Compositions that reflect contemporary themes.

[cmlover]

no difficulty in singing compound words like "nidAghadattAtrEyakapilavAmadEvadyAsaSukAdivanditapadAmbhOjayugalam"

ha! you are cheating!
It is
nidAgha dattAtrEya kapila vAmadeva dyAsa (?) SukAdi vandita padAmbhoja yugaLaM
(where is the problem singing this ?)

[Sangeet Rasik]

dEvasabhApsarAgandharvavijayaviSishTagAnaprabhavam |
(Who is the creator of excellent music surpassing that of the Gandharvas and Apsaras in the court of the Devas,)
Look at this atrocity. Does it add anything elegant or meaningful (granted it is a poetic hyperbole) to understanding MD.

What is atrocious about it ? It is evocative and poetically appropriate in my opinion. And yes, "devasabhApsarAgandharvavijayaviSishTagAnaprabhavam" is *way* more elegant, compact, and meaningful than the limp phrase you suggest below:

vishiShTam apsaragandharva sangIta tulyaM api atyadhikaM
(It is special. Equivalent to the music of Apsaras and gandharvas. Nay! even more)

Oddly enough, you seem to switch to ordinary prose as and when it suits your opinion. I just told you what the difference is. For example, the use of vijaya and vishishta allows me to alliterate. The omission of unnecessary filler words like "tulyam" makes it much more compact and appealing. In a single word one is able to imagine the scene. On the other hand, the composition has plenty of sections with shorter words.

These are not dry intellectual compositions aimed only at "understanding". They do have poetic flights of imagination.

It honestly seems to me that this argument is for argument's sake! The premise of the argument seems poorly-considered.

SR

[Sangeet Rasik]

no difficulty in singing compound words like "nidAghadattAtrEyakapilavAmadEvadyAsaSukAdivanditapadAmbhOjayugalam"

ha! you are cheating!
It is
nidAgha dattAtrEya kapila vAmadeva dyAsa (?) SukAdi vandita padAmbhoja yugaLaM
(where is the problem singing this ?)

It is vyAsa not dyAsa - typo error.

How am I cheating ? In the same manner, what is the problem singing "devasabhA apsarA gandharva vijaya vishishta gAna prabhavam" ?

SR

[cmlover]

Why don't you write it in that fashion instead of following the old style sanskritic fusion (sandhi).
Howwouldfolksunderstandifwestartwrtinglikethis?

I see your point on the alliteration on vijaya and vishiSHTa. Not being a svarAkShram I am not getting how it helps in the musical parlance?

[Sangeet Rasik]

Why don't you write it in that fashion instead of following the old style sanskritic fusion (sandhi).
Howwouldfolksunderstandifwestartwrtinglikethis?

Because I don't want to mislead people, as you are doing above. When it is a single word, it should be written as a single word (it is nothing to do with "old style" sanskrit). When they are separate words they are written separately.

Instead of writing "sarvavibhaktibhirdivyavibhavansadbhaktiyutahsashamsitavan" (which is analogous to your little example above), I write the individual separate words as they should be written. If anyone has difficulty in following it even after looking at the translation, all they have to do is listen to the recording, wherein the individual words are perfectly clear.

I see your point on the alliteration on vijaya and vishiSHTa. Not being a svarAkShram I am not getting how it helps in the musical parlance?

There is no swarakshara at this particular place. I did not say there was either. My comment about swaraksharas was more general. Overall this word is very suitable for singing in madhyamakala with precise location of the swaras and no elaborate gamakas. This is the desired effect.

Further regarding the words, the use of "devasabha" is critical in conjuring up the scene in the celestial court before it is compared to the subject of the composition. Otherwise the comparison is limp and needs to be bolstered by filler words like "nay! even more!" at the end. It also rhymes with the next two words - devasabha with devaraja, and prabhavam with vaibhavam. Again vaibhavam participates in alliteration (vaiviktyamurtim vedavedantavaidushyavaibhavam). The music is seamlessly integrated throughout with all/most of the critical gamakas of begada raga. There are no "jerks" or "discontinuities".

What I am saying is that the construction follows an overall plan/scheme of things. M. Dikshitar has shown the way in building such "integrated" compositions. Except perhaps for Shyama Shastri, this approach is generally not found in CM. I am not simply imitating what he has done, as my compositions have several different features from his. But obviously there is a reason why I have devoted two compositions to him. Perhaps the greater tribute to Dikshitar is in the way these compositions are constructed, and not only in how the words and music play out.

SR

[arunk]

SR - I enjoyed your begada krithi and your rendition. What stood out to me was some sophisticated weaving of the raga around the words - in the style of many a MD krithi!

Arun

[Sangeet Rasik]

Arun,

Thanks for your comment. Yes indeed, weaving the raga and the words around each other was one of the objectives of this composition. They were composed "together" to a large extent.

