshana korvais and lakshya korvais?
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
if "Tha ki ta thom" starts at 1-1/2 - are the last three "Tha thi gi na thom" in tiSram?Ranganator wrote: ↑01 Jan 2017, 21:17 Tha ki ta thom (1 1/2 avarthanam)
Tha thi gi na thom
Tha thi gi na thom
Tha thi gi na thom||thith
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
'Tha ki ta thom' ends with the laghu of the second avarthanam. 'Tha thi gi na thom' x 3 is basically 16=1+3*5.
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
What about samam to idam korvais especially for idam like 1/4 for rupakam(2 thalli)
Also mishra korvais and korvais in thisram,khandam etc
And korvais with combination of melkalam tharam etc
Ps: i am huge fan of mannarkoil balaji sir and this is my first post in rasikas forum
Also mishra korvais and korvais in thisram,khandam etc
And korvais with combination of melkalam tharam etc
Ps: i am huge fan of mannarkoil balaji sir and this is my first post in rasikas forum
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
There is an idea for this ...if you make a korvai for 70 matras or 17-1/2 aksharas (matras are taken as 4 units per beat and aksharas are taken as one beat count) and render first two times in Khanda gati and then render it in catusram the korvai you make will come from samam to 2/12 place.Rohith wrote: ↑15 Apr 2018, 16:03 What about samam to idam korvais especially for idam like 1/4 for rupakam(2 thalli)
Also mishra korvais and korvais in thisram,khandam etc
And korvais with combination of melkalam tharam etc
Ps: i am huge fan of mannarkoil balaji sir and this is my first post in rasikas forum
Mannarkoil Balaji
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Lakshana Korvais mean that the structure of purvanga and utharanga are mathematically correct and follow a logical order. For example 5(4) 5(4) 5(4) as a definite purvanga and 7(8)7(8)7 as a definite utharanga follows a mathematically correct order and hence could be a lakshana korvai.Ranganator wrote: ↑22 Mar 2017, 13:11 Thanks sir. But what is the difference between Lakshana korvais and lakshya korvais?
Lakshya means aesthetically and artistically brilliant but mathematically not following any order.
8(4)8(4)8(3) as Purvanga 9(1)9(1)9 as utharanga ...if i write this in numbers anyone can identify that there is a mistake but while playing the 3 karvai at the end of Purvanga can hardly be perceived as a mistake in the flow ...
This is a practical definition. do not quote this in any books or citations.
Mannarkoil Balaji
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
I have recently joined this forum.
Being a Mridangam student & artist , this particular thread has initially attracted me to this forum.
Hats off to Sri Balaji for his outstanding service to this community. For me ,it has served like a manual for
my preparation for a long awaited re-entry to performing for concerts , after several years of lay back.
This forum , rasikas.org portal are truly inspiring!!!
Hope , one day I will be able to return something substantially to this community.
Till then I do happily sit back and enjoy the brilliance of masters like Sri Balaji.
Thanks & Regards
Kannan Govindan
Being a Mridangam student & artist , this particular thread has initially attracted me to this forum.
Hats off to Sri Balaji for his outstanding service to this community. For me ,it has served like a manual for
my preparation for a long awaited re-entry to performing for concerts , after several years of lay back.
This forum , rasikas.org portal are truly inspiring!!!
Hope , one day I will be able to return something substantially to this community.
Till then I do happily sit back and enjoy the brilliance of masters like Sri Balaji.
Thanks & Regards
Kannan Govindan
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
But from a meta-physical angle, this is not a violation of Math, as the tinkering is done in silence ( pun intended ). Tinkering is possible only because there is a definite Math in there to begin with. It is to be taken as transcending grammar to attain a lakshya and not deliberately protesting against the grammatical order , as leftists would have it . The former is truly an Indic perspective!mridhangam wrote: ↑10 Aug 2018, 09:43 8(4)8(4)8(3) as Purvanga 9(1)9(1)9 as utharanga ...if i write this in numbers anyone can identify that there is a mistake but while playing the 3 karvai at the end of Purvanga can hardly be perceived as a mistake in the flow ...