SR

[Sangeet Rasik]

Next up is a relatively recent "religious" composition regarding (Pratyangira) Bhagavati Devi. The composition is preceded by a short introduction (in Hindi), for purposes of explaining the basics of the composition as well as for increasing religious fervor and creating "Devi Jagaran" (awakening) among the bhaktas. Rather than paraphrase too many puranic details from Devimahatmyam and other texts, the composition is styled as a combined philosophical-religious-tantrik-exhortative composition. In addition to the appreciation of shastriya sangeet, those persons who are the victims of "durmantravAda" by their enemies should also sing /listen to/meditate upon this composition in order to obtain freedom from the worldly constraints as well as from the designs of evil-doers. Jai dEvi mahAmAyE !

Best Wishes,
SR




“bhagavatyA samrakshitOhamâ€

[Sangeet Rasik]

Come on, guys .... no discussion ??!! Ghora anyaayam !

SR

[cmlover]

Very nice indeed! For a change you have composed on the Devi!
May the Goddess pratyangira devi bless you.
The song is quite melodious. And the sanskrit is easy on the tongue Congrats!
I will get back to you later.

[cmlover]

By the by what is the word 'icikshishE' ? Is it derived from the dhatu 'iSh icchAyAM' ?
Could you also expand the idea of the 'kShaM' mantra?

Found this interesting site

http://www.pratyangirabhagavati.org/about_us.htm

[cmlover]

This is what MD says on the Goddess:

pratyangirA. rAgA: nAdanAmakriya tALA: cApu.
P: pratyangirA bhagavatim sadA namAmyaham prabala sihma vAhArUDhAm
C: nityam shivabhakta varadAm nikhila janAdi nuta nija padAm nitya shuddha
paramAnandAm nija guruguha mOda kumudAm shaktyAdi samUhAkArAm sharabhEsha
mada haraNa caturAm kSityAdi tatvAnta rUpAm kSamkArAnanda vilEpAm

[arunk]

Come on, guys .... no discussion ??!! Ghora anyaayam !

SR

- I was in half mind to ask that in the "other thread" - - although my usual nature intervened at said "dont presume".

I actually tried listening to yours yesterday but sendspace complained that the limit of users or something like that was reached and that I should try later. I then forgot about it. I will listen to it later today

Arun

[Sangeet Rasik]

CML,

Thanks. In reply to your three posts:

"IcikshishE": It is indeed the desiderative verb (atmanepada), but the root is "Iksh" (see). This particular verb can be used as describing "seeing" in general but also has a more specific sense of "seeing" in one's mind/visualizing, not necessarily seeing in physical form. Thus I thought it was more appropriate.

Sanskrit grammar is very convenient for condensing the number of syllables. Instead of saying "Ikshitum ichhAmi" (I desire to see) in 6 syllables, I can say the same thing in 4: IcikshishE (I desire to see). Also, the reduplication of the root in the desiderative verb creates a kind of internal rhyming. In my previously posted composition "candravAsum cintayE" I used reduplication to create rhyme, employing both the desiderative and the perfect tense.

Yes, MD has a short composition on this Devi but there is very little by other composers. Thanks for posting it. On the rare occasions when I compose "religiously", I pick a subject which has not been well covered already in terms of "classical" compositions. In MD's composition he has already covered the "sharabhesha" purana so I skipped it.

"ksham" is the monosyllablic code for the "bija mantra" used to propitiate this Devi by the experts. The full mantra ("aum hrIm ksham bhaksha jvAlAjihvE pratyangirE....") should not be taken lightly and should be wielded only by experts. In case of MD, he usually employs only "hrIm" and "SrIm" mantras in his compositions but in the nadanamakriya composition he does employ "ksham" as well. Interestingly, he has not employed the supreme mantra "aum" in any of his well-known compositions (correct me if I am wrong).

Thanks for posting the link. Informative site run by what appears to be a genuine expert. As mentioned in one of the sections, certain evil-doers may use these powerful techniques for nefarious purposes; however this is not sanctioned by the satvik practitioners.

SR

[Sangeet Rasik]

I actually tried listening to yours yesterday but sendspace complained that the limit of users or something like that was reached and that I should try later.

Oh, sorry. Hope the link works now. You are right. I tested it and sendspace initially gave me the same complaint. SR

[arunk]

I was able to listen to it. Very nice. Am I right in presuming that some of the phrase were intonated in a way to convey bhayankara (or even gambhIra) aspect of the Goddess? I am not sure I have heard this in mayamalavagowla a lot (but then its not like I have heard every major krithi in it!). I mean - usually you have the sombre, meditative feel. This one was different - perhaps a mix of the rasa that lalita can bring?

Apologies if I am mistaken - just commented on my initial gut feel.

Arun

[cmlover]

Thanks SR
It is clever using the desiderative. I agree with Arun that there is a eerie atmosphere in the song which you have captured in MMG which is inherent in nadanamakriya.

I read from another site that pratyangira devi is narasimhi and not shakti ! I believe traditionally in Kerala we consider her as the consort of Siva. Do you remember the sharaba story in that context and pl post since I have forgotten it.

[Sangeet Rasik]

Arunk and CML,

Am I right in presuming that some of the phrase were intonated in a way to convey bhayankara (or even gambhIra) aspect of the Goddess? I am not sure I have heard this in mayamalavagowla a lot (but then its not like I have heard every major krithi in it!).

I agree with Arun that there is a eerie atmosphere in the song which you have captured in MMG which is inherent in nadanamakriya.