The 3 is the all familar "taangu" I gather or if you are shifting to a triSra naDai - "tongu" !
And would you be kind enough to share the pazhani lakshya kORvai , something I have heard , but forgot what it is.
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Another example on those lines where there is a lakshya / lakshana pair would be in a total of 64:
7-4-2, 5-4-2, 3-4-2&1 (this is the taangu)- 5-5,5-5,5-5
where 7-4 is formed as ta,ti,tathom(7) - 4-2 as dhin,ta,thom. The pURvAnga has a reduction as ta,ti,tathom -> ti,tathom -> tathom in the three sections.
13 + 11 + 9 + 1 = 34 and uttarAnga is 30.
The reckoning of the last kArvai as (3) is done to get around the prime divisibility issue arising from 33 & 31 - where 31 does not afford the 30 & 1 division for any correct execution of a pattern thrice. Mathematically correct uttaranga will require a 31 = 27 +4 -> 9(2)9(2)9. But why give up an opportunity for the nearest divisible multiple of 3 - i.e. 30, if it can be handled with an artistic sleight of hand!?
So Math is somewhat very much in play!
7-4-2, 5-4-2, 3-4-2&1 (this is the taangu)- 5-5,5-5,5-5
where 7-4 is formed as ta,ti,tathom(7) - 4-2 as dhin,ta,thom. The pURvAnga has a reduction as ta,ti,tathom -> ti,tathom -> tathom in the three sections.
13 + 11 + 9 + 1 = 34 and uttarAnga is 30.
The reckoning of the last kArvai as (3) is done to get around the prime divisibility issue arising from 33 & 31 - where 31 does not afford the 30 & 1 division for any correct execution of a pattern thrice. Mathematically correct uttaranga will require a 31 = 27 +4 -> 9(2)9(2)9. But why give up an opportunity for the nearest divisible multiple of 3 - i.e. 30, if it can be handled with an artistic sleight of hand!?
So Math is somewhat very much in play!
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
I have some doubts about constructing permutations in a specific Korvai .
The normal way would of course be to repeat it 3 times without any change , but I have heard the technique that involves rendering the korvai differently for each of the 3 rounds . ( I have heard it for longer , more complicated korvais , but not for the simple , short ones -- hence my question )
|| ta dim - ta | ka dim - ta | ki ta dim - | ta din - gi |
| na tom - ta | din - gi na | tom - ta din | - gi na tom ||
|| ta dim - - | ta ka dim - | - ta ki ta | dim - - ta |
|di gi na tom | - ta di gi | na tom - ta | di gi na tom ||
|| ta dim - - | - ta ka dim | - - - ta | ki ta dim - |
| - - - ta - din | - gi na tom ta - | din - gi na tom ta | - din - gi na tom || ( Tishra Gati for the 2nd half cycle - 24 instead of 16 matras )
The 2nd round is actually the original famous korvai , whereas I have tried to do my own permutations for the 1st and 3rd rounds :
In the 1st round I have used 1 kaarvai instead of 2 for the purvanga , between the phrases . While calculating for the uttaranga I came upon the formula 3 x tadin-ginatom with 1 kaarvai in between the phrases ( 18 + 2 = 20 ) . I don´t remember having heard it before in Adi Talam and don´t know if it´s usual or if it sounds strange ...
In the 3rd round I have used 3 kaarvais instead of 2 for the purvanga .
Calculating for the uttaranga I saw that I only had 14 aksharas available , so I decided to go into tishra Gati , because I don´t know a correct way of fitting 3 Tadiginatoms into 14 aksharas in chatushra Gati . ( Manjunath BC and Somashekar Jois sometimes use change of gati in Korvais . They are among the people that have sparked this curiosity in me ) . I don´t know if it´s correct to use the change of gati only for 2nd half of the 3rd round and if doing tadiginatoms starting 2 matras after the 5th akshara is acceptable in Adi Talam .