You are both partially correct and quite insightful in "reading my mind".

Indeed certain phrases such as "bhayankara" are constructed to convey a more eerie or "occult" mood. Singing it with S...N (second sangati) conveys more "bhayam" than singing with S...S (which is the first sangati).

In the charanam there is a careful sprinkling of a NNK-ish gamaka-laden gandhara at "bhrashTAn", but with special care not to slide back to rishabha which is the classic NNK phrase. Then later I fully display the flat gandhara of MMG at "chiddhi".

In general this composition has all the features of MMG, including a number of tAna-like sancharas, sarali, janta, datu etc prayogas. The fairly fast pace of the kriti also is very suited for MMG and differentiates clearly from NNK (apart from the obvious use of the higher octave, of course). Some unusal features include the use of the madhyama-nishada pair instead of P-S to create a pleasing effect in the anupallavi "...shaktyA mAntrika...". Finally, the use of a long "G M ...(G) R...." at "tavE..." in charanam is the contribution of Bhairav (the northern counterpart of MMG).

In constructing this kriti I paid special attention to differentiate it from MD's "shrinathadi guruguho jayati".

Also several swaraksharas..."suguNasArA..." , "pApAloka...", "mApAdriyai".

SR

[Sangeet Rasik]

I read from another site that pratyangira devi is narasimhi and not shakti ! I believe traditionally in Kerala we consider her as the consort of Siva. Do you remember the sharaba story in that context and pl post since I have forgotten it.

I don't know about the site from where you obtained this information, but as far as I know pratyangira is indeed narasimhI. She did not arise from narasimha (Vishnu) but from Sharabha (Shiva). The story prevalent in south India is that Shiva took the form of a Sharabha (a lion-bird-man) to quell the residual anger of Narasimha but failed, so he generated two Shakti forms (one being Pratyangira) from each of his wings. The Pratyangira (being half-human/half-lion and mounted on a lion) reflected the physical appearance of Narasimha and is hence called Narasimhi, and was successful in appeasing him. Such a Shaiva/Shakta-oriented story is unlikely to be found in the original version of the Bhagavata Purana so it must probably be from some other purana which found favor in Kerala. Those who are experts in puranic details, please correct me/elaborate if possible.

SR

[vasanthakokilam]

SR: I just listened to the song. Very nice and enjoyed listening to it. Yes, it does induce that 'bhayam' feeling. That feeling is enhanced with your sining the flourish at the end of each section, consistent with the bhavam of the piece. I would like to learn more about 'desiderative', but that can wait. We do not necessarily want to turn the discussion to a sanskrit lesson.

When you say it is Matya thalam, I assume this is chathusra jathi matya thalam ( 10 beat cycle )

I feel a certain laya tension in the pallavi line due to the syncopated stress points. That actually goes well with the bhava of the song. The stress that I felt were on 'ga' of bhagavatyA, 'm' of samrakshitOham, 'ya' of bhayankara, 'ha' of mahatyA etc. Based on your thala keeping sound and the notation with the sahitya, it looks like you start the song on the samam.

[Suji Ram]

SR, A very nice, gentle composition. It flows very smooth. I like the notation at "bhayankara" and the effect at "suguNasArAnandavatyA" is superb.
It is indeed meditative and you have sung well.

I see how the sanskrit language changes in terms of words in reference to gender- which is more see in the caranam.

Your introduction in shuddh Hindi was nice to hear.

[PUNARVASU]

Sir,nice composition,nicely rendered.
I find that the structure of the song is different from the conventional ones-the pallavi has 2 Avarthams; anupallavi has 6(normally it is either the same or double-meaning 4 ) and carNam also has 6 and a madyamkAla sAhityam.
Also , you have used the tritIyA vibhakti in the pallavi, anupallavi; and in the madyamakAla sAhitym but not in the caraNam,where you have used sambhOdanam. Normally the same vibhakti is used in the whole kriti.Just some observations. This is the first time I am going through this thread and I listened only to this kriti .
Will go through the thread at leisure and the treasures it contains.Thank you for sharing.
Kindly correct me if I have stated anythng wrong.
Looking forward to more of your compositions.

[Sangeet Rasik]

VK,

When you say it is Matya thalam, I assume this is chathusra jathi matya thalam ( 10 beat cycle ).

I feel a certain laya tension in the pallavi line due to the syncopated stress points. That actually goes well with the bhava of the song. The stress that I felt were on 'ga' of bhagavatyA, 'm' of samrakshitOham, 'ya' of bhayankara, 'ha' of mahatyA etc. Based on your thala keeping sound and the notation with the sahitya, it looks like you start the song on the samam.

Yes, it is caturasra/catasra jati mathya tala (4-2-4).

Yes, the pallavi starts on the samam. Not sure what you mean by "laya tension"...the pallavi is smoothly integrated with the tala. Indeed the beat is syncopated to create a pleasing effect.

SR

[Sangeet Rasik]

Suji Ram,

Thanks!

SR

[Sangeet Rasik]

Punarvasu,

Thanks. I hope you will continue to enjoy the compositions presented herein. As regards your excellent observations:

1) The 2-6 distribution of tala avartanas between pallavi and anupallavi is not particularly unusual. In MD's compositions, often the pallavi and samashticharanam show a similar distribution.

2) You are perfectly correct about the use of different vibhaktis in different sections. In fact, this is one of the literary devices I use to distinguish my compositions from the previous CM composers in Sanskrit. Rather than just have a single verb in the pallavi followed by a series of doxological adjectives/descriptors (in a single vibhakti) in the rest of the composition; I use the charanam to engage in more narrative/philosophical/exhortative(sambodhana) musings. At the end, I revert back to the original vibhakti of the pallavi so that it can be joined back to the first line of the composition.

SR

[PUNARVASU]

Shri SR,
since the MK Sahityam forms a part of the caraNam,which you have composed in sambOdhanm, may I know why you have not used the instrumental singular-twayA or bhavatya-along with it?
SIshTAbhivanditayA kshamkAriNyA | SrIsaccidAnandasvarUpiNyA |
IMHO, the MK Sahityam looks abrupt. I may be wrong. I just wrote what I felt. I am not a scholar.Thank you.

[Sangeet Rasik]

since the MK Sahityam forms a part of the caraNam,which you have composed in sambOdhanm, may I know why you have not used the instrumental singular-twayA or bhavatya-along with it?

The reason is that the MK sahitya is the "last lap" before joining back to the pallavi which supplies both the primary subject (bhagavatya) and the verb (samrakshitoham). In compositions of previous composers it is understood that the charanam links back to the pallavi, i.e. it is ultimately dependent on the pallavi to supply the primary subject and the verb. In the previous compositions, the charanam has no independent existence in the grammatical sense.

In the present compositions, there is a deviation from the previous composers in that I give the charanam a semi-independent existence. That is, some part of the charanam is used for other purposes such as philosophical musings or exhortations. There are complete sentences. But I use the MK to retain the old feature of connection to the pallavi. You can call it a nod to the previous composers. But your suggestion is not at all incorrect, it would be just different.

As for abruptness, even if I had composed the MK sahitya in sambodhana like the rest of the charanam, then one could say that the connection between charanam and pallavi will be abrupt (i.e. the buck gets passed somewhere else ). I think that it takes time to get comfortable with a new style of composition. Back when the "kriti" structure was introduced in the 17th century or so, it must have considered as quite a departure from the old "prabandha" structure.

The other option is to have more than one charanam, with each in a different vibhakti and with a totally independent existence. But I have mostly decided not to do this since I am more drawn towards MD's objective of making succinct musical statements without multiple charanams.

Best Wishes,
SR

[cmlover]

Dear SR

Regarding the 'desiderative' I have the following understanding. Don't take it as nitpicking
First the dhatu is 'IkSh darshanE' (to look/watch/perceive/gaze/....) (not 'ikSh')
To form the desiderative
we leave the vowel out and take the consonant (in this case it is the conjunct consonant 'k+Sh') and the first is reduplicated to ka ka and the reduplicated is changed to the palatal 'ca' and then 'i' is added leading to cikSh and now the vowel 'I' is gunated to get 'E' and finally 's' is added which becomes 'Sh' according to sandhi(after adding 'i' to the sEt root which is true in this case)). Thus you get the desiderative root for IkSh as
EcikShiSh
Hence the first person atmanepada indicative (present tense) is EcikShishE
Thus 'tava + EcikShishE' willl be tavaicikShishE

I would love to hear your view point.

Regarding priyangira being a 'vaiShnavi' I have heard an intersting story which I will share later.....

[Sangeet Rasik]

To form the desiderative we leave the vowel out and take the consonant (in this case it is the conjunct consonant 'k+Sh') and the first is reduplicated to ka ka and the reduplicated is changed to the palatal 'ca' and then 'i' is added leading to cikSh and now the vowel 'I' is gunated to get 'E

CML,

The reduplication for desiderative of roots with initial vowels follows different rules from what you have stated.

In particular, there are 3 roots with an initial vowel that are known to take the desiderative: Iksh ("see"), aS ("eat"), and Ap ("obtain"). In these roots, the special rule is that they reduplicate fully or partially with "i", not "E". No guna.

Iksh ---> Icikshisha (not Ecikshisha)
aS ---> aSiSisha
Ap ---> ipipsa ---> Ipsa (further contracted)

For further reference, including specific construction of IcikshishE and special rule above, please see Macdonnell section 170.2, or Whitney (supplement) p. 10.

SR

[cmlover]

Thanks SR
I just checked those references. You are right. There is no guna!

Here is the story on priyangira:
When Narasimha was uncontrollable the devas prayed to Siva to take control and Siva appeared in the mythical bird/lion form of sharabha. But Narasimha tore him to pieces (according to vaishnava Now Siva entreated the mercy of the ultimate Goddess Lakshmi devi who appeared as priyangira devi and pacified narasimha and that is the origin of LakshmiNarasimha. In fact there is a temple for priyangira devi somewhere in North India. As fas as I know priyangira is not part of the sri Vidya worship. Perhaps a vaishnavite aware of the story can elucidate.

[vasanthakokilam]

SR, CML: For an entirely another interest of mine, let me ask this. Does this 'desiderative' technique result in a lossless compression?