Thanks in advance .
The normal way would of course be to repeat it 3 times without any change , but I have heard the technique that involves rendering the korvai differently for each of the 3 rounds . ( I have heard it for longer , more complicated korvais , but not for the simple , short ones -- hence my question )
|| ta dim - ta | ka dim - ta | ki ta dim - | ta din - gi |
| na tom - ta | din - gi na | tom - ta din | - gi na tom ||
|| ta dim - - | ta ka dim - | - ta ki ta | dim - - ta |
|di gi na tom | - ta di gi | na tom - ta | di gi na tom ||
|| ta dim - - | - ta ka dim | - - - ta | ki ta dim - |
| - - - ta - din | - gi na tom ta - | din - gi na tom ta | - din - gi na tom || ( Tishra Gati for the 2nd half cycle - 24 instead of 16 matras )
The 2nd round is actually the original famous korvai , whereas I have tried to do my own permutations for the 1st and 3rd rounds :
In the 1st round I have used 1 kaarvai instead of 2 for the purvanga , between the phrases . While calculating for the uttaranga I came upon the formula 3 x tadin-ginatom with 1 kaarvai in between the phrases ( 18 + 2 = 20 ) . I don´t remember having heard it before in Adi Talam and don´t know if it´s usual or if it sounds strange ...
In the 3rd round I have used 3 kaarvais instead of 2 for the purvanga .
Calculating for the uttaranga I saw that I only had 14 aksharas available , so I decided to go into tishra Gati , because I don´t know a correct way of fitting 3 Tadiginatoms into 14 aksharas in chatushra Gati . ( Manjunath BC and Somashekar Jois sometimes use change of gati in Korvais . They are among the people that have sparked this curiosity in me ) . I don´t know if it´s correct to use the change of gati only for 2nd half of the 3rd round and if doing tadiginatoms starting 2 matras after the 5th akshara is acceptable in Adi Talam .
Thanks in advance .
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
If uttaranga is modified as :
takadhimi-tom,,(7)ta-takadhimitom,(7)kiTa-takadhimi(6) - 20
tadhimi-tom,,(6)takadhimitom,(6)ta-takadhimi(5) - 17
dhimi-tom,,(5)tadhimi-tom,(5)takadhimi(4) - 14
And doing it in reverse order may have better effect in this case.
that might pass for a similarity in reduction - preserving the takadhimi in all 3 in some form - giving a 3 to add to pURvAnga everytime.
Otherwise what you suggested - I don't know if it passes for convention, but that is the tongifying in mid air as you have one kARvai preceding a silent trISra conversion. You do have one kriya in the second 7 anchoring on a beat i.e dhin - might help grab the tALAM correctly.
You might just reduce the last kArvai to 3 from 4 and do a tadhiginatom(5) thrice as well!
takadhimi-tom,,(7)ta-takadhimitom,(7)kiTa-takadhimi(6) - 20
tadhimi-tom,,(6)takadhimitom,(6)ta-takadhimi(5) - 17
dhimi-tom,,(5)tadhimi-tom,(5)takadhimi(4) - 14
And doing it in reverse order may have better effect in this case.
that might pass for a similarity in reduction - preserving the takadhimi in all 3 in some form - giving a 3 to add to pURvAnga everytime.
Otherwise what you suggested - I don't know if it passes for convention, but that is the tongifying in mid air as you have one kARvai preceding a silent trISra conversion. You do have one kriya in the second 7 anchoring on a beat i.e dhin - might help grab the tALAM correctly.
You might just reduce the last kArvai to 3 from 4 and do a tadhiginatom(5) thrice as well!