[PUNARVASU]

VK, by 'lossless compression', do you mean compression in the sAhityam without loss of meaning?(Not that I am competent to answer your question; I am only countering your question with another).

[Sangeet Rasik]

VK,

Technically, I think the answer is "no" since the existing reduplication rules for the desiderative are not enough in number (as far as I know) to reconstruct unique roots in all cases. For example:

#1: mR (die) ---> mumUrsha (desire to die). But mRR (crush) also will generate mumUrsha. The only existing rules as far as I know is that R and RR should change to Ur when they follow a labial (thus mUr), and that the reduplicative syllable should change to u (thus mu). Of course, each of these can be understood from the context of the sentence, but if you are talking purely in terms of data compression then there would be some "loss" there.

#2: tRR (cross) ----> titIrsha (desire to cross). But tR will also generate titIrsha. The only existing rules as far as I know is that R and RR should change to Ir when they follow a non-labial (thus tIr), and that the reduplicative syllable should change to i (thus ti).

The example #2 is theoretical in that "tR" does not generate any verbs as far as I know.

However, if one restricts oneself only to roots which have assigned meanings in Sanskrit, I think it should be lossless with a few exceptions like #1 above.

Also, I am not even considering possible confusion with other reduplicated forms like the perfect tense. There could be some "close shaves" there. For instance, "stu" (praise) forms the desiderative tushTUshE in the 1st person singular ("I desire to praise"). The same root forms the perfect tense tushTushE in the 2nd person singular ("you praised"). Almost identical except for the difference of long U and short u.

SR

[cmlover]

From what I know the 'desiderative' and 'frequentative or intensive' are nice ways of expressing desire and frequent/intensive activity. They are liberally used in sanskrit and by being 'sonorous' add beauty to the language. I never thought of them as being a 'short-hand' and have not seen them used widely in musical compositions except (usage of common terms like mumukShu, titIkSha etc.,). The context always brings out he meaning in cases the terms are not unique just as the words with multiple meanings in other languages...

[vasanthakokilam]

SR, CML, Thanks. Punarvasu, I meant it in the sense of reconstructing the original text. And this discussion gives me some ideas to think about. Thanks.

[cmlover]

Dear VK/Punarvasu
While dicussing 'lossless compression' I am reminded of the following anecdote on kalidasa:

Once a shepherd friend (from old times) of Kalidasa was visiting him. He insisted that he should have an audience with the King. Kalidasa wanted to oblige his friend but did not want o get embarrassed. He told him not to open his mouth except to say 'svastirastu' when the King prostrated. He grilled him on that until the poor shepherd got to repeat it somehow. Kalidasa now went to the king and mentioned that his Guru was visiting and wanted to bless him. However since his guru was in the mouna vrata (vow of silence) he may not be able to talk with him. Of course the King was excited to receive the Guru himself of the Great Kalidasa and arranged for a reception with great pomp and show. As the shepherd was being led to the King's presence he was flabbergasted at the show and when the kids seeing the line-up of camels started shouting 'UShTraM gaccati' (here go the camels), he totally forgot what kalidasa had taught him and instead started muttering UShtram gaccati. Finally when the king prostrated before him he muttered in his excitement 'ushaDar'. The king was totally taken aback but contained himself and despatched Kalidasa's guru with due honour. Finally when the dust had settled he beckoned Kalidasa and requested him to explain the mysterious 'ushaDar' blessings. Kalidasa with great presence of mind responded:

'O King! My guru on the mouna vrata could never utter any words but did want to oblige you on my behalf and hence gave a magnificent but condensed blessing:
'u' stands for 'umApati' since Siva by himself is powerless unless accompanied by Sakti.
'sha' stand for shankara which is 'sham karOti iti sha^nkaraH' since he has to be invoked in his mangala svarUpa,
'Da' represents 'DamAra ninAdapANi' which is fully accoutred (dressed-up in his paraphernalia)
'ra' means 'rakShati tvAm n^RipatEshvara' (may He protect you Great King)
Hence fully expanded blessing is:
umApati shankara DamAraninAdapANi rakShati tvAm n^RipatEshvara

The happiness of the King knew no bounds and he profusely thanked kalidasa for the occasion.

[Sangeet Rasik]

Heh heh....good one. Thanks! By the way should it not be "ninAda" not "ninAta" ? "DamaraninAdapANi" would mean "he who holds the DamaraninAda (tumultous drum)". Also do you know what is the source of the anecdote - is it from a medieval commentary/biography of Kalidasa ?

About your earlier story - I assume you meant "pratyangira" not "priyangira" ? What is the etymology of the word "Pratyangira" ?

One possibility is prati-angira, i.e. the goddess who is invoked to counter (prati-) the spells/sorcery of the angiras (a school of Atharvavedic sorcerers).

On the site that you mentioned in the previous page, the Swamiji derives it directly from "pratyanc" (opposite). But I doubt as to how one would add the suffix "-ra" to get "-ngira" (it does not seem grammatically possible).

A third possibility is derivation from "pratyanga" (a weapon or protective device), since the goddess is propitiated as a protection from external attacks using mantras. Again same question about how the "-ira" suffix can possibly occur.

I am trying to see if the etymology reveals anything about the origin. I suspect that "Pratyangira" is an old goddess of the Atharvavedic tantriks and sorcerers, and who at some point got absorbed into the Puranas by construction of some type of fantastic stories.

SR

[cmlover]

Thanks SR, it is ninAda (my typo). Don't know the origin since I heard it from my sanskrit teacher as a child!
I am also racking my brain about the etymology of pratyangira. Since it is from the Atharva veda I am guessing it could be prati+angiras (out of fire)(angiras - fire God). I will ask a tantrist next time I visit Kerala!

You should compose more such nice compositions on deities which I am sure will be picked up by current performers. There is no chance of your teacher or Lalu ever being sung in a concert

[Sangeet Rasik]

You should compose more such nice compositions on deities which I am sure will be picked up by current performers. There is no chance of your teacher or Lalu ever being sung in a concert

Never say never As I have mentioned, I am not interested in promoting my popularity, and I don't expect all of my compositions to be sung in concerts. If somebody picks any composition of mine and sings it, good for them and good for CM. There is a different look at each raga in these compositions and it is different from previous compositions. I can arguably claim them to be of better/as good quality than many which *are* sung today.

Let me also clarify in all honesty that I do not "believe in" any of the Puranic gods or goddesses or in any connection they might possibly create to the Almighty. My interest is really in the Indian philosophy and its spiritual implications, as well as the practical disciplines like tantra and yoga.

No Rama-Krishna-Shiva-Vishnu-Devi compositions from me. There are already thousands. My two "religious" compositions serve the particular purpose of addressing the relative lack of quality compositions on those particular "dieties" who are peculiar to my cultural background. Earlier there was MD's "hariharaputram" and "pratyangirabhagavatIm" and not much else. So my contribution, even if small, is meaningful. The job is done now.

That being said, there are plenty of secular compositions I have composed which are definitely concert-worthy. That is my main focus and it continues to evolve in scope and context. Even if everybody doesn't agree about the "concert-worthiness" of some of my subjects, I think there is something seriously wrong with a cultural mindset that tolerates 3 hours of music about gods/goddesses from puranas of the remote past but feels shy to listen to a composition whose subject is, say, Subhas Bose. But I think this is a problem of temporal nature. The current crop of musicians and CM enthusiasts will be replaced by a next generation, and another after that....

SR

[vasanthakokilam]

I think there is something seriously wrong with a cultural mindset that tolerates 3 hours of music about gods/goddesses from puranas of the remote past but feels shy to listen to a composition whose subject is, say, Subhas Bose.

Taking an opposite point of view to CML and an obtuse one at that:

From a very (raw) practical point of view, I reflected on a recent 3.5 hour concert I attended. Except for a 3 minute period during a viruththam where sahityam was prominent and happened to be in a language I understand, I do not recall the import of the sahityam of any other songs. There was explicit reaction/acknowledgment from the audience for some sahitya words during that piece since they could relate to it. It was a fantastic and enjoyable concert and only the melody and rhythm from that concert is what still stands out. That may be considered a culturally inferior experience since sahitya is the third leg of the three legged CM stool. It is not that the sahityam was in the back seat, it was there right in front with all its sonorous qualities which adds that extra dimension to vocal music. I am just wondering how many others in the audience related to the concert in a similar way.

The point is, the current generation CM audience may not be operating on the mindset of tolerating only the sahityam of gods/goddesses. They may as well tolerate sahityam on other topics as long the melody and rhythm is attractive to them. It is not a question of preference to the subject matter but just possibly indifference ( or even a catholic attitude ) to the subject matter of the sahitya. Stated in another way, if the singer had sung one of your compositions in Sanskrit it would have gone on well with the audience though they may not have realized it is on Subhas Bose. But atleast a subset of the audience would wonder about the new composition and ask the artist about it and then a further subset would have checked the composition to find the full meaning, background and subject matter of the composition. So all the power to you to somehow promote your compositions so current and future generation CM artists sing them in concerts.

[Sangeet Rasik]

There was explicit reaction/acknowledgment from the audience for some sahitya words during that piece since they could relate to it. It was a fantastic and enjoyable concert and only the melody and rhythm from that concert is what still stands out. That may be considered a culturally inferior experience since sahitya is the third leg of the three legged CM stool.

That is exactly correct. The melody and rhythm are two legs. The sahitya is the third. So if one does not enjoy the integration of the three, it is indeed a culturally inferior experience (even though it may still be better than most other cultural options). I might add that many of the compositions posted herein this thread pay attention the rhythm aspects as well - the lack of rhythmic accompaniment in the recordings means that it is not brought out fully. I hope that laya enthusiasts can visualize some of it.

The point is, the current generation CM audience may not be operating on the mindset of tolerating only the sahityam of gods/goddesses. They may as well tolerate sahityam on other topics as long the melody and rhythm is attractive to them. It is not a question of preference to the subject matter but just possibly indifference ( or even a catholic attitude ) to the subject matter of the sahitya.