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
^
Thanks a lot for the detailed reply , Shankarank !
|| ta dim - - | - ta ka dim | - - - ta | ki ta dim - |
| - ta di gi | na tom ta di | gi na tom ta | di gi na tom ||
PS : Correction from my previous post ( unfortunately can not edit anymore ):
Thanks a lot for the detailed reply , Shankarank !
I also thought about that ( if we speak about the same procedure ), but then the kArvais will not remain equal : Between the first 2 palas and the 2nd and 3rd palas of the purvanga I have 3 kArvais , but between purvanga and uttaranga there are 2 kArvais . I don´t know if that would be correct , or maybe it could pass as an aesthetic ( lakshya ) Korvai ...?You might just reduce the last kArvai to 3 from 4 and do a tadhiginatom(5) thrice as well!
|| ta dim - - | - ta ka dim | - - - ta | ki ta dim - |
| - ta di gi | na tom ta di | gi na tom ta | di gi na tom ||
For the remaing 18 matras of the uttaranga I would then use : tadin - ginatom - ( 6 ) x 3 .dhimi-tom,,(5)tadhimi-tom,(5)takadhimi(4) - 14
For the remaing 15 matras of the uttaranga I would then use : tadiginatom - ( 5 ) x 3 .tadhimi-tom,,(6)takadhimitom,(6)ta-takadhimi(5) - 17
Here it gets tricky because I only have 12 aksharas left . So I would get into tishra gati and do : tadin - ginatom - ( 6 ) x 3 . ( 12 aksharas in chatushra transposed into 18 aksharas in tishra )takadhimi-tom,,(7)ta-takadhimitom,(7)kiTa-takadhimi(6) - 20
PS : Correction from my previous post ( unfortunately can not edit anymore ):
I meant 14 matras .Calculating for the uttaranga I saw that I only had 14 aksharas available ,
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Lakshya korvai from Pazhani school :shankarank wrote: ↑04 Nov 2018, 22:32But from a meta-physical angle, this is not a violation of Math, as the tinkering is done in silence ( pun intended ). Tinkering is possible only because there is a definite Math in there to begin with. It is to be taken as transcending grammar to attain a lakshya and not deliberately protesting against the grammatical order , as leftists would have it . The former is truly an Indic perspective!mridhangam wrote: ↑10 Aug 2018, 09:43 8(4)8(4)8(3) as Purvanga 9(1)9(1)9 as utharanga ...if i write this in numbers anyone can identify that there is a mistake but while playing the 3 karvai at the end of Purvanga can hardly be perceived as a mistake in the flow ...
The 3 is the all familar "taangu" I gather or if you are shifting to a triSra naDai - "tongu" !
And would you be kind enough to share the pazhani lakshya kORvai , something I have heard , but forgot what it is.
(P)tha . dhi . thajum- dhi. thajum- thajum- jum-(U)tdgntom-tdgntom-tdgntom//
The order is 7,5,3,2 and then 15.
Mannarkoil J Balaji
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Actually this korvai could have been stopped with 7-4-2;5-4-2;3-4-2 and utaranga as 31 ...shankarank wrote: ↑04 Nov 2018, 23:29 Another example on those lines where there is a lakshya / lakshana pair would be in a total of 64:
7-4-2, 5-4-2, 3-4-2&1 (this is the taangu)- 5-5,5-5,5-5
where 7-4 is formed as ta,ti,tathom(7) - 4-2 as dhin,ta,thom. The pURvAnga has a reduction as ta,ti,tathom -> ti,tathom -> tathom in the three sections.
13 + 11 + 9 + 1 = 34 and uttarAnga is 30.
The reckoning of the last kArvai as (3) is done to get around the prime divisibility issue arising from 33 & 31 - where 31 does not afford the 30 & 1 division for any correct execution of a pattern thrice. Mathematically correct uttaranga will require a 31 = 27 +4 -> 9(2)9(2)9. But why give up an opportunity for the nearest divisible multiple of 3 - i.e. 30, if it can be handled with an artistic sleight of hand!?