Could be. But if that was the case, I wonder why there was a bit of an uproar when I started a thread on "secular themes" and I wonder why some rasiks try to convince me that nobody will sing such a composition. I think that the current generation audience may be indifferent to the sahitya because (a) It is all "religious" in nature, so what difference does it make. (b) Most composers do not integrate the sahitya with the music. (c) Musicians do not communicate with the audience.

I think if the sahitya is new, it is explained properly, and its integration with the music is shown, then it creates a better appreciation of art. The Sanskrit language and its words are powerful, and the professional training of musicians should pay attention towards singing those words with power and conviction and precision. The current crop of CM musicians is not trained in this manner.

CM is not popular culture, and if we treat it like one (i.e., if people behave as though they have no time to appreciate the finer points and need some quick entertainment) then it is no surprise that it can never rise to true excellence in all aspects.

An overarching problem is that there are too many people making a living out of CM, who are therefore constrained by the "vox populi" (whether real or imagined). They do not want to rock the boat if everything is going along all right. There are not enough people who produce quality compositions without worrying about how it will affect their bank account.

SR

[vasanthakokilam]

I think that the current generation audience may be indifferent to the sahitya because (a) It is all "religious" in nature, so what difference does it make. (b) Most composers do not integrate the sahitya with the music. (c) Musicians do not communicate with the audience.

Speaking only for myself, I am training myself to pay attention to the meaning of the sahitya over the past few years, mainly due to the association with fellow rasikas here. The following is how I view the integration of sahitya with melody and rhythm. Even without understanding the meaning,

a) the alignment of words and stress points with the thala provides me one level of such integration.
b) The riding of the melody contours over the words provide the next level.
c) The third level of course is the understanding of the meaning and integrate the sahitya anubhava, raga anubhava and laya anubhava ( so to speak ). I agree with you that such an experience is quite fruitful to a rasika.

Having said that, in practical terms, Sanskrit, immensely fascinating it is, is not that easy to understand when a musician sings a sanskrit composition. It sounds nice from a) and b) point of view. That is what I tried to convey in my previous post that a lot of CM concert goers will be perfectly happy with a Sanskrit composition of yours in a secular theme since it provides them with enjoyment at a and b level. That is a way to get into the 'game'. Then you may get a subset of people who rise to your expectation of cultural sophistication to enjoy the composition at the level you expect.

Back to my own case, I have had a few cases of such integrated experience and the 'core' subject matter even in the religious context is not that religious at all. For example, I have read up on the meaning of Thyagaraja's song 'entani nE varNintunu Sabari bhAgyam' in Mukhari. There is no doubt about the religious context but I relate to it as an expression of fascination at the luck, blessedness and opportunity Sabari had in serving Rama. That emotion carried over the Mukhari bhava is an integrated experience for me. A lot of T's compositions provide for me such human context behind such religious themes.

Another clear example of relating to a sahityam with music is that viruththam I mentioned earlier. Since it was in a language I understood, no prior preparation was necessary. I have probably read the words of that before and probably have heard somebody recite it but it never meant anything. But when it was sung with music ( only melody in this case ), it just sunk in deep. The subject matter was about what kind of friendships and relationships one should develop. Somewhat religious but a lot of secular and human context can be attached to it.

The point of all this is, I consider myself a somewhat serious listener, probably in the 45 percentile of the concert going audience and I can deal with and prefer, fairly abstract concepts in the sahitya ( religious or secular ) if it is in a language I readily understand. The rest of it, I can enjoy for other aspects, 'a' and 'b' above, the non-meaning related integration of sahitya with melody and rhythm.

That is what you are probably dealing with in terms of the CM audience. Culturally sophisticated but not to the level you expect. I am sure there are numerous rasikas in that category but my guess is it is a smaller number. I would not necessarily classify the difficulties along the lines of the three reasons you provided. They are all true to some extent but if people do not understand the sahitya readily, where is the chance of going beyond 'a' and 'b' to that grand integrated experience you speak of?

[Suji Ram]

Very good post VK
Your lines on human context behind religious themes are so true- and that emotion !

Rasikas do evolve into category 3 over time. Not sure if musician's interaction with audience can speed this process..

As a learner of this art- religious, philosophical or otherwise the whole experience of language , bhava, raga, tala takes another dimension !

[PUNARVASU]

VK,
s Suji Ram said, rasikas will evolve into the 3rd category-
over a period of time- because as one ages ones perceptions, expectations,needs etc change-a young rasika , who is a serious student of music, may not care for the emotions the sahitaym creates; he/she is so much carried away by the intellectual challenge it provides. But over a period of time the same rasika, will defintely be moved by the sahityam. It also depends on the sorroundings-meaning the family atmosphere etc;if they are conducive, it may happen earlier than if they were not; still age is an important factor. As and when it happens, the same rasika who was thrilled by the 'fireworks' on stage, would rather have sedate music.
This applies to the PERFORMERS also, I think.
Being part of group ,like this, also helps, I feel; becuse of the various discussions going on, whether willingly or unwillingly the young rasika is exposed to such discussions and it may bring about the transition to category 3 faster.
Each of us goes to a concert with different expectations; some of us like certains ragas, compositions, composers and if we hear any of them we are so happy. and if we do not hear any of them we are disappointed. I have heard people say, 'enna sir, kambhoji ragam pAdarapOdu, O rangassAyi' pAduvAr endru pArthEn, EmAttiTArE'.In the bargain, they failed to enjoy the 'Emayya rAma ' he sang!
Where as , some people go without any 'hidden agenda' ,so to say, and derive plesure at what the performer gives.
I feel, most of us start as category 1 or a as you said, but over time will defintely evolve into ctegory 3 or c as Suji Ram sid.