So Math is somewhat very much in play!
Why add that 1 at the end ? Is there a logic ?
Yesterday i was speaking with a friend of mine where a reducing pattern was going as 7(2)(6(2)5(2)4(2)3(2)2(2)1 and 3 as a bridge between P and U and the Utaranga as 3 * 7
Purvanga
tkdm tkt tha .
tkt tkt tha .
tk tkt tha .
tkdm tha .
tkt tha .
tk tha .
ta (thaangu)
Utaranga
t.d.gntom
t.d.gntom
t.d.gntom//
I wouldnt personally make such korvais. We call this adjustment. This adjustment can be done if there is no utarangam possible after purvanga logic. since we still can do 22 instead of 21 this korvai cant be accepted according to me.
There is another korvai of the same sort given by a doyen which goes like this and defies a logical pattern:
8 (as dhi . than kt tktrkttk)
8 - 3 3 2
2-8 -3 3 2
4 - 8 - Sort of purvanga end without the logic getting followed
3 3 3
3 3 3
3 3 3
as a middle piece
and then some utaranga idea follows.
We call this Ottu piece
We try to make it like this
8-3 3 3
2-8 -3-3-3; 3 3 3;
4-8- 3 3 3; 3 3 3; 3 3 3; (Making the total to 21 aksharas or 21 * 4)
We can make utaranga accordingly.
Of course i am very well aware that music is beyond science or mere maths, yet a structure makes it crucial for giving it further developments. if one wants to reduce the 3 3 3 to 2 2 3 for the next cycle and 1 1 3, for the 3rd cycle this logical build up gives scope while the earlier one doesnt offer further scope, making it stand-alone korvai which needs to be mugged up. From my experience i can tell that logic gives more scope for on the spot development and with one "aasu" or a foundation a number of varieties could be made.
Mannarkoil J Balaji
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Christian Kenit Ram wrote: ↑11 Nov 2018, 03:17 I have some doubts about constructing permutations in a specific Korvai .
The normal way would of course be to repeat it 3 times without any change , but I have heard the technique that involves rendering the korvai differently for each of the 3 rounds . ( I have heard it for longer , more complicated korvais , but not for the simple , short ones -- hence my question )
|| ta dim - ta | ka dim - ta | ki ta dim - | ta din - gi |
| na tom - ta | din - gi na | tom - ta din | - gi na tom ||
|| ta dim - - | ta ka dim - | - ta ki ta | dim - - ta |
|di gi na tom | - ta di gi | na tom - ta | di gi na tom ||
|| ta dim - - | - ta ka dim | - - - ta | ki ta dim - |
| - - - ta - din | - gi na tom ta - | din - gi na tom ta | - din - gi na tom || ( Tishra Gati for the 2nd half cycle - 24 instead of 16 matras )
The 2nd round is actually the original famous korvai , whereas I have tried to do my own permutations for the 1st and 3rd rounds :
In the 1st round I have used 1 kaarvai instead of 2 for the purvanga , between the phrases . While calculating for the uttaranga I came upon the formula 3 x tadin-ginatom with 1 kaarvai in between the phrases ( 18 + 2 = 20 ) . I don´t remember having heard it before in Adi Talam and don´t know if it´s usual or if it sounds strange ...
In the 3rd round I have used 3 kaarvais instead of 2 for the purvanga .
Calculating for the uttaranga I saw that I only had 14 aksharas available , so I decided to go into tishra Gati , because I don´t know a correct way of fitting 3 Tadiginatoms into 14 aksharas in chatushra Gati . ( Manjunath BC and Somashekar Jois sometimes use change of gati in Korvais . They are among the people that have sparked this curiosity in me ) . I don´t know if it´s correct to use the change of gati only for 2nd half of the 3rd round and if doing tadiginatoms starting 2 matras after the 5th akshara is acceptable in Adi Talam .