[PUNARVASU]

Take Bharatiyar's songs for example; many of them are 'dEshabhaktippAdalgL'; set into proper tunes they are enjoyed by one and all-of course becuse of the language. In fact while listening to such songs, since the words are so powerful, the music itself takes a back stage. But such a thing may not happen in Sanskrit composition bec. many do not understand the language. This is what director KB tried to show in his film 'Sindhubhiravi'.

[Sangeet Rasik]

VK and Punarvasu,

The "grand integration" is already in the composition, the question is regarding how to help the rasiks understand the composer and the art. I generally agree with the idea that many of the rasiks will evolve into the "3rd category" over time. That being said, one can facilitate things further. Handing out a sheet of paper with the sahitya and English/other translation costs next to nothing. For example in many opera concerts they hand out the English translations of the Italian compositions, or they are available online both for the benefit of the audience and the singers themselves. Secondly, the number of compositions performed is too many in my opinion. Instead of 5-6 compositions, one frequently has 10-15 pieces in a typical kacheri, which creates a level of superficiality. Typical concert reviews also reflect this.

SR

[cmlover]

This composition is an expression of my love and regards and perhaps of other

thousands of SwAthiprEmis who are now turning to his rightful descendant Prince

Rama Varma (affectionately Varmaji for us)to recreate the CM magic of the truly

great enlightened and one and only Maharaja of CM. The composition is in

MaNipravALam (mixture of sanskrit and malayalam) in a raga which I would have

loved Maharaja to have composed with his equal expertise in HM. I beg your pardon

if you could not get the raga

Here is the lyric:

P|| syAnanda puratthinRE vAsi
Sri padmanAbhanRE nEshi

A|| sangita shastra vishvAsi
sArvajanika h^Rit bhAsi

C1|| rAjakula tilakamAyirunnu
rasika mana^NgaLE bharikkunnu
Sri vanci nATTinRE putran
Sri padmanAbhanRE dAsan (avan)

C2|| kuthira mALika ennoru koTTAraM
ahO ennoru sa^Ngitam kETTAruM
navarAtri maNDapamum kANaNE
aviDE nAthanRE gItaM kELkkaNE

C3|| svAthi rAjan enna dhIran
vINDuM ashvathi rAjanAyi janicchu
navalOkam rasika h^Rit udbhavicchu
sa^Ngita sAmrAjyam bharicchu (vINDuM)

Free translation
He was the resident of Thiruvanthapuram. He was the beloved of Lord Sri

Padmanabha.
(Note: The princely State of Travancore was dedicated to Lord Sri Padmanabha by

the former King MArthANDa varma and all the successors governed the kingdom from

Thiruvananthapuram as His faithful servants (dAsas))

He was a firm believer/adherent of the science of Music and he was resplendant in

the hearts of his people.

He was the ornament of the Royal clan as also he rules the minds of Rasikas. He

was the choice Son of Travancore (sri vanchi nADu). He was the servant of Lord Sri

padmanAbha (see note above)

There was a palace (of his) named kuthira mALika. What a wonder it is to hear the

music therein! One should also visit the navarAtri maNDapam and hear the music

performance of his kritis. (Herein I am also referring to the soulful melodious

performace of Varmaji regularly in thesee locations).

That was the valiant King named SWAthi (indicates the star he was born). He has

come back (reincarnated) as Ashvathi (thiruNAL) (our dear varmaji!). He is

recreating a musical paradise again in the hearts of CM Lovers. He rules (as he

did) the Musical Empire!
(Do note all descriptions fit both the Maharaja and varmaji equally well!
This is a two-in-one

Here is the audio link
http://rapidshare.com/files/164425688/S ... a.mp3.html

Comments welcome!

[cmlover]

If you have a problem with rapidshare try this
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=4a88 ... b9a8902bda

[arasi]

(a la aLi vENi):
rasikAsil ettanai vidhamAna gItangaL!
pAril ahO bahu bhAgyavantarE yAm
sankEtiyuDanE, maNipravALamum AchchE-rasikAsil ettanai

Great CML!
You have also carefully chosen musique4ever's pic to go with the great composer's...

[cmlover]

Arasi
I fully agree that MaNipravALaM should be recognized as a legitimate language for CM compositions. Even MD did an experimental composition. But Maharaja Swati is the one who fully exploited its beauty. I wonder why the present day composers do not take note of it. It is like Interlingua or Esperanto which is quite viable in Europe even today. Perhaps with your versatility in Kannada and Tamil you should attempt some experimental compositions. Again Hindi/Tamil/Sanskrit will be a nice combination too that will promte national unity!

By the by are there any takers to guess the raga? I thought VK/Arun/Suji/SR/... would try....