Thanks in advance .
I have gone through your post and i have this observation.
Mixing of Gati in korvai is absolutely allowed but i wish the same logic is followed while doing Gati Bheda. (In this example 6(1)6(1)6 as first utaranga and 5(1)5(1)5 as second utaranga comes ... so doing 3 * 7 in tisra gati looks odd.
Instead 4(1)4(1)4 could be done.
To make it interesting since smaller numbers for utaranga wont sound nice i suggest you reverse the entire korvai and render. it would be nice.
Mannarkoil Balaji
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Yes my intent was to project the 7-4-2, 5-4-2, 3-4-2 as the pURvAngam. But the uttarAngam 31 - for some reason people are fascinated by the tadhiginatom pattern. Even though it can be derived as 9(2)9(2)9 , still the 30 is tempting. as 3 *10. The remaining 1 can be asborbed in the last (2) to make (3) as thaangu is what I meant.mridhangam wrote: ↑22 Nov 2018, 10:11Actually this korvai could have been stopped with 7-4-2;5-4-2;3-4-2 and utaranga as 31 ...shankarank wrote: ↑04 Nov 2018, 23:29 Another example on those lines where there is a lakshya / lakshana pair would be in a total of 64:
7-4-2, 5-4-2, 3-4-2&1 (this is the taangu)- 5-5,5-5,5-5
where 7-4 is formed as ta,ti,tathom(7) - 4-2 as dhin,ta,thom. The pURvAnga has a reduction as ta,ti,tathom -> ti,tathom -> tathom in the three sections.
13 + 11 + 9 + 1 = 34 and uttarAnga is 30.
Why add that 1 at the end ? Is there a logic ?
Based on that 8 pattern, here is another one being executed by SrI T.V.G and SrI Suresh assisting him with konnakOl.
https://youtu.be/8y-91PkkeK4?t=113
So for a total of 1-1/2 AvaRta : 64 + 32 = 96. They split it as 48+48 - but then they are fascinated by the presence of 45 , so it becomes 48 +1 for pURvangA, with the last thom (2) becoming thaangu ( 3). 47 is then handled as 45 + 2 -> 15(1)15(1)15.
But it is still possible to handle 48 itself as for example 42 + 6 -> (7)(7)(3)(7)(7)(3)(7)7) -> 6*7 + 6 = 48. In this case the opportunity to use different expression for the two consecutive 7(s) is also there, including vallinam (hard) and mellinam (soft) combo, like: ta-ta-ta-,-tAkiTathom, dhin-dhin-dhin-,-tAkiTathom - thaangu.
So another lakshana - lakshya pair I suppose!
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
I should separately record my view here as to the musical value of thaangu vs actually taking the kORvai on the kriya-samam , after the first 48 in the latest example of the above post.
The thaangu crosses ( or goes over!) the saSabhda kriya and becomes quintessentially Carnatic - as it creates a subtling of a kriya !! Hence it is musically superior to any other form where the uttarAnga hugs the kriya.
kriyAlingana-dOSha-nivAriNi!! A lakshya of karNATaka sangIta is attained!
The thaangu crosses ( or goes over!) the saSabhda kriya and becomes quintessentially Carnatic - as it creates a subtling of a kriya !! Hence it is musically superior to any other form where the uttarAnga hugs the kriya.
kriyAlingana-dOSha-nivAriNi!! A lakshya of karNATaka sangIta is attained!
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Thank you very much for having taken your time to respond , Balaji Sir !
Now I am thinking about which Sollus to use for this phrase ... Diginatom would be my first choice , not sure if correct or the most appropriate :
|| - - di gi | na tom - di | gi na tom - | di gi na tom ||
Would there be other possibilities and would they be compatible with the Tadiginatoms used in the previous rounds ? :
Taginatom , Tadinatom
Takitatom is used very often in other contexts , but I am not sure if it would be compatible with the previous Tadiginatoms .
So simple and logical ! I think I did not have this idea , because I rarely hear Korvai Uttarangams where the phrases have less than 4 syllables .Instead 4(1)4(1)4 could be done.
Now I am thinking about which Sollus to use for this phrase ... Diginatom would be my first choice , not sure if correct or the most appropriate :
|| - - di gi | na tom - di | gi na tom - | di gi na tom ||
Would there be other possibilities and would they be compatible with the Tadiginatoms used in the previous rounds ? :
Taginatom , Tadinatom
Takitatom is used very often in other contexts , but I am not sure if it would be compatible with the previous Tadiginatoms .
Do you mean it should begin with Tadim ( 3 ) Takadim ( 3 ) ... , then Tadim ( 2 ) Takadim ( 2 ) ... and finally Tadim ( 1 ) Takadim ( 1 ) etc ?To make it interesting since smaller numbers for utaranga wont sound nice i suggest you reverse the entire korvai and render. it would be nice.
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
|| ta dim - - | - ta ka dim | - - - ta | ki ta dim - |
| - - t k | d n - t | k d n -| t k d n ||
|| ta dim - - | ta ka dim - | - ta ki ta | dim - - ta |
|di gi na tom | - ta di gi | na tom - ta | di gi na tom ||
|| ta dim - ta | ka dim - ta | ki ta dim - | ta din - gi |
| na tom - ta | din - gi na | tom - ta din | - gi na tom ||
This is how you can reverse the entire korvai and render it.
Mannarkoil Balaji
| - - t k | d n - t | k d n -| t k d n ||
|| ta dim - - | ta ka dim - | - ta ki ta | dim - - ta |
|di gi na tom | - ta di gi | na tom - ta | di gi na tom ||
|| ta dim - ta | ka dim - ta | ki ta dim - | ta din - gi |
| na tom - ta | din - gi na | tom - ta din | - gi na tom ||
This is how you can reverse the entire korvai and render it.
Mannarkoil Balaji
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
Makes sense! The 4(1) thrice with ta-ka-di-na, will sound like an abrupt stop because of lack of extended soft consonants like in tadiginatom-tAM, so better to end with a longer phrased uttarangam. But takadina, works itself out in a continuation of another round.
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani
@Christian Kenit Ram If you are not fixated on maintaining the same kAlam and mixup some higher kAla syllables:
|| ta dim - - | - ta ka dim | - - - ta | ki ta dim - |
| - - tAkiTA(2) | thom - tatA | kiTA(1) thom - ta| thi tAkiTA(2) thom ||
3(1) 4(1)5 = 14
|| ta dim - - | ta ka dim - | - ta ki ta | dim - - ta |
|tAkiTA(2) thom - | ta thi tAkiTA(2) | thom - ta di | - tAkiTA(2) thom||
4(1)5(1)6 = 17
|| ta dim - ta | ka dim - ta | ki ta dim - | ta di tAkiTA(2) |
| thom - ta di | - tAkiTA(2) thom |- ta - di | - tAkiTA(2) thom||
5(1)6(1)7 = 20
Will have a punch as well!
|| ta dim - - | - ta ka dim | - - - ta | ki ta dim - |
| - - tAkiTA(2) | thom - tatA | kiTA(1) thom - ta| thi tAkiTA(2) thom ||
3(1) 4(1)5 = 14
|| ta dim - - | ta ka dim - | - ta ki ta | dim - - ta |
|tAkiTA(2) thom - | ta thi tAkiTA(2) | thom - ta di | - tAkiTA(2) thom||
4(1)5(1)6 = 17
|| ta dim - ta | ka dim - ta | ki ta dim - | ta di tAkiTA(2) |
| thom - ta di | - tAkiTA(2) thom |- ta - di | - tAkiTA(2) thom||
5(1)6(1)7 = 20
Will have a punch as well